I don't think ponder has ever been underrated. It's like basic land, people add it to their deck when it's necessarily.
Yup, a blue spell is like a basic land. And I believe you mean a 'necessity.'
Ponder is a very, very, very good card, because everyone would run a 56 card deck if they could. That is why the top deck effectively runs 52 cards, and sometimes can flash those back to run even less than that. The more of the good cards in your deck you see, the better. If I could run a 20 card aggro deck, I would (especially while Goblin Guide was in). Or even a 20 card Delver deck, granted, it wouldn't be the best deck in the format.
The thread isn't about that though is it, the thread is about judging how other people judge cards.
if you cannot properly evaluate the card, how are you supposed to evaluate other people's evaluations of the card?
If I were to pick a card that is undervalued right now it would be mana leak, because so many people pronounced cavern of souls would be its demise, but seem to have forgotten that delver gets its offense running fast enough to put virtually any deck in the format, and they force you to sweep them, and when you think about the tool you are going to use to sweep them you know have to think about sweeping them on turn 4 or 5, through a mana leak. Ask yourself what in standard sweeps delver, geist, splicer, and angel, on turn 4 or 5, through a mana leak? Delver players are moving the leak into their sideboards and cutting the numbers and I don't really think they should be.
If I were to pick a card that is overvalued right now, it would be huntsmaster, only because of his meteoric plummet from its perch of being strong vs delver to being totally outclassed vs delver thanks to restoration angel.
Overrated = Tragic SlipDelver of Secrets two cards that needs condition to be good, once the condition is met these cards are quite good, but i think they are Overrated
Most underplayed, underrated card = Skinrender This guys eats everything in the format, or just reduce giants to human size creatures, he's good against "bounce" cards, he's Huntmaster's nemesis. I truly love this card and will miss it in October !
I would agree that Topor Orb is one of the most underrated cards in standard today. It just stops so many cards, most importantly Blade Splicer, Resto Angel and Snapcaster. Many people dont expect it, and unless they have artifact hate their battle plan is very disrupted.
For overrated id probably say Runechanters Pike. Its not a bad card, but I dont see why you would play one over a Sword of War and Peace.
For overrated id probably say Runechanters Pike. Its not a bad card, but I dont see why you would play one over a Sword of War and Peace.
Pike can be better than sword of war and peace in many cases. For example, against a green based aggro deck, the first strike is quite relevant. Also, at 2 mana, its light years more efficient than sword. It can consistently come down on turn 2 without ruining your tempo. Often times, on turn 3 you wouldn't want to tap out for sword. This makes sword a 5 drop per say in some cases, since you'd want to play and equip it past turn 3. In a meta filled with lingering souls and humans however, pike does not shine as much as sword of war and peace. Pike is also insane and harder to deal with than sword of war and peace in delver mirrors because it can come down so early and turn anything they play into a threat. Creatures are much harder to deal with if pike comes down turn 2:/
Thinking about sideboarding 4 combust - works on Snapcaster, Delver and Angel. What do you guys thinks?
well if all you play is snapcaster, delver, and angels then sure. but if your running red and you want something that eats creatures for your SB i would suggest slagstorm
Thinking about sideboarding 4 combust - works on Snapcaster, Delver and Angel. What do you guys thinks?
Combust is great against delver, if they're trying to ride the one threat to victory. It's not so good when they're holding Resto Ranger in hand ready to cast it (it basically shuts the card off). Slagstorm is definitely better, given the fact it hits geist of saint traft, snappy, delver, and the pesky angel won't save their critters (aside from giving a mana leak or dissipate flashback), but it's more counterable. Whipflare is better, as it's both less counterable and still gets there. The only concern is the Blade Splicer variants. If a 3/3 golem doesn't bother you, though, Whipflare is the way to go.
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"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." -Albert Einstein
Overrated: ponder and vapor snag
they are both good, but are being played so much because of the delver deck: spme here are saying vapor snag is very good because of the 1 life loss, but really... did anyone play that before delver?
ponder: why are some people (pros) playing ponder in solar flare??? they bend their mana bases toward a first turn ponder, but they could just run more evolving wilds, more m12 lands, less scars lands and use ponder slots for actual cards...
most underrtated: inferno titan. it is just awesome in the meta and people don't play him in anything besides ramp
Overrated: Huntmaster of the Fells. This is basically a glorified speed bump
Most Overrated Card: Bloodgift Demon. A 5/4 flyer for 5 mana with a built in phyrexian arena !?. Every black deck should be playing it. Go give it a playtest and I promise you will get hooked.
Overrated: ponder and vapor snag
they are both good, but are being played so much because of the delver deck: spme here are saying vapor snag is very good because of the 1 life loss, but really... did anyone play that before delver?
ponder: why are some people (pros) playing ponder in solar flare??? they bend their mana bases toward a first turn ponder, but they could just run more evolving wilds, more m12 lands, less scars lands and use ponder slots for actual cards...
most underrtated: inferno titan. it is just awesome in the meta and people don't play him in anything besides ramp
Because the pros value CONSISTENCY. Ponder in your deck cantrips, sets up your draws, and can help avert manascrew and manaflood, or help find a card you need. Ponder really is important to a lot of decks, and having it in any deck adds consistency. Solar Flare players should play ponder. Anyone playing blue should play ponder.
Vapor Snag wasn't played because aggro-control didn't exist. It fits perfect in aggro control, because it generates tempo, can negate an opponent's play, save your creature, add damage... Vapor Snag goes in delver. It doesn't go in many other decks.
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"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." -Albert Einstein
Because the pros value CONSISTENCY. Ponder in your deck cantrips, sets up your draws, and can help avert manascrew and manaflood, or help find a card you need. Ponder really is important to a lot of decks, and having it in any deck adds consistency. Solar Flare players should play ponder. Anyone playing blue should play ponder
You're arguing with someone who thinks Ponder is bad. How well can this conversation go? It would be like arguing with someone about playing Brainstorm in their Legacy RUG Delver deck.
Overrated: Cavern of Souls. Maybe it's just me, but for its price and effect, people are overglorifying it. It just seems like an ok card in non blue matchups or in nontribla decks.
Underrated:Bloodline Keeper. I used to play with Bloodgift Demon. Until I found a faster, more effective way of victory. In my metagame, people have learned that if there are two of these on the board, its over.
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"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
You're arguing with someone who thinks Ponder is bad. How well can this conversation go? It would be like arguing with someone about playing Brainstorm in their Legacy RUG Delver deck.
I'm not arguing, I'm putting it out for the newer players to see. So they don't think ponder is overrated.
Though I would think it obvious, in card games, the ability to stack your deck and replace the card you used to do it is pretty ridiculous.
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"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." -Albert Einstein
For what its worth, when people realized that ponder was replacing preordain last year, there were tons of people on MTGS saying how terrible ponder would be and how its only good in formats with fetch lands.
Lo and behold, a year later, pretty much every blue deck runs ponder.
Obviously ponder is very very good and people suck at evaluating cards.
Overrated: Huntmaster of the Fells. As much as I dont want to admit it, I feel he is overrated in the sense that I dont really understand why he is a 20$ card. Also with Immerwolf being such a key card in a werewolf deck HotF just turns into a beater.
Temporal Mastery. People were going 'OMG OMG Time Walk was reprinted!' No, it wasnt. I dont know about most people but personally I find cards like TM that are extremely conditional and dependent on having a deck built around them to not be worth it.
Cavern of Souls. Okay, cant counter the card as it is cast. So let it resolve then bounce it back to the hand or destroy it.
Underrated: Somberwald Sage. Very very useful in ramp decks. People argue she is too easily removed, well so are Birds of Paradise.
Alpha Brawl. Hard to pull off, but awesome if you do. It is essentially a board wiper for the opponent.
Curiosity. This card combined with Niv-mizzet, the Firemind won my team a two-headed giant game at the last minute right before the opposing team was going to win because it makes an infinite 1 damage loop with drawing.
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Decks:
Standard: RG Beware the Night
Vintage/Legacy: W Divine Light U Drake Tricks RXDragon Treasure (modified retail Championship deck) G Strength of Silverheart GR Puppy Howl WUBRG Bolas's Shadow
overrated: Geist of Saint Taft There is a reason why blade splicer now occupies it's spot.
underrated: Clearly Torpor Orb takes the cake on this one. It shuts down 3/4ths of the meta. I ran mono black beats with it at a GPT this weekend and took 2nd.
Underrated: Somberwald Sage. Very very useful in ramp decks. People argue she is too easily removed, well so are Birds of Paradise.
Alpha Brawl. Hard to pull off, but awesome if you do. It is essentially a board wiper for the opponent.
Curiosity. This card combined with Niv-mizzet, the Firemind won my team a two-headed giant game at the last minute right before the opposing team was going to win because it makes an infinite 1 damage loop with drawing.
If people correctly evaluated these cards, how many of each of these do you expect would be in the top 8 of a Standard Grand Prix?
Primordial Hydra - This is probably the best most overlooked and powerful SB card in the format. Other than perhaps a sword of war and peace, this guy is the most explosive turn 3-4 play in standard. G/R aggro, RUG Pod, Naya Pod, Frites, and sometimes even Wolf Run have 1-2 answers in the entire deck. He is very difficult to answer.
Bonus underated: In no way underrated except to newer players, but yes Geist of Saint Traft is that good.
Overrated:
Wolfir Avenger - Not really as good as advertised. Borderline bad. Daybreak Ranger, is better in the RG aggro, Blade Splicer is better in the Naya Build, Dungrove is better in the mono green build, and borderline ranger fills in the gap in everything in bewteen. It was highly touted as a good fit, but It often must be cast mainphase to avoid counter spells, and if you want the regeneration ability that badly, just go with Thrun, who is fantastic.
Bonus Overrated: Dungrove elder. He is one of the best creatures in the format, but it must be built around in a mono green shell. When the card pool was much shorter, the card was better. But as the card pool grows, it benefits you to go multiple colors, and this card punishes you for that. If reprinted the card will shine post rotation, as mono green seriously outclassed mono red early in the season.
Overrated: Huntmaster of the Fells, it just doesn't cut it anymore.
Unerrated: Oblivion Ring, people aren't playing enchantment removal at all except some RG decks have the random acidic slime, but it answers anything, often for good.
Geist is amazing, it hasn't been replaced by Blade Splicer, only in some lists, but Geist is still where you want to be against the mirror and any non-aggro match.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
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Yup, a blue spell is like a basic land. And I believe you mean a 'necessity.'
Ponder is a very, very, very good card, because everyone would run a 56 card deck if they could. That is why the top deck effectively runs 52 cards, and sometimes can flash those back to run even less than that. The more of the good cards in your deck you see, the better. If I could run a 20 card aggro deck, I would (especially while Goblin Guide was in). Or even a 20 card Delver deck, granted, it wouldn't be the best deck in the format.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
For example, Birthing Pod.
Players loaded up on Restoration Angel or Obliterator hate it as well... those cards can completely blow you out so it's a great answer to them.
If I were to pick a card that is undervalued right now it would be mana leak, because so many people pronounced cavern of souls would be its demise, but seem to have forgotten that delver gets its offense running fast enough to put virtually any deck in the format, and they force you to sweep them, and when you think about the tool you are going to use to sweep them you know have to think about sweeping them on turn 4 or 5, through a mana leak. Ask yourself what in standard sweeps delver, geist, splicer, and angel, on turn 4 or 5, through a mana leak? Delver players are moving the leak into their sideboards and cutting the numbers and I don't really think they should be.
If I were to pick a card that is overvalued right now, it would be huntsmaster, only because of his meteoric plummet from its perch of being strong vs delver to being totally outclassed vs delver thanks to restoration angel.
Most underplayed, underrated card = Skinrender This guys eats everything in the format, or just reduce giants to human size creatures, he's good against "bounce" cards, he's Huntmaster's nemesis. I truly love this card and will miss it in October !
For overrated id probably say Runechanters Pike. Its not a bad card, but I dont see why you would play one over a Sword of War and Peace.
Pike can be better than sword of war and peace in many cases. For example, against a green based aggro deck, the first strike is quite relevant. Also, at 2 mana, its light years more efficient than sword. It can consistently come down on turn 2 without ruining your tempo. Often times, on turn 3 you wouldn't want to tap out for sword. This makes sword a 5 drop per say in some cases, since you'd want to play and equip it past turn 3. In a meta filled with lingering souls and humans however, pike does not shine as much as sword of war and peace. Pike is also insane and harder to deal with than sword of war and peace in delver mirrors because it can come down so early and turn anything they play into a threat. Creatures are much harder to deal with if pike comes down turn 2:/
UW
well if all you play is snapcaster, delver, and angels then sure. but if your running red and you want something that eats creatures for your SB i would suggest slagstorm
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Combust is great against delver, if they're trying to ride the one threat to victory. It's not so good when they're holding Resto Ranger in hand ready to cast it (it basically shuts the card off). Slagstorm is definitely better, given the fact it hits geist of saint traft, snappy, delver, and the pesky angel won't save their critters (aside from giving a mana leak or dissipate flashback), but it's more counterable. Whipflare is better, as it's both less counterable and still gets there. The only concern is the Blade Splicer variants. If a 3/3 golem doesn't bother you, though, Whipflare is the way to go.
they are both good, but are being played so much because of the delver deck: spme here are saying vapor snag is very good because of the 1 life loss, but really... did anyone play that before delver?
ponder: why are some people (pros) playing ponder in solar flare??? they bend their mana bases toward a first turn ponder, but they could just run more evolving wilds, more m12 lands, less scars lands and use ponder slots for actual cards...
most underrtated: inferno titan. it is just awesome in the meta and people don't play him in anything besides ramp
Most Overrated Card: Bloodgift Demon. A 5/4 flyer for 5 mana with a built in phyrexian arena !?. Every black deck should be playing it. Go give it a playtest and I promise you will get hooked.
Because the pros value CONSISTENCY. Ponder in your deck cantrips, sets up your draws, and can help avert manascrew and manaflood, or help find a card you need. Ponder really is important to a lot of decks, and having it in any deck adds consistency. Solar Flare players should play ponder. Anyone playing blue should play ponder.
Vapor Snag wasn't played because aggro-control didn't exist. It fits perfect in aggro control, because it generates tempo, can negate an opponent's play, save your creature, add damage... Vapor Snag goes in delver. It doesn't go in many other decks.
You're arguing with someone who thinks Ponder is bad. How well can this conversation go? It would be like arguing with someone about playing Brainstorm in their Legacy RUG Delver deck.
Underrated:Bloodline Keeper. I used to play with Bloodgift Demon. Until I found a faster, more effective way of victory. In my metagame, people have learned that if there are two of these on the board, its over.
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
I'm not arguing, I'm putting it out for the newer players to see. So they don't think ponder is overrated.
Though I would think it obvious, in card games, the ability to stack your deck and replace the card you used to do it is pretty ridiculous.
Lo and behold, a year later, pretty much every blue deck runs ponder.
Obviously ponder is very very good and people suck at evaluating cards.
Overrated: Island
Other underrated, Praetors Grasp and Michael Jackson. Reverberate
Temporal Mastery. People were going 'OMG OMG Time Walk was reprinted!' No, it wasnt. I dont know about most people but personally I find cards like TM that are extremely conditional and dependent on having a deck built around them to not be worth it.
Cavern of Souls. Okay, cant counter the card as it is cast. So let it resolve then bounce it back to the hand or destroy it.
Underrated: Somberwald Sage. Very very useful in ramp decks. People argue she is too easily removed, well so are Birds of Paradise.
Alpha Brawl. Hard to pull off, but awesome if you do. It is essentially a board wiper for the opponent.
Curiosity. This card combined with Niv-mizzet, the Firemind won my team a two-headed giant game at the last minute right before the opposing team was going to win because it makes an infinite 1 damage loop with drawing.
Standard:
RG Beware the Night
Vintage/Legacy:
W Divine Light
U Drake Tricks
RXDragon Treasure (modified retail Championship deck)
G Strength of Silverheart
GR Puppy Howl
WUBRG Bolas's Shadow
underrated: Clearly Torpor Orb takes the cake on this one. It shuts down 3/4ths of the meta. I ran mono black beats with it at a GPT this weekend and took 2nd.
If people correctly evaluated these cards, how many of each of these do you expect would be in the top 8 of a Standard Grand Prix?
With all the powerful ETB effects running around right now, this card is more powerful than ever.
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It's very good.
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
Primordial Hydra - This is probably the best most overlooked and powerful SB card in the format. Other than perhaps a sword of war and peace, this guy is the most explosive turn 3-4 play in standard. G/R aggro, RUG Pod, Naya Pod, Frites, and sometimes even Wolf Run have 1-2 answers in the entire deck. He is very difficult to answer.
Bonus underated: In no way underrated except to newer players, but yes Geist of Saint Traft is that good.
Overrated:
Wolfir Avenger - Not really as good as advertised. Borderline bad. Daybreak Ranger, is better in the RG aggro, Blade Splicer is better in the Naya Build, Dungrove is better in the mono green build, and borderline ranger fills in the gap in everything in bewteen. It was highly touted as a good fit, but It often must be cast mainphase to avoid counter spells, and if you want the regeneration ability that badly, just go with Thrun, who is fantastic.
Bonus Overrated: Dungrove elder. He is one of the best creatures in the format, but it must be built around in a mono green shell. When the card pool was much shorter, the card was better. But as the card pool grows, it benefits you to go multiple colors, and this card punishes you for that. If reprinted the card will shine post rotation, as mono green seriously outclassed mono red early in the season.
Unerrated: Oblivion Ring, people aren't playing enchantment removal at all except some RG decks have the random acidic slime, but it answers anything, often for good.
Geist is amazing, it hasn't been replaced by Blade Splicer, only in some lists, but Geist is still where you want to be against the mirror and any non-aggro match.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control