Yup kinda how my testing just went. Literally lost every game I played tonight... Either its Cockatrice screwing with me or its just that bad. I got to play vs BR Zombies getting nut draw on removal, Bant Enchant (had to pay 14 mana per attacker fml), UB Removal/Control, OmniDoor (I freakin lost to OmniDoor wtf). All in all this has to be my worst night...ever... seriously I did better running tribal vampires...
All in all this has to be my worst night...ever... seriously I did better running tribal vampires...
With the metagame shifting to faster aggro, I don't think this deck is in such a good spot as it was last month. If there's more aggro, I would move Garruk, Primal Hunter to the sideboard in favor of some spot removal and just rely on Vault to win. Fast aggro is the only deck we have a lot of trouble with, and its explosion in popularity makes me want to shift to Esper Tokens with maindeck Supreme Verdicts. But that's another deck entirely.
Once we have all ten shocklands in the format, watch out. Not only does it give us Godless Shrine, but there are going to be a TON of people trying to play 5C control/5C midrange. With three control guilds coming (Simic, Orzhov, and Dimir), you're going to see a LOT more control, which we're strong against.
If you're playing vs. threat-heavy aggro with little removal, I would cut Faith's Shield from the maindeck. It's good against everything except aggro.
People who are having trouble with Frites aren't playing Routing Information ProtocolRest in Peace in their sideboards, and we can even protect it from the inevitable Abrupt Decay with Faith's Shield.
If you play in an aggro meta, I'd play this list instead.
TBH I play in a heavy control meta last I checked (haven't made an FNM in 2 weeks now beacuse of school). After running another hour on Cockatrice with Brian Eason's list I did very well. Easily handled zombies and a jank 5 color control deck.
Just got off a few matches on 'trice myself with the new list--the Abrupt Decays go a long way against aggro and aren't dead against other decks except maybe Jund. As much as I like big Garruk, I think it's the right call to move him to the board with all this aggro around. Also it alleviates the too-many-Garruks problem. Tokens is a VERY strong deck to play in a control meta.
Didn't get the chance to test Druid's Deliverance much. It's great against the mono-red/Rx aggro that overextend to get as much damage in as possible, but I will admit the card is narrow.
Re: Dorks. Apparently people are having success with lists that contain dorks and lists with no dorks. I feel it's a playstyle preference, and both versions definitely have their merits. The higher drops like Blessing and big Garruk are better in the dorks lists, but dorks make you really susceptible to bad draws and make your matchup vs. control a LOT worse.
It's a trade off I guess, I'd prefer not to run them but against the aggro/midrange decks that are becoming much more popular it seems better to just go bigger faster these days. Wondering if I should run maybe 4 pilgrims + 2-3 borderland rangers to help fix and land trostani much easier. Borderland ranger can at least get in the way for a turn and bring in the land we need, I'm sort of against running arbor elf since running that many dorks makes our draws later on pretty terrible.
With all the aggro decks/midrange ramp it might mean we have to shift from token production/swarm to midrange value, all the lists I've seen make it far into big tournaments are pretty much all doing the midrange/value thing.
all the lists I've seen make it far into big tournaments are pretty much all doing the midrange/value thing.
Every junk token list I've seen that does well is always 4x Thragtusk, it also seems like no one wants Trostani in their board. As much as I like her I think I need to cut her for a few magic nights and see what happens.
The other thing I think that a lot of lists are missing is interaction. I have tested tons of different lists at FNMs and some do well one night and awful the next and I think that its due to limited/no spot removal in most of the lists. Some of you will say "Charm kills anything worth killing," and yeah that is true but zombies don't run anything over 5 power short of an exalted Aristocrat. Abrupt Decay is powerful and may be the best option, but then there is O-Ring that can take anything off the board that you don't like. Anyone else feel a similar way?
I'd prefer not to run them but against the aggro/midrange decks that are becoming much more popular it seems better to just go bigger faster these days.
With Slip and Pillar in the default aggro deck, what are the real chances of a turn 1 dork sticking? The issue I have with dorks is asking yourself, "Is this hand keepable if my opponent has a turn 1 (or even 2 on the draw) Pillar/Slip?" You'll find yourself mulling a lot more hands. The manabase is already the biggest obstacle for this deck. Do you want to have to throw even MORE games away because of bad mana?
Very rarely do we want to be the aggressor. Borderland Ranger I can see because it buys us time. If aggro is everywhere, I'd just run more answers than try to go bigger faster. We want to buy enough time to get Vault online.
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A mere ten days after the Mending, a young knight of Valeron and a young ranger of Eos made a discovery that would change Alara forever.
Very rarely do we want to be the aggressor. Borderland Ranger I can see because it buys us time. If aggro is everywhere, I'd just run more answers than try to go bigger faster. We want to buy enough time to get Vault online.
This is pretty much the heart of it. We're more like a type of control deck, not aggro, and every change we might make to speed up our game is also removing one of our threats. In fact, I don't think there's a way to increase our tempo without neutering the deck.
This rise in aggro means we need to maindeck a few more answers, as RR stated. I think that aggro will shift again, as the meta seems to be in a constant flux with decks becoming more popular depending on what beats the current flavor of the month. This just means that we all need to pay closer attention to the meta and manage our MD and SB with a heavier hand.
Just as a heads up, everyone, I'm in the process of writing a new primer for the thread, since Nerubian seems to have abandoned it. Expect to move to a new thread within the next few days.
Going to be looking back through all 19 pages of discussion. If you have anything to add to the primer, speak up.
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A mere ten days after the Mending, a young knight of Valeron and a young ranger of Eos made a discovery that would change Alara forever.
I think my list (or some like it) could be presented as alternatives to your more control-oriented build. I think both styles can work successfully as both you and I have had good records with our decks. Mainly, I still think Thragtusk can have a place in a tokens deck.
If you're interested, I can post my most recent list later.
This is the version I have used to go 3-1 twice recently. Some of the changes are really meta based but I really like how it's played out. My losses have been due to stupid luck or just plain I am to tired to be playing the game style mistakes.
Yes I dropped Trostani from my MB, she is sitting in the side. As much as really think it is a great card I have had better luck with this current setup.
The Deathrite Shaman are just all-stars for me. If I felt I could get another one in I would but I pretty happy with were it's at now.
If you want to see the SB I can post it but it's so meta that I am not sure it matters here.
My list is similar to RR's, except I only run 60 cards (-1 Relentless). Also, I run two Golgari Charms in place of a Selenya Charm and a Rootborn Defenses. The ability to either regen my board, spot remove an enchantment, or pick off unbuffed spirits in the mirror or an aristocrat is growing in appeal to me.
I played the Joseph Vazquez from page 49 deck last night in a cash tournament. I wasn't keen on running with 62 cards because it screws up the chance to draw IV if you don't start with it. Dropped Deathrite, and a Gavony from the Main Deck list he had. Also don't own any Liliana's so I put Abrupt Decay in it's spot. Only 3 rounds because of attendance, but the deck got there and I won $60 cash.
Round 1 vs Parallel Lives tokens.
This deck was a selesnya G/W tokens with Trostoni and Rootborn Defenses and Centaurs upon Centaurs. One game he got out double Parallel Lives and I couldn't Vault enough to stay ahead. The other 2 matches were heavily in my favor though with double IV or IV Sorin making 2 spirits go all the way.
Round 2 vs America Control
This list was very similar to Ryan Hipp's from TCG 50k, and that's good because my playtest group has ran plenty of games against it. Brought in Rootborn Defenses and Abrupt Decays from the side to beat Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere. Sideboarding worked perfect and I took it in 2.
Last Round vs Aziorius Mill?
My final opponent had a millstone deck. It ran Jace Adept, and Doorkeeper, and Chronic Flooding, and the enchant player to mill 2 every turn along with mind sculpt. It was a neat idea, and Jace milled me all the way out in Game 2. His deck does no damage so it was souls vs mill pretty much. Game 3 the rootborn defenses and abrupt decays saved me from the exact same cards America used Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere.
I did not play against any aggro in the small pool. I used almost the exact same list at a case tournament on Saturday last weekend and went 2-3 losing to Boros Humans, and Golgari slime deck in agro, and 4c Reanimator. I was ready to scrap it, but I guess I keep on keeping on.
I'm a big fan of walkers in the deck. So many people want to kill Sorin when I play him and make an emblem immediately. Sorin already did his job so if they waste a turn knocking him out I can usually take control.
With the metagame shifting to faster aggro, I don't think this deck is in such a good spot as it was last month. If there's more aggro, I would move Garruk, Primal Hunter to the sideboard in favor of some spot removal and just rely on Vault to win. Fast aggro is the only deck we have a lot of trouble with, and its explosion in popularity makes me want to shift to Esper Tokens with maindeck Supreme Verdicts. But that's another deck entirely.
Once we have all ten shocklands in the format, watch out. Not only does it give us Godless Shrine, but there are going to be a TON of people trying to play 5C control/5C midrange. With three control guilds coming (Simic, Orzhov, and Dimir), you're going to see a LOT more control, which we're strong against.
If you're playing vs. threat-heavy aggro with little removal, I would cut Faith's Shield from the maindeck. It's good against everything except aggro.
People who are having trouble with Frites aren't playing
Routing Information ProtocolRest in Peace in their sideboards, and we can even protect it from the inevitable Abrupt Decay with Faith's Shield.If you play in an aggro meta, I'd play this list instead.
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetery
3 Plains
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
3 Vault of the Archangel
Oneshot Token Production: 16
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Selesnya Charm
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
The Rest: 12
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Faith's Shield
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Rootborn Defenses
3 Terminus
3 Sundering Growth
3 Erase
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Faith's Shield
3 Rest in Peace
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
3x Arbor Elf
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Borderland Ranger
4x Thragtusk
Enchantment (7)
1x Collective Blessing
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Midnight Haunting
3x Selesnya Charm
Land (23)
4x Forest
3x Gavony Township
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Sunpetal Grove
1x Swamp
4x Temple Garden
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Garruk, Primal-Hunter
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Didn't get the chance to test Druid's Deliverance much. It's great against the mono-red/Rx aggro that overextend to get as much damage in as possible, but I will admit the card is narrow.
Re: Dorks. Apparently people are having success with lists that contain dorks and lists with no dorks. I feel it's a playstyle preference, and both versions definitely have their merits. The higher drops like Blessing and big Garruk are better in the dorks lists, but dorks make you really susceptible to bad draws and make your matchup vs. control a LOT worse.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
With all the aggro decks/midrange ramp it might mean we have to shift from token production/swarm to midrange value, all the lists I've seen make it far into big tournaments are pretty much all doing the midrange/value thing.
Every junk token list I've seen that does well is always 4x Thragtusk, it also seems like no one wants Trostani in their board. As much as I like her I think I need to cut her for a few magic nights and see what happens.
The other thing I think that a lot of lists are missing is interaction. I have tested tons of different lists at FNMs and some do well one night and awful the next and I think that its due to limited/no spot removal in most of the lists. Some of you will say "Charm kills anything worth killing," and yeah that is true but zombies don't run anything over 5 power short of an exalted Aristocrat. Abrupt Decay is powerful and may be the best option, but then there is O-Ring that can take anything off the board that you don't like. Anyone else feel a similar way?
With Slip and Pillar in the default aggro deck, what are the real chances of a turn 1 dork sticking? The issue I have with dorks is asking yourself, "Is this hand keepable if my opponent has a turn 1 (or even 2 on the draw) Pillar/Slip?" You'll find yourself mulling a lot more hands. The manabase is already the biggest obstacle for this deck. Do you want to have to throw even MORE games away because of bad mana?
Very rarely do we want to be the aggressor. Borderland Ranger I can see because it buys us time. If aggro is everywhere, I'd just run more answers than try to go bigger faster. We want to buy enough time to get Vault online.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
This is pretty much the heart of it. We're more like a type of control deck, not aggro, and every change we might make to speed up our game is also removing one of our threats. In fact, I don't think there's a way to increase our tempo without neutering the deck.
This rise in aggro means we need to maindeck a few more answers, as RR stated. I think that aggro will shift again, as the meta seems to be in a constant flux with decks becoming more popular depending on what beats the current flavor of the month. This just means that we all need to pay closer attention to the meta and manage our MD and SB with a heavier hand.
Going to be looking back through all 19 pages of discussion. If you have anything to add to the primer, speak up.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
If you're interested, I can post my most recent list later.
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetery
3 Plains
1 Swap
1 Forest
2 Vault of the Archangel
1 Gavony Township
3 Garrurk Relentless
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Deathrite Shaman
Spells & Enchants:
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Rootborn Defenses
2 Ultimate Price
Yes I dropped Trostani from my MB, she is sitting in the side. As much as really think it is a great card I have had better luck with this current setup.
The Deathrite Shaman are just all-stars for me. If I felt I could get another one in I would but I pretty happy with were it's at now.
If you want to see the SB I can post it but it's so meta that I am not sure it matters here.
Round 1 vs Parallel Lives tokens.
This deck was a selesnya G/W tokens with Trostoni and Rootborn Defenses and Centaurs upon Centaurs. One game he got out double Parallel Lives and I couldn't Vault enough to stay ahead. The other 2 matches were heavily in my favor though with double IV or IV Sorin making 2 spirits go all the way.
Round 2 vs America Control
This list was very similar to Ryan Hipp's from TCG 50k, and that's good because my playtest group has ran plenty of games against it. Brought in Rootborn Defenses and Abrupt Decays from the side to beat Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere. Sideboarding worked perfect and I took it in 2.
Last Round vs Aziorius Mill?
My final opponent had a millstone deck. It ran Jace Adept, and Doorkeeper, and Chronic Flooding, and the enchant player to mill 2 every turn along with mind sculpt. It was a neat idea, and Jace milled me all the way out in Game 2. His deck does no damage so it was souls vs mill pretty much. Game 3 the rootborn defenses and abrupt decays saved me from the exact same cards America used Supreme Verdict and Detention Sphere.
I did not play against any aggro in the small pool. I used almost the exact same list at a case tournament on Saturday last weekend and went 2-3 losing to Boros Humans, and Golgari slime deck in agro, and 4c Reanimator. I was ready to scrap it, but I guess I keep on keeping on.
I'm a big fan of walkers in the deck. So many people want to kill Sorin when I play him and make an emblem immediately. Sorin already did his job so if they waste a turn knocking him out I can usually take control.
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya