Knight of Glory used to be a fantastic answer. But, Golgari Charm solves Knight of Glory now. Which is fantastic in terms of card design, bad news for people planning to use Knight of Glory to beat zombies. Golgari Charm also is more effective against us if they plan on using that to kill KiG.
Jund zombies runs a lot of flames of the firebrand for this exact reason.
Another card that is excellent against us.
The list looks perfect, you just made a little typo with my username but thats it
Fixed. Sorry :/
And yeah, I understand that Call makes their removal better. However, without an Intangible Virtue, Spirits are pretty useless against them in terms of racing and trading. I'm thinking that people will be expecting tokens to do the same 1/1 tokens, and thus are going to attempt to hate on that - if they haven't done any research. I don't really want people to be right about this thought.
I feel that while are lists are different, they both are strong. It'll probably depend on what happens at SCG and States, but I'm hoping that I see you compete in it - or seeing you place!
I read a poster say that Arbor Elf isn't as effective or consistent without having access to 12 Forests on t1 at minimum, 14 is 'acceptable' and 16 being good. How do you feel your Arbor Elf has been performing for you - and would you consider going down to 6?
I realize now why you have access to swamps consistently on turn 3 whereas I am getting them around 4. The difference in our mana base is as follows. +2 Woodland Cemetery, -1 Sunpetal Grove, -1 Isolated Chapel. That might be something to look at for me. It allows for more tragic slips and one drop black spells (such as Duress). I didn't feel comfortable running these black mana investments in my sideboard as I didn't feel that they would be reliable enough. Obviously, you are pushing the limits of what the manabase can do - I'm hesitant of this as sometimes that can backfire on you. However, it may be worth the investment.
As a random thought - I don't believe that Curse of Death's Hold warrants a sideboard slot for us. It is just another enchantment to be targeted by Golgari Charm, and I believe that in game 2/3 we need to diversify our spells so that Enchantment hate can't hit us as hard.
I respectfully disagree about the Zombies match-up, I like playing against zombies because I know every line they have and how to deal with everything. I'd say game 1 it's 60/40 us and then g2+g3 its atleast 65/35.
Just curious if you tested. Some of the numbers you've given were exagerations, so not sure how overly optimistic you are being.
If youve tested a lot and it's worked out, great. I do think u have a solid list.
And +1 that running curse in sideboard would be huge spew.
It is really against our gameplan, and the double black mana should not be consistantly reachable when you need it.
My updated list. Decided our matchup pre-board was a lot better against than agro than I realized, and adjusted the list with that in mind. Thragtusk is awsome, and potentailly should just hog up the 5 slot in the main board, but his synergy is lacking. It's the best 5 drop "card" by itself tho and am boarding him in A LOT.
The primal hunter is a test, but seems like his card draw synergizes well with GHM, who is often quite big.. And producing tokens is obviously sweet.
Im not sure on the right ratio between token makers and rootborn defenses to maximize rootborns effeciency.
Lucid - I like your list. I'd make a few note as well though. I'm thinking that Thragtusk should just completely replace Trostani. Thrag is fantastic, and as you said - pre-boarding we have a decent matchup against non-GW aggro. I'm assuming you have Vitu to deal with control? I feel she's useful, very useful - but I'm not sure she's sideboard worthy. I think she's a card you either have to accept mainboard, or not at all. I may be wrong as she beasts out control decks for me all the time.
I'm not sold on Abrupt Decay because I feel that as versatile as it is, it's not worth it.
There is one thing I'd like to bring up though... We need to figure out a way to deal with Thalia. We can fight her with Relentless (for 5 Mana) slip her for two or Decay her or 3. I don't like either of these suggestions. I'd like to bring up the best green removal that we have access too. Ulvenwald Tracker . Should we be considered this card as a sidebar card. This card helps us deal with Thalia, annoying Deathhawks, and other annoying cards. It serves as repeatable removal AND it is a creature. This means that Thalia doesn't affect it, it is pumped via Gavony and Collective Blessing. And it gives us a way to deal with annoying First Strike on humans and it is a green one drop. You can even sacrifice him to kill Thalia - thoughts?
Tracker is a great card for creature decks. He is very good in carrying removal that still synergizes with various creature stuff like champion of lambholt, soul of the harvest, geist-honored monk, and all the stuff you mentioned. He is a favorite of mine. I have been using him in a casual deck that uses slumbering dragon and it's hilarious to fight with that guy! And he absolutely demands removal, so that's something that might be attractive.
I think Thalia is great bane for us.. since 90% of our spell is non creature.. our deck need a way to deal with this chick fast, or it will ruin our gameplan heavily..
after some playtesting, (with list from nerubian),
I want to point that I need 2 Garruk Relentless to cope with some crazy nuts creature the opponent have (huntmaster, nighthawk, thalia, Blood artist, etc). sadly the move can only be executed once..
about Call of the Conclave.. yes, it can make opponent spot removal better.. but if they spent dreadbore to centaur over my walker, or abrupt decay it over virtue.. i will be mostly happy..
but the downside is, sometimes call only deal 3-6 damage, later than that opponent already locked the board with stronger ground creature, so I can only attack with air creature.. and call will be forced to chump block.. i think haunting and lingering souls is far far better in terms of offensive..
about Rootborn Defenses, I hardly have a good time with this card.. I think this can be replaced with something else.. but I dont know what..
-it requires mana open, which we may don't have often if we are planning to ravages against someone's face..
-it didnt make us kill opponent faster.. (unlike rancors)
-it only adds.. resilience.. against a very narrow cards (bonfire, supreme verdict, mizzium mortars).. the most devastating is bonfire though, because the deck able to beat your face after he cast bonfire, while mizzium and supreme are more controllish, so you can manage to not overextending.
-the only decent target to populate in our deck is.. call of the conclave..
the rest of the deck is great, collective blessing is game breaker, walkers are great.. i also prefer primal hunter over vraska.. it adds raw power to the deck..
I heavily need some constructive feedback with this great deck..
Parallel Lives/Growing Ranks– Please don’t lynch me. Yes, creating lots of tokens is cool! PLives takes an initial investment and then doubles our tokens whereas Growing Ranks allows for a small growth every turn with no investment required. However, these are both cards that are traps. You don’t want to spend turn four doing an enchantment that does nothing. If Ranks populated as an ETB it would probably be playable… it doesn’t. Test them, go ahead! But, you’ll probably realize that they weren’t played last standard for a reason! I also, may be wrong and you can post how it works and laugh at me. That’s always fun!
I vehemently disagree with this. Although I would not play Parallel Lives I would definitely play growing ranks. The ability to be able to grow your army without needing to pay mana or play cards is really all kinds of awesome. This coupled with instant token generators give this type of decks ways to fight bonfire. Also the synergy with the two token walkers should not be underestimated. It also makes it easier not to have to over commit into a board wipe.
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage – My favourite card in this deck actually. Is not a terrible 2/2 bear at 2 mana. Her abilities are strong, very strong. She rivals Trostanti in populating (she can do it instantly if you drop her at 6 mana or can do it multiple times a turn if you have the mana). She can also create her own tokens if you topdeck her late game in a board stall. She can be a mana-intensive planeswalker in my eyes. I’ve used her as a three drop before when my hand wasn’t the greatest and starting pumping out populated 3/3 Centaurs the next turn while holding onto cards so that I can my hand stocked if I get swept. It is also an instant speed ability meaning instant blockers and/or mana saved for Rootborn Defense/Midnight Haunting/Gavony Township shenanigans. I love this card.
Why would you love this card but not the enchantment that does it every turn for free? That notwithstanding I agree with you on this one though. He is a excellent mana sink. Getting dudes putting pressure on, forcing the wipe and not costing you cards. Good stuff.
There is one thing I'd like to bring up though... We need to figure out a way to deal with Thalia. We can fight her with Relentless (for 5 Mana) slip her for two or Decay her or 3. I don't like either of these suggestions. I'd like to bring up the best green removal that we have access too. Ulvenwald Tracker . Should we be considered this card as a sidebar card. This card helps us deal with Thalia, annoying Deathhawks, and other annoying cards. It serves as repeatable removal AND it is a creature. This means that Thalia doesn't affect it, it is pumped via Gavony and Collective Blessing. And it gives us a way to deal with annoying First Strike on humans and it is a green one drop. You can even sacrifice him to kill Thalia - thoughts?
I think tragic slip is a fine answer to thalia...
Interesting to test ulvenwald tracker, but im very skeptical. Having a consistent source of removal is nice, but I suspect he's going to die too often before he gets to untap. His body is very fragile and this format has a lot of 1 toughness hate.
There are a lot more cheap threats to our deck that really demand removal (we cant go over the top of ez) than I realized.
Im subsequently beginning to question the 4x mandatory Selesnya charm AND 4x call of the conclave.
With enough mana dorks, having 12 turn 2 plays isn't really necessary. Call is very solid on defense and a solid populate target but he's pretty mediocre on offense. Our powerful starts are all about anthems + spirits. We don't have much removal, so if they are creature based their ground can get gummed up and he cant attack into them by himself (since the majority of our threats are in the air he gets all the ground attention). If they are control they can probably remove him before he does too much damage.
I'm considering "blackening" the mana base and putting a few removal spells main board. The blackening of the mana base really hurts call of the conclave as consistency is already an issue. Considering cutting call altogether and throwing in removal just to test out how it plays out.
I suspect it's the wrong play, but would like to find a way to sneak in main board removal without messing up the high end of the curve.
anyone considering deathrite shaman to this deck? he providing reach we sorely needs, he provide hosers against zombies, frites, snapcaster, flashback spells, mirror (opponent lingering souls).. gain us life against aggro deck.. with puny mana cost of 1.. I've been testing this instead of Vitu Ghazi Guildmage..
Interesting to test ulvenwald tracker, but im very skeptical. Having a consistent source of removal is nice, but I suspect he's going to die too often before he gets to untap. His body is very fragile and this format has a lot of 1 toughness hate.
There are a lot more cheap threats to our deck that really demand removal (we cant go over the top of ez) than I realized.
Im subsequently beginning to question the 4x mandatory Selesnya charm AND 4x call of the conclave.
With enough mana dorks, having 12 turn 2 plays isn't really necessary. Call is very solid on defense and a solid populate target but he's pretty mediocre on offense. Our powerful starts are all about anthems + spirits. We don't have much removal, so if they are creature based their ground can get gummed up and he cant attack into them by himself (since the majority of our threats are in the air he gets all the ground attention). If they are control they can probably remove him before he does too much damage.
I'm considering "blackening" the mana base and putting a few removal spells main board. The blackening of the mana base really hurts call of the conclave as consistency is already an issue. Considering cutting call altogether and throwing in removal just to test out how it plays out.
I suspect it's the wrong play, but would like to find a way to sneak in main board removal without messing up the high end of the curve.
The reason I suggested Tracker over Tragic slip is simply because of this fact - the lists that would run Thalia would not have access to good removal simply for the fact that they are running Thalia. She does not run well with spells and because of this G/W lists tend to avoid running instant/sorcery removal. Tracker helps deal with this matchup, which we have an exceptionally hard time with because of a few relevant combat mechanics, such as double-strike, first strike and trample. Tracker let's us avoid all of these mechanics and lets us trade profitably. Considering he is also a creature that demands removal, you are forcing them to waste removal on a onedrop rather than a good token, Vitu-Ghazi, Trostanti, Thragtusk, GHM. If he isn't answered for he makes himself more than a 1 for 1. Tragic Slip at best can only be a 1-1.
On to the call statement - I can see where you are coming from especially after looking at Believe's list. I believe that this change will really come from looking at the metagame and analyzing where we need to be playing. I don't believe that we should go all-out-aggression as we aren't as fast as some of the other lists. I believe that we need to stabilize against these decks, and the best way to do this is through a good offense. Also, if enchantment removal is at an all time high, Spirits + Anthems lose their value significantly. I feel that Call provides us with a very relevant blocker against specific decks and can easily overpower most creatures if and when the anthem sticks. I believe, and I may be wrong, that to survive we need a good defense to hit the midrange plays.
I do like the idea of running a more 'blacker' base, but I wonder if Slip is the right decision for that. Is it really relevant against the decks that we are going to face? It is fantastic against Falkenwrath Aristocrat! However, Zombies don't care, it doesn't hit Planeswalkers, and we don't have a good (or reliable) way of activating Morbid. I think Sever the Bloodline is a much better card that we don't need to blackening the manabase for, and thus, allows us to be more consistent.
anyone considering deathrite shaman to this deck? he providing reach we sorely needs, he provide hosers against zombies, frites, snapcaster, flashback spells, mirror (opponent lingering souls).. gain us life against aggro deck.. with puny mana cost of 1.. I've been testing this instead of Vitu Ghazi Guildmage..
I've been interested in this card for a long time. I like him, and I have him as a SB card. Although, I don't know if he supports a mainboard slot. Against certain decks however, I side him in and he allows us to have fantastic reach (as you said). He's a boss.
Edit: Sorry about the delay in responding - was doing RtR pre-release stuff. Went Selesnya and opened 2 Loxodon Smiters and Angel of Serenity! Vitu-Ghazi won me a few games and I love her even more. Of course, I think I may just love her art. I want a poster of her.
4 mana and less creatures that is awsome against
Us off the top of my head.
Vampire nighthawk
Silver blade paladin + trample effects
Thalia
Hunt master of the fells
Blood artist
Olivia (thankfully when she activates twice we get to charm her)
4 mana and less creatures that is awsome against
Us off the top of my head.
Vampire nighthawk
Silver blade paladin + trample effects
Thalia
Hunt master of the fells
Blood artist
Olivia (thankfully when she activates twice we get to charm her)
One of the other reasons that I find him good is that game 2 & 3 a lot of players will sideboard out a lot of single-target removal. Thus, he becomes stronger. He's also good against Gravecrawler, Dorks, Enemy Tokens, Elite Inquisitor, Precinct Captain, Champion of Llambholt (before she gets big). It also gives our Centaurs reach to deal with fliers.
Flames of the Firebrand is a serious issue, which is another reason I want to avoid going for 1/1s the majority of the time. I think it's an interesting card to try out that allows us to avoid 'blackening' our mana as you suggested.
Edit: It's also a good one drop in our primary t1 colour. (Sure it isn't the greatest one drop as it requires mana to do things, but it allows him to be untapped whenever we first need him).
It's also good at dealing with Loleth Troll as if they active regenerate we can stop the actual trample damage from hitting us before combat damage (although Morbid Tragic Slip is better).
I think, Rancor, is very relevant in this deck and cant be simply avoided.. it gives us enough pressure without need to overcommited in the board.. midnight haunting + rancor = 2 midnight haunting in terms of damage.. rancor also complement call of the conclave, now 5/3 trample is much2 more better than 3/3 vanilla that can be chumpblocked all day..
Rootborn defense is not that good compared to rancor, IMO, as it is situational and response spell that required 3 mana open (which can be played around with our opponent).. I think the sole purpose of this spell is versus Bonfire of the damned (naya aggro).. because if we dont overcommitted, we can easily get pummeled/outrunned by their creature.. and in that times.. rootborn is really shine..
maybe Im wrong, mostly my opponent in mws is control/ramp deck.. I rarely have chances to fight aggro deck..
Particated in 3 drafts this weekend as Selesnya, Selesnya, and Golgari. Managed to burst, or trade, for ALL components of this deck & sideboard. (Still missing 1x Temple Garden, 2x Overgrown Tomb) Anyone else burst their stuff this weekend?
Particated in 3 drafts this weekend as Selesnya, Selesnya, and Golgari. Managed to burst, or trade, for ALL components of this deck & sideboard. (Still missing 1x Temple Garden, 2x Overgrown Tomb) Anyone else burst their stuff this weekend?
Jealous. No one opened Temple Gardens or Overgrown Tombs. And if they did open a tomb - they wanted it for Junk Zombies
Jealous. No one opened Temple Gardens or Overgrown Tombs. And if they did open a tomb - they wanted it for Junk Zombies
Went undefeated until the final, but it was 5am and my opponent and I were drunk and I was tired so we shook on a draw, quit, and slip 1st place prize. it was pretty eventful.
3x duress
2x Sundering Growth
2x Sever the Bloodline
3x Centaur Healer
3x Rootborn Defense
2x Vitu Ghazi Guildmage
centaur Healer over thragtusk because of curve i think.. it drop 2 turn(s) faster than tusk.. providing great body against the likes of gravecrawler, ghoul, rakdos cackler..
duress against control (mutilate, terminus, cyclone rift).
sundering growth against Curse of death's hold,
Vitu Ghazi guildmage is fantastic against control
Rootborn defense, well, I only run this against Bonfire deck / Supreme Verdict Deck..
what do you guys suggest about the sideboard?
I currently running on nerubian's list, but I cut Vitu Ghazi for deathrite shaman, and rancor over Rootborn Defense..
Particated in 3 drafts this weekend as Selesnya, Selesnya, and Golgari. Managed to burst, or trade, for ALL components of this deck & sideboard. (Still missing 1x Temple Garden, 2x Overgrown Tomb) Anyone else burst their stuff this weekend?
Super jealous, played Azorious and went 3-1 beating Golgari and 2 Selesnya, losing to Rakdos. Only money cards I opened were Angel of Serenity and Hallowed Fountain in my guild box, my prize packs were jank. I've been sitting on trade material (Bonfire, Snappy, Ajani, Liliana OTV) since AVR waiting to use it to help build this deck. I need to get it constructed before states so I'm under a pretty strict time constraint, I'm already not going to the 5k on saturday since there's no way of getting my cards by the day after the set drops.
The week after that is states and then SCG Providence a day or two after, so I need to have the deck built by then, which is atleast more reasonable then having it done by this saturday. I figure the hardest part will be getting overgrown tombs without paying 17-20 a pop for em'. Hoping I atleast pull a few in my box.
I've found Rootborn Defenses to be useful in almost every matchup. Against aggro decks it creates lopsided combats where you get another guy and block everything they have. I've also used it (although less often) to "dodge" some spot removal (Abrupt Decay? Nah, but I will take another Centaur) and of course, to play around Bonfire. It is very awkward to use it to play around Bonfire, just because the opponent can still drop threats while you're holding back three mana, but in the event it does go off, it's almost like a Time Walk. I'd actually side them out against UW control, since they're playing Terminus, Detention Sphere, and Cyclonic Rift against us instead of Supreme Verdict.
That said, it's hard to decide on which support spells to run mainboard, especially with access to B removal. I'm at 2/2/2 on Rootborn/Rancor/Slip right now, but I have a feeling I should cut one and bump the others up to 3, or else adjust somewhere else.
I've found Rootborn Defenses to be useful in almost every matchup. Against aggro decks it creates lopsided combats where you get another guy and block everything they have. I've also used it (although less often) to "dodge" some spot removal (Abrupt Decay? Nah, but I will take another Centaur) and of course, to play around Bonfire. It is very awkward to use it to play around Bonfire, just because the opponent can still drop threats while you're holding back three mana, but in the event it does go off, it's almost like a Time Walk. I'd actually side them out against UW control, since they're playing Terminus, Detention Sphere, and Cyclonic Rift against us instead of Supreme Verdict.
That said, it's hard to decide on which support spells to run mainboard, especially with access to B removal. I'm at 2/2/2 on Rootborn/Rancor/Slip right now, but I have a feeling I should cut one and bump the others up to 3, or else adjust somewhere else.
I agree with this assessment. To be honest, I've been finding that when I had Rancor mainboard I was siding it out for the most part. While, it was good against Control I'd rather different answers besides Rancor (as certain control has more instant removal than most decks thus negating Rancor's usefulness). Against aggro decks I'd sideboard it out for more answers for the defensive play and to beat them in the long game.
In terms of Tragic Slip, I'd argue that if you are going to run 6 support spells - I'd go 3 Slip, 3 Rootborn. But, you'll have to question yourself on the amount of mulligan's you'll be taking when all you draw are support spells and not generators.
3x duress
2x Sundering Growth
2x Sever the Bloodline
3x Centaur Healer
3x Rootborn Defense
2x Vitu Ghazi Guildmage
centaur Healer over thragtusk because of curve i think.. it drop 2 turn(s) faster than tusk.. providing great body against the likes of gravecrawler, ghoul, rakdos cackler..
duress against control (mutilate, terminus, cyclone rift).
sundering growth against Curse of death's hold,
Vitu Ghazi guildmage is fantastic against control
Rootborn defense, well, I only run this against Bonfire deck / Supreme Verdict Deck..
what do you guys suggest about the sideboard?
I currently running on nerubian's list, but I cut Vitu Ghazi for deathrite shaman, and rancor over Rootborn Defense..
I think that Vitu Ghazi Guildmage needs to be in the main deck. As for Centuar Healer it's nice but I think there are better methods of lifegain. Like the rest of it though! =) what's in your main deck?
I think that Vitu Ghazi Guildmage needs to be in the main deck. As for Centuar Healer it's nice but I think there are better methods of lifegain. Like the rest of it though! =) what's in your main deck?
I can see why someone might not agree with me having Vitu-Ghazi. She is an absolute mana-sink and I can understand the hesitation of it. I think if she's not mainboard she isn't worth it. She is standard against most matches, and is good against control - however, I don't think she absolutely trumps control decks. There are better cards to use to deal with that, but I feel she's useful in almost all matches I play her - which is why I keep her main. However, that spot could be used as removal! I'm starting to consider that.
Jund zombies runs a lot of flames of the firebrand for this exact reason.
Another card that is excellent against us.
I think KoG in the sideboard is a big mistake
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Fixed. Sorry :/
And yeah, I understand that Call makes their removal better. However, without an Intangible Virtue, Spirits are pretty useless against them in terms of racing and trading. I'm thinking that people will be expecting tokens to do the same 1/1 tokens, and thus are going to attempt to hate on that - if they haven't done any research. I don't really want people to be right about this thought.
I feel that while are lists are different, they both are strong. It'll probably depend on what happens at SCG and States, but I'm hoping that I see you compete in it - or seeing you place!
I read a poster say that Arbor Elf isn't as effective or consistent without having access to 12 Forests on t1 at minimum, 14 is 'acceptable' and 16 being good. How do you feel your Arbor Elf has been performing for you - and would you consider going down to 6?
I realize now why you have access to swamps consistently on turn 3 whereas I am getting them around 4. The difference in our mana base is as follows. +2 Woodland Cemetery, -1 Sunpetal Grove, -1 Isolated Chapel. That might be something to look at for me. It allows for more tragic slips and one drop black spells (such as Duress). I didn't feel comfortable running these black mana investments in my sideboard as I didn't feel that they would be reliable enough. Obviously, you are pushing the limits of what the manabase can do - I'm hesitant of this as sometimes that can backfire on you. However, it may be worth the investment.
As a random thought - I don't believe that Curse of Death's Hold warrants a sideboard slot for us. It is just another enchantment to be targeted by Golgari Charm, and I believe that in game 2/3 we need to diversify our spells so that Enchantment hate can't hit us as hard.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Just curious if you tested. Some of the numbers you've given were exagerations, so not sure how overly optimistic you are being.
If youve tested a lot and it's worked out, great. I do think u have a solid list.
And +1 that running curse in sideboard would be huge spew.
It is really against our gameplan, and the double black mana should not be consistantly reachable when you need it.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
The primal hunter is a test, but seems like his card draw synergizes well with GHM, who is often quite big.. And producing tokens is obviously sweet.
Im not sure on the right ratio between token makers and rootborn defenses to maximize rootborns effeciency.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Arbor Elf
3 Geist-Honored Monk
Sorceries:
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Lingering Souls
Instants:
3 Rootborn Defenses
4 Selesnya Charm
1 Midnight Haunting
Planeswalkers:
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Enchantments:
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Collective Blessing
Land:
4 Forest
3 Plains
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Gavony Township
1 Vault of the Archangel
2x Thragtusk
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Rootborn Defenses
1x Vraska, The unseen
2x Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
1x Garruk, Relentless
2x Sundering Growth
I'm debating putting more thragtusk,vraska and/or removal in the sideboard instead of 1x trostani and the guildmages.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I'm not sold on Abrupt Decay because I feel that as versatile as it is, it's not worth it.
There is one thing I'd like to bring up though... We need to figure out a way to deal with Thalia. We can fight her with Relentless (for 5 Mana) slip her for two or Decay her or 3. I don't like either of these suggestions. I'd like to bring up the best green removal that we have access too. Ulvenwald Tracker . Should we be considered this card as a sidebar card. This card helps us deal with Thalia, annoying Deathhawks, and other annoying cards. It serves as repeatable removal AND it is a creature. This means that Thalia doesn't affect it, it is pumped via Gavony and Collective Blessing. And it gives us a way to deal with annoying First Strike on humans and it is a green one drop. You can even sacrifice him to kill Thalia - thoughts?
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
after some playtesting, (with list from nerubian),
I want to point that I need 2 Garruk Relentless to cope with some crazy nuts creature the opponent have (huntmaster, nighthawk, thalia, Blood artist, etc). sadly the move can only be executed once..
about Call of the Conclave.. yes, it can make opponent spot removal better.. but if they spent dreadbore to centaur over my walker, or abrupt decay it over virtue.. i will be mostly happy..
but the downside is, sometimes call only deal 3-6 damage, later than that opponent already locked the board with stronger ground creature, so I can only attack with air creature.. and call will be forced to chump block.. i think haunting and lingering souls is far far better in terms of offensive..
about Rootborn Defenses, I hardly have a good time with this card.. I think this can be replaced with something else.. but I dont know what..
-it requires mana open, which we may don't have often if we are planning to ravages against someone's face..
-it didnt make us kill opponent faster.. (unlike rancors)
-it only adds.. resilience.. against a very narrow cards (bonfire, supreme verdict, mizzium mortars).. the most devastating is bonfire though, because the deck able to beat your face after he cast bonfire, while mizzium and supreme are more controllish, so you can manage to not overextending.
-the only decent target to populate in our deck is.. call of the conclave..
the rest of the deck is great, collective blessing is game breaker, walkers are great.. i also prefer primal hunter over vraska.. it adds raw power to the deck..
I heavily need some constructive feedback with this great deck..
I vehemently disagree with this. Although I would not play Parallel Lives I would definitely play growing ranks. The ability to be able to grow your army without needing to pay mana or play cards is really all kinds of awesome. This coupled with instant token generators give this type of decks ways to fight bonfire. Also the synergy with the two token walkers should not be underestimated. It also makes it easier not to have to over commit into a board wipe.
Why would you love this card but not the enchantment that does it every turn for free? That notwithstanding I agree with you on this one though. He is a excellent mana sink. Getting dudes putting pressure on, forcing the wipe and not costing you cards. Good stuff.
I think tragic slip is a fine answer to thalia...
Interesting to test ulvenwald tracker, but im very skeptical. Having a consistent source of removal is nice, but I suspect he's going to die too often before he gets to untap. His body is very fragile and this format has a lot of 1 toughness hate.
There are a lot more cheap threats to our deck that really demand removal (we cant go over the top of ez) than I realized.
Im subsequently beginning to question the 4x mandatory Selesnya charm AND 4x call of the conclave.
With enough mana dorks, having 12 turn 2 plays isn't really necessary. Call is very solid on defense and a solid populate target but he's pretty mediocre on offense. Our powerful starts are all about anthems + spirits. We don't have much removal, so if they are creature based their ground can get gummed up and he cant attack into them by himself (since the majority of our threats are in the air he gets all the ground attention). If they are control they can probably remove him before he does too much damage.
I'm considering "blackening" the mana base and putting a few removal spells main board. The blackening of the mana base really hurts call of the conclave as consistency is already an issue. Considering cutting call altogether and throwing in removal just to test out how it plays out.
I suspect it's the wrong play, but would like to find a way to sneak in main board removal without messing up the high end of the curve.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
The reason I suggested Tracker over Tragic slip is simply because of this fact - the lists that would run Thalia would not have access to good removal simply for the fact that they are running Thalia. She does not run well with spells and because of this G/W lists tend to avoid running instant/sorcery removal. Tracker helps deal with this matchup, which we have an exceptionally hard time with because of a few relevant combat mechanics, such as double-strike, first strike and trample. Tracker let's us avoid all of these mechanics and lets us trade profitably. Considering he is also a creature that demands removal, you are forcing them to waste removal on a onedrop rather than a good token, Vitu-Ghazi, Trostanti, Thragtusk, GHM. If he isn't answered for he makes himself more than a 1 for 1. Tragic Slip at best can only be a 1-1.
On to the call statement - I can see where you are coming from especially after looking at Believe's list. I believe that this change will really come from looking at the metagame and analyzing where we need to be playing. I don't believe that we should go all-out-aggression as we aren't as fast as some of the other lists. I believe that we need to stabilize against these decks, and the best way to do this is through a good offense. Also, if enchantment removal is at an all time high, Spirits + Anthems lose their value significantly. I feel that Call provides us with a very relevant blocker against specific decks and can easily overpower most creatures if and when the anthem sticks. I believe, and I may be wrong, that to survive we need a good defense to hit the midrange plays.
I do like the idea of running a more 'blacker' base, but I wonder if Slip is the right decision for that. Is it really relevant against the decks that we are going to face? It is fantastic against Falkenwrath Aristocrat! However, Zombies don't care, it doesn't hit Planeswalkers, and we don't have a good (or reliable) way of activating Morbid. I think Sever the Bloodline is a much better card that we don't need to blackening the manabase for, and thus, allows us to be more consistent.
I've been interested in this card for a long time. I like him, and I have him as a SB card. Although, I don't know if he supports a mainboard slot. Against certain decks however, I side him in and he allows us to have fantastic reach (as you said). He's a boss.
Edit: Sorry about the delay in responding - was doing RtR pre-release stuff. Went Selesnya and opened 2 Loxodon Smiters and Angel of Serenity! Vitu-Ghazi won me a few games and I love her even more. Of course, I think I may just love her art. I want a poster of her.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Often too big to fight.
Silver blade paladin . Thalia and mana dorks are the only targets.
I'd still side it in for sure, but that's just 1 matchup and it's not broken in that matchup either.
If zombies were running blood artist an not flames and the firebrand id like it,
But flames already 2 for 1s us too often
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Us off the top of my head.
Vampire nighthawk
Silver blade paladin + trample effects
Thalia
Hunt master of the fells
Blood artist
Olivia (thankfully when she activates twice we get to charm her)
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
One of the other reasons that I find him good is that game 2 & 3 a lot of players will sideboard out a lot of single-target removal. Thus, he becomes stronger. He's also good against Gravecrawler, Dorks, Enemy Tokens, Elite Inquisitor, Precinct Captain, Champion of Llambholt (before she gets big). It also gives our Centaurs reach to deal with fliers.
Flames of the Firebrand is a serious issue, which is another reason I want to avoid going for 1/1s the majority of the time. I think it's an interesting card to try out that allows us to avoid 'blackening' our mana as you suggested.
Edit: It's also a good one drop in our primary t1 colour. (Sure it isn't the greatest one drop as it requires mana to do things, but it allows him to be untapped whenever we first need him).
It's also good at dealing with Loleth Troll as if they active regenerate we can stop the actual trample damage from hitting us before combat damage (although Morbid Tragic Slip is better).
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Rootborn defense is not that good compared to rancor, IMO, as it is situational and response spell that required 3 mana open (which can be played around with our opponent).. I think the sole purpose of this spell is versus Bonfire of the damned (naya aggro).. because if we dont overcommitted, we can easily get pummeled/outrunned by their creature.. and in that times.. rootborn is really shine..
maybe Im wrong, mostly my opponent in mws is control/ramp deck.. I rarely have chances to fight aggro deck..
- Competitive Decks -
WU Venser Allies WU
WR Battlecry Metalcraft WR
GWB Junk Tokens GWB
"Let's roll him down the stairs!"
- Jacob
Jealous. No one opened Temple Gardens or Overgrown Tombs. And if they did open a tomb - they wanted it for Junk Zombies
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
- Competitive Decks -
WU Venser Allies WU
WR Battlecry Metalcraft WR
GWB Junk Tokens GWB
"Let's roll him down the stairs!"
- Jacob
Went undefeated until the final, but it was 5am and my opponent and I were drunk and I was tired so we shook on a draw, quit, and slip 1st place prize. it was pretty eventful.
- Competitive Decks -
WU Venser Allies WU
WR Battlecry Metalcraft WR
GWB Junk Tokens GWB
"Let's roll him down the stairs!"
- Jacob
3x duress
2x Sundering Growth
2x Sever the Bloodline
3x Centaur Healer
3x Rootborn Defense
2x Vitu Ghazi Guildmage
centaur Healer over thragtusk because of curve i think.. it drop 2 turn(s) faster than tusk.. providing great body against the likes of gravecrawler, ghoul, rakdos cackler..
duress against control (mutilate, terminus, cyclone rift).
sundering growth against Curse of death's hold,
Vitu Ghazi guildmage is fantastic against control
Rootborn defense, well, I only run this against Bonfire deck / Supreme Verdict Deck..
what do you guys suggest about the sideboard?
I currently running on nerubian's list, but I cut Vitu Ghazi for deathrite shaman, and rancor over Rootborn Defense..
Super jealous, played Azorious and went 3-1 beating Golgari and 2 Selesnya, losing to Rakdos. Only money cards I opened were Angel of Serenity and Hallowed Fountain in my guild box, my prize packs were jank. I've been sitting on trade material (Bonfire, Snappy, Ajani, Liliana OTV) since AVR waiting to use it to help build this deck. I need to get it constructed before states so I'm under a pretty strict time constraint, I'm already not going to the 5k on saturday since there's no way of getting my cards by the day after the set drops.
The week after that is states and then SCG Providence a day or two after, so I need to have the deck built by then, which is atleast more reasonable then having it done by this saturday. I figure the hardest part will be getting overgrown tombs without paying 17-20 a pop for em'. Hoping I atleast pull a few in my box.
Standard:
GBWAggressive Junk TokensGBW
"Some convictions are so strong that the world must break to accommodate them."
I've found Rootborn Defenses to be useful in almost every matchup. Against aggro decks it creates lopsided combats where you get another guy and block everything they have. I've also used it (although less often) to "dodge" some spot removal (Abrupt Decay? Nah, but I will take another Centaur) and of course, to play around Bonfire. It is very awkward to use it to play around Bonfire, just because the opponent can still drop threats while you're holding back three mana, but in the event it does go off, it's almost like a Time Walk. I'd actually side them out against UW control, since they're playing Terminus, Detention Sphere, and Cyclonic Rift against us instead of Supreme Verdict.
That said, it's hard to decide on which support spells to run mainboard, especially with access to B removal. I'm at 2/2/2 on Rootborn/Rancor/Slip right now, but I have a feeling I should cut one and bump the others up to 3, or else adjust somewhere else.
I agree with this assessment. To be honest, I've been finding that when I had Rancor mainboard I was siding it out for the most part. While, it was good against Control I'd rather different answers besides Rancor (as certain control has more instant removal than most decks thus negating Rancor's usefulness). Against aggro decks I'd sideboard it out for more answers for the defensive play and to beat them in the long game.
In terms of Tragic Slip, I'd argue that if you are going to run 6 support spells - I'd go 3 Slip, 3 Rootborn. But, you'll have to question yourself on the amount of mulligan's you'll be taking when all you draw are support spells and not generators.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I think that Vitu Ghazi Guildmage needs to be in the main deck. As for Centuar Healer it's nice but I think there are better methods of lifegain. Like the rest of it though! =) what's in your main deck?
- Competitive Decks -
WU Venser Allies WU
WR Battlecry Metalcraft WR
GWB Junk Tokens GWB
"Let's roll him down the stairs!"
- Jacob
I can see why someone might not agree with me having Vitu-Ghazi. She is an absolute mana-sink and I can understand the hesitation of it. I think if she's not mainboard she isn't worth it. She is standard against most matches, and is good against control - however, I don't think she absolutely trumps control decks. There are better cards to use to deal with that, but I feel she's useful in almost all matches I play her - which is why I keep her main. However, that spot could be used as removal! I'm starting to consider that.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue