I didn't just have it as the graph, since without source the graph is useless and people are more inclined to believe it if they see it's from an actual well known website (MKM)
If you're going to post inane comments, please get it right.
well the poster about the price was semi right. personally, i've never heard of MKM,but i'm guessing its the EU place for pricing.
TCG low-mid does have legion's initiative has it around high $9-10.50 and going down. it's still around the $11 price point.
i use mtgprice.com to get a look at US pricing from lot's of sources
Legion's Initiative in Boros just isn't as good as Boros Charm. If you are just trying to avoid sweepers, play Charm. Legion's Initiative is good for abusing ETB triggers. If it has a home, it's in Naya Mid.
The only exception I see is a janky Wojek Halberdiers deck that just plays all the R/W cards to abuse the anthem effect. Probably will never be Tier 1, but could be fun at FNM.
The aggro strategy is worse than Naya Blitz, Jund Aggro, and even mono red. The midrange strategy is worse than Jund, Junk Reanimator, and Prime Speaker.
Since when crusades have not been good in weenie strategies? Legion's Initiative is an anthem card first and foremost, the team blink is just nice bonus on the top.
Except it's not as good as past anthems because it's too conditional. Would you play it after a Champion of the Parish to make it a 1/2, or one of the million good 2-drops in the format?
2 mana anthems are pretty bad in this format because there are so many good creatures to play instead. The blink effect is the only reason this card is good -- your evaluation of this card is backwards.
Well, considering that all 3 of the creatures you listed are pretty much unplayable in standard, I'd say you are pretty far off the mark. This is the competitive section. Foundry Street Denizen has no place here. All you fancy numbers are fun until someone plays a Loxodon Smiter. Oops!
Playing Legion's Initiative in this way locks you into playing awful creatures. That's exactly why it's a bad choice for this deck.
Viashino with a Legion's Initiative onboard is a 3 mana 5/5 with haste. That will see constructed play. Following up with an indestructable 3/3 Tajik is certainly far from bad.
These cards will all 3 see play. They won't warp the format but you should certainly be prepared to deal with them at FNM or wherever because you could easily lose to those plays if you don't have the proper removal suit.
That said, Legion's Initiative fits better in midrange.
Legion's Initiative in Boros just isn't as good as Boros Charm. If you are just trying to avoid sweepers, play Charm. Legion's Initiative is good for abusing ETB triggers. If it has a home, it's in Naya Mid.
The only exception I see is a janky Wojek Halberdiers deck that just plays all the R/W cards to abuse the anthem effect. Probably will never be Tier 1, but could be fun at FNM.
while you make some good points, i feel you also miss some of the positive impacts of legions initiative.
1. enchantments are not near as easy to remove as creatures
2. the mana freedom. what i mean by this is starting before your opponets t4 sometimes you have to leave mana avaliable in case they play supreme verdict, with this card on the field you can freely use all of your mana, which an agro deck needs to do
3. the damage- its quite possible that the +1 dmg will add up over time to more then the 4 damage from charm
4. more flexibility- boros charm only affects destroy keywords and damage. if you have initiative in play not only does it render them useless, but cards such as pacifism, oblivion ring, and terminous become useless as well
now im not saying this card replaces boros charm, because charm is clearly one of the best cards in r/w agro. but it certaintly has its own place and uses, and i would definitly at least consider sideboarding it for matches agianst board control players.
If my example critters can kill you stone dead exceedingly fast through resistance, how are they bad? Denizen and Halberdier easily beat for above curve amounts of damage and are just basically additional copies/interchangeable with Rakdos Cackler and Gore-House Chainwalker (both proven playable cards). Firstblade is 3 mana haste dude that attacks for 4, that's is one of the best rates in standard when you want to get someone from 20 to 0 as fast as possible. As for Smiter, who cares? Just kill/trade with it, and continue as per your deck's gameplan. Fast Loxodon Smiter is slightly annoying yes, but sometimes you have to deal with slightly annoying cards in a game of Magic, that said it's certainly not something that crushes beatdown decks.
If you are going to critize legion's initiative, at least come up with some actual flaws in the card or strategy that builds around it, instead of trying to come up with single card "roadblocks" that roughly one or two decks play in the format.
I'm not criticizing the card, I'm criticizing the way you want to use it. I get that weenie decks are desperate for an anthem, but this card is not great as an anthem. It pigeon-holes you into playing certain cards that are just not great. This cards power comes from the blink effect, which is best abused in decks like Naya mid range. In any case, there's no point in arguing it when I'm proven right by the first round of tournament results. IF this card shows up, it will not be in some weird Boros homebrew, it will be in Naya midrange as a 1-2 of.
We will be seeing about that indeed.
Playing Initiative in some random naya midrange with the purpose of blinking huntmaster and thragtusk on turn 6 or w/e (which isn't even that impressive play anyways) and not building to take advantage of the crusade side is fundamentally poor deck construction and leads to the card feeling lackluster. If blinking alone is so powerful, people would have already incorporated cards like cloudshift and Ghostly Flicker into their decks. Yet Resto is the only blink card seeing play since it actually does things beyond just blinking a dude.
i really think you guys both have a point, because this card really works in both. while it may seem lackluster to blink one thrag, what if you blink a huntmaster, a resto, and a thrag and then the resto coming into play lets you blink the thrag again... can really make some sick combo's. i feel naya will be less useful tho bc green cards get no bonus
I think Viashino Firstblade is not as bad as you think it is. a hasty 4/4 dude is a cool thing indeed. Depending of your initial battle plan, it can be messy for your opponent or not.
Supposing you have a Legion Loyalist on the first two turns and another creature; Viashino Firstblade comes as a hasty 4/4 with trample and first strike, which I think is fearsible. Even in turn 4, paired up with Silverblade Paladin is monstruous.
We know is better to play a Loxodon Smither, but this is for boros. I like the boom that viashino makes on board. And basically, what will make Batallion work better are hasty dudes, and this one starts up with a serious body. 3rd or 4th turn Tajic is not something that changes the board presence or state, but next turn is pretty simple to play Legion Loyalist and Viashino Firstblade from nothing, and deal 12 damage. Having Tajic in order to alpha strike the next turn after Supreme Verdict shows up, and then making this can be pretty fearsible, if not a gg.
I don't think those cards are bad, but nowadays there are better things on their spots. I like the idea of a boros mid-range rather than weenies, with some quick and unexpected strikes. It seems WoTC plan was that for Boros in standard when Theros appears: not like weenie tactics, but hasty mid-range surprise attacks. It can totally work.
Now, think about the above and then tell me I don't get this card or that it's not good.
Sure, I will. You don't get why that card isn't good, and what you outlined there is optimistic to the point of being laughable. I think part of the problem with the Magical Christmasland scenarios you're outlining there is that you're not taking into account anything a semi-conscious opponent with a decent deck would do. You're taking a card that you *want* to be good and trying to force it into a deck you *hope* will be good, instead of actually, y'know, playtesting and analyzing, like good competitive players do.
My group tested Legion's Initiative, it's not as good as other things in that slot, hence a poor choice. It's not a bad card, like One With Nothing bad, but it's not a good choice for a deck that's designed to win a competitive tournament... y'know, what the point of this forum is.
Legion's Initiative is a card that was created to aid aggro decks, was touted by some as an "affront to control", and overall, the response has been that it does not aid the overall gameplan of these decks at this time. After all, sacrificing a turn to cast a conditional anthem effect is a turn that can be used to cast Lightning Mauler, Ash Zealot, Burning-Tree Emissary, and even a better "anthem" effect in the form of Mayor of Avabruck.
Is it ironic that I think this card may actually be a beneficiary to midrange/control?
I have found this card quite useful on defense. The +0/+1 to white creatures is not irrelevant; a majority of aggro creatures are 3/x after a mayor boost, which a 3/4 Centaur Healer can now bar from attacking. A 3/5 Restoration Angel can wall a Loxodon Smiter and a Geist of Saint Traft token. 1/2 spirit tokens are sturdy at holding the fort against a 3/2 for a 1-to-1 trade. And Reckoner as a 4/4 is always nice.
Legion's Initiative is a card that was created to aid aggro decks, was touted by some as an "affront to control", and overall, the response has been that it does not aid the overall gameplan of these decks at this time. After all, sacrificing a turn to cast a conditional anthem effect is a turn that can be used to cast Lightning Mauler, Ash Zealot, Burning-Tree Emissary, and even a better "anthem" effect in the form of Mayor of Avabruck.
Is it ironic that I think this card may actually be a beneficiary to midrange/control?
I have found this card quite useful on defense. The +0/+1 to white creatures is not irrelevant; a majority of aggro creatures are 3/x after a mayor boost, which a 3/4 Centaur Healer can now bar from attacking. A 3/5 Restoration Angel can wall a Loxodon Smiter and a Geist of Saint Traft token. 1/2 spirit tokens are sturdy at holding the fort against a 3/2 for a 1-to-1 trade. And Reckoner as a 4/4 is always nice.
I have a feeling this will be tested at some point with a modest degree of success, if not more.
They don't seem like crazy or unthinkable scenarios at all. Many persons have pointed out the benefit from this with ETB creatures, and actually, the effect can be devastating for the opponent. It is also something that can help you to gain more board precense, survive, or anything. Also, as Naya Midrange is right now, you can simply play it from your hand and exile all your stuff, so you automatically get the benefits. This is a little example of creatures in naya which would benefit from this, and they are all Ravnica block.
I think Naya Midrange was viable before DGM was released; I played it with modest success over MTGO and usually did well against all forms of aggro and Jund, but have a hit-or-miss relationship with Junk Rites (we are dogs pre-board, favorites post) and are usually the aggressors against any control deck that can fire off a large Sphinx's Revelation.
That said, Legion's Initiative provides a valuable tool against Junk Rites; being able to respond to Angel of Serenity's exile is extremely useful, especially Game 1. Against control decks, it is obvious protection against board wipe and a way to conduct alpha strikes for the win.
But this makes Legion's Initiative a strange case, indeed. I feel like it was designed to be "an anthem with incidental blink", but I think it will see play as "a seal of Ghostway with incidental P/T boosts."
I think Naya Midrange was viable before DGM was released; I played it with modest success over MTGO and usually did well against all forms of aggro and Jund, but have a hit-or-miss relationship with Junk Rites (we are dogs pre-board, favorites post) and are usually the aggressors against any control deck that can fire off a large Sphinx's Revelation.
That said, Legion's Initiative provides a valuable tool against Junk Rites; being able to respond to Angel of Serenity's exile is extremely useful, especially Game 1. Against control decks, it is obvious protection against board wipe and a way to conduct alpha strikes for the win.
But this makes Legion's Initiative a strange case, indeed. I feel like it was designed to be "an anthem with incidental blink", but I think it will see play as "a seal of Ghostway with incidental P/T boosts."
Indeed, the blinking can provide useful answers and some ETB tricks, I really liked the examples you mentioned.
I would also like to add that it might be somewhat useful for R/w aggro variants. For those who dislike how Hellrider dies when sent to the red zone against thrag (or its baby)/resto/healers/loxodons (yes, I know, after already making some pinging damage so still useful), firemane avenger is now a 4/4 flyer that does not need to be scared of resto, ash can go in against thrags without her stonewright pal, and reckoner, well, becomes even more annoying.
Having a single list top with some number of X card in their 75 doesn't mean the card is "good."
It does, in fact, look to be the weakest link in the main board and could have been a number of other things (such as more Ghor-Clan Rampager.)
If topping lists consistently run this card, I'll be more inclined to say the card is playable. But at the end of the day, it is a dual-color Gray Ogre.
I don't see Boros doing very well without being allied with another color like Green or Black. Which leads to naya aggro or aristocrats.
Also, if you're going to post a screenshot, please crop to the relevant graphic.
well the poster about the price was semi right. personally, i've never heard of MKM,but i'm guessing its the EU place for pricing.
TCG low-mid does have legion's initiative has it around high $9-10.50 and going down. it's still around the $11 price point.
i use mtgprice.com to get a look at US pricing from lot's of sources
The only exception I see is a janky Wojek Halberdiers deck that just plays all the R/W cards to abuse the anthem effect. Probably will never be Tier 1, but could be fun at FNM.
The aggro strategy is worse than Naya Blitz, Jund Aggro, and even mono red. The midrange strategy is worse than Jund, Junk Reanimator, and Prime Speaker.
Except it's not as good as past anthems because it's too conditional. Would you play it after a Champion of the Parish to make it a 1/2, or one of the million good 2-drops in the format?
2 mana anthems are pretty bad in this format because there are so many good creatures to play instead. The blink effect is the only reason this card is good -- your evaluation of this card is backwards.
Playing Legion's Initiative in this way locks you into playing awful creatures. That's exactly why it's a bad choice for this deck.
These cards will all 3 see play. They won't warp the format but you should certainly be prepared to deal with them at FNM or wherever because you could easily lose to those plays if you don't have the proper removal suit.
That said, Legion's Initiative fits better in midrange.
while you make some good points, i feel you also miss some of the positive impacts of legions initiative.
1. enchantments are not near as easy to remove as creatures
2. the mana freedom. what i mean by this is starting before your opponets t4 sometimes you have to leave mana avaliable in case they play supreme verdict, with this card on the field you can freely use all of your mana, which an agro deck needs to do
3. the damage- its quite possible that the +1 dmg will add up over time to more then the 4 damage from charm
4. more flexibility- boros charm only affects destroy keywords and damage. if you have initiative in play not only does it render them useless, but cards such as pacifism, oblivion ring, and terminous become useless as well
now im not saying this card replaces boros charm, because charm is clearly one of the best cards in r/w agro. but it certaintly has its own place and uses, and i would definitly at least consider sideboarding it for matches agianst board control players.
I'm not criticizing the card, I'm criticizing the way you want to use it. I get that weenie decks are desperate for an anthem, but this card is not great as an anthem. It pigeon-holes you into playing certain cards that are just not great. This cards power comes from the blink effect, which is best abused in decks like Naya mid range. In any case, there's no point in arguing it when I'm proven right by the first round of tournament results. IF this card shows up, it will not be in some weird Boros homebrew, it will be in Naya midrange as a 1-2 of.
i really think you guys both have a point, because this card really works in both. while it may seem lackluster to blink one thrag, what if you blink a huntmaster, a resto, and a thrag and then the resto coming into play lets you blink the thrag again... can really make some sick combo's. i feel naya will be less useful tho bc green cards get no bonus
Supposing you have a Legion Loyalist on the first two turns and another creature; Viashino Firstblade comes as a hasty 4/4 with trample and first strike, which I think is fearsible. Even in turn 4, paired up with Silverblade Paladin is monstruous.
We know is better to play a Loxodon Smither, but this is for boros. I like the boom that viashino makes on board. And basically, what will make Batallion work better are hasty dudes, and this one starts up with a serious body. 3rd or 4th turn Tajic is not something that changes the board presence or state, but next turn is pretty simple to play Legion Loyalist and Viashino Firstblade from nothing, and deal 12 damage. Having Tajic in order to alpha strike the next turn after Supreme Verdict shows up, and then making this can be pretty fearsible, if not a gg.
I don't think those cards are bad, but nowadays there are better things on their spots. I like the idea of a boros mid-range rather than weenies, with some quick and unexpected strikes. It seems WoTC plan was that for Boros in standard when Theros appears: not like weenie tactics, but hasty mid-range surprise attacks. It can totally work.
Weird Idea of the Month (Standard)
RGWNaya Token CommandoWGR
Rate/discuss my decks :D(almost all formats)
Standard
Orzhov Voltron Superheroes
Modern
Infectors
Legacy
UGBack to Square OneGU
EDH
GWURafiq of the Many Wins (1vs1)UWG
Jarad's Turbo Suicidal Squad (Multiplayer)
Pauper
Are you Afraid of Ghosts? You Better Be!
Sure, I will. You don't get why that card isn't good, and what you outlined there is optimistic to the point of being laughable. I think part of the problem with the Magical Christmasland scenarios you're outlining there is that you're not taking into account anything a semi-conscious opponent with a decent deck would do. You're taking a card that you *want* to be good and trying to force it into a deck you *hope* will be good, instead of actually, y'know, playtesting and analyzing, like good competitive players do.
My group tested Legion's Initiative, it's not as good as other things in that slot, hence a poor choice. It's not a bad card, like One With Nothing bad, but it's not a good choice for a deck that's designed to win a competitive tournament... y'know, what the point of this forum is.
Is it ironic that I think this card may actually be a beneficiary to midrange/control?
I have found this card quite useful on defense. The +0/+1 to white creatures is not irrelevant; a majority of aggro creatures are 3/x after a mayor boost, which a 3/4 Centaur Healer can now bar from attacking. A 3/5 Restoration Angel can wall a Loxodon Smiter and a Geist of Saint Traft token. 1/2 spirit tokens are sturdy at holding the fort against a 3/2 for a 1-to-1 trade. And Reckoner as a 4/4 is always nice.
But the main hook: using it on defense will also mean running creatures like Augur of Bolas, Snapcaster Mage, Thragtusk, and Angel of Serenity. Blinking two of three of these at once can make for a huge momentum swing. The tricks Angel of Serenity alone can pull with it are quite appealing, and they cannot be replicated by Restoration Angel.
I have a feeling this will be tested at some point with a modest degree of success, if not more.
They don't seem like crazy or unthinkable scenarios at all. Many persons have pointed out the benefit from this with ETB creatures, and actually, the effect can be devastating for the opponent. It is also something that can help you to gain more board precense, survive, or anything. Also, as Naya Midrange is right now, you can simply play it from your hand and exile all your stuff, so you automatically get the benefits. This is a little example of creatures in naya which would benefit from this, and they are all Ravnica block.
Angel of Serenity
Armada Wurm
Bronzebeak Moa
Centaur Healer
Trostani's Summoner
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Foundry Champion
It is like a Restoration Angel with Overload.
Weird Idea of the Month (Standard)
RGWNaya Token CommandoWGR
Rate/discuss my decks :D(almost all formats)
Standard
Orzhov Voltron Superheroes
Modern
Infectors
Legacy
UGBack to Square OneGU
EDH
GWURafiq of the Many Wins (1vs1)UWG
Jarad's Turbo Suicidal Squad (Multiplayer)
Pauper
Are you Afraid of Ghosts? You Better Be!
That said, Legion's Initiative provides a valuable tool against Junk Rites; being able to respond to Angel of Serenity's exile is extremely useful, especially Game 1. Against control decks, it is obvious protection against board wipe and a way to conduct alpha strikes for the win.
But this makes Legion's Initiative a strange case, indeed. I feel like it was designed to be "an anthem with incidental blink", but I think it will see play as "a seal of Ghostway with incidental P/T boosts."
Indeed, the blinking can provide useful answers and some ETB tricks, I really liked the examples you mentioned.
I would also like to add that it might be somewhat useful for R/w aggro variants. For those who dislike how Hellrider dies when sent to the red zone against thrag (or its baby)/resto/healers/loxodons (yes, I know, after already making some pinging damage so still useful), firemane avenger is now a 4/4 flyer that does not need to be scared of resto, ash can go in against thrags without her stonewright pal, and reckoner, well, becomes even more annoying.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55747
I rest my case.
Rest what case?
Having a single list top with some number of X card in their 75 doesn't mean the card is "good."
It does, in fact, look to be the weakest link in the main board and could have been a number of other things (such as more Ghor-Clan Rampager.)
If topping lists consistently run this card, I'll be more inclined to say the card is playable. But at the end of the day, it is a dual-color Gray Ogre.