Overrated: Huntmaster of the Fells. People are still running this guy as a 4-of and it makes me cringe. He's actually kind of bad against evolved Delver decks.
Underrated: Mental Misstep. I don't know why more people aren't running this, as it shuts down relevant spells from every deck except WRR, which is pretty unpopular right now.
BONUS Underrated: Torpor Orb. I had someone resolve this against me last FNM. I was playing UW midrange. Suddenly I was paying 3 mana for a 1/1 Blade Splicer, and Snappy and Angel weren't too hot either.
I agree with this. I tried to stay away from Mental Misstep in the Delver mirror for 2 FNMs. I got wrecked by it and now have 3 in my SB.
A guy that rode with me to the TCG Player S.D. brought Naya. In the 1st round, he ran into a guy who mainboarded Torpor Orb. That card kinda beats Naya.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
most overrated card: Sword of War and Peace
Yes we know that swords are good, they have been since they have been released...however it bothers me that deck builders constantly jam them in any deck and think it makes it competitve. It has been my experience that people will put multiple swords in any mono colored or splash colored deck.
most underrated card: Mimic Vat
There are so many good creatures in standard that if your opponent doesn't have an answer to your vat, they are probably going to lose to it. Its a mana sink sure, but a beneficial one mid to late game that can turn a losing position into a winning one.
Overrated: I honestly can't think of a ton. I don't think Geist of Saint Traft is all that scary, but I love clones. Restoration Angel and Wolfir Silverheart simply because they require more of a field to do something with, and don't prevent sweepers.
Underrated: I can think of plenty here. Drogskol Reaver - This card is stupid dirty. Handles WRR well, gains life, draws cards, works well with Pristine Talisman (also underrated). My control finisher of choice. Havengul Lich - Not in the combo sense either. He is just good to use in a deck that is grindy, with a lot of removal, a lot of clones, and snapcaster, so you reuse everything. Decks like this have 90% GY efficiency. Karn Liberated - No one likes to see him hit the board. 7 mana isn't a ton for control or ramp. I am thinking I am going to build a green ramp that focuses on Rancor, Dungrove, Karn, Garruk and Batterskull for the last 3 months of standard. Dismember - This lost a lot of light once Tragic Slip came around, but it can kill an Inkmoth, Restoration Angel, flipped Delver, flipped and equipped Delver, weaken a Prime Time for an easy block kill, and all for 1 mana and 4 life. Love this card. Essence of the Wild - This is just a cute card to me. I love it with Batterskull and Garruk, Primal Hunter. A ton of fatties with those 2 out. However, it does not work so well against Sever the Bloodline
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Overrated: I honestly can't think of a ton. I don't think Geist of Saint Traft is all that scary, but I love clones. Restoration Angel and Wolfir Silverheart simply because they require more of a field to do something with, and don't prevent sweepers.
Underrated: I can think of plenty here. Drogskol Reaver - This card is stupid dirty. Handles WRR well, gains life, draws cards, works well with Pristine Talisman (also underrated). My control finisher of choice. Havengul Lich - Not in the combo sense either. He is just good to use in a deck that is grindy, with a lot of removal, a lot of clones, and snapcaster, so you reuse everything. Decks like this have 90% GY efficiency. Karn Liberated - No one likes to see him hit the board. 7 mana isn't a ton for control or ramp. I am thinking I am going to build a green ramp that focuses on Rancor, Dungrove, Karn, Garruk and Batterskull for the last 3 months of standard. Dismember - This lost a lot of light once Tragic Slip came around, but it can kill an Inkmoth, Restoration Angel, flipped Delver, flipped and equipped Delver, weaken a Prime Time for an easy block kill, and all for 1 mana and 4 life. Love this card. Essence of the Wild - This is just a cute card to me. I love it with Batterskull and Garruk, Primal Hunter. A ton of fatties with those 2 out. However, it does not work so well against Sever the Bloodline
Most people tend to forget that Havengul Lich doesn't have to reanimate from your own graveyard too, plenty of times I have stolen my opponents Snapcaster to flashback my own stuff.
I usually win games when some uses this on my Strangleroot Geists, Huntmasters, etc... I just don't see the value unless you are targeting a control deck with limited threats
Over-rated: Delver of Secrets
Yes, it's good, but it's not ban worthy, and even in a deck that's 25 instants/sorceries, it still has less than a 50% chance of swinging for 3 on turn 2. Compare to Steppe Lynx which could hit for 5 turn 2 in Zendikar, and it shows that while good, Delver isn't that amazing.
Under-rated. Venser, the Sojourner.
Unblockable Geist of Saint Trafts, flickering Stonehorn Dignitaries, and a killer ultimate. It seems really good. If it were 1 mana less, it'd be crazy good and everyone would be playing him, but I still think there's enough support for him to be able to wreck face.
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"Join the totally non-existent House Dimir, which neither now or ever was actually a thing that exists."
- adrius15, on DeviantArt
Overrated:
Strangleroot Geist
turns your opponent's Phantasmal Image into straight value town.
Underrated:
Ponder
it smoothes out draws so well, and is one of the main reasons for Delver's success since it's the deck that utilizes ponder the best. Also happy to see that most control lists run it as a 2 or 3 of now.
Overrated:
Strangleroot Geist
turns your opponent's Phantasmal Image into straight value town.
Underrated:
Ponder
it smoothes out draws so well, and is one of the main reasons for Delver's success since it's the deck that utilizes ponder the best. Also happy to see that most control lists run it as a 2 or 3 of now.
I really don't think ponder is underrated. People are finally starting to realize that it's one of the best cards in standard. Also I really hope anyone who says snapcaster mage is overrated is trolling....
Intangible virtue is very underrated however, such an insane card with lingering souls or any token produceing card for that matter.
Creature wise.
I love Grand architect and glissa, the traitor but they are build around me cards and they don't quite have the support they need.
I am surprised at just how dissapointed I am that Chandra's pheonix isn't in M13 even though it was barely used (because red is barely used) it just felt like something red really needed.
I guess she has the same problem of not having the deck to support her.
Overrated
many of the ultility lands moorland haunt and kessig are good the rest are not that great.... that includes cavern of souls.
I really don't think ponder is underrated. People are finally starting to realize that it's one of the best cards in standard. Also I really hope anyone who says snapcaster mage is overrated is trolling....
Intangible virtue is very underrated however, such an insane card with lingering souls or any token produceing card for that matter.
This is the truth. as an avid delver player, i hate seeing virtue on my opponent's side of the field.
Overrated: Dismember. It's splashable removal and kills anything sub-titan, yea. But how often do you see it run these days? Black has better removal in Doom Blade/GftT now that indestructible creatures aren't seeing play, and nobody feels good about having to pay a card and 4 life for conditional creature removal in a world of undying, titans, and hexproof.
Underrated: Torpor Orb. Why this isn't found in more sideboards is beyond my comprehension. It hates efficiently upon so many relevant cards, including Snapcaster Mage, the Titans, the Splicers, Solemn Simulacrum, anything worth playing in Pod, Geralf's Messenger, Huntmaster of the Fells, Dungeon Geists, anything with Soulbond, Stonehorn Dignitary, Deciever Exarch... ETB effects define the current standard. Conversely, it makes cards like Demonlord of Ashmouth reasonable, a strategy that not enough people have experimented with.
Overrated: Dismember. It's splashable removal and kills anything sub-titan, yea. But how often do you see it run these days? Black has better removal in Doom Blade/GftT now that indestructible creatures aren't seeing play, and nobody feels good about having to pay a card and 4 life for conditional creature removal in a world of undying, titans, and hexproof.
Underrated: Torpor Orb. Why this isn't found in more sideboards is beyond my comprehension. It hates efficiently upon so many relevant cards, including Snapcaster Mage, the Titans, the Splicers, Solemn Simulacrum, anything worth playing in Pod, Geralf's Messenger, Huntmaster of the Fells, Dungeon Geists, anything with Soulbond, Stonehorn Dignitary, Deciever Exarch... ETB effects define the current standard. Conversely, it makes cards like Demonlord of Ashmouth reasonable, a strategy that not enough people have experimented with.
Aren't many of the creatures you claim torpor orb is good against weak to dismember?
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Quote from Jon Finkel »
Occasional Player? Hold on, because we're sending a Level 3 judge over to your house to kick you in the balls right now! -With Love, WOTC
Aren't many of the creatures you claim torpor orb is good against weak to dismember?
Dismember is a pretty horrific answer to the majority of those creatures in my opinion. Snapcaster gets its spell, splicers leave a golem, solemn draws you a card, geralf's undies and hits you for more, huntmaster leaves a token, Dungeon Geists at least gets a tap for that turn, Dignitary still prevents a combat phase, and exarch gets its effect too. If you happen to get some damage in with these creatures good job, but their main purpose is not to be beaters themselves. Dismember helps to stop shenanigans from flicker effects, but overall does not take back the advantage these creatures are designed to offer.
Dismember makes its hay by cost efficiently eliminating beater creatures ie Delver of Secrets, Champion of the Parish, Hero of Bladehold, Stormblood Berserker, etc as well as taking out utility creatures that gain value by staying on the field ie Blood Artist. The current meta seems to be shifting towards a more extensive use of ETB triggers limiting the effectiveness of cheap 1 for 1 removal that can't hit titans.
If cards like Sublime Archangel, Jace's Phantasm, Talrand Sky Summoner, Vampire Nighthawk, and Teva, Nature's Herald start to push the meta or aggressive weenie decks collect steam (especially with Rancor offering early 2 for 1s) then Dismember will start to see its value go back up. But against ETB creatures, discard/counter is the best way to go or sweepers to collect them all up at once to at least get some value back.
Anyone in this thread want to explain to me how Huntmaster is overrated right now?
I don't see how you could ever think this card is bad in the current metagame. Couldn't imagine playing fewer than 3 in any deck that can support it.
He does nothing against Restoration Angel. In fact, less than nothing because you can't even attack into 4 open mana unless you have a Dismember ready. He's not that good now.
Fetch any creature I like and put in my hand for no mana? Okay then!
Except Craw Wurm doesn't reanimate Phantasmal Images, leaving you with a total of 3 or more Craw Wurms + a planeswalker on the battlefield for the price of one.
Except Craw Wurm doesn't reanimate Phantasmal Images, leaving you with a total of 3 or more Craw Wurms on the battlefield for the price of one.
And Garruk doesn't fetch any creature for 0 mana. First he has to resolve. Then he has to kill something. Then he has to survive. Then he has to sacrifice something, possibly killing himself. The number of times I've searched for a creature with Garruk is only slightly more often than I've Overrun with him. Don't get me wrong. I love having the option, but that's not why you play Garruk.
AKA: Lots of people in this thread are bad at judging cards. Additionally, it's fairly nonsensical. Who defines the correct rating of a card. If I rate Geist of Saint Traft an 8, but you rate it a 5 and it is actually a 7, then is it overrated or underrated? Who is the governing body for ratings? Can I send my Geist in to BSA and get an official rating back? Will it ever change?
I love having the option, but that's not why you play Garruk.
..and that for me is why he's underrated, because people forget the ability exists. Most people think he's only there for the overrun, which to me is ridiculous.
As to hitting people with 3 craw wurms instead of one. Sure that's nice, and sure I'd like the option, but you probably win with the Craw Wurm quite often anyway (if it were white) with all the backup available.
I guess it all comes down to....
Additionally, it's fairly nonsensical
. If your local meta hasn't got many players who won't trade Sun Titan at any price because it's so awesome, you're going to think people rate it lower than at my meta. Likewise if your locale has people who can actually play Garruk, then you'll think they rate him highly.
Edit:
AKA: Lots of people in this thread are bad at judging cards.
The thread isn't about that though is it, the thread is about judging how other people judge cards.
Edit 2:
First he has to resolve. Then he has to kill something. Then he has to survive. Then he has to sacrifice something, possibly killing himself.
Sadly as Garruk was in both my block deck pre DKA and my standard deck (well my FNM one, which is admittedly more casual), I could rant about his versatility all day.
In BV his non wolf making abilities were awesome and yet rarely used against me. Saccing a Snappy to fetch another Snappy was always fun, and then overrunning a wolf or two and a Snappy for victory with multiple counter backup was also fun after boarding out the BVs in some matchups.
In "Zombie Friends", fetching Messenger with a Messenger sac was equally strong.
In both cases Garruk was being used as a removal card in a reasonably controlling deck - which meant if the plan of churning out wolves to win wasn't available, he had uses after removing something (if he was alive, which was mostly in both of those formats)
Being splashable with so many differing abilities is superb.
I agree with this. I tried to stay away from Mental Misstep in the Delver mirror for 2 FNMs. I got wrecked by it and now have 3 in my SB.
A guy that rode with me to the TCG Player S.D. brought Naya. In the 1st round, he ran into a guy who mainboarded Torpor Orb. That card kinda beats Naya.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
Yes we know that swords are good, they have been since they have been released...however it bothers me that deck builders constantly jam them in any deck and think it makes it competitve. It has been my experience that people will put multiple swords in any mono colored or splash colored deck.
most underrated card: Mimic Vat
There are so many good creatures in standard that if your opponent doesn't have an answer to your vat, they are probably going to lose to it. Its a mana sink sure, but a beneficial one mid to late game that can turn a losing position into a winning one.
Underrated: I can think of plenty here.
Drogskol Reaver - This card is stupid dirty. Handles WRR well, gains life, draws cards, works well with Pristine Talisman (also underrated). My control finisher of choice.
Havengul Lich - Not in the combo sense either. He is just good to use in a deck that is grindy, with a lot of removal, a lot of clones, and snapcaster, so you reuse everything. Decks like this have 90% GY efficiency.
Karn Liberated - No one likes to see him hit the board. 7 mana isn't a ton for control or ramp. I am thinking I am going to build a green ramp that focuses on Rancor, Dungrove, Karn, Garruk and Batterskull for the last 3 months of standard.
Dismember - This lost a lot of light once Tragic Slip came around, but it can kill an Inkmoth, Restoration Angel, flipped Delver, flipped and equipped Delver, weaken a Prime Time for an easy block kill, and all for 1 mana and 4 life. Love this card.
Essence of the Wild - This is just a cute card to me. I love it with Batterskull and Garruk, Primal Hunter. A ton of fatties with those 2 out. However, it does not work so well against Sever the Bloodline
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Most underatted card is probably sun titan and I'm tempted to say phantasmal image since I think it's a lot better then people give it credit for.
Most people tend to forget that Havengul Lich doesn't have to reanimate from your own graveyard too, plenty of times I have stolen my opponents Snapcaster to flashback my own stuff.
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
Might sound blasphemous because she's established as awesome, but I think it's the best creature in the STD game right now
Intangible Virtue
A nightmare if your deck has no answers, makes me pray for top deck Bonfires
Torpor Orb
It can hose all of the top decks in STD, so it should see more play
Zealous Conscripts
Just wins games of Magic, the end
Overrated:
Strangleroot Geist
Too many first-striking golems hanging around, not great unless you cast on T2
Sword of Feast and Famine
I don't think it's very good right now... too much good stuff to discard... I guess it's cool if you have Resty in your grip, but other wise, meh
Surgical Extraction
I usually win games when some uses this on my Strangleroot Geists, Huntmasters, etc... I just don't see the value unless you are targeting a control deck with limited threats
Yes, it's good, but it's not ban worthy, and even in a deck that's 25 instants/sorceries, it still has less than a 50% chance of swinging for 3 on turn 2. Compare to Steppe Lynx which could hit for 5 turn 2 in Zendikar, and it shows that while good, Delver isn't that amazing.
Under-rated. Venser, the Sojourner.
Unblockable Geist of Saint Trafts, flickering Stonehorn Dignitaries, and a killer ultimate. It seems really good. If it were 1 mana less, it'd be crazy good and everyone would be playing him, but I still think there's enough support for him to be able to wreck face.
- adrius15, on DeviantArt
I made my own banner
Underrated: Urabrask. No one plays this guy anymore but I feel like he could be so good... This + Inferno Titan is 20 damage in two turns.
How I know you don't have a clue on how to evaluate cards:
1. Anecdotal evidence
2. Anecdotal evidence of POOR PLAY
Snapcaster is bad because once my friend played it when I had curse of death's hold and his gy was empty. Snapcaster is awful.
Strangleroot Geist
turns your opponent's Phantasmal Image into straight value town.
Underrated:
Ponder
it smoothes out draws so well, and is one of the main reasons for Delver's success since it's the deck that utilizes ponder the best. Also happy to see that most control lists run it as a 2 or 3 of now.
UW
I really don't think ponder is underrated. People are finally starting to realize that it's one of the best cards in standard. Also I really hope anyone who says snapcaster mage is overrated is trolling....
Intangible virtue is very underrated however, such an insane card with lingering souls or any token produceing card for that matter.
Faithless looting feels almost as good as ponder in a colour with no library manipulation.
I am finding server the bloodline way better than I expected.
Creature wise.
I love Grand architect and glissa, the traitor but they are build around me cards and they don't quite have the support they need.
I am surprised at just how dissapointed I am that Chandra's pheonix isn't in M13 even though it was barely used (because red is barely used) it just felt like something red really needed.
I guess she has the same problem of not having the deck to support her.
Overrated
many of the ultility lands moorland haunt and kessig are good the rest are not that great.... that includes cavern of souls.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I don't see how you could ever think this card is bad in the current metagame. Couldn't imagine playing fewer than 3 in any deck that can support it.
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
This is the truth. as an avid delver player, i hate seeing virtue on my opponent's side of the field.
UW
Underrated: Torpor Orb. Why this isn't found in more sideboards is beyond my comprehension. It hates efficiently upon so many relevant cards, including Snapcaster Mage, the Titans, the Splicers, Solemn Simulacrum, anything worth playing in Pod, Geralf's Messenger, Huntmaster of the Fells, Dungeon Geists, anything with Soulbond, Stonehorn Dignitary, Deciever Exarch... ETB effects define the current standard. Conversely, it makes cards like Demonlord of Ashmouth reasonable, a strategy that not enough people have experimented with.
Cubetutor Link
Aren't many of the creatures you claim torpor orb is good against weak to dismember?
Currently playing:
M13 Draft
GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Dismember is a pretty horrific answer to the majority of those creatures in my opinion. Snapcaster gets its spell, splicers leave a golem, solemn draws you a card, geralf's undies and hits you for more, huntmaster leaves a token, Dungeon Geists at least gets a tap for that turn, Dignitary still prevents a combat phase, and exarch gets its effect too. If you happen to get some damage in with these creatures good job, but their main purpose is not to be beaters themselves. Dismember helps to stop shenanigans from flicker effects, but overall does not take back the advantage these creatures are designed to offer.
Dismember makes its hay by cost efficiently eliminating beater creatures ie Delver of Secrets, Champion of the Parish, Hero of Bladehold, Stormblood Berserker, etc as well as taking out utility creatures that gain value by staying on the field ie Blood Artist. The current meta seems to be shifting towards a more extensive use of ETB triggers limiting the effectiveness of cheap 1 for 1 removal that can't hit titans.
If cards like Sublime Archangel, Jace's Phantasm, Talrand Sky Summoner, Vampire Nighthawk, and Teva, Nature's Herald start to push the meta or aggressive weenie decks collect steam (especially with Rancor offering early 2 for 1s) then Dismember will start to see its value go back up. But against ETB creatures, discard/counter is the best way to go or sweepers to collect them all up at once to at least get some value back.
He does nothing against Restoration Angel. In fact, less than nothing because you can't even attack into 4 open mana unless you have a Dismember ready. He's not that good now.
Amazing card, but it's in a slot where a lot of the time you'd win by dropping a Craw Wurm.
Underrated = Garruk Relentless
Fetch any creature I like and put in my hand for no mana? Okay then!
Except Craw Wurm doesn't reanimate Phantasmal Images, leaving you with a total of 3 or more Craw Wurms + a planeswalker on the battlefield for the price of one.
And Garruk doesn't fetch any creature for 0 mana. First he has to resolve. Then he has to kill something. Then he has to survive. Then he has to sacrifice something, possibly killing himself. The number of times I've searched for a creature with Garruk is only slightly more often than I've Overrun with him. Don't get me wrong. I love having the option, but that's not why you play Garruk.
AKA: Lots of people in this thread are bad at judging cards. Additionally, it's fairly nonsensical. Who defines the correct rating of a card. If I rate Geist of Saint Traft an 8, but you rate it a 5 and it is actually a 7, then is it overrated or underrated? Who is the governing body for ratings? Can I send my Geist in to BSA and get an official rating back? Will it ever change?
..and that for me is why he's underrated, because people forget the ability exists. Most people think he's only there for the overrun, which to me is ridiculous.
As to hitting people with 3 craw wurms instead of one. Sure that's nice, and sure I'd like the option, but you probably win with the Craw Wurm quite often anyway (if it were white) with all the backup available.
I guess it all comes down to.... . If your local meta hasn't got many players who won't trade Sun Titan at any price because it's so awesome, you're going to think people rate it lower than at my meta. Likewise if your locale has people who can actually play Garruk, then you'll think they rate him highly.
Edit:
The thread isn't about that though is it, the thread is about judging how other people judge cards.
Edit 2:
Sadly as Garruk was in both my block deck pre DKA and my standard deck (well my FNM one, which is admittedly more casual), I could rant about his versatility all day.
In BV his non wolf making abilities were awesome and yet rarely used against me. Saccing a Snappy to fetch another Snappy was always fun, and then overrunning a wolf or two and a Snappy for victory with multiple counter backup was also fun after boarding out the BVs in some matchups.
In "Zombie Friends", fetching Messenger with a Messenger sac was equally strong.
In both cases Garruk was being used as a removal card in a reasonably controlling deck - which meant if the plan of churning out wolves to win wasn't available, he had uses after removing something (if he was alive, which was mostly in both of those formats)
Being splashable with so many differing abilities is superb.
I don't think ponder has ever been underrated. It's like basic land, people add it to their deck when it's necessarily.
Tribal: Zombies.
Five color staircase is in development.