I don't know if this is just my friend killing me or my deck just not being optimized properly or me just not playing properly, but the whole time I've been playing this deck, I either have not won but come close, or been completely wiped off the board.
Note: Friends of mine are guys from my college whose decks I've played many many times.
Decks I've played against:
Mono-Blue Aggro (Illusions and Counters) - Friend of mine. Not that big of a threat unless he gets out Lord of Unreal and all of his bears quickly, or a large Phantasmal Dragon at the end. A timely Day or Elspeth works wonders.
Tempered Steel (Hero, Inkmoth, Spellskite) - Friend of mine. He's been killing me the past few days, even with Divine Offering and Rolling Tremblor. Turn three deaths are common, and now he's running spot removal with Galvanic Blast as well, which wouldn't be a problem until he waits for the bird to come. Thinking about Urgent Exorcisms for TS removal, but not sure how the SB would look.
Geist-Blade - 0-2. This was before I had Divine Offerings in the SB. Came close every first turn, but second turn decimated me.
Mono-Blue Control (Illusions) - Went 1-2, with the win coming from and overpowered Wurmcoil + Batterskull + Angelic. Otherwise he milled me or out-countered me.
Mono-Black Reanimator Zombies (Geth, Cemetery Reaper) - 2-1, Perfect final game. The game I lost was because of mulling down to 4 just to get Mountain, Clifftop, Plains, Slag, and didn't draw anything else.
Other Decks in the meta-game that I know of:
BWR Planeswalkers Control - Karn, Sorin, Chandra. No Creatures that I've seen, but all of my friends (Mono-Blue Aggro and Galvanic Steel) have died to this guy. What I'm worried about is dealing with the Walkers quickly enough and not having enough removal for them.
Tempered Steel (Traditional + Infect SB) - Not as worried, since I've been playing against my friend, but again I'm slightly worried about removal.
I think there's a self-mill deck and an invisiblade too, but I haven't played them.
Next two were just my buddy back home playing his decks he's been crafting. He doesn't actually play in my meta, but he scared me enough to post them here.
Mono-Green Dungrove Ramp - 0-5. Turn 1 Land and Elves, Turn 2 Land Elves, Turn Three Land Solemn Land, Turn Four Dungrove. I never got a Ring. He killed me with Carnage Wurms twice (hit me, bloodthirst a second). He'd have at least 6 forests by turn 5 consistently.
Blue Bringback Infect - 1-4. You would think unblockable would be fine. Unblighted Agent, Inkmoth, Phyrexian Juggernaut. I beat him only when he could not get his agents back out through a Surgical Extraction. I also wasn't using Divine Offerings here, but I think if I had them I still would lose 2-3 because he played so quickly.
Bonds of Faith are temporary as I was testing them (against the Galvanic Steel). They didn't really work against this deck but I think they could against others (that aren't hexproof). I'm thinking about trying to find more Batterskulls and Elspeths, as well as another OB and DoJ, getting rid of the Wurmcoils and Doomed Travelers, but I still need creatures. I also think Timely Reinforcements would be quite useful.
Honestly, when outside of FNM, I've been killing every other deck. RDW, Spirits, Zombies, Werewolves, Illusions, Control, Combo. I know this deck is killer. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Any thoughts?
Also questions for the Maker (all questions are serious inquiry for learning):
Why have you put Gideon in the deck?
How does having only 4 drawable creatures affect your early game, and do you ever run into trouble with much faster decks?
How do you deal with large creatures besides praying for DoJ or OB with all your opponent's mana tapped?
Why did you take out Destiny after first lauding it as the win condition?
P.S. I've only been playing since this past summer (when M12 came out). It just may be that I'm inexperienced.
I don't know if this is just my friend killing me or my deck just not being optimized properly or me just not playing properly, but the whole time I've been playing this deck, I either have not won but come close, or been completely wiped off the board.
Note: Friends of mine are guys from my college whose decks I've played many many times.
Decks I've played against:
Mono-Blue Aggro (Illusions and Counters) - Friend of mine. Not that big of a threat unless he gets out Lord of Unreal and all of his bears quickly, or a large Phantasmal Dragon at the end. A timely Day or Elspeth works wonders.
Tempered Steel (Hero, Inkmoth, Spellskite) - Friend of mine. He's been killing me the past few days, even with Divine Offering and Rolling Tremblor. Turn three deaths are common, and now he's running spot removal with Galvanic Blast as well, which wouldn't be a problem until he waits for the bird to come. Thinking about Urgent Exorcisms for TS removal, but not sure how the SB would look.
Geist-Blade - 0-2. This was before I had Divine Offerings in the SB. Came close every first turn, but second turn decimated me.
Mono-Blue Control (Illusions) - Went 1-2, with the win coming from and overpowered Wurmcoil + Batterskull + Angelic. Otherwise he milled me or out-countered me.
Mono-Black Reanimator Zombies (Geth, Cemetery Reaper) - 2-1, Perfect final game. The game I lost was because of mulling down to 4 just to get Mountain, Clifftop, Plains, Slag, and didn't draw anything else.
Other Decks in the meta-game that I know of:
BWR Planeswalkers Control - Karn, Sorin, Chandra. No Creatures that I've seen, but all of my friends (Mono-Blue Aggro and Galvanic Steel) have died to this guy. What I'm worried about is dealing with the Walkers quickly enough and not having enough removal for them.
Tempered Steel (Traditional + Infect SB) - Not as worried, since I've been playing against my friend, but again I'm slightly worried about removal.
I think there's a self-mill deck and an invisiblade too, but I haven't played them.
Next two were just my buddy back home playing his decks he's been crafting. He doesn't actually play in my meta, but he scared me enough to post them here.
Mono-Green Dungrove Ramp - 0-5. Turn 1 Land and Elves, Turn 2 Land Elves, Turn Three Land Solemn Land, Turn Four Dungrove. I never got a Ring. He killed me with Carnage Wurms twice (hit me, bloodthirst a second). He'd have at least 6 forests by turn 5 consistently.
Blue Bringback Infect - 1-4. You would think unblockable would be fine. Unblighted Agent, Inkmoth, Phyrexian Juggernaut. I beat him only when he could not get his agents back out through a Surgical Extraction. I also wasn't using Divine Offerings here, but I think if I had them I still would lose 2-3 because he played so quickly.
Bonds of Faith are temporary as I was testing them (against the Galvanic Steel). They didn't really work against this deck but I think they could against others (that aren't hexproof). I'm thinking about trying to find more Batterskulls and Elspeths, as well as another OB and DoJ, getting rid of the Wurmcoils and Doomed Travelers, but I still need creatures. I also think Timely Reinforcements would be quite useful.
Honestly, when outside of FNM, I've been killing every other deck. RDW, Spirits, Zombies, Werewolves, Illusions, Control, Combo. I know this deck is killer. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Any thoughts?
Also questions for the Maker (all questions are serious inquiry for learning):
Why have you put Gideon in the deck?
How does having only 4 drawable creatures affect your early game, and do you ever run into trouble with much faster decks?
How do you deal with large creatures besides praying for DoJ or OB with all your opponent's mana tapped?
Why did you take out Destiny after first lauding it as the win condition?
P.S. I've only been playing since this past summer (when M12 came out). It just may be that I'm inexperienced.
Gideon is a beast for removal and fast attack that can avoid sweepers.
But anyways.
1) 3 MB Temblors? With all of the others? This could be alone why you're losing. I'd cut for an Elspeth and 2 Gideon. Good for SB vs. Temp Steel though.
2) 3 Roc Egg? That's unnecessary. Definitely take it at least one out for maybe an Oblivion Ring, because
3) 3 Oblivion Ring just doesn't work. Play 4.
4) Destiny, destiny, destiny. No one else should cut it. I just got bored and wanted to test. Play 3.
5) Problems with aggro? PROBLEMS WITH AGGRO!? Good joke! Why would I have a problem with aggro. Shut down their early game. Period.
6) I have a problem with you not running Sylvok Lifestaff. That card is really amazing on a Perilous Myr or especially on a Doomed Traveler as not only do you gain 6 life, but the flying token just got its power doubled.
I hope this helps.
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The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
Gideon is a beast for removal and fast attack that can avoid sweepers.
But anyways.
1) 3 MB Temblors? With all of the others? This could be alone why you're losing. I'd cut for an Elspeth and 2 Gideon. Good for SB vs. Temp Steel though.
2) 3 Roc Egg? That's unnecessary. Definitely take it at least one out for maybe an Oblivion Ring, because
3) 3 Oblivion Ring just doesn't work. Play 4.
4) Destiny, destiny, destiny. No one else should cut it. I just got bored and wanted to test. Play 3.
5) Problems with aggro? PROBLEMS WITH AGGRO!? Good joke! Why would I have a problem with aggro. Shut down their early game. Period.
6) I have a problem with you not running Sylvok Lifestaff. That card is really amazing on a Perilous Myr or especially on a Doomed Traveler as not only do you gain 6 life, but the flying token just got its power doubled.
I hope this helps.
Ok, taking the suggestions into consideration, this is what I will be running tonight:
So what's your current list, Eminem? The most recent one you posted and the one in the OP both contain 0 Angelic Destinies (which I agree this deck should be running). I'm putting this deck together at the moment, having had my eye on it for a while and some light testing online. My two big questions are:
How do you deal with Thrun? - Simply blocking him seems adequate to shut him down for a while, but hard work.
How do you deal with Inkmoth Nexus, especially giant trampling Nexi? He just shrugs off sorcery speed sweeps, and Oblivion Ring can't help you.
Nexus is something that has been bugging me as well. I might try Gut Shot or Geistflame in the SB.
Thrun, you just want to catch them off guard. Use sweepers when they have no land.
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The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
I keep honestly following this deck list and evolution and don't understand a few things:
1. Why splash red when you barely have any red in there? Could easily replace all red with divine reckoning and use indestructible stuff.
2. Why bother with red when you could use black for reanimations and black sun's zenith?
3. How come nobody uses the fiend hunter insurance with sun titans/wurmcoil engines instead of just board wiping stupidly?
If you used black instead of red, you could use Reassembling skeleton, Sheoldred, unburial rites.
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Decks:
Modern: (P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R) UWU Fish UWU WB Disruption BW
Standard: WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR WWW Humans WWW
Commander: BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB GGG Thrun Tron GGG WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
I keep honestly following this deck list and evolution and don't understand a few things:
1. Why splash red when you barely have any red in there? Could easily replace all red with divine reckoning and use indestructible stuff.
2. Why bother with red when you could use black for reanimations and black sun's zenith?
3. How come nobody uses the fiend hunter insurance with sun titans/wurmcoil engines instead of just board wiping stupidly?
If you used black instead of red, you could use Reassembling skeleton, Sheoldred, unburial rites.
Yeah, BW is basically the direction I ended up going when I first started testing this deck, which btw, was the first deck I built once Innistrad was released, and I REALLY wanted it to work. Even so, BW wasn't strong enough, so now I play GBR, go figure. Obviously Grenadier is good against aggro, so if you expect that, it might be the perfect deck. The problems come in the form of cards such as Inkmoth (as has been noted), Beast Within on your O-Rings, Wurmcoil Engine, most planeswalkers, UB Control in general, Lashwrithe, and Thrun+Swords, and you can expect to see all of these at the top tables. Back during Ravnica, I played a deck with a similar concept to great success, but back then we had durable tools such as Firemane Angel, Genju of the Spires, Genju of the Fields (you can stack the psuedo-lifelink for an absurd life buffer that most decks couldn't outrace), Shard Phoenix, and Myojin of Cleansing Fire, so we could dominate the long game vs. just about any deck. If anyone can think of something like those that's around today and gives a better long game than anything Wolf Run can muster, I think this deck may have a shot. Batterskull and Angelic Destiny are good starts, but I think you need something else, especially something that gets past counterspells like Firemane, Genjus, and Shard Phoenix did. Maybe Kuldotha Phoenix with a ton of equipment? Swords/Batterskulls/Sylvok Lifestaffs are all decent options, and you already run an artifact in Perilous Myr. Manor Gargoyle and Glint Hawk Idol survive your wipes, and other Living Weapons besides Batterskull (Mortarpod or Strandwalker maybe?) can help defend you and be pumped to attack, while still fueling Kuldotha Phoenix. Solemn Simulacrum gives you much-needed value, carries equipment, and doesn't mind getting wiped, and Inkmoth Nexus would give you the last 4 artifacts. It's a shame we don't have Stoneforge Mystic. I'm also somewhat afraid of Dissipate still, especially with Snapcaster and so much quality dig (Think Twice, Desperate Ravings, Forbidden Alchemy) around. I'll post again if I get around to testing this idea.
Really intrigued by this deck, this is what I crafted up really quick without any testing at all. Gonna make it now on MWS and test and see how things go.
Yeah, BW is basically the direction I ended up going when I first started testing this deck, which btw, was the first deck I built once Innistrad was released, and I REALLY wanted it to work. Even so, BW wasn't strong enough, so now I play GBR, go figure. Obviously Grenadier is good against aggro, so if you expect that, it might be the perfect deck. The problems come in the form of cards such as Inkmoth (as has been noted), Beast Within on your O-Rings, Wurmcoil Engine, most planeswalkers, UB Control in general, Lashwrithe, and Thrun+Swords, and you can expect to see all of these at the top tables. Back during Ravnica, I played a deck with a similar concept to great success, but back then we had durable tools such as Firemane Angel, Genju of the Spires, Genju of the Fields (you can stack the psuedo-lifelink for an absurd life buffer that most decks couldn't outrace), Shard Phoenix, and Myojin of Cleansing Fire, so we could dominate the long game vs. just about any deck. If anyone can think of something like those that's around today and gives a better long game than anything Wolf Run can muster, I think this deck may have a shot. Batterskull and Angelic Destiny are good starts, but I think you need something else, especially something that gets past counterspells like Firemane, Genjus, and Shard Phoenix did. Maybe Kuldotha Phoenix with a ton of equipment? Swords/Batterskulls/Sylvok Lifestaffs are all decent options, and you already run an artifact in Perilous Myr. Manor Gargoyle and Glint Hawk Idol survive your wipes, and other Living Weapons besides Batterskull (Mortarpod or Strandwalker maybe?) can help defend you and be pumped to attack, while still fueling Kuldotha Phoenix. Solemn Simulacrum gives you much-needed value, carries equipment, and doesn't mind getting wiped, and Inkmoth Nexus would give you the last 4 artifacts. It's a shame we don't have Stoneforge Mystic. I'm also somewhat afraid of Dissipate still, especially with Snapcaster and so much quality dig (Think Twice, Desperate Ravings, Forbidden Alchemy) around. I'll post again if I get around to testing this idea.
Really intrigued by this deck, this is what I crafted up really quick without any testing at all. You can find my list on the next page. Gonna make it now on MWS and test and see how things go.
I'll see how it tests but if anyone has any initial feedback I'd love to hear it.
Kinda "meh" about Sun Titans with so little to get…better replaced with moar Batterskull (as I notice you're only running one) or maybe Manor Gargoyles.
So obviously it is relatively creature-heavy and I expect anywhere from great success to failure. Hopefully I shall not see too many Dismembers hatin' on my Manor Gargoyles. So I think this should work better.
The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
Kinda "meh" about Sun Titans with so little to get…better replaced with moar Batterskull (as I notice you're only running one) or maybe Manor Gargoyles.
So obviously it is relatively creature-heavy and I expect anywhere from great success to failure. Hopefully I shall not see too many Dismembers hatin' on my Manor Gargoyles. So I think this should work better.
Yeah I agree Sun Titan wasn't that strong in testing--I was thinking of setting up some Perilous Myr+Mortarpod+Sun Titan shenanigans but that's probably just win more anyway. I'll probabyl switch them to Wurmcoils like you did.
Mortarpod is pretty awesome, although without sun titan i'll probably drop it down to 1 or 2 as well.
I liked batterskull--and I'll look at Manor Gargoyle because he seems pretty strong as well.
&I thought brimstone would be a good addition due to the fact creatures will be dying all the time, and 5 damage for 3 is really good. I like it in the deck, The games i won seemed to be pretty long and drawn out and every point of damage counted, so 5 is a big chunk you don't have to worry about later.
Edit: 3 pyroclasm in your deck is supposed to be 3 DoJ i'm assuming?
Edit: I feel like Timely is only really good as a sideboard card, if that. I feel like it's only good against aggro which this deck already has a great matchup against. It's literally worthless against control.
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UW Control :symu::symw:
UWr Control :symu::symw::symr:
Yeah I agree Sun Titan wasn't that strong in testing--I was thinking of setting up some Perilous Myr+Mortarpod+Sun Titan shenanigans but that's probably just win more anyway. I'll probabyl switch them to Wurmcoils like you did.
Mortarpod is pretty awesome, although without sun titan i'll probably drop it down to 1 or 2 as well.
I liked batterskull--and I'll look at Manor Gargoyle because he seems pretty strong as well.
&I thought brimstone would be a good addition due to the fact creatures will be dying all the time, and 5 damage for 3 is really good. I like it in the deck, The games i won seemed to be pretty long and drawn out and every point of damage counted, so 5 is a big chunk you don't have to worry about later.
Edit: 3 pyroclasm in your deck is supposed to be 3 DoJ i'm assuming?
Edit: I feel like Timely is only really good as a sideboard card, if that. I feel like it's only good against aggro which this deck already has a great matchup against. It's literally worthless against control.
Don't judge me.
I guess you're right about Timely. I probably will replace it with Mortarpods.
What I love about Mortarpods is that you always get value outta your creatures.
Will test Brimstone.
EDIT: Hellz yah pg5!!!
EDIT2: I think you should have 3 Elspeth in your list. Having 3 of it really does make a huge difference, it's your main win-con aside from Destiny.
The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
Use fiend hunter as insurance...
Sun titan
Fiend hunter -> Sun titan
DoJ
You lose nothing...
Fiend Hunter really doesn't work here…not only is it TERRIBLE where we are constantly killing our own creatures, but it's only OK interaction is with Sun Titan, which is actually bad here.
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The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
Hmmm.. I have almost all the cards to build this deck except for the Planeswalkers.. I only have 1 Gideon, is it worth building without Elspeth? It would save me effort in trying to get some Clifftop Retreats tomorrow.
Hmmm.. I have almost all the cards to build this deck except for the Planeswalkers.. I only have 1 Gideon, is it worth building without Elspeth? It would save me effort in trying to get some Clifftop Retreats tomorrow.
It's worth a shot, but Elspeth IS your main win-con.
So I'm thinking without the Elspeth, max out on your Destinies. Throw in that Gideon for sure, and throw in a Shrine of Loyal Legions for long control games that Elspeth would have dominated. After that, let's see your decklist for some fine-tuning. Thanks!
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The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
I found a build of RW board control that has game against Wolf Run, UB Control, Birthing Pod, and Humans aggro. Haven't tested anything else yet, but if it can handle those 4, it can handle most things that matter. The trick is that it can't have a good matchup against aggro AND the other 3 at the same time, but your sideboard is SOOO good against aggro (which is less dominant now anyway), that you can be pretty confident you'll take games 2 and 3. Against Wolf Run you have around a 50/50, and you walk all over UB Control. I'd say you have a 50-55% win ratio against the field with this build...at LEAST, which isn't bad at all. The trick is that you shouldn't try to overpower their creatures, which will usually be stronger, but instead you should use creatures that can kill and copy theirs. Here's what I'm working with. Still might need some tweaking. And just a note: It's not good at all against Ancient Grudge, but there's not much I can do about that.
Just a note: The 4 blue mana sources are just to keep Phyrexian Metamorph from harming you, but they give you a distinct advantage by tricking people into thinking you run Mana Leak or something. Just act like you have a Mana Leak and you're deciding whether to use it. It will really throw some players off.
So here's how it works, matchup by matchup:
---VS. Wolf Run---
You have Geistflames for their mana creatures and Inkmoths, and Ghost Quarters for Wolf Runs (don't waste them on Inkmoths). Archon of Justice can deal with anything (but usually it's a Garruk, Primeval, or Wolf Run), but because he and the Phoenix fly, they can also be an answer to Garruk and Inkmoths in general. Wurmcoil simply holds them off until you draw a Wrath, and notably can kill Dungrove. Metamorph is cast in response to a Primeval, or in an emergency, a Wurmcoil (or on your own Wurmcoil). You then fetch your Ghost Quarters and take out their Wolf Runs, which are a huge threat to you. Without Wolf Runs, they are soooo much weaker, and you'll be at the advantage. They might try to Beast Within your Mimic Vats, because if you get a Solemn Simulacrum, Wurmcoil, Titan, or Acidic Slime under one, you'll be tough for them to deal with. This is where Buried Ruin comes in. It makes sure you have more Vats than they can answer, so you can seal the deal. Try to get a Wurmcoil (yours or theirs) under it, then just keep buidling up tokens every turn to block until you draw a flyer (or revive a killed Phoenix) and kill them with that. Oh, and Metamorph can kill Thrun for you, and can also become a SoFaF to use against them.
---VS UB Control---
Let me just say from the beginning that your mainboard is pretty set against them, but postboard you probably want to take out your Geistflames for Oblivion Rings. Whether you trade your Phyrexian Rebirths for more Rings is up to you, but they give you a creature and put something in your Vat. It depends on how many Wurmcoils and Grave Titans your opponent is using, how afraid you are of Mana Leak, and how much you feel you need your Vat to win. Anyway, just try to resolve a Vat, Archon, or Phoenix before they cast their finisher. Archon can race or nullify their first finisher. Phoenix can race them and come back if they kill it if they don't Dissipate it. Vat will just kill them if you ever resolve a Wurmcoil, a Metamorph, an Archon, or a Wrath. So anyway, that's the early game. After they start casting finishers, you want to either Wrath, or cast a Wurmcoil, Metamorph, or Archon in response. You have more answers than they have finishers, and if they run out of business you start pressuring them with a Phoenix. If you Vat a Sphinx, create the token on THEIR turn before they draw, and you'll get 2 cards and feed even more off of them if they try to dig. Importantly, your 2 Buried Ruins helps to increase your threat density by giving you more Vats, Metamorphs, amd Wurmcoils, while making Phoenix easier to revive.
---VS Birthing Pod---
Use your Oblivion Rings and Archons+Wrath to remove their Pods. Get their 187 creatures under Mimic Vat and abuse the heck out of their abilities. Geistflame their Phantasmal Images, and Metamorph anything you can't otherwise deal with. Simple.
---VS Aggro---
Now we come to the reason this isn't yet a Tier 1 deck. Aggro will walk all over you Game 1. The good news is, your sideboard is sooooo brutal on them you stand a good shot at taking the next two games. Obviously everything in the board is good, so just use what you think you need. Forced Worship deserves special mention, because it might look janky but is actually quite insane. You only care about attacking, so it basically deals with their biggest threat for 2 mana. They play a bigger threat? Move it. You finally draw the board wipe? Return it to hand at the end of their turn, wipe on yours, and you already have an answer for their next and later on best creature. It's also very important vs Angelic Destiny, because it basically screws over whatever they cast it on. Now, for what to remove, I like taking out the Phoenixes, Vats, and Metamorphs, and probably the Geistflames or Manaliths.
----------------------
I'll also throw in a build I tried for fun that actually did beat Wolf Run Green a few times (20% I'd say). It's not great, but it's something that might interest a few of you, plus it's fun to play.
The red is all in the sideboard, and is the usual Whipflares, Slagstorms, Blasphemous Acts, etc.
The Empires set pieces aren't useless either. Crown disables Wolf Run, Titan, and Wurmcoil Scepter keeps Garruk from going ultimate. Throne holds off Dungrove if they don't have Wolf Run. It's not totally impossible to get all 3 either with help from Buried Ruins.
Anyway, according to my tests against my usual gauntlet, the first build is pretty good, and has a similar ability to trump just about any deck in the long game as the Firemane Angel build I mentioned earlier. The only things I don't like about it are the weakness to artifact destruction and the inability to be strong against aggro Game 1. I'd seriously recommend it to anyone who is set on playing RW board control though, or just anyone who wants to beat Wolf Run at their own game for kicks.
I found a build of RW board control that has game against Wolf Run, UB Control, Birthing Pod, and Humans aggro. Haven't tested anything else yet, but if it can handle those 4, it can handle most things that matter. The trick is that it can't have a good matchup against aggro AND the other 3 at the same time, but your sideboard is SOOO good against aggro (which is less dominant now anyway), that you can be pretty confident you'll take games 2 and 3. Against Wolf Run you have around a 50/50, and you walk all over UB Control. I'd say you have a 50-55% win ratio against the field with this build...at LEAST, which isn't bad at all. The trick is that you shouldn't try to overpower their creatures, which will usually be stronger, but instead you should use creatures that can kill and copy theirs. Here's what I'm working with. Still might need some tweaking. And just a note: It's not good at all against Ancient Grudge, but there's not much I can do about that.
Just a note: The 4 blue mana sources are just to keep Phyrexian Metamorph from harming you, but they give you a distinct advantage by tricking people into thinking you run Mana Leak or something. Just act like you have a Mana Leak and you're deciding whether to use it. It will really throw some players off.
So here's how it works, matchup by matchup:
---VS. Wolf Run---
You have Geistflames for their mana creatures and Inkmoths, and Ghost Quarters for Wolf Runs (don't waste them on Inkmoths). Archon of Justice can deal with anything (but usually it's a Garruk, Primeval, or Wolf Run), but because he and the Phoenix fly, they can also be an answer to Garruk and Inkmoths in general. Wurmcoil simply holds them off until you draw a Wrath, and notably can kill Dungrove. Metamorph is cast in response to a Primeval, or in an emergency, a Wurmcoil (or on your own Wurmcoil). You then fetch your Ghost Quarters and take out their Wolf Runs, which are a huge threat to you. Without Wolf Runs, they are soooo much weaker, and you'll be at the advantage. They might try to Beast Within your Mimic Vats, because if you get a Solemn Simulacrum, Wurmcoil, Titan, or Acidic Slime under one, you'll be tough for them to deal with. This is where Buried Ruin comes in. It makes sure you have more Vats than they can answer, so you can seal the deal. Try to get a Wurmcoil (yours or theirs) under it, then just keep buidling up tokens every turn to block until you draw a flyer (or revive a killed Phoenix) and kill them with that.
---VS UB Control---
Let me just say from the beginning that your mainboard is pretty set against them, but postboard you probably want to take out your Geistflames for Oblivion Rings. Whether you trade your Phyrexian Rebirths for more Rings is up to you, but they give you a creature and put something in your Vat. It depends on how many Wurmcoils and Grave Titans your opponent is using, how afraid you are of Mana Leak, and how much you feel you need your Vat to win. Anyway, just try to resolve a Vat, Archon, or Phoenix before they cast their finisher. Archon can race or nullify their first finisher. Phoenix can race them and come back if they kill it if they don't Dissipate it. Vat will just kill them if you ever resolve a Wurmcoil, a Metamorph, an Archon, or a Wrath. So anyway, that's the early game. After they start casting finishers, you want to either Wrath, or cast a Wurmcoil, Metamorph, or Archon in response. You have more answers than they have finishers, and if they run out of business you start pressuring them with a Phoenix. Importantly, your 2 Buried Ruins helps to increase your threat density by giving you more Vats, Metamorphs, or Wurmcoils, while making Phoenix easier to revive.
---VS Birthing Pod---
Use your Oblivion Rings and Archons+Wrath to remove their Pods. Get their 187 creatures under Mimic Vat and abuse the heck out of their abilities. Geistflame their Phantasmal Images, and Metamorph anything you can't otherwise deal with. Simple.
---VS Aggro---
Now we come to the reason this isn't yet a Tier 1 deck. Aggro will walk all over you Game 1. The good news is, your sideboard is sooooo brutal on them you stand a good shot at taking the next two games. Obviously everything in the board is good, so just use what you think you need. Forced Worship deserves special mention, because it might look janky but is actually quite insane. You only care about attacking, so it basically deals with their biggest threat for 2 mana. They play a bigger threat? Move it. You finally draw the board wipe? Return it to hand at the end of their turn, wipe on yours, and you already have an answer for their next and later on best creature. It's also very important vs Angelic Destiny, because it basically screws over whatever they cast it on. Now, for what to remove, I like taking out the Phoenixes, Vats, and Metamorphs, and probably the Geistflames or Manaliths.
----------------------
I'll also throw in a build I tried for fun that actually did beat Wolf Run Green a few times (20% I'd say). It's not great, but it's something that might interest a few of you, plus it's fun to play.
The red is all in the sideboard, and is the usual Whipflares, Slagstorms, Blasphemous Acts, etc.
Anyway, according to my tests against my usual gauntlet, the first build pretty good, and has the same ability to trump just about any deck in the long game as the Firemane Angel build I mentioned earlier. The only things I don't like about it are the weakness to artifact destruction and the inability to be strong against aggro Game 1. I'd seriously recommend it to anyone who is set on playing RW board control though, or just anyone who wants to beat Wolf Run at their own game for kicks.
I'll really have to try this out today. Soooooo…it might work, I don't want to say anything before I test.
So my thoughts right now are that this is a very different archetype with the same game plan. But I really will see if it does it differently, better, or worse. For now, my main issue is that this really isn't Grenadier. The Grenadier shell is different, and you are missing one of our main win-cons. BUT! Hold on to your horses, I will test the heck outta this. For now, it can stay here. If I think it plays the same way but is different enough, I will ask you to move your post into a new thread (buuut credits for this and *maybe* a link would be nice). If I think it is similar enough, I will edit it into the OP. It would have its own section and it's own little primer. For now, it looks fine, but I AM taken aback by the lack of MB Slagstorms. Will test.
The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
Yeah, you know, I really did try to keep the Slagstorms in there. They were the last thing to be cut, and very reluctantly, I might add. They did so much to help against aggro Game 1, they killed a Dungrove and maybe a Bird or Llanowar here and there, and they can hit planeswalkers directly, which is nice. I just really needed every card in there to be solid against Wolf Run, which is everywhere, with the possible exception of the Geistflames, which are still really good. The last cards I cut were 2 Slagstorms for 2 Geistflames. If you don't care about the Wolf Run match, by all means take out the Vats and Metamorphs, or something, and put in Slagstorms and Whipflares. Just keep in mind that while it will help the aggro matchup, it will hurt against everything else. Aggro is less common right now, so that's why all the red wipe is in the board, but obviously tailor it to your metagame.
I wouldn't mind this being its own thread, but just out of curiousity, what would you say defines Grenadier that this build is lacking? I get the no Doomed Travelers/Perilous Myrs/Goblin Arsonist, but are these really necessary and the heart of the build? My version does give plenty of value when stuff hits the 'yard, between Archons, Wurmcoils, Vats, and Metamorphs copying Archons and Wurmcoils...plus it's not like Phoenix minds being killed either.
Yeah, you know, I really did try to keep the Slagstorms in there. They were the last thing to be cut, and very reluctantly, I might add. They did so much to help against aggro Game 1, they killed a Dungrove and maybe a Bird of Llanowar here and there, and they can hit planeswalkers directly, which is nice. I just really needed every card in there to be solid against Wolf Run, which is everywhere, with the possible exception of the Geistflames, which are still really good. The last cards I cut were 2 Slagstorms for 2 Geistflames. If you don't care about the Wolf Run match, by all means take out the Vats and Metamorphs, or something, and put in Slagstorms and Whipflares. Just keep in mind that while it will help the aggro matchup, it will hurt against everything else. Aggro is less common right now, so that's why all the red wipe is in the board. But obviously tailor it to your metagame.
I wouldn't mind this being its own thread, but just out of curiousity, what would you say defines Grenadier that this build is lacking?
Looking at your list- Grenadier needs to CONSTANTLY control the board. You need guys that have value when they die, and needs win-cons that absolutely WRECK aggro (such as Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull, Elspeth Tirel). You need your 75 to be sweeper-resilient. Simply, your list might have all of these, along with a good Wolf-Run MU. I will test. Most likely, it won't be different enough to have it's own thread, but idk.
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The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
As much as you love it, for some reason I hate Angelic Destiny. So I crafted up a list with a lot more smaller beaters - it takes its dandy time winning while controlling the board quite nicely the whole time.
I thought 10 Sweepers was getting too much so I decided to cut whipflare. When I finally find a list I like and end up making a sideboard there will definitly be a few in the side but I think 4 slagstorm 3 DoJ mainboard is plenty of sweepers.
I'm really wondering how this deck would do if you replaced the Elspeths with Gideon and Chandra; this is simply an alternate suggestion due to Elspeth's spike in price yet chandra and gideon's massive drop in price.
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Decks:
Modern: (P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R) UWU Fish UWU WB Disruption BW
Standard: WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR WWW Humans WWW
Commander: BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB GGG Thrun Tron GGG WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
I'm really wondering how this deck would do if you replaced the Elspeths with Gideon and Chandra; this is simply an alternate suggestion due to Elspeth's spike in price yet chandra and gideon's massive drop in price.
I know, its sad that Elspeth suddenly doubled in price. Chandra doesn't work here, Gideon Jura is fine but it's not the same. All in all, sure, you can cut an Elpesth or two for him, but you still want at least 1 Elspeth Tirel in.
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The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
In my long night of play testing, I have found Elspeth to be a winmore card. She very rarely helped when the position was even. But that's just me in a sample size of ~20 games against Wolf Run Boring and Haunted Boring.
In my long night of play testing, I have found Elspeth to be a winmore card. She very rarely helped when the position was even. But that's just me in a sample size of ~20 games against Wolf Run Boring and Haunted Boring.
Well we'll try to work this out. For now, how about testing some Gideons? Maybe a sample size of +1 Gideon +1 Batterskull +1 Manor Gargoyle in place of Elspeth.
Ok, did some serious testing tonight, great results. Mortarpod is amazing. Period.
Matches against Wolf Run (ok MU just don't let their prime times stick), loved Volley and Perilous Myr, MBC, NOCTAL, UW Control, and G/W Humans as well as Township Tokens. My most amazing game here (against NOCTAL):
T1 Traveler. T2 Mortar, attack with Traveler. T3 I attack with Traveler, he plays Civilized Scholar. I EOT kill it with Mortarpod. T4 I slap a Destiny onto Doomed Traveler. Attack. He goes and plays some other thing, I kill it. T6 I play Wurmcoil. Attack with Traveler. On his turn, he plays BSZ. My Traveler down to 1/2 (had a Mortarpod Equipped) and Wurmcoil at 2/2. T7: Attack with guys, sac Traveler to trigger morbid, Volley. GG.
The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
Well we'll try to work this out. For now, how about testing some Gideons? Maybe a sample size of +1 Gideon +1 Batterskull +1 Manor Gargoyle in place of Elspeth.
Ok, did some serious testing tonight, great results. Mortarpod is amazing. Period.
Matches against Wolf Run (ok MU just don't let their prime times stick), loved Volley and Perilous Myr, MBC, NOCTAL, UW Control, and G/W Humans as well as Township Tokens. My most amazing game here (against NOCTAL):
T1 Traveler. T2 Mortar, attack with Traveler. T3 I attack with Traveler, he plays Civilized Scholar. I EOT kill it with Mortarpod. T4 I slap a Destiny onto Doomed Traveler. Attack. He goes and plays some other thing, I kill it. T6 I play Wurmcoil. Attack with Traveler. On his turn, he plays BSZ. My Traveler down to 1/2 (had a Mortarpod Equipped) and Wurmcoil at 2/2. T7: Attack with guys, sac Traveler to trigger morbid, Volley. GG.
How is Manor Gargoyle testing out for you? I definitely like Mortarpod.
Note: Friends of mine are guys from my college whose decks I've played many many times.
Decks I've played against:
Mono-Blue Aggro (Illusions and Counters) - Friend of mine. Not that big of a threat unless he gets out Lord of Unreal and all of his bears quickly, or a large Phantasmal Dragon at the end. A timely Day or Elspeth works wonders.
Tempered Steel (Hero, Inkmoth, Spellskite) - Friend of mine. He's been killing me the past few days, even with Divine Offering and Rolling Tremblor. Turn three deaths are common, and now he's running spot removal with Galvanic Blast as well, which wouldn't be a problem until he waits for the bird to come. Thinking about Urgent Exorcisms for TS removal, but not sure how the SB would look.
Geist-Blade - 0-2. This was before I had Divine Offerings in the SB. Came close every first turn, but second turn decimated me.
Mono-Blue Control (Illusions) - Went 1-2, with the win coming from and overpowered Wurmcoil + Batterskull + Angelic. Otherwise he milled me or out-countered me.
Mono-Black Reanimator Zombies (Geth, Cemetery Reaper) - 2-1, Perfect final game. The game I lost was because of mulling down to 4 just to get Mountain, Clifftop, Plains, Slag, and didn't draw anything else.
Other Decks in the meta-game that I know of:
BWR Planeswalkers Control - Karn, Sorin, Chandra. No Creatures that I've seen, but all of my friends (Mono-Blue Aggro and Galvanic Steel) have died to this guy. What I'm worried about is dealing with the Walkers quickly enough and not having enough removal for them.
Tempered Steel (Traditional + Infect SB) - Not as worried, since I've been playing against my friend, but again I'm slightly worried about removal.
I think there's a self-mill deck and an invisiblade too, but I haven't played them.
Next two were just my buddy back home playing his decks he's been crafting. He doesn't actually play in my meta, but he scared me enough to post them here.
Mono-Green Dungrove Ramp - 0-5. Turn 1 Land and Elves, Turn 2 Land Elves, Turn Three Land Solemn Land, Turn Four Dungrove. I never got a Ring. He killed me with Carnage Wurms twice (hit me, bloodthirst a second). He'd have at least 6 forests by turn 5 consistently.
Blue Bringback Infect - 1-4. You would think unblockable would be fine. Unblighted Agent, Inkmoth, Phyrexian Juggernaut. I beat him only when he could not get his agents back out through a Surgical Extraction. I also wasn't using Divine Offerings here, but I think if I had them I still would lose 2-3 because he played so quickly.
Here is my deck currently:
4 Doomed Traveler
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Perilous Myr
3 Roc Egg
Spells:
3 Whipflare
3 Rolling Tremblor
3 Day of Judgment
3 Angelic Destiny
2 Batterskull
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Slagstorm
2 Elspeth Tirel
Land:
4 Clifftop Retreat
10 Plains
10 Mountain
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rage Thrower
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Divine Offering
4 Bonds of Faith
Bonds of Faith are temporary as I was testing them (against the Galvanic Steel). They didn't really work against this deck but I think they could against others (that aren't hexproof). I'm thinking about trying to find more Batterskulls and Elspeths, as well as another OB and DoJ, getting rid of the Wurmcoils and Doomed Travelers, but I still need creatures. I also think Timely Reinforcements would be quite useful.
Honestly, when outside of FNM, I've been killing every other deck. RDW, Spirits, Zombies, Werewolves, Illusions, Control, Combo. I know this deck is killer. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Any thoughts?
Also questions for the Maker (all questions are serious inquiry for learning):
Why have you put Gideon in the deck?
How does having only 4 drawable creatures affect your early game, and do you ever run into trouble with much faster decks?
How do you deal with large creatures besides praying for DoJ or OB with all your opponent's mana tapped?
Why did you take out Destiny after first lauding it as the win condition?
P.S. I've only been playing since this past summer (when M12 came out). It just may be that I'm inexperienced.
Hypermind in Burlington, NC
Myriad Games in Salem, NH
Pandemonium in Boston, MA
Playing (Standard):
RWXJor Kadeen(EDH)XWR
Gideon is a beast for removal and fast attack that can avoid sweepers.
But anyways.
1) 3 MB Temblors? With all of the others? This could be alone why you're losing. I'd cut for an Elspeth and 2 Gideon. Good for SB vs. Temp Steel though.
2) 3 Roc Egg? That's unnecessary. Definitely take it at least one out for maybe an Oblivion Ring, because
3) 3 Oblivion Ring just doesn't work. Play 4.
4) Destiny, destiny, destiny. No one else should cut it. I just got bored and wanted to test. Play 3.
5) Problems with aggro? PROBLEMS WITH AGGRO!? Good joke! Why would I have a problem with aggro. Shut down their early game. Period.
6) I have a problem with you not running Sylvok Lifestaff. That card is really amazing on a Perilous Myr or especially on a Doomed Traveler as not only do you gain 6 life, but the flying token just got its power doubled.
I hope this helps.
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Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
Ok, taking the suggestions into consideration, this is what I will be running tonight:
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Perilous Myr
3/4 Oblivion Ring
4 Day of Judgment
4 Slagstorm
3 Whipflare
2 Batterskull
3 Angelic Destiny
2 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Gideon Jura
4 Clifftop Retreat
10 Mountain
10 Plains
2 Rage Thrower
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Rolling Tremblor
2 Brimstone Volley
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Divine Offering
Only running 1 Gideon cause I only have 1, and I'm going to try to obtain another OB before FNM starts. Thoughts?
Hypermind in Burlington, NC
Myriad Games in Salem, NH
Pandemonium in Boston, MA
Playing (Standard):
RWXJor Kadeen(EDH)XWR
Nexus is something that has been bugging me as well. I might try Gut Shot or Geistflame in the SB.
Thrun, you just want to catch them off guard. Use sweepers when they have no land.
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Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
1. Why splash red when you barely have any red in there? Could easily replace all red with divine reckoning and use indestructible stuff.
2. Why bother with red when you could use black for reanimations and black sun's zenith?
3. How come nobody uses the fiend hunter insurance with sun titans/wurmcoil engines instead of just board wiping stupidly?
If you used black instead of red, you could use Reassembling skeleton, Sheoldred, unburial rites.
(P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R)
UWU Fish UWU
WB Disruption BW
Standard:
WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR
WWW Humans WWW
Commander:
BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB
GGG Thrun Tron GGG
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Why is desperate ravings a good card?
Yeah, BW is basically the direction I ended up going when I first started testing this deck, which btw, was the first deck I built once Innistrad was released, and I REALLY wanted it to work. Even so, BW wasn't strong enough, so now I play GBR, go figure. Obviously Grenadier is good against aggro, so if you expect that, it might be the perfect deck. The problems come in the form of cards such as Inkmoth (as has been noted), Beast Within on your O-Rings, Wurmcoil Engine, most planeswalkers, UB Control in general, Lashwrithe, and Thrun+Swords, and you can expect to see all of these at the top tables. Back during Ravnica, I played a deck with a similar concept to great success, but back then we had durable tools such as Firemane Angel, Genju of the Spires, Genju of the Fields (you can stack the psuedo-lifelink for an absurd life buffer that most decks couldn't outrace), Shard Phoenix, and Myojin of Cleansing Fire, so we could dominate the long game vs. just about any deck. If anyone can think of something like those that's around today and gives a better long game than anything Wolf Run can muster, I think this deck may have a shot. Batterskull and Angelic Destiny are good starts, but I think you need something else, especially something that gets past counterspells like Firemane, Genjus, and Shard Phoenix did. Maybe Kuldotha Phoenix with a ton of equipment? Swords/Batterskulls/Sylvok Lifestaffs are all decent options, and you already run an artifact in Perilous Myr. Manor Gargoyle and Glint Hawk Idol survive your wipes, and other Living Weapons besides Batterskull (Mortarpod or Strandwalker maybe?) can help defend you and be pumped to attack, while still fueling Kuldotha Phoenix. Solemn Simulacrum gives you much-needed value, carries equipment, and doesn't mind getting wiped, and Inkmoth Nexus would give you the last 4 artifacts. It's a shame we don't have Stoneforge Mystic. I'm also somewhat afraid of Dissipate still, especially with Snapcaster and so much quality dig (Think Twice, Desperate Ravings, Forbidden Alchemy) around. I'll post again if I get around to testing this idea.
So to summarize: Key cards to test in support of Kuldotha Phoenix include Glint Hawk Idol, Manor Gargoyle, Mortarpod, Strandwalker, Batterskull, Perilous Myr, Solemn Simulacrum, Sylvok Lifestaff, Sword of Feast and Famine, Wurmcoil Engine, Phyrexian Rebirth, Shrine of Loyal Legions, Myr Battlesphere, and Inkmoth Nexus.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
4 Perilous Myr
2 Sun Titan
3 Mortarpod
1 Batterskull
3 Angelic Destiny
4 Slagstorm
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Day of Judgement
3 Whipflare
4 Clifftop Retreat
12 Plains
8 Mountain
I'll see how it tests but if anyone has any initial feedback I'd love to hear it.
UW Control :symu::symw:
UWr Control :symu::symw::symr:
You, my friend, are a boss for typing all of this up. Thoughts:
Mortarpod seems purdy chill, actually funny in conjunction with Sylvok Lifestaff.
Manor Gargoyle actually seems like something that will be played. I'll be testing. Also, it stops Inkmoth Nexus.
Phyrexian Rebirth sucks. D:
I will really have to get back to playing this deck as my main deck.
Kinda "meh" about Sun Titans with so little to get…better replaced with moar Batterskull (as I notice you're only running one) or maybe Manor Gargoyles.
I really don't know about Brimstone…
Mortarpod seems kewl, don't know about it though.
So I'll be testing this:
4 Myr Sire
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Mortarpod
2 Batterskull
1 Shrine of Loyal Legions
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Angelic Destiny
4 Slagstorm
3 Sylvok Lifestaff
3 Day of Judgment
13 Plains
8 Mountains
So obviously it is relatively creature-heavy and I expect anywhere from great success to failure. Hopefully I shall not see too many Dismembers hatin' on my Manor Gargoyles. So I think this should work better.
EDIT: Ohh, don't forget Timely Reinforcements.
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Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
Yeah I agree Sun Titan wasn't that strong in testing--I was thinking of setting up some Perilous Myr+Mortarpod+Sun Titan shenanigans but that's probably just win more anyway. I'll probabyl switch them to Wurmcoils like you did.
Mortarpod is pretty awesome, although without sun titan i'll probably drop it down to 1 or 2 as well.
I liked batterskull--and I'll look at Manor Gargoyle because he seems pretty strong as well.
&I thought brimstone would be a good addition due to the fact creatures will be dying all the time, and 5 damage for 3 is really good. I like it in the deck, The games i won seemed to be pretty long and drawn out and every point of damage counted, so 5 is a big chunk you don't have to worry about later.
Edit: 3 pyroclasm in your deck is supposed to be 3 DoJ i'm assuming?
Edit: I feel like Timely is only really good as a sideboard card, if that. I feel like it's only good against aggro which this deck already has a great matchup against. It's literally worthless against control.
UW Control :symu::symw:
UWr Control :symu::symw::symr:
Don't judge me.
I guess you're right about Timely. I probably will replace it with Mortarpods.
What I love about Mortarpods is that you always get value outta your creatures.
Will test Brimstone.
EDIT: Hellz yah pg5!!!
EDIT2: I think you should have 3 Elspeth in your list. Having 3 of it really does make a huge difference, it's your main win-con aside from Destiny.
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Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
Sun titan
Fiend hunter -> Sun titan
DoJ
You lose nothing...
(P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R)
UWU Fish UWU
WB Disruption BW
Standard:
WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR
WWW Humans WWW
Commander:
BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB
GGG Thrun Tron GGG
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Why is desperate ravings a good card?
Fiend Hunter really doesn't work here…not only is it TERRIBLE where we are constantly killing our own creatures, but it's only OK interaction is with Sun Titan, which is actually bad here.
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Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
It's worth a shot, but Elspeth IS your main win-con.
So I'm thinking without the Elspeth, max out on your Destinies. Throw in that Gideon for sure, and throw in a Shrine of Loyal Legions for long control games that Elspeth would have dominated. After that, let's see your decklist for some fine-tuning. Thanks!
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Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
I found a build of RW board control that has game against Wolf Run, UB Control, Birthing Pod, and Humans aggro. Haven't tested anything else yet, but if it can handle those 4, it can handle most things that matter. The trick is that it can't have a good matchup against aggro AND the other 3 at the same time, but your sideboard is SOOO good against aggro (which is less dominant now anyway), that you can be pretty confident you'll take games 2 and 3. Against Wolf Run you have around a 50/50, and you walk all over UB Control. I'd say you have a 50-55% win ratio against the field with this build...at LEAST, which isn't bad at all. The trick is that you shouldn't try to overpower their creatures, which will usually be stronger, but instead you should use creatures that can kill and copy theirs. Here's what I'm working with. Still might need some tweaking. And just a note: It's not good at all against Ancient Grudge, but there's not much I can do about that.
7 Mountain
7 Plains
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Buried Ruin
Creatures
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Archon of Justice
4 Kuldotha Phoenix
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Manalith
4 Mimic Vat
Sorceries
4 Day of Judgment
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
Instants
2 Geistflame
4 Whipflare
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Slagstorm
3 Forced Worship
Just a note: The 4 blue mana sources are just to keep Phyrexian Metamorph from harming you, but they give you a distinct advantage by tricking people into thinking you run Mana Leak or something. Just act like you have a Mana Leak and you're deciding whether to use it. It will really throw some players off.
So here's how it works, matchup by matchup:
---VS. Wolf Run---
You have Geistflames for their mana creatures and Inkmoths, and Ghost Quarters for Wolf Runs (don't waste them on Inkmoths). Archon of Justice can deal with anything (but usually it's a Garruk, Primeval, or Wolf Run), but because he and the Phoenix fly, they can also be an answer to Garruk and Inkmoths in general. Wurmcoil simply holds them off until you draw a Wrath, and notably can kill Dungrove. Metamorph is cast in response to a Primeval, or in an emergency, a Wurmcoil (or on your own Wurmcoil). You then fetch your Ghost Quarters and take out their Wolf Runs, which are a huge threat to you. Without Wolf Runs, they are soooo much weaker, and you'll be at the advantage. They might try to Beast Within your Mimic Vats, because if you get a Solemn Simulacrum, Wurmcoil, Titan, or Acidic Slime under one, you'll be tough for them to deal with. This is where Buried Ruin comes in. It makes sure you have more Vats than they can answer, so you can seal the deal. Try to get a Wurmcoil (yours or theirs) under it, then just keep buidling up tokens every turn to block until you draw a flyer (or revive a killed Phoenix) and kill them with that. Oh, and Metamorph can kill Thrun for you, and can also become a SoFaF to use against them.
---VS UB Control---
Let me just say from the beginning that your mainboard is pretty set against them, but postboard you probably want to take out your Geistflames for Oblivion Rings. Whether you trade your Phyrexian Rebirths for more Rings is up to you, but they give you a creature and put something in your Vat. It depends on how many Wurmcoils and Grave Titans your opponent is using, how afraid you are of Mana Leak, and how much you feel you need your Vat to win. Anyway, just try to resolve a Vat, Archon, or Phoenix before they cast their finisher. Archon can race or nullify their first finisher. Phoenix can race them and come back if they kill it if they don't Dissipate it. Vat will just kill them if you ever resolve a Wurmcoil, a Metamorph, an Archon, or a Wrath. So anyway, that's the early game. After they start casting finishers, you want to either Wrath, or cast a Wurmcoil, Metamorph, or Archon in response. You have more answers than they have finishers, and if they run out of business you start pressuring them with a Phoenix. If you Vat a Sphinx, create the token on THEIR turn before they draw, and you'll get 2 cards and feed even more off of them if they try to dig. Importantly, your 2 Buried Ruins helps to increase your threat density by giving you more Vats, Metamorphs, amd Wurmcoils, while making Phoenix easier to revive.
---VS Birthing Pod---
Use your Oblivion Rings and Archons+Wrath to remove their Pods. Get their 187 creatures under Mimic Vat and abuse the heck out of their abilities. Geistflame their Phantasmal Images, and Metamorph anything you can't otherwise deal with. Simple.
---VS Aggro---
Now we come to the reason this isn't yet a Tier 1 deck. Aggro will walk all over you Game 1. The good news is, your sideboard is sooooo brutal on them you stand a good shot at taking the next two games. Obviously everything in the board is good, so just use what you think you need. Forced Worship deserves special mention, because it might look janky but is actually quite insane. You only care about attacking, so it basically deals with their biggest threat for 2 mana. They play a bigger threat? Move it. You finally draw the board wipe? Return it to hand at the end of their turn, wipe on yours, and you already have an answer for their next and later on best creature. It's also very important vs Angelic Destiny, because it basically screws over whatever they cast it on. Now, for what to remove, I like taking out the Phoenixes, Vats, and Metamorphs, and probably the Geistflames or Manaliths.
----------------------
I'll also throw in a build I tried for fun that actually did beat Wolf Run Green a few times (20% I'd say). It's not great, but it's something that might interest a few of you, plus it's fun to play.
8 Mountain
8 Plains
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Buried Ruin
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Artifacts
4 Crown of Empires
4 Scepter of Empires
4 Throne of Empires
4 Manalith
4 Day of Judgment
3 Phyrexian Rebirth
The red is all in the sideboard, and is the usual Whipflares, Slagstorms, Blasphemous Acts, etc.
The Empires set pieces aren't useless either. Crown disables Wolf Run, Titan, and Wurmcoil Scepter keeps Garruk from going ultimate. Throne holds off Dungrove if they don't have Wolf Run. It's not totally impossible to get all 3 either with help from Buried Ruins.
Anyway, according to my tests against my usual gauntlet, the first build is pretty good, and has a similar ability to trump just about any deck in the long game as the Firemane Angel build I mentioned earlier. The only things I don't like about it are the weakness to artifact destruction and the inability to be strong against aggro Game 1. I'd seriously recommend it to anyone who is set on playing RW board control though, or just anyone who wants to beat Wolf Run at their own game for kicks.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
I'll really have to try this out today. Soooooo…it might work, I don't want to say anything before I test.
So my thoughts right now are that this is a very different archetype with the same game plan. But I really will see if it does it differently, better, or worse. For now, my main issue is that this really isn't Grenadier. The Grenadier shell is different, and you are missing one of our main win-cons. BUT! Hold on to your horses, I will test the heck outta this. For now, it can stay here. If I think it plays the same way but is different enough, I will ask you to move your post into a new thread (buuut credits for this and *maybe* a link would be nice). If I think it is similar enough, I will edit it into the OP. It would have its own section and it's own little primer. For now, it looks fine, but I AM taken aback by the lack of MB Slagstorms. Will test.
Sig by Miraculous Recovery Signatures, avvie by Hakai Studios. Thanks!
Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
I wouldn't mind this being its own thread, but just out of curiousity, what would you say defines Grenadier that this build is lacking? I get the no Doomed Travelers/Perilous Myrs/Goblin Arsonist, but are these really necessary and the heart of the build? My version does give plenty of value when stuff hits the 'yard, between Archons, Wurmcoils, Vats, and Metamorphs copying Archons and Wurmcoils...plus it's not like Phoenix minds being killed either.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Looking at your list- Grenadier needs to CONSTANTLY control the board. You need guys that have value when they die, and needs win-cons that absolutely WRECK aggro (such as Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull, Elspeth Tirel). You need your 75 to be sweeper-resilient. Simply, your list might have all of these, along with a good Wolf-Run MU. I will test. Most likely, it won't be different enough to have it's own thread, but idk.
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Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
I thought 10 Sweepers was getting too much so I decided to cut whipflare. When I finally find a list I like and end up making a sideboard there will definitly be a few in the side but I think 4 slagstorm 3 DoJ mainboard is plenty of sweepers.
Here's the list, lemme know what you think:
8 Mountain
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Perilous Myr
4 Glint Hawk Idol
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 Sun Titan
2 Batterskull
1 Slyvok Lifestaff
3 Elspeth Tirel
4 Slagstorm
3 Day of Judgement
4 Oblivion Ring
UW Control :symu::symw:
UWr Control :symu::symw::symr:
(P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R)
UWU Fish UWU
WB Disruption BW
Standard:
WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR
WWW Humans WWW
Commander:
BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB
GGG Thrun Tron GGG
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Why is desperate ravings a good card?
I know, its sad that Elspeth suddenly doubled in price. Chandra doesn't work here, Gideon Jura is fine but it's not the same. All in all, sure, you can cut an Elpesth or two for him, but you still want at least 1 Elspeth Tirel in.
Sig by Miraculous Recovery Signatures, avvie by Hakai Studios. Thanks!
Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
Well we'll try to work this out. For now, how about testing some Gideons? Maybe a sample size of +1 Gideon +1 Batterskull +1 Manor Gargoyle in place of Elspeth.
Ok, did some serious testing tonight, great results. Mortarpod is amazing. Period.
Used this list:
4 Perilous Myr
2 Manor Gargoyle
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Batterskull
3 Mortarpod
3 Angelic Destiny
4 Slagstorm
3 Day of Judgment
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Brimstone Volley
13 Plains
7 Mountains
Brimstone Volley was really cool.
Matches against Wolf Run (ok MU just don't let their prime times stick), loved Volley and Perilous Myr, MBC, NOCTAL, UW Control, and G/W Humans as well as Township Tokens. My most amazing game here (against NOCTAL):
T1 Traveler. T2 Mortar, attack with Traveler. T3 I attack with Traveler, he plays Civilized Scholar. I EOT kill it with Mortarpod. T4 I slap a Destiny onto Doomed Traveler. Attack. He goes and plays some other thing, I kill it. T6 I play Wurmcoil. Attack with Traveler. On his turn, he plays BSZ. My Traveler down to 1/2 (had a Mortarpod Equipped) and Wurmcoil at 2/2. T7: Attack with guys, sac Traveler to trigger morbid, Volley. GG.
Sig by Miraculous Recovery Signatures, avvie by Hakai Studios. Thanks!
Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
How is Manor Gargoyle testing out for you? I definitely like Mortarpod.