Testing has shown that a MIDRANGE aggro has been our most successful method. We still manage to outrace the fastest aggro decks and keep up with the more recent tempo strategies. We are not white weenie. We are not humans tribal. I like to describe this deck as a W/B MIDRANGE TOKEN RECURSION SWARM AGGRO CONTROL AWESOME. That's my take on it.
This is what I believe to be our most optimal VANILLA deck list for competitive play. Small tweaks can be made to accommodate your meta, but this is our basic core.
Here is a sample list for a more control based variant:
This variant is more focused on applying moderate pressure mid game while controlling your opponents hand and field completely until the majority of their resources are exhausted, at which point you pop a Shrine, FB a lingering, or spawn tokens from one of our other permanents to blow through for the win.
Here's an aggro heavy variant for those that may be interested.
This variant is focused on simply overwhelming your opponent. Spawning tokens almost constantly after T3 and just using sheer numbers and power to overrun any opposition.
And here is the list I am currently running personally. Changes often.
This list is a personal brew, featuring control heavy early game and mid-late game aggro. When I am piloting it I imagine myself slowly pressing down on a gas pedal, never over committing, just steadily accelerating. I help my opponents burn all of their early game resources and then gradually ease into an overwhelming board presence for the win. This deck has tested positively against EVERY tier 1 deck currently in the meta, and I believe it is almost at the point of perfection(for me and my playstyle anyways).
Card costs-
White mana- 30 Symbols, 65%
Black mana- 16 symbols (including FB), 35%
Mana Produced-
14 white mana sources (58.3%)
11 black mana sources (45.8%)
3 colorless sources (12%)
CMC Curve
1 cmc- 8 total, 22.2% 2 cmc- 12 total, 33.3% 3 cmc- 10 total, 27.7% 4 cmc- 6 total, 16.6%
^ I LOVE this mana curve. Plays out very nicely, and has been very versatile and flexible.
What cards are currently available to us to fill these deck slots?
1 drops
Despise- Debatable card. Here is a list of all the valid primary targets it has in our match-ups:
UW Humans- Geist of Saint Traft, Mirran Crusader, Hero of Bladehold, Fiend Hunter. Warns us of Day of Judgment. Needless to say, crusader and geist break our balls. Hunter is really annoying because it always hits our hero's. Despise has made this matchup for me a lot easier in round 1, and once I can SB I feel I have the advantage from there out.
RDW: Stormblood Berserker, Koth of the Hammer, Hero of Oxid Ridge. Warns us of slagstorm/ancient grudge. Stopping the T2 stormblood makes a HUGE difference. The only time I ever lose to RDW is if I fail to get a single Intangible Virtue off and they drop a Hero of Oxid Ridge. Despise makes it almost impossible for them to beat us.
UW tempo/Delver/Illusions: Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets, Lord of the Unreal. Hitting their snapcasters really pisses them off, and picking out their lords hurts their wincon a lot. Worst case scenario they waste a mana leak to protect themselves, still a win for us.
Spot Removal- I recommend starting out with five slots for our various selections of spot removal. Choices will differ depending on each individual's meta, but Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, and Victim of Night are the most popular. Choose as you see fit.
Intangible Virtue- One of the undisputed 4-ofs in this deck. Must have.
Gather the Townsfolk- Another choice selection for us, and can become amazing during late gameplay, making it a worthy topdeck at any time.
Shrine of Loyal Legions- Another solid candidate to fit in our 2cmc slots. Most of our spells will be white, and this can turn out to be a game ender similar to Shrine of Burning Rage if you drop a Sorin and generate an emblem or Intangible Virtue.
Skirsdag High Priest- Kill something and tap three to spawn a 5/5. He is only listed so that I can tell you how horrible he is for us. This is a card you build decks around, and does not belong here.
Suture Priest- One of the previously overlooked cards, this can become a valuable resource in our deck, especially against any aggro decks.
Grand Abolisher- Some are deciding to run it as a two-of in MB, with one or two more copies in SB. Can be undeniably powerful, but as usual the meta will need to stabilize before we can accurately judge where this card belongs. Will see play from us either way.
3 drops
Dismember- Another removal option. Will always be ran in various numbers in many decks, especially if they run Black.
Midnight Haunting- A great card for us, recommend running as a 3 or 4 of. Do not fail to note that it is an INSTANT, meaning that if we decide to leave a few mana open on opponents turn while holding some spot removal and they decide to not cast anything, there is nothing better than taking advantage of their caution and dropping this. Allows us a bit more flexibility when playing conservatively.
Blade Splicer- 3/3 first strike token for the deck with a little 1/1 blocker attached is how we see this. This card has been generally outclassed by our several other 3cmc options, but still not bad.
Thraben Doomsayer- Another possible option for us. Unfortunately it doesnt generate tokens when cast as our other 3cmc spells do, but can eventually outshine it's opposing contenders if left unchecked for a few turns. Another meta-based decision.
Oblivion Ring- Always has been, and always will be amazing for anyone running white. The question for us is how many, and again we must wait before we can know for sure.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad- The crown that tops our deck. He adds so much power to our deck that he IS a must have. 3 copies minimum.
Hero of Bladehold- A game ender for us. Probably our primary game winner, highly recommended.
Bloodline Keeper- If we obtain additional methods of spawning vampire tokens then this card will be a game finishing must-have. Unfortunately, it is terrible right now. It never flips, and is far too slow.
Day of Judgment- Some people like to run at least one at all times just in case, others say it helps opponents more than ourselves in almost every scenario. Old card, we all know how it works. Recommended for more control heavy variants.
5+ CMC
Geist-Honored Monk- Solid selection, somewhat dependable finisher. Most opt for the hero over this though.
Grave Titan- Our other finishing creature choice. He is more powerful, and guarantees a win in our deck unless dealt with immediately, but at the cost of two more mana than the hero. If you play in a control heavy meta then I suggest running them, because its more common for games to last long enough to get this powerhouse out.
Elspeth Tirel- Old card, interacts well with our token based deck, but has proven to be too slow in the more aggro variants. Holds good synergy with our control variants, but still debatable. Personal choice.
Wurmcoil Engine- Saves us from wrath effects, which will undoubtedly become a weakness for us. Unfortunately, with Ancient Grudge still lurking around and our new land giving all of our creatures lifelink and deathtouch, Wurmcoil has lost a little value.
Lands
Most players agree that we will be running 24-25 lands. Due to the various ways to build this deck, there is no set amount of Plains/Swamps to run, it all depends on your CMC color ratio.
Vault of the Archangel- A must have for us. Run only as a 2 or maybe 3 of, having more than one out at a time is pointless.
Isolated Chapel- The only dual land we have. MUST RUN 4 COPIES.
Evolving Wilds- If you still find yourself wanting for a better way to appropriate your lands then this is the best option after the chapel. It can slow down our tempo a bit, but having access to at least one black mana is VITAL.
Some notes about the deck, before questions are asked:
1. Elspeth Tirel is not as great as you think. We need token generators, not life gain. You either pay for the tokens or pay for the life gain and wait to pop her final, never time to do both. Generally, we opt for the tokens. With our Vault of the Archangel I have yet to find myself in a scenario where I think having an Elspeth would have turned the match in any way, other than her final. Since we opt for tokens on Elspeth, you are paying 5 mana for a copy of Lingering Souls that is subject to removal. She shows a lot more value in our control variants that run Day of Judgment but in aggro variants she is simply win-more.
2. Shrine of Loyal Legions is one of your best cards IF and ONLY if your meta doesnt side much artifact hate. Almost all of our spells are white. It is an insurance policy against wrath effects and Ratchet Bombs. In this deck it can finish a game in a similar fashion of it's counterpart Shrine of Burning Rage. Sadly, most metas have redoubled their arsenal of artifact/enchantment removal.
4. Bloodline Keeper and Skirsdag High Priest are cards that you build decks around, and do not belong in our WB token aggro. Just because something is W or B and spawns tokens does not mean we must make room for it. Tested and proven.
5. Thraben Doomsayer has proven to be suboptimal. Too easily removed, in our tight 3cmc slot, and doesnt spawn tokens when cast. Try it yourself, you will see. In our upcoming aggro meta, he will be a waste of a draw and three mana. Same exact thing goes for Mikaeus the Lunarch.
6. If your personal meta is more control oriented, swap out the Hero of Bladeholds for Grave Titans. They will make you win every game if you can cast it successfully. Bait their counters early, and you win.
Our options for Wrath Effects/Sweepers and Spot Removal
As we have developed it is starting to appear that although we are a creature spawn heavy deck, some board wiping may be needed for us to compete with some of our worst match-ups. Trichronos has been kind enough to create a list of all wrath effects available to us in our colors with a short summary of their individual pros and cons. Typically, Day of Judgment will be our primary go to nuke, but the best thing about this game is that it is always evolving. Schondetta and myself have compiled a list of our most appealing options for spot removal. Enoy =)
Wrath Effects:
White Sweepers Day of Judgment - The standard. Take all creatures and blow them up. 4 mana isn't that hard of an investment to make either.
Verdict: This is the gold standard for mass removal in standard right now.
[CARD]
Divine Reckoning[/CARD] - 4 Mana kills all creatures on the field but one. This may not be the best decision for us as tokens may be the only targets for us. Sure, choosing to save a hero from our own sweep is good but not when our opponent can save their titans or geists. This card does have flashback so you get a little extra value out of it.
Verdict: I wouldn't suggest this one, though.
Phyrexian Rebirth - 6 mana is a heavy investment to make in a sweeper. By the time we need it, it might be too late. However, this is the only card to actually synergies with our own strategy while simultaneously hosing our opponent. Wreck your board? Check. Give myself a big, fat token? Don't mind if I do.
Verdict: A solid sweeper with a slightly prohibitive mana cost. Use at your own risk.
Black Sweepers Black Sun's Zenith - The current standard in black mass removal. This card is versatile. Rather than wrathing, it weakens the board. The best things about this card are that it can be used at 3 mana and that it goes back into the deck for use later. However, where Day of Judgment stops titans at 4 mana, Black Sun's Zenith takes 8. Also, it's double black costed. Then again, it does still take a normal, non-anthemed Geist out at 4 mana.
Verdict: A solid, reusable sweeper overall.
Life's Finale - I think this card has been mostly overlooked. It costs 6 mana to cast, so it is certainly expensive. It also has double black in the mana cost. A similarly restrictive issue. However, it does wrath the board and then allows you a mini Surgical Extraction. It won't nab any cards from the opponents hand but it does knock out any threats still in the deck. It might be nice to wrath a Geist and then knock out other copies from the deck. However, I think once we get to 6 mana, we won't be worried about needing a sweep. We'll either be dead or winning by then.
Verdict: Solid but over-costed.
Colorless Ratchet Bomb - The only colorless sweeper at our disposal. at 2 mana, it can come down early but takes a bit to charge up and might have a little to much precision accuracy. However, this can take out some fairly annoying threats and will leave our tokens unharmed (unless we have to pop it at 0). It's already in most sideboards it seems.
Verdict: Solid, precise and accurate. It certainly has its place.
Planeswalkers Elspeth Tirel's -5 Ability - A planeswalker ability that sweeps the board but leaves our tokens intact. It costs 5 mana, 5 loyalty and, in most cases, a planeswalker. I feel that this ability is a bit overcosted if not played right. This is a bit of a strange ability in some respects and must be used very carefully. If you are not careful, you could end up destroying many things on the board that are a benefit to you such as anthems, O-rings, etc. This doesn't just target creatures so it must be used only in the most dire situations.
Verdict: Powerful but costly and could easily backfire if you aren't paying attention.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's -6 Ability - Another pseudo sweeper we can use. This one will be targeted only at our opponent though. If this does go off successfully, we lose nothing but take a whole lot. With this ability, you will win the game. There is no doubt. It will be over. However, you've got to get Sorin to 6 loyalty. Not really a difficult task seeing as we will have a ton of blockers to protect him. However, I wouldn't strive to use his ability unless you just want to throw a big t-bag to the opponents face. Hmm...so I destroy your best cards and THEN beat you over the head with them? SOLD. I see the theft of planeswalkers by this ability less as us gaining something and more as dragging away our opponents best threats. I mean, really, what are we going to do with a Koth of the Hammer at 3 loyalty?
Verdict: Powerful, game ending ability. Then again, aren't all PW abilities supposed to be like that? We are playing Sorin anyway so feel free to use this ability whenever you'd like.
4 Isolated Chapel
12 Plains
5 Swamp
3 Vault of the Archangel
With this manabase you can expect to see the following:
One black source in our initial hand of seven cards.
At least one white source in our initial hand of seven cards and a second white source by Turn 2.
Four lands in play on turn 4.
We can expect to see a second black source by Turn 7 and a third white source by Turn 5.
I beleive I have done the most mana base testing here, so I can answer everyones questions in regards to evolving wild, more black sources, splashing green, and despise.
Quick note: Ive been running 2 wilds, and they have been fine for me. my mana base is 24 lands:
The deck can reliably work in more black as well, but double black and double white spells become harder. Id suggest this if you are about 50-50 white-black:
Now your asking about a green splash? Sure. its doable. But heres the downside. Double white mana, not really relable til turn 4/5. Double black mana? No way. Double green mana? Eh, your more likely to have 1 green source... But thats most likely not til turn 4/5 also. It works fine for ray of revelation, but dont think you can manage thrun or even township:
You need to learn how to play this deck aggressively with your foot on the pedal and how to also play conservatively, more focused on control and exhausting your opponent. THIS ARTICLE explains the concept of knowing what role to play in your match-ups. KNOW YOUR ROLE.
For those of you who are fans of Flavor and Lore like I am-
The flavor in this deck is amazing. It symbolizes Sorin's return to his home world of Innistrad, and his involvement in the war between humans and monsters and our deck is a perfect example of just that- We have our basic and innocent core of human valor and might, heavily supported by a much darker and evil power. Our deck plays out as a TCG story of Sorin using the dark powers he possesses to strengthen and support the white humans in their time of need and together vanquish the enemy.
Here is the back story of Sorin for those that do not know his lore involving the plane of Innistrad.
Entire mortal lifetimes have flitted by since the last time Sorin Markov returned to the world of his birth. He has spent bemused centuries roaming the Multiverse, stopping by Innistrad only when it suited his whims, his thirst for world-spanning travel enabled by his vampiric longevity.
But now he returns to find his homeworld devouring itself. An angel's disappearance has not only endangered the humans of Innistrad, it has smashed a carefully-constructed balance between humanity and the creatures of the night. Sorin knew never to expect peace and harmony on this shadowed world, but he thought he had arranged a kind of effective equilibrium, a set of safety measures designed to keep one side of the scale from tipping too far.
Art by Michael Komarck
But the prodigal vampire returns to witness his blood-feeding kin killing humans at will, werewolf howlpacks preying on the priests and cathars meant to ward them off, and rotting ghouls mounting a siege on the very walls of Thraben. The balance has been lost. Old memories resurface, and the ancient vampire draws his sword under the light of a grim moon. All this was not meant to be.
Centuries ago, Innistrad faced a similar crisis. With a single act of magic, Sorin created a safeguard, a rallying symbol that would struggle to govern the balance between Innistrad's monstrous forces and its humans. He made sure that most humans would have a weapon against the werewolf's curse and wards against the hauntings of geists. His safeguard would ensure the undead ghouls and skaabs would not overwhelm the world. He even betrayed his own vampire brethren to make sure the blood-feeders would never hunt humans to extinction and the demon lords would never triumph over the plane.
This paragon of protection would be Sorin's weapon against an undying darkness, an eternal judge who would fight for the meek and work to sustain life on Innistrad. Click to reveal.
She would be called Avacyn.
Avacyn was Sorin's compromise. She was the legacy he created and left behind as he roamed the Blind Eternities. And she was his betrayal.
Sorin's Origins
The vampire Sorin Markov, the self-serving aristocrat who was once drenched in privilege in his role as the favored lord of Markov Manor, created Avacyn, the angelic champion of the meek and divine source of the protective power on Innistrad.
How did this come to be?
To understand that, we have to learn about another member of the Markov family—Edgar Markov, Sorin's grandfather.
Thousands of years ago, before there were vampires on Innistrad, Edgar Markov was an alchemist in the land that would become Stensia. Famine was sweeping the land, and the old alchemist Edgar searched for a solution that could help the starving families feed themselves. The answer was a brutal one: to undergo a blood ritual that would cause some of the people to feed on blood. It would provide sustenance to those few, reducing demand for the failing crops, but it would also cull the overall population, reducing the number of hungry mouths to feed.
Thus were vampires born on Innistrad.
Vampiric Fury | Art by Matt Stewart
But Edgar Markov's chilling tale has an even darker truth behind it. The famine was an expedient excuse for Edgar's blood magic, but in truth the aging alchemist was experimenting with ways to achieve agelessness for himself and his only grandson, Sorin. A demon called Shilgengar preyed on Edgar's ambition and whispered secrets that would point the way toward Edgar's blood-feeding experiment. Shilgengar also helped the old man overcome his squeamishness at what must be done. Still, Edgar needed prodding for him to go through with the ritual to create the blood-feeders.
And that's when the famine put him over the edge.
The famine might or might not have been Shilgengar's doing.
Either way, it was the genesis of this world's vampires. With his blood magic experiment, Edgar succeeded at finding a way to extend his own life. He anointed Sorin with the same vampiric state—and shockingly, his grandson disappeared.
The trauma of the transformation had caused Sorin's planeswalker spark to ignite.
Sorin's Creation
Sorin was a planeswalker now, but he was also the grandson of the honored progenitor of the entire vampiric race back on his home plane. As the Markov bloodline spawned other bloodlines, Edgar remained the prestigious forefather of all vampires, and Sorin's "life" became like that of a royal.
Over the centuries, as vampires spread further into human lands, Sorin spent more and more time away from his homeworld, sometimes disappearing for years at a time. Vampires became disdainful of the race from which they had spawned, hunting mortal humans more and more boldly, and Sorin became distant from his own vampire-kind.
But Sorin always kept watch on Innistrad. From his world-hopping perspective, he could see the changes on the world of his birth. He saw that as vampires gained in power, the human villages were dwindling. Although he was no longer human himself, he saw the curse his grandfather had brought to the humanity of their world, and he saw that in time, they would be wiped out by the blood-feeders.
Sorin borrowed from long-held beliefs about the moon and the afterlife, forging a warrior who could hold back vampires and other monstrous forces that would extinguish life on Innistrad. He created an angel he named Avacyn and tasked her with protecting the plane. Through her, the magic of faith would create true power to fend off the darkness. The Church of Avacyn grew up around the power Sorin invested in her.
Some of the vampires understood Sorin's act, but most reviled him as a traitor. Edgar still lives in Markov Manor to this day, and to this day Sorin is not welcome there. Avacyn was Sorin's gift to his home, but she was also his betrayal of his own people.
But now Avacyn has disappeared from Innistrad. How could this have happened? Sorin has always had a dark edge to him, and he has never hesitated to destroy anyone who got in the way of his ambitions. But at the same time, he never meant these shadows to rise over the world of his birth. Sorin might be his grandfather's creation, but Sorin's own creation was meant to preserve a way for humans to survive Edgar's crime.
And now, after Sorin's long absence, it is the disappearance of that creation that has called him home again.
Something to look forward to
The lore of this block alone lets us know that our archetype has more to come in the final set. The war will be resolving, and each new card symbolizing that is a possible candidate to strengthen our list. Perhaps Avacyn will become the new staple, or more of Sorin's power will be released and we can incorporate that. Either way, we already stand as a tier1 contender, and the prospects of becoming stronger are strong.
That's the summary of what Ive learned about our archetype thus far, if you have any questions feel free to ask.
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way stating that if you do not run this list or follow these suggestions then you are wrong. This is simply the product of MUCH playtesting, discussing, theorycrafting, and debate. I have been working on constructing this archetype since sorin was spoiled, and have evaluated almost every card beneficial to our theme. Take it or leave it, this is me trying to help everyone. Some of you are going in really odd directions with this.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
How do you deal with ratchet bomb. Potentially Conley's BG ramp list with a few more ratchet bombs and an extra glissa or 2 and GSZ.
As much as I want to play B/W tokens I dont think it can be a dominate force by any means until ratchet bomb rotates.
Is the game plan to play around it as best as possible? Wait until everyone trying BW tokens moves to what actually ends up being the best deck, and then get the wins in while its off the radar some?
I dont know I would love to be convinced otherwise so I could play B/W tokens but it doesnt seem doable.... I mean whats the plan?
How do you deal with ratchet bomb. Potentially Conley's BG ramp list with a few more ratchet bombs and an extra glissa or 2 and GSZ.
As much as I want to play B/W tokens I dont think it can be a dominate force by any means until ratchet bomb rotates.
Is the game plan to play around it as best as possible? Wait until everyone trying BW tokens moves to what actually ends up being the best deck, and then get the wins in while its off the radar some?
I dont know I would love to be convinced otherwise so I could play B/W tokens but it doesnt seem doable.... I mean whats the plan?
People are under the impression that Ratchet Bomb is an immediate game ender for this deck. It doesnt kill any of our permanent token generators, and there's FB on Lingering Souls. Dont over commit in game 2 unless its for the win. I stopped worrying about them, theyre fairly easy to play around. Worst case scenario we can run Divine Offering in the SB.
Just dont play like Tempered Steel and try to dump your entire hand by turn 4.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
People are under the impression that Ratchet Bomb is an immediate game ender for this deck. It doesnt kill any of our permanent token generators, and there's FB on Lingering Souls. Dont over commit in game 2 unless its for the win. I stopped worrying about them, theyre fairly easy to play around. Worst case scenario we can run Divine Offering in the SB.
That does make sense especially with hero and FB to quickly rebuild board position. That being said im going to wait until you and others post some results with it before I pick up the new cards I would probably need as its hard not to be skeptical but heres hoping.... I just dont think its possible to beat out ratchet bomb and removal with a mid range token strat
I believe there is a large SCG open event the day after DKA is t2 legal and with a relatively refined list it would probably be a great time to see if it can shake it up
That does make sense especially with hero and FB to quickly rebuild board position. That being said im going to wait until you and others post some results with it before I pick up the new cards I would probably need as its hard not to be skeptical but heres hoping....
I believe there is a large SCG open event the day after DKA is t2 legal and with a relatively refined list it would probably be a great time to see if it can shake it up
We have some stats posted in the previous thread in the Standard New Card Discussion forum. =)
WRR, RDW, and TS are all very easy matchups for this list.
Delver can be challenging, but win percentages still favor us (65/35ish)
UW Humans is our toughest match up at the moment. It's always a 50/50, and I am currently testing out 4 Despise and an O-Ring in the SB which will swap out the Doom Blades/GFTT to pick out Mirran Crusader and Geist of Saint Traft, which are the things that makes them a touch match up.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
Best way to deal with bomb would be to remove Glissa. Single bomb isn't much scarier than any other sweeper.
Although if they pack 4x Glissa, 4x bomb, 4x green zenith you're probably screwed.
So 4x mirran crusader and 4x hero somewhere in 75 against Glissa decks, they can't really have answers for those and all the tokens simultaneously.
Also nevermore is legitimate answer to bomb recursion. Although probably not worth it since you won't sb it against any other deck whereas crusader can be good against other WRR builds.
Best way to deal with bomb would be to remove Glissa. Single bomb isn't much scarier than any other sweeper.
Although if they pack 4x Glissa, 4x bomb, 4x green zenith you're probably screwed.
So 4x mirran crusader and 4x hero somewhere in 75 against Glissa decks, they can't really have answers for those and all the tokens simultaneously.
I really dont see the BG antimeta becoming a common archetype, I took it as more of a one time sneak shot kind of thing.
We have plenty of responses to any BG artifact deck if it ever becomes a serious threat.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
They could. After printing of lingering souls and Sorin and so much hexproof in the meta, people will probably play a lot of sweepers.
I expect to see 4-of bomb in a lot of 75's. Be it recursion with that land that returns artifacts, Glissa or just as a 2-mana wrath against tokens.
Stony silence probably is a better call than crusader. It stops equipment also and can be used in UW matchup, without equipment their creatures straight lose to tokens' numbers.
They could. After printing of lingering souls and Sorin and so much hexproof in the meta, people will probably play a lot of sweepers.
I expect to see 4-of bomb in a lot of 75's. Be it recursion with that land that returns artifacts, Glissa or just as a 2-mana wrath against tokens.
Stony silence probably is a better call than crusader. It stops equipment also and can be used in UW matchup, without equipment their creatures straight lose to tokens' numbers.
UW primarily relies on Honor of the Pure for their boosts from my experiences.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
-i carried this over from the other thread because nothing has changed since the new cards were spoiled and i thought it would still be useful. oh yeah and i didnt want all my typing to go in vein
like i said earlier in the thread i would be play testing this archetype all day and night with some friends.im not an English professor but i will do my best in this write up
a few notes about the card choices
4x Sorin is the best way to go. there as never been a time were i didnt need more. -2ing and leaving him at one is almost always a death sentence for him especially against aggro. and you have one to f/u with. i recommend 4.its just never a dead card in your hand.against control i can see cutting 1 for the SB.
I felt i needed more than 4 anthems (aside from sorin) as i was never drawing them in a timley manner. i tried 5 and wasnt cutting it. 6 seems like a sweet spot. that feeling you get when you have a board full of 1/1's and your opponent is relaxing because he is in no immediate danger than you drop 2-3 anthems on your turn and your like problem bro. yeah great feeling.i just think the token deck needed more cards to give each creature more value. especially in this 01/22/12 meta. amplified by the fact that there is currently minimal enchant hate
The 2 cmc kill card slot is highly subjective. i felt that non black killed a lot more than non artifact. in my testing it proved so. i can see going to 4 in the MB but 3 felt comfortable. the Oblivion Ring was there to clean up the rest. (shrines, pw's, swords, ratchet bomb, bears o my)
The land base i choose happens to be the one that was discussed a couple pages back about being the right number. you might want to adjust your swamp/plains ratio depending on your specific build. i dont know why everyone is getting so crazy on the land base. its not like were going to be casting Obliterators . i had ZERO problems with the lands other than the occasional land screw witch is present in all decks. the Vault is absolutely ridiculous. i felt so ahead with this out . it gives the deck A LOT of late game reach. it says "my creatures are better than yours" against aggro and " come at me bro" to wolf run and Solar flare. putting your opponent in that situation where they have to think about if they should attack into it or block from it is really devastating. the beauty of the vault is it can be used both offensively and defensively.
And now onto the Matchups
- i and 5 other friends got together at our local game store for some brewing and play testing. the decks i went against were, Wolf Run Ramp, Tempered Steel, Mage Blade, and u/w humans.
i had two matches against each opponent the first match against each friend was non SB included to playtest the overall consistency of the deck archetype. the second match was with SB's. use this data however you feel like. im going to post only the second matches with SB option because i found no fault in the game ones with this deck other than the follwoing
game ones where it seemed i was in favor to least favored
1. Wolf run ramp 60/40 - 65/35
2. tempered steel 60/40 - 61/39
3. mage blade 50/50 - 45/55
4. u/w humans 45/55 - 45/55
again these are without sideboard and the % is just an educated guess
Match against Wolf Run Ramp:
GAME 1 - i keep a nice hand.hes playing a pretty generic list with 3 inferno titans and 2 slagstorms. i curve out nicley. by turn 4 i double drop anthem with 4 tokens on the field (at this point all he has done is ramp) and swing in for 12 damage.he drops a inferno titan and shoots one of the flyers (i had two humans and two spirits) . next turn i draw Sorin and anthem them. i swing in. he blocks but is still dead anyways as i have 3 guys to his one blocker and plenty of gas
GAME 2 - (im the worse at sideboarding btw) i take out 3 shrines and put in 3 Stony Silence( as there counter productive) and as i figured he brought in ratchet bombs and 1 more slagstorm.
he mulls to six and drops an early ratchet bomb. i play an early virture and leave mana open for the removal in my hand. i draw a silence and play it on turn 5. i eot play midnight haunting. on my turn 6 i play a Lingering souls and gather the townsfolk, next turn he slagstorms.OUCH! and gets in with poison. i than flashback souls and play hero of blade hold. he drops primetime and does his thing. my turn i play sorin and doom blade his primetime. i plus sorin so he doesnt die to inkmoth and get in with hero. he drops another slagstorm and kils all but the hero. i ended up -2ng with Sorin and with a virtue out he died to a hero attack.
Thoughts - i never felt behind at all in this match. for wolf run all there doing for the first couple turns are ramping while your building your board. even with the slagstorms. you have so much resilience in the form of PW's and lingering souls FB and eot haunting. there titans are a joke when you have kill spells or vault open.the only way i felt he couldve won was constant hate and WW'd inkmoths. they play a lot of card we dont care about (sad robot thrun garruk etc)
Match against Mage blade:
GAME 1 - this matchup was a a little of blur to me. i was really hungry and shaky at the time( i went out after to eat ,dont worry im fine now)
i mull to 6 on the draw. i play a traveler turn 1. he flips a delver and gets in.
somewhere between turn 3-5 im just playing token spells. he counters some and vapors some tokens. while he beats in with the now two delvers. around turn 6~ . his board is all chummed up and i have a few tokens with an HtP out. i drop sorin and + him. he o rings sorin and manages to get there. ( this is the first time playing against counters, i personally just play into them, with lingering souls its almost ok but snapcaster mage makes it more difficult). he wins
GAME 2 - i take out 3 doom blades and put in 2 timley and 1 oblivion ring (for swords and maybe ratchet bomb)in hindsight idk if it was best to bring in bombs against there 0-2 drops against mine. input would be appreciated here
i keep a good hand. drop a traveler.EOT haunting. he taps out and plays a geist after that. i play lingering souls and pass. he holds up leak and gets in with the geist . i play a virture around the leak and get in with tokens. he drops a sword of war and peace on geist and gets in. im at like 6 or something. i play a vault and get in some. i end up winning here because of the vault. he had no answer to it and he had no choice but to block with his guys or he was going to die. i gained a lot of life from this and my guys are all death touch. . i win this game due to this and dropping a late elspeth
GAME 3 - i kept a 2 lander and didnt draw land for a couple turns. he drops an ratchet bomb early and a geist to follow. i squeeze in a timley but hes so far ahead of me due to horrible hand/land screw.i survive for a while due to chump blocking but im getting no where .he gets there and wins.
Thoughts - id say this is 50/50. like i mentioned. mage blade HATES vault. in my non SB match she won me 2 games and they simply cant do anything about it (until the board for it later in the future) mage blade is a tempo deck and tokens is mid range. i feel as if there tempo plan is a bit weaker against us than other decks.this match comes down to who draws the best cards.(find the vault people)
Match against Tempered steel:
GAME 1 - my friend kept a great hand but i was on the play. i drop an early shrine and pretty much play controlish as he drops a turn 3 tempered steel. i chump block with my tokens all the way to turn 5-6 ish. i pop the shrine and hold vault open. he doesnt know what to do lol. if he attacks in he loses all his guys (mine too but i gain a lot of life) if holds back i still gain a lot of life at the cost of tapping out. he chooses to hold back. i drop a virture next turn followed by a sorin and its GG.
GAME 2 - i board out -2 hero and -3 doom blade for +3 timley and +2 Stony silence. i didnt ever find out what he boarded in. he never drew it and i didnt ask afterwards.perhaps shrines. this game was pretty much the same thing. i have more chumpers than he has guys due to the nature of a tokens deck that gets me into the late game. i dropped a silence early with 2 shrines in my hand. at this time i drop an elspeth followed by a sorin and its just gg. i out creatured him and even with his tempered steel. my board was always better
Thoughts - this has to be easily one of our best matchups. the tempo you have over them is ridic. your spells gain you +1 more dude to theres and even though the have a steel out or drop a hero (which you have black for removal)you just get there.even when your trading dudes or double blocking (like i did in the non SB match) they end up with an empty hand and you have souls to FB and token spells and PWs left .once again vault shines here.
Match against U/W Humans:
GAME 1 - he is on the play and curves out nicley. tuen 1 champion into htp into mirran crusader into bladehold.im keep an ok hand. but his Htp makes a huge change in tempo. his creatures are bigger and better han mine and mirran crusader is a little be-otch. he holds up mana leaks as i have a virture and a traveler on the board by like turn 5-6. and he destroys me with beats
GAME 2 - i take out 3 shrines (too slow) and 1 sorin for 3x timely and 1 oblivion ring (for crusader)
i start off good with an early virtue into a midnight haunting . he drops two HtP and days my tokens. he gets a crusader in there but i have no vault or o ring. by time i get guys on the field with vault open im already at like 6~ life and he ratchets away my guys for the win.even with a turn 4 timely
Thoughts - i think this matchup is pretty bad. i mean after 2 matches (1 w/o sb one w/) he still manages to get there. unlike tempered steel. his deck as counters for my late game and has better creatures Plus his own anthem. i think vault is good here also if you manage to get there. but crusader still houses you plus they can easily play Ghost Quarter
well thats the brunt of it.if you have any questions or comments let me know. there is plenty of material i probably missed. i think the deck overall is going to be a contender in the coming season. even at this point where only half of Dark Ascension spoiled. if anything is spoiled that changes in anyway the pace of the deck. we will have to re play test. vault is a good card and like i said gives us a lot of late game reach. the decks weakness is other "weenie" decks with blue. this is only a small sample and not to be taken verbatim for every matchup. i wouldnt change anything in the mainboard as of yet. and i really hate Mirran Crusader. that card is gay and needs to die.
* a note about myself. i have been playing for 2 years with lots of pro exposure i do not consider myself a noob and i dont consider myself a pro.a lot of my friends have been playing for like 600 years and two of them are level 2 judges. i haven't played much standard recently but i have spectated a lot of it on the internet and at my FNM and i consider myself a Legacy guy, an EDH guy and a scholar at card trading (im a buisness man) .im just letting you know this so you can caliber my play experience to your thoughts. *
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
They could. After printing of lingering souls and Sorin and so much hexproof in the meta, people will probably play a lot of sweepers.
I expect to see 4-of bomb in a lot of 75's. Be it recursion with that land that returns artifacts, Glissa or just as a 2-mana wrath against tokens.
Stony silence probably is a better call than crusader. It stops equipment also and can be used in UW matchup, without equipment their creatures straight lose to tokens' numbers.
If U/W humans or anything spirit/geisty starts popping out in the new meta i would definatley bored out cards like Doomed traveler for Despise and day of judgment or get my ratchet bombs to 3 and call it a day
Day of Judgment seems a necessary evil in the SB for decks like UW Humans. People have to remember that we are not the aggro deck all the time. Who's the Beatdown.
In matchups like Mono-Red and UW Humans we will be the control deck. Against Solar Flare and WWR we will be the aggro deck. Against Delver it will all depend on your draw.
Day of Judgment seems a necessary evil in the SB for decks like UW Humans. People have to remember that we are not the aggro deck all the time. Who's the Beatdown.
In matchups like Mono-Red and UW Humans we will be the control deck. Against Solar Flare and WWR we will be the aggro deck. Against Delver it will all depend on your draw.
Thank you for the link. Ive known to play much more conservatively against those fast aggro decks, now I have a better way of explaining the concept to others.
Also, Evolving Wilds has generally been decided as not worth the loss of tempo in this deck. We really only need one black mana source, so most agree that it is unnecessary.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
@ King Shane: Have you put more thought into Faith's Shield at all? I thought about it all last night, trying to come up with as many reasons as I could for running the card, but in the end I just couldn't put it into the deck because I had no idea what to take out. I really want to run the card because I know its applications, but I also feel like every card in the list is too important to take out for such a reactive card. Ugh.
@ King Shane: Have you put more thought into Faith's Shield at all? I thought about it all last night, trying to come up with as many reasons as I could for running the card, but in the end I just couldn't put it into the deck because I had no idea what to take out. I really want to run the card because I know its applications, but I also feel like every card in the list is too important to take out for such a reactive card. Ugh.
Same. Exact. Problem. I spent a good hour staring at a pic of the card and staring at the deck list. Every time I tried to remove something I would undo the change within ten seconds. I gave up, resolving that I want to see what the meta looks like before I try to evaluate a card that can so easily be a hit or miss.
Currently testing out the list I have but -2 GFTT and +2 HotP. Only on my second match, havent even drawn into them yet.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
King, thanks so much for making the primer. I hope you'll continue to fine tune it as time goes on? If you like, I've always liked making primers and wouldnt mind helping.
At the very end is a couple things I'd like you too add (more or less a few things that need testing and options we shouldnt rule out yet)
But I'm really stupid worried about spirits, w/u humans and w/u shananagins in general. My thoughts on it:
Discard
Prevention (nevermore)
Swarm through it
Sword carriers
Sweepers
All of those seem valid.
I've decided on running 3 dojs in the side. necessay evil (Also siteing whos the beat down, great artical BTW, I always refer to that one too) Im thinking about taking out timely all togather... Just dunno when Id use it. I mean, aggro, but priest and DoJ should seal the deal anyways.
To toss my thoughts on Evolving wilds I run 2. Generally its helped just ensure I get black. It hasn't messed with my tempo yet, and helped me once.
Faith's shield. I can tell you right off the bat, its use is either to protect shrine or a walker, it isnt brave the elements, its saves walkers and artifacts. Maybe a hero. Currently I think its a win-more card, because nothing we need to protect is super relivent or linch pin to us.
We have to start testing. once cockatrice has its update, I'll be all over this. So until then I think its important for us to simply gather a large pool of things worth testing, spend some time trying it out, than posting our results.
If you wouldnt mind adding to the primer:
Suturn priest to the 2 cmc slot? She actually does something worth noting, she can hurt aggro really hard and the mirror. Ive got her slotted in for testing.
Hex parasite in the side- He eats planeswalkers. Realivent in vampires, control of all form, mirror, township, ect
swords. We do have evastive dudes, these could mess up games. War and peace fights off w/u body and mind hurts control (Kill them with mill) and gives us a token, Feist and famine untaps our life link land!
nevermore in the side. We can name crusader, ratchet bomb, doj, all spirit people I hate. Maybe?
verious deck lists by users
the pros and cons of green splash
a spoiler box for testing results
placements of the deck (to validate our claims of this being tier 1)
Sweepers. I think we are, at some point, going to have to use them. Luckily for us, we happen to be in the correct colors for all kinds of sweepers. Why don't we take a look at what we have on the table?
White Sweepers
Day of Judgment - The standard. Take all creatures and blow them up. 4 mana isn't that hard of an investment to make either.
Verdict: This is the gold standard for mass removal in standard right now.
Divine Reckoning - 4 Mana kills all creatures on the field but one. This may not be the best decision for us as tokens may be the only targets for us. Sure, choosing to save a hero from our own sweep is good but not when our opponent can save their titans or geists. This card does have flashback so you get a little extra value out of it.
Verdict: I wouldn't suggest this one, though.
Phyrexian Rebirth - 6 mana is a heavy investment to make in a sweeper. By the time we need it, it might be too late. However, this is the only card to actually synergies with our own strategy while simultaneously hosing our opponent. Wreck your board? Check. Give myself a big, fat token? Don't mind if I do.
Verdict: A solid sweeper with a slightly prohibitive mana cost. Use at your own risk.
Black Sweepers
Black Sun's Zenith - The current standard in black mass removal. This card is versatile. Rather than wrathing, it weakens the board. The best things about this card are that it can be used at 3 mana and that it goes back into the deck for use later. However, where Day of Judgment stops titans at 4 mana, Black Sun's Zenith takes 8. Also, it's double black costed. Then again, it does still take a normal, non-anthemed Geist out at 4 mana.
Verdict: A solid, reusable sweeper overall.
Life's Finale - I think this card has been mostly overlooked. It costs 6 mana to cast, so it is certainly expensive. It also has double black in the mana cost. A similarly restrictive issue. However, it does wrath the board and then allows you a mini Surgical Extraction. It won't nab any cards from the opponents hand but it does knock out any threats still in the deck. It might be nice to wrath a Geist and then knock out other copies from the deck. However, I think once we get to 6 mana, we won't be worried about needing a sweep. We'll either be dead or winning by then.
Verdict: Solid but overcosted.
Colorless
Ratchet Bomb - The only colorless sweeper at our disposal. at 2 mana, it can come down early but takes a bit to charge up and might have a little to much precision accuracy. However, this can take out some fairly annoying threats and will leave our tokens unharmed (unless we have to pop it at 0). It's already in most sideboards it seems.
Verdict: Solid, precise and accurate. It certainly has its place.
*Edited to add this section*
Planeswalkers
Elspeth Tirel's -5 Ability - A planeswalker ability that sweeps the board but leaves our tokens intact. It costs 5 mana, 5 loyalty and, in most cases, a planeswalker. I feel that this ability is a bit overcosted if not played right. This is a bit of a strange ability in some respects and must be used very carefully. If you are not careful, you could end up destroying many things on the board that are a benefit to you such as anthems, O-rings, etc. This doesn't just target creatures so it must be used only in the most dire situations.
Verdict: Powerful but costly and could easily backfire if you aren't paying attention.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's -6 Ability - Another pseudo sweeper we can use. This one will be targeted only at our opponent though. If this does go off successfully, we lose nothing but take a whole lot. With this ability, you will win the game. There is no doubt. It will be over. However, you've got to get Sorin to 6 loyalty. Not really a difficult task seeing as we will have a ton of blockers to protect him. However, I wouldn't strive to use his ability unless you just want to throw a big t-bag to the opponents face. Hmm...so I destroy your best cards and THEN beat you over the head with them? SOLD. I see the theft of plansewalkers by this ability less as us gaining something and more as dragging away our opponents best threats. I mean, really, what are we going to do with a Koth of the Hammer at 3 loyalty?
Verdict: Powerful, game ending ability. Then again, aren't all PW abilities supposed to be like that? We are playing Sorin anyway so feel free to use this ability whenever you'd like.
So, is there anything else I've forgotten? I think that pretty much covers all the sweepers available to us.
Sweepers. I think we are, at some point, going to have to use them. Luckily for us, we happen to be in the correct colors for all kinds of sweepers. Why don't we take a look at what we have on the table?
White Sweepers
Day of Judgment - The standard. Take all creatures and blow them up. 4 mana isn't that hard of an investment to make either.
Verdict: This is the gold standard for mass removal in standard right now.
Divine Reckoning - 4 Mana kills all creatures on the field but one. This may not be the best decision for us as tokens may be the only targets for us. Sure, choosing to save a hero from our own sweep is good but not when our opponent can save their titans or geists. This card does have flashback so you get a little extra value out of it.
Verdict: I wouldn't suggest this one, though.
Phyrexian Rebirth - 6 mana is a heavy investment to make in a sweeper. By the time we need it, it might be too late. However, this is the only card to actually synergies with our own strategy while simultaneously hosing our opponent. Wreck your board? Check. Give myself a big, fat token? Don't mind if I do.
Verdict: A solid sweeper with a slightly prohibitive mana cost. Use at your own risk.
Black Sweepers
Black Sun's Zenith - The current standard in black mass removal. This card is versatile. Rather than wrathing, it weakens the board. The best things about this card are that it can be used at 3 mana and that it goes back into the deck for use later. However, where Day of Judgment stops titans at 4 mana, Black Sun's Zenith takes 8. Also, it's double black costed. Then again, it does still take a normal, non-anthemed Geist out at 4 mana.
Verdict: A solid, reusable sweeper overall.
Life's Finale - I think this card has been mostly overlooked. It costs 6 mana to cast, so it is certainly expensive. It also has double black in the mana cost. A similarly restrictive issue. However, it does wrath the board and then allows you a mini Surgical Extraction. It won't nab any cards from the opponents hand but it does knock out any threats still in the deck. It might be nice to wrath a Geist and then knock out other copies from the deck. However, I think once we get to 6 mana, we won't be worried about needing a sweep. We'll either be dead or winning by then.
Verdict: Solid but overcosted.
Colorless
Ratchet Bomb - The only colorless sweeper at our disposal. at 2 mana, it can come down early but takes a bit to charge up and might have a little to much precision accuracy. However, this can take out some fairly annoying threats and will leave our tokens unharmed (unless we have to pop it at 0). It's already in most sideboards it seems.
Verdict: Solid, precise and accurate. It certainly has its place.
So, is there anything I've forgotten? I think that pretty much covers all the sweepers available to us.
I'd like to point out, people are debating spirit lord. Hes yet another 3 cmc slot which they have a ton of those. Theres talks about cuting down St. taft to 2 of in favor of him or not running him. While I think not running him is stupid (Image+ spirit lord is stupid good + it hits midnight tokens, doomed tokens, and St. taft...) It seems like deck thery wise, clogs up their deck a little, giving us a decient shot to over run them before its settled. Again, I'm really down with running 3 dojs in the side (testing out burning them a bit with priest) Since my version runs elspeth, that gives me 5 sweepers (One condtional)
First and foremost, I've been playing the original TokenTown deck for a long time now (With Honor of the Pure and Day of Judgment, that version), and my deck/sideboard is made more or less specifically to combat a relatively large number of U/x Delver decks (Both UR and UW) and an even larger number of random blue control decks (namely UB and Esper). While the deck generally is known to have really good matchups against aggro in its current version (the GW deck, that is), I had to cut the Timelies from main in order to find room for the Lingering Souls, and without the four Days maindeck (which I wouldn't be happy about with 4 Sorins main + Gather the Townsfolk) Doomed Traveler just didn't seem quite as appealing. With that said this list has never been tested by me (mostly due to the fact that DKA isn't out on Cockatrice yet), so it might need some changes.
Sideboard is primarily built to fight control, what with bonus O-Rings and Heroes. The new card I'm trying out for that matchup is Thraben Doomsayer, since if he sticks against a control deck relatively early, they'll be in some sewius twubblz. Days and Timelies are obviously for the creature matchups, and the D-Blades are for the matchups where GftT simply won't cut it.
--Ac_C
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King, thanks so much for making the primer. I hope you'll continue to fine tune it as time goes on? If you like, I've always liked making primers and wouldnt mind helping.
At the very end is a couple things I'd like you too add (more or less a few things that need testing and options we shouldnt rule out yet)
But I'm really stupid worried about spirits, w/u humans and w/u shananagins in general. My thoughts on it:
Discard
Prevention (nevermore)
Swarm through it
Sword carriers
Sweepers
All of those seem valid.
I've decided on running 3 dojs in the side. necessay evil (Also siteing whos the beat down, great artical BTW, I always refer to that one too) Im thinking about taking out timely all togather... Just dunno when Id use it. I mean, aggro, but priest and DoJ should seal the deal anyways.
To toss my thoughts on Evolving wilds I run 2. Generally its helped just ensure I get black. It hasn't messed with my tempo yet, and helped me once.
Faith's shield. I can tell you right off the bat, its use is either to protect shrine or a walker, it isnt brave the elements, its saves walkers and artifacts. Maybe a hero. Currently I think its a win-more card, because nothing we need to protect is super relivent or linch pin to us.
We have to start testing. once cockatrice has its update, I'll be all over this. So until then I think its important for us to simply gather a large pool of things worth testing, spend some time trying it out, than posting our results.
If you wouldnt mind adding to the primer:
Suturn priest to the 2 cmc slot? She actually does something worth noting, she can hurt aggro really hard and the mirror. Ive got her slotted in for testing.
Hex parasite in the side- He eats planeswalkers. Realivent in vampires, control of all form, mirror, township, ect
swords. We do have evastive dudes, these could mess up games. War and peace fights off w/u body and mind hurts control (Kill them with mill) and gives us a token, Feist and famine untaps our life link land!
nevermore in the side. We can name crusader, ratchet bomb, doj, all spirit people I hate. Maybe?
verious deck lists by users
the pros and cons of green splash
a spoiler box for testing results
placements of the deck (to validate our claims of this being tier 1)
I'd like to point out, people are debating spirit lord. Hes yet another 3 cmc slot which they have a ton of those. Theres talks about cuting down St. taft to 2 of in favor of him or not running him. While I think not running him is stupid (Image+ spirit lord is stupid good + it hits midnight tokens, doomed tokens, and St. taft...) It seems like deck thery wise, clogs up their deck a little, giving us a decient shot to over run them before its settled. Again, I'm really down with running 3 dojs in the side (testing out burning them a bit with priest) Since my version runs elspeth, that gives me 5 sweepers (One condtional)
Suture, Hex, Swords, Nevermore, and Evolving wilds have all been added into card options tabs.
I also made a new tab discussing wrath effects and copypastad Trichronos' list, citing him and giving him credit. Thank you for the nifty write up =)
Pros/cons of splashing other colors is being worked on as we speak. WBG and WBU will be listed, and the lists will not be very in depth because I personally feel that it is a bad idea and generally discourage doing so. Also, the thread is about WB, I want to keep our discussions on one general road.
The matchups tabs is gonna take some time, I have tested against pretty much all of the pre DKA tier 1 decks and took notes of my results/key cards in the matches, but actual statistics and play by plays are lacking on my end at the moment.
UW humans is without a doubt going to be our biggest threat. Luckily, we dont have many others (majority of our SB reserved for responding to other SB) so we have room to work with on countering them.
As for UW spirits, I think it's gonna flop. I think it is a worse version of our deck and the new spirit lord is overrated and easy to kill. Who cares if spirits have hexproof? Anyone trying to single target a token deck is bound to lose regardless. They are just as vulnerable to wrath effects as we are, but dont recover as quickly.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
As for UW spirits, I think it's gonna flop. I think it is a worse version of our deck and the new spirit lord is overrated and easy to kill. Who cares if spirits have hexproof? Anyone trying to single target a token deck is bound to lose regardless. They are just as vulnerable to wrath effects as we are, but dont recover as quickly.
What they lack in the department to recover from a wrath effect, they gain in the department of preventing the wrath effect. Don't underestimate the power of Mana Leak.
That said, I still think this deck is more powerful than the u/w spirits deck and a few wrath effects out of the sideboard would be a really powerful suprise against any swarm-tribal decks. They wouldn't expect it, might even board out mana leak or tap-out when your going to hit 4 mana. We can recover if we wrath, they can't.
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Testing has shown that a MIDRANGE aggro has been our most successful method. We still manage to outrace the fastest aggro decks and keep up with the more recent tempo strategies. We are not white weenie. We are not humans tribal. I like to describe this deck as a W/B MIDRANGE TOKEN RECURSION SWARM AGGRO CONTROL AWESOME. That's my take on it.
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Creatures (7)
3 Hero of Bladehold
4 Doomed Traveler
Token Spells (12)
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Intangible Virtue
Artifacts (3)
3 Shrine of Loyal Legions
Removal (7)
3 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel
12 Plains
5 Swamp
Here is a sample list for a more control based variant:
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Creatures (3)
3 Hero of Bladehold
Token Spells (11)
3 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Intangible Virtue
Artifacts (2)
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
Control (13)
2 Day of Judgment
4 Despise
3 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel
11 Plains
6 Swamp
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Creatures (10)
3 Hero of Bladehold
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Accorder Paladin / Suture Priest
Token Spells (12)
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Honor of the Pure
Control (7)
3 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel
12 Plains
5 Swamp
This list is a personal brew, featuring control heavy early game and mid-late game aggro. When I am piloting it I imagine myself slowly pressing down on a gas pedal, never over committing, just steadily accelerating. I help my opponents burn all of their early game resources and then gradually ease into an overwhelming board presence for the win. This deck has tested positively against EVERY tier 1 deck currently in the meta, and I believe it is almost at the point of perfection(for me and my playstyle anyways).
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Creatures (7)
3 Hero of Bladehold
4 Doomed Traveler
Token Spells (11)
3 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
Enchantments(4)
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Despise
3 Doom Blade
2 Oblivion Ring
Draw (2)
2 Altar's Reap
Lands (24)
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel
11 Plains
6 Swamp
2 Day of Judgment
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Grand Abolisher
3 Revoke Existence
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Stony Silence
Statistics:
Mana
Card costs-
White mana- 30 Symbols, 65%
Black mana- 16 symbols (including FB), 35%
Mana Produced-
14 white mana sources (58.3%)
11 black mana sources (45.8%)
3 colorless sources (12%)
CMC Curve
1 cmc- 8 total, 22.2%
2 cmc- 12 total, 33.3%
3 cmc- 10 total, 27.7%
4 cmc- 6 total, 16.6%
^ I LOVE this mana curve. Plays out very nicely, and has been very versatile and flexible.
1 drops
RDW: Stormblood Berserker, Koth of the Hammer, Hero of Oxid Ridge. Warns us of slagstorm/ancient grudge. Stopping the T2 stormblood makes a HUGE difference. The only time I ever lose to RDW is if I fail to get a single Intangible Virtue off and they drop a Hero of Oxid Ridge. Despise makes it almost impossible for them to beat us.
WRR: Tears them apart so bad, making an already easy match-up a pretty much guarantee win. Hits Wurmcoil Engine, Primevil Titan, Garruk Relentless, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Solemn Simulacrum, Acidic Slime. All of their win conditions are picked off.
UW tempo/Delver/Illusions: Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets, Lord of the Unreal. Hitting their snapcasters really pisses them off, and picking out their lords hurts their wincon a lot. Worst case scenario they waste a mana leak to protect themselves, still a win for us.
Mirror: Hero of Bladehold, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. You should know how much this would hurt.
Doomed Traveler- Pretty much agreed that this is currently our only decent creature spell at 1cmc.
Faith's Shield- Excellent defensive spell.
Undying Evil- Provides defense against wrath effects.
Tragic Slip- Cheap but restrictive spot removal.
2 Drops
Intangible Virtue- One of the undisputed 4-ofs in this deck. Must have.
Gather the Townsfolk- Another choice selection for us, and can become amazing during late gameplay, making it a worthy topdeck at any time.
Shrine of Loyal Legions- Another solid candidate to fit in our 2cmc slots. Most of our spells will be white, and this can turn out to be a game ender similar to Shrine of Burning Rage if you drop a Sorin and generate an emblem or Intangible Virtue.
Skirsdag High Priest- Kill something and tap three to spawn a 5/5. He is only listed so that I can tell you how horrible he is for us. This is a card you build decks around, and does not belong here.
Suture Priest- One of the previously overlooked cards, this can become a valuable resource in our deck, especially against any aggro decks.
Grand Abolisher- Some are deciding to run it as a two-of in MB, with one or two more copies in SB. Can be undeniably powerful, but as usual the meta will need to stabilize before we can accurately judge where this card belongs. Will see play from us either way.
3 drops
Midnight Haunting- A great card for us, recommend running as a 3 or 4 of. Do not fail to note that it is an INSTANT, meaning that if we decide to leave a few mana open on opponents turn while holding some spot removal and they decide to not cast anything, there is nothing better than taking advantage of their caution and dropping this. Allows us a bit more flexibility when playing conservatively.
Blade Splicer- 3/3 first strike token for the deck with a little 1/1 blocker attached is how we see this. This card has been generally outclassed by our several other 3cmc options, but still not bad.
Lingering Souls- MUST HAVE 4.
Thraben Doomsayer- Another possible option for us. Unfortunately it doesnt generate tokens when cast as our other 3cmc spells do, but can eventually outshine it's opposing contenders if left unchecked for a few turns. Another meta-based decision.
Oblivion Ring- Always has been, and always will be amazing for anyone running white. The question for us is how many, and again we must wait before we can know for sure.
Wakedancer Subpar.
4 drops
Hero of Bladehold- A game ender for us. Probably our primary game winner, highly recommended.
Bloodline Keeper- If we obtain additional methods of spawning vampire tokens then this card will be a game finishing must-have. Unfortunately, it is terrible right now. It never flips, and is far too slow.
Day of Judgment- Some people like to run at least one at all times just in case, others say it helps opponents more than ourselves in almost every scenario. Old card, we all know how it works. Recommended for more control heavy variants.
5+ CMC
Grave Titan- Our other finishing creature choice. He is more powerful, and guarantees a win in our deck unless dealt with immediately, but at the cost of two more mana than the hero. If you play in a control heavy meta then I suggest running them, because its more common for games to last long enough to get this powerhouse out.
Elspeth Tirel- Old card, interacts well with our token based deck, but has proven to be too slow in the more aggro variants. Holds good synergy with our control variants, but still debatable. Personal choice.
Wurmcoil Engine- Saves us from wrath effects, which will undoubtedly become a weakness for us. Unfortunately, with Ancient Grudge still lurking around and our new land giving all of our creatures lifelink and deathtouch, Wurmcoil has lost a little value.
Lands
Vault of the Archangel- A must have for us. Run only as a 2 or maybe 3 of, having more than one out at a time is pointless.
Isolated Chapel- The only dual land we have. MUST RUN 4 COPIES.
Evolving Wilds- If you still find yourself wanting for a better way to appropriate your lands then this is the best option after the chapel. It can slow down our tempo a bit, but having access to at least one black mana is VITAL.
Ratchet Bomb
Stony Silence-
Nevermore-
Timely Reinforcements
Hex Parasite-
Sword of Body and Mind
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Feast and Famine
Celestial Purge
Grafdigger's Cage
Revoke Existence
Divine Offering
Grand Abolisher
Surgical Extraction
Black Sun's Zenith
Nihil Spellbomb
Dismember
2. Shrine of Loyal Legions is one of your best cards IF and ONLY if your meta doesnt side much artifact hate. Almost all of our spells are white. It is an insurance policy against wrath effects and Ratchet Bombs. In this deck it can finish a game in a similar fashion of it's counterpart Shrine of Burning Rage. Sadly, most metas have redoubled their arsenal of artifact/enchantment removal.
3. No Blade Splicers. Lingering Souls and Midnight Haunting are superior and adding Oblivion Ring makes our 3cmc spots too tight. She was good, but has become second to the best for us. Sorry, I really liked her.
4. Bloodline Keeper and Skirsdag High Priest are cards that you build decks around, and do not belong in our WB token aggro. Just because something is W or B and spawns tokens does not mean we must make room for it. Tested and proven.
5. Thraben Doomsayer has proven to be suboptimal. Too easily removed, in our tight 3cmc slot, and doesnt spawn tokens when cast. Try it yourself, you will see. In our upcoming aggro meta, he will be a waste of a draw and three mana. Same exact thing goes for Mikaeus the Lunarch.
6. If your personal meta is more control oriented, swap out the Hero of Bladeholds for Grave Titans. They will make you win every game if you can cast it successfully. Bait their counters early, and you win.
Our options for Wrath Effects/Sweepers and Spot Removal
Wrath Effects:
White Sweepers
Day of Judgment - The standard. Take all creatures and blow them up. 4 mana isn't that hard of an investment to make either.
Verdict: This is the gold standard for mass removal in standard right now.
[CARD]
Divine Reckoning[/CARD] - 4 Mana kills all creatures on the field but one. This may not be the best decision for us as tokens may be the only targets for us. Sure, choosing to save a hero from our own sweep is good but not when our opponent can save their titans or geists. This card does have flashback so you get a little extra value out of it.
Verdict: I wouldn't suggest this one, though.
Phyrexian Rebirth - 6 mana is a heavy investment to make in a sweeper. By the time we need it, it might be too late. However, this is the only card to actually synergies with our own strategy while simultaneously hosing our opponent. Wreck your board? Check. Give myself a big, fat token? Don't mind if I do.
Verdict: A solid sweeper with a slightly prohibitive mana cost. Use at your own risk.
Black Sweepers
Black Sun's Zenith - The current standard in black mass removal. This card is versatile. Rather than wrathing, it weakens the board. The best things about this card are that it can be used at 3 mana and that it goes back into the deck for use later. However, where Day of Judgment stops titans at 4 mana, Black Sun's Zenith takes 8. Also, it's double black costed. Then again, it does still take a normal, non-anthemed Geist out at 4 mana.
Verdict: A solid, reusable sweeper overall.
Life's Finale - I think this card has been mostly overlooked. It costs 6 mana to cast, so it is certainly expensive. It also has double black in the mana cost. A similarly restrictive issue. However, it does wrath the board and then allows you a mini Surgical Extraction. It won't nab any cards from the opponents hand but it does knock out any threats still in the deck. It might be nice to wrath a Geist and then knock out other copies from the deck. However, I think once we get to 6 mana, we won't be worried about needing a sweep. We'll either be dead or winning by then.
Verdict: Solid but over-costed.
Colorless
Ratchet Bomb - The only colorless sweeper at our disposal. at 2 mana, it can come down early but takes a bit to charge up and might have a little to much precision accuracy. However, this can take out some fairly annoying threats and will leave our tokens unharmed (unless we have to pop it at 0). It's already in most sideboards it seems.
Verdict: Solid, precise and accurate. It certainly has its place.
Planeswalkers
Elspeth Tirel's -5 Ability - A planeswalker ability that sweeps the board but leaves our tokens intact. It costs 5 mana, 5 loyalty and, in most cases, a planeswalker. I feel that this ability is a bit overcosted if not played right. This is a bit of a strange ability in some respects and must be used very carefully. If you are not careful, you could end up destroying many things on the board that are a benefit to you such as anthems, O-rings, etc. This doesn't just target creatures so it must be used only in the most dire situations.
Verdict: Powerful but costly and could easily backfire if you aren't paying attention.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's -6 Ability - Another pseudo sweeper we can use. This one will be targeted only at our opponent though. If this does go off successfully, we lose nothing but take a whole lot. With this ability, you will win the game. There is no doubt. It will be over. However, you've got to get Sorin to 6 loyalty. Not really a difficult task seeing as we will have a ton of blockers to protect him. However, I wouldn't strive to use his ability unless you just want to throw a big t-bag to the opponents face. Hmm...so I destroy your best cards and THEN beat you over the head with them? SOLD. I see the theft of planeswalkers by this ability less as us gaining something and more as dragging away our opponents best threats. I mean, really, what are we going to do with a Koth of the Hammer at 3 loyalty?
Verdict: Powerful, game ending ability. Then again, aren't all PW abilities supposed to be like that? We are playing Sorin anyway so feel free to use this ability whenever you'd like.
Spot Removal:
Our primary options:
Schondetta has also provided a writeup on our two most appealing removal spells, listing all affected targets that are common in the current meta.
THIS ARTICLE explains the concept of knowing what role to play in your match-ups. KNOW YOUR ROLE.
The flavor in this deck is amazing. It symbolizes Sorin's return to his home world of Innistrad, and his involvement in the war between humans and monsters and our deck is a perfect example of just that- We have our basic and innocent core of human valor and might, heavily supported by a much darker and evil power. Our deck plays out as a TCG story of Sorin using the dark powers he possesses to strengthen and support the white humans in their time of need and together vanquish the enemy.
Entire mortal lifetimes have flitted by since the last time Sorin Markov returned to the world of his birth. He has spent bemused centuries roaming the Multiverse, stopping by Innistrad only when it suited his whims, his thirst for world-spanning travel enabled by his vampiric longevity.
But now he returns to find his homeworld devouring itself. An angel's disappearance has not only endangered the humans of Innistrad, it has smashed a carefully-constructed balance between humanity and the creatures of the night. Sorin knew never to expect peace and harmony on this shadowed world, but he thought he had arranged a kind of effective equilibrium, a set of safety measures designed to keep one side of the scale from tipping too far.
Art by Michael Komarck
But the prodigal vampire returns to witness his blood-feeding kin killing humans at will, werewolf howlpacks preying on the priests and cathars meant to ward them off, and rotting ghouls mounting a siege on the very walls of Thraben. The balance has been lost. Old memories resurface, and the ancient vampire draws his sword under the light of a grim moon. All this was not meant to be.
Centuries ago, Innistrad faced a similar crisis. With a single act of magic, Sorin created a safeguard, a rallying symbol that would struggle to govern the balance between Innistrad's monstrous forces and its humans. He made sure that most humans would have a weapon against the werewolf's curse and wards against the hauntings of geists. His safeguard would ensure the undead ghouls and skaabs would not overwhelm the world. He even betrayed his own vampire brethren to make sure the blood-feeders would never hunt humans to extinction and the demon lords would never triumph over the plane.
This paragon of protection would be Sorin's weapon against an undying darkness, an eternal judge who would fight for the meek and work to sustain life on Innistrad. Click to reveal.
She would be called Avacyn.
Avacyn was Sorin's compromise. She was the legacy he created and left behind as he roamed the Blind Eternities. And she was his betrayal.
Sorin's Origins
The vampire Sorin Markov, the self-serving aristocrat who was once drenched in privilege in his role as the favored lord of Markov Manor, created Avacyn, the angelic champion of the meek and divine source of the protective power on Innistrad.
How did this come to be?
To understand that, we have to learn about another member of the Markov family—Edgar Markov, Sorin's grandfather.
Thousands of years ago, before there were vampires on Innistrad, Edgar Markov was an alchemist in the land that would become Stensia. Famine was sweeping the land, and the old alchemist Edgar searched for a solution that could help the starving families feed themselves. The answer was a brutal one: to undergo a blood ritual that would cause some of the people to feed on blood. It would provide sustenance to those few, reducing demand for the failing crops, but it would also cull the overall population, reducing the number of hungry mouths to feed.
Thus were vampires born on Innistrad.
Vampiric Fury | Art by Matt Stewart
But Edgar Markov's chilling tale has an even darker truth behind it. The famine was an expedient excuse for Edgar's blood magic, but in truth the aging alchemist was experimenting with ways to achieve agelessness for himself and his only grandson, Sorin. A demon called Shilgengar preyed on Edgar's ambition and whispered secrets that would point the way toward Edgar's blood-feeding experiment. Shilgengar also helped the old man overcome his squeamishness at what must be done. Still, Edgar needed prodding for him to go through with the ritual to create the blood-feeders.
And that's when the famine put him over the edge.
The famine might or might not have been Shilgengar's doing.
Either way, it was the genesis of this world's vampires. With his blood magic experiment, Edgar succeeded at finding a way to extend his own life. He anointed Sorin with the same vampiric state—and shockingly, his grandson disappeared.
The trauma of the transformation had caused Sorin's planeswalker spark to ignite.
Sorin's Creation
Sorin was a planeswalker now, but he was also the grandson of the honored progenitor of the entire vampiric race back on his home plane. As the Markov bloodline spawned other bloodlines, Edgar remained the prestigious forefather of all vampires, and Sorin's "life" became like that of a royal.
Over the centuries, as vampires spread further into human lands, Sorin spent more and more time away from his homeworld, sometimes disappearing for years at a time. Vampires became disdainful of the race from which they had spawned, hunting mortal humans more and more boldly, and Sorin became distant from his own vampire-kind.
But Sorin always kept watch on Innistrad. From his world-hopping perspective, he could see the changes on the world of his birth. He saw that as vampires gained in power, the human villages were dwindling. Although he was no longer human himself, he saw the curse his grandfather had brought to the humanity of their world, and he saw that in time, they would be wiped out by the blood-feeders.
Sorin borrowed from long-held beliefs about the moon and the afterlife, forging a warrior who could hold back vampires and other monstrous forces that would extinguish life on Innistrad. He created an angel he named Avacyn and tasked her with protecting the plane. Through her, the magic of faith would create true power to fend off the darkness. The Church of Avacyn grew up around the power Sorin invested in her.
Some of the vampires understood Sorin's act, but most reviled him as a traitor. Edgar still lives in Markov Manor to this day, and to this day Sorin is not welcome there. Avacyn was Sorin's gift to his home, but she was also his betrayal of his own people.
But now Avacyn has disappeared from Innistrad. How could this have happened? Sorin has always had a dark edge to him, and he has never hesitated to destroy anyone who got in the way of his ambitions. But at the same time, he never meant these shadows to rise over the world of his birth. Sorin might be his grandfather's creation, but Sorin's own creation was meant to preserve a way for humans to survive Edgar's crime.
And now, after Sorin's long absence, it is the disappearance of that creation that has called him home again.
Something to look forward to
The lore of this block alone lets us know that our archetype has more to come in the final set. The war will be resolving, and each new card symbolizing that is a possible candidate to strengthen our list. Perhaps Avacyn will become the new staple, or more of Sorin's power will be released and we can incorporate that. Either way, we already stand as a tier1 contender, and the prospects of becoming stronger are strong.
That's the summary of what Ive learned about our archetype thus far, if you have any questions feel free to ask.
DISCLAIMER: I am in no way stating that if you do not run this list or follow these suggestions then you are wrong. This is simply the product of MUCH playtesting, discussing, theorycrafting, and debate. I have been working on constructing this archetype since sorin was spoiled, and have evaluated almost every card beneficial to our theme. Take it or leave it, this is me trying to help everyone. Some of you are going in really odd directions with this.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
As much as I want to play B/W tokens I dont think it can be a dominate force by any means until ratchet bomb rotates.
Is the game plan to play around it as best as possible? Wait until everyone trying BW tokens moves to what actually ends up being the best deck, and then get the wins in while its off the radar some?
I dont know I would love to be convinced otherwise so I could play B/W tokens but it doesnt seem doable.... I mean whats the plan?
People are under the impression that Ratchet Bomb is an immediate game ender for this deck. It doesnt kill any of our permanent token generators, and there's FB on Lingering Souls. Dont over commit in game 2 unless its for the win. I stopped worrying about them, theyre fairly easy to play around. Worst case scenario we can run Divine Offering in the SB.
Just dont play like Tempered Steel and try to dump your entire hand by turn 4.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
That does make sense especially with hero and FB to quickly rebuild board position. That being said im going to wait until you and others post some results with it before I pick up the new cards I would probably need
I believe there is a large SCG open event the day after DKA is t2 legal and with a relatively refined list it would probably be a great time to see if it can shake it up
We have some stats posted in the previous thread in the Standard New Card Discussion forum. =)
WRR, RDW, and TS are all very easy matchups for this list.
Delver can be challenging, but win percentages still favor us (65/35ish)
UW Humans is our toughest match up at the moment. It's always a 50/50, and I am currently testing out 4 Despise and an O-Ring in the SB which will swap out the Doom Blades/GFTT to pick out Mirran Crusader and Geist of Saint Traft, which are the things that makes them a touch match up.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
Best way to deal with bomb would be to remove Glissa. Single bomb isn't much scarier than any other sweeper.
Although if they pack 4x Glissa, 4x bomb, 4x green zenith you're probably screwed.
So 4x mirran crusader and 4x hero somewhere in 75 against Glissa decks, they can't really have answers for those and all the tokens simultaneously.
Also nevermore is legitimate answer to bomb recursion. Although probably not worth it since you won't sb it against any other deck whereas crusader can be good against other WRR builds.
I really dont see the BG antimeta becoming a common archetype, I took it as more of a one time sneak shot kind of thing.
We have plenty of responses to any BG artifact deck if it ever becomes a serious threat.
etc...
The deck did well because it was unexpected, imo. Element of suprise has been lost.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
I expect to see 4-of bomb in a lot of 75's. Be it recursion with that land that returns artifacts, Glissa or just as a 2-mana wrath against tokens.
Stony silence probably is a better call than crusader. It stops equipment also and can be used in UW matchup, without equipment their creatures straight lose to tokens' numbers.
UW primarily relies on Honor of the Pure for their boosts from my experiences.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
12 Plains
5 Swamp
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel
Instant (7)
3 Doom Blade
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Lingering Souls
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Elspeth Tirel
4 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Hero of Bladehold
3 Doomed Traveler
Artifact (3)
3 Shrine of Loyal Legions
3x Stony Silence
3x tragic slip
1x oblivion ring
3x timely reinforcements
3x ratchet bomb
like i said earlier in the thread i would be play testing this archetype all day and night with some friends.im not an English professor but i will do my best in this write up
a few notes about the card choices
4x Sorin is the best way to go. there as never been a time were i didnt need more. -2ing and leaving him at one is almost always a death sentence for him especially against aggro. and you have one to f/u with. i recommend 4.its just never a dead card in your hand.against control i can see cutting 1 for the SB.
I felt i needed more than 4 anthems (aside from sorin) as i was never drawing them in a timley manner. i tried 5 and wasnt cutting it. 6 seems like a sweet spot. that feeling you get when you have a board full of 1/1's and your opponent is relaxing because he is in no immediate danger than you drop 2-3 anthems on your turn and your like problem bro. yeah great feeling.i just think the token deck needed more cards to give each creature more value. especially in this 01/22/12 meta. amplified by the fact that there is currently minimal enchant hate
The 2 cmc kill card slot is highly subjective. i felt that non black killed a lot more than non artifact. in my testing it proved so. i can see going to 4 in the MB but 3 felt comfortable. the Oblivion Ring was there to clean up the rest. (shrines, pw's, swords, ratchet bomb, bears o my)
The land base i choose happens to be the one that was discussed a couple pages back about being the right number. you might want to adjust your swamp/plains ratio depending on your specific build. i dont know why everyone is getting so crazy on the land base. its not like were going to be casting Obliterators . i had ZERO problems with the lands other than the occasional land screw witch is present in all decks. the Vault is absolutely ridiculous. i felt so ahead with this out . it gives the deck A LOT of late game reach. it says "my creatures are better than yours" against aggro and " come at me bro" to wolf run and Solar flare. putting your opponent in that situation where they have to think about if they should attack into it or block from it is really devastating. the beauty of the vault is it can be used both offensively and defensively.
And now onto the Matchups
- i and 5 other friends got together at our local game store for some brewing and play testing. the decks i went against were, Wolf Run Ramp, Tempered Steel, Mage Blade, and u/w humans.
i had two matches against each opponent the first match against each friend was non SB included to playtest the overall consistency of the deck archetype. the second match was with SB's. use this data however you feel like. im going to post only the second matches with SB option because i found no fault in the game ones with this deck other than the follwoing
game ones where it seemed i was in favor to least favored
1. Wolf run ramp 60/40 - 65/35
2. tempered steel 60/40 - 61/39
3. mage blade 50/50 - 45/55
4. u/w humans 45/55 - 45/55
again these are without sideboard and the % is just an educated guess
Match against Wolf Run Ramp:
GAME 1 - i keep a nice hand.hes playing a pretty generic list with 3 inferno titans and 2 slagstorms. i curve out nicley. by turn 4 i double drop anthem with 4 tokens on the field (at this point all he has done is ramp) and swing in for 12 damage.he drops a inferno titan and shoots one of the flyers (i had two humans and two spirits) . next turn i draw Sorin and anthem them. i swing in. he blocks but is still dead anyways as i have 3 guys to his one blocker and plenty of gas
GAME 2 - (im the worse at sideboarding btw) i take out 3 shrines and put in 3 Stony Silence( as there counter productive) and as i figured he brought in ratchet bombs and 1 more slagstorm.
he mulls to six and drops an early ratchet bomb. i play an early virture and leave mana open for the removal in my hand. i draw a silence and play it on turn 5. i eot play midnight haunting. on my turn 6 i play a Lingering souls and gather the townsfolk, next turn he slagstorms.OUCH! and gets in with poison. i than flashback souls and play hero of blade hold. he drops primetime and does his thing. my turn i play sorin and doom blade his primetime. i plus sorin so he doesnt die to inkmoth and get in with hero. he drops another slagstorm and kils all but the hero. i ended up -2ng with Sorin and with a virtue out he died to a hero attack.
Thoughts - i never felt behind at all in this match. for wolf run all there doing for the first couple turns are ramping while your building your board. even with the slagstorms. you have so much resilience in the form of PW's and lingering souls FB and eot haunting. there titans are a joke when you have kill spells or vault open.the only way i felt he couldve won was constant hate and WW'd inkmoths. they play a lot of card we dont care about (sad robot thrun garruk etc)
Match against Mage blade:
GAME 1 - this matchup was a a little of blur to me. i was really hungry and shaky at the time( i went out after to eat ,dont worry im fine now)
i mull to 6 on the draw. i play a traveler turn 1. he flips a delver and gets in.
somewhere between turn 3-5 im just playing token spells. he counters some and vapors some tokens. while he beats in with the now two delvers. around turn 6~ . his board is all chummed up and i have a few tokens with an HtP out. i drop sorin and + him. he o rings sorin and manages to get there. ( this is the first time playing against counters, i personally just play into them, with lingering souls its almost ok but snapcaster mage makes it more difficult). he wins
GAME 2 - i take out 3 doom blades and put in 2 timley and 1 oblivion ring (for swords and maybe ratchet bomb)in hindsight idk if it was best to bring in bombs against there 0-2 drops against mine. input would be appreciated here
i keep a good hand. drop a traveler.EOT haunting. he taps out and plays a geist after that. i play lingering souls and pass. he holds up leak and gets in with the geist . i play a virture around the leak and get in with tokens. he drops a sword of war and peace on geist and gets in. im at like 6 or something. i play a vault and get in some. i end up winning here because of the vault. he had no answer to it and he had no choice but to block with his guys or he was going to die. i gained a lot of life from this and my guys are all death touch. . i win this game due to this and dropping a late elspeth
GAME 3 - i kept a 2 lander and didnt draw land for a couple turns. he drops an ratchet bomb early and a geist to follow. i squeeze in a timley but hes so far ahead of me due to horrible hand/land screw.i survive for a while due to chump blocking but im getting no where .he gets there and wins.
Thoughts - id say this is 50/50. like i mentioned. mage blade HATES vault. in my non SB match she won me 2 games and they simply cant do anything about it (until the board for it later in the future) mage blade is a tempo deck and tokens is mid range. i feel as if there tempo plan is a bit weaker against us than other decks.this match comes down to who draws the best cards.(find the vault people)
Match against Tempered steel:
GAME 1 - my friend kept a great hand but i was on the play. i drop an early shrine and pretty much play controlish as he drops a turn 3 tempered steel. i chump block with my tokens all the way to turn 5-6 ish. i pop the shrine and hold vault open. he doesnt know what to do lol. if he attacks in he loses all his guys (mine too but i gain a lot of life) if holds back i still gain a lot of life at the cost of tapping out. he chooses to hold back. i drop a virture next turn followed by a sorin and its GG.
GAME 2 - i board out -2 hero and -3 doom blade for +3 timley and +2 Stony silence. i didnt ever find out what he boarded in. he never drew it and i didnt ask afterwards.perhaps shrines. this game was pretty much the same thing. i have more chumpers than he has guys due to the nature of a tokens deck that gets me into the late game. i dropped a silence early with 2 shrines in my hand. at this time i drop an elspeth followed by a sorin and its just gg. i out creatured him and even with his tempered steel. my board was always better
Thoughts - this has to be easily one of our best matchups. the tempo you have over them is ridic. your spells gain you +1 more dude to theres and even though the have a steel out or drop a hero (which you have black for removal)you just get there.even when your trading dudes or double blocking (like i did in the non SB match) they end up with an empty hand and you have souls to FB and token spells and PWs left .once again vault shines here.
Match against U/W Humans:
GAME 1 - he is on the play and curves out nicley. tuen 1 champion into htp into mirran crusader into bladehold.im keep an ok hand. but his Htp makes a huge change in tempo. his creatures are bigger and better han mine and mirran crusader is a little be-otch. he holds up mana leaks as i have a virture and a traveler on the board by like turn 5-6. and he destroys me with beats
GAME 2 - i take out 3 shrines (too slow) and 1 sorin for 3x timely and 1 oblivion ring (for crusader)
i start off good with an early virtue into a midnight haunting . he drops two HtP and days my tokens. he gets a crusader in there but i have no vault or o ring. by time i get guys on the field with vault open im already at like 6~ life and he ratchets away my guys for the win.even with a turn 4 timely
Thoughts - i think this matchup is pretty bad. i mean after 2 matches (1 w/o sb one w/) he still manages to get there. unlike tempered steel. his deck as counters for my late game and has better creatures Plus his own anthem. i think vault is good here also if you manage to get there. but crusader still houses you plus they can easily play Ghost Quarter
well thats the brunt of it.if you have any questions or comments let me know. there is plenty of material i probably missed. i think the deck overall is going to be a contender in the coming season. even at this point where only half of Dark Ascension spoiled. if anything is spoiled that changes in anyway the pace of the deck. we will have to re play test. vault is a good card and like i said gives us a lot of late game reach. the decks weakness is other "weenie" decks with blue. this is only a small sample and not to be taken verbatim for every matchup. i wouldnt change anything in the mainboard as of yet. and i really hate Mirran Crusader. that card is gay and needs to die.
* a note about myself. i have been playing for 2 years with lots of pro exposure i do not consider myself a noob and i dont consider myself a pro.a lot of my friends have been playing for like 600 years and two of them are level 2 judges. i haven't played much standard recently but i have spectated a lot of it on the internet and at my FNM and i consider myself a Legacy guy, an EDH guy and a scholar at card trading (im a buisness man) .im just letting you know this so you can caliber my play experience to your thoughts. *
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
If U/W humans or anything spirit/geisty starts popping out in the new meta i would definatley bored out cards like Doomed traveler for Despise and day of judgment or get my ratchet bombs to 3 and call it a day
In matchups like Mono-Red and UW Humans we will be the control deck. Against Solar Flare and WWR we will be the aggro deck. Against Delver it will all depend on your draw.
Also, Evolving Wilds needs to be considered.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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Thank you for the link. Ive known to play much more conservatively against those fast aggro decks, now I have a better way of explaining the concept to others.
Also, Evolving Wilds has generally been decided as not worth the loss of tempo in this deck. We really only need one black mana source, so most agree that it is unnecessary.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
Same. Exact. Problem. I spent a good hour staring at a pic of the card and staring at the deck list. Every time I tried to remove something I would undo the change within ten seconds. I gave up, resolving that I want to see what the meta looks like before I try to evaluate a card that can so easily be a hit or miss.
Currently testing out the list I have but -2 GFTT and +2 HotP. Only on my second match, havent even drawn into them yet.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
At the very end is a couple things I'd like you too add (more or less a few things that need testing and options we shouldnt rule out yet)
But I'm really stupid worried about spirits, w/u humans and w/u shananagins in general. My thoughts on it:
- Discard
- Prevention (nevermore)
- Swarm through it
- Sword carriers
- Sweepers
All of those seem valid.I've decided on running 3 dojs in the side. necessay evil (Also siteing whos the beat down, great artical BTW, I always refer to that one too) Im thinking about taking out timely all togather... Just dunno when Id use it. I mean, aggro, but priest and DoJ should seal the deal anyways.
To toss my thoughts on Evolving wilds I run 2. Generally its helped just ensure I get black. It hasn't messed with my tempo yet, and helped me once.
Faith's shield. I can tell you right off the bat, its use is either to protect shrine or a walker, it isnt brave the elements, its saves walkers and artifacts. Maybe a hero. Currently I think its a win-more card, because nothing we need to protect is super relivent or linch pin to us.
We have to start testing. once cockatrice has its update, I'll be all over this. So until then I think its important for us to simply gather a large pool of things worth testing, spend some time trying it out, than posting our results.
If you wouldnt mind adding to the primer:
My list:
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Hero of Bladehold
Removal: 5
2 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
2 Oblivion Ring
Pump: 4
4 Intangible Virtue
Spawn Vomit: 14
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Lingering Souls
3 Midnight Haunting
3 Shrine of Loyal Legions
4 Isolated Chapel
10 Plains
5 Swamp
3 Vault of the Archangel
2 Evolving Wilds
Walkers: 5
2 Elspeth Tirel
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Day of Judgment
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 cage:)
1 Divine Offering
2 Sword of War and Peace
4 Suture Priest
White Sweepers
Day of Judgment - The standard. Take all creatures and blow them up. 4 mana isn't that hard of an investment to make either.
Verdict: This is the gold standard for mass removal in standard right now.
Divine Reckoning - 4 Mana kills all creatures on the field but one. This may not be the best decision for us as tokens may be the only targets for us. Sure, choosing to save a hero from our own sweep is good but not when our opponent can save their titans or geists. This card does have flashback so you get a little extra value out of it.
Verdict: I wouldn't suggest this one, though.
Phyrexian Rebirth - 6 mana is a heavy investment to make in a sweeper. By the time we need it, it might be too late. However, this is the only card to actually synergies with our own strategy while simultaneously hosing our opponent. Wreck your board? Check. Give myself a big, fat token? Don't mind if I do.
Verdict: A solid sweeper with a slightly prohibitive mana cost. Use at your own risk.
Black Sweepers
Black Sun's Zenith - The current standard in black mass removal. This card is versatile. Rather than wrathing, it weakens the board. The best things about this card are that it can be used at 3 mana and that it goes back into the deck for use later. However, where Day of Judgment stops titans at 4 mana, Black Sun's Zenith takes 8. Also, it's double black costed. Then again, it does still take a normal, non-anthemed Geist out at 4 mana.
Verdict: A solid, reusable sweeper overall.
Life's Finale - I think this card has been mostly overlooked. It costs 6 mana to cast, so it is certainly expensive. It also has double black in the mana cost. A similarly restrictive issue. However, it does wrath the board and then allows you a mini Surgical Extraction. It won't nab any cards from the opponents hand but it does knock out any threats still in the deck. It might be nice to wrath a Geist and then knock out other copies from the deck. However, I think once we get to 6 mana, we won't be worried about needing a sweep. We'll either be dead or winning by then.
Verdict: Solid but overcosted.
Colorless
Ratchet Bomb - The only colorless sweeper at our disposal. at 2 mana, it can come down early but takes a bit to charge up and might have a little to much precision accuracy. However, this can take out some fairly annoying threats and will leave our tokens unharmed (unless we have to pop it at 0). It's already in most sideboards it seems.
Verdict: Solid, precise and accurate. It certainly has its place.
*Edited to add this section*
Planeswalkers
Elspeth Tirel's -5 Ability - A planeswalker ability that sweeps the board but leaves our tokens intact. It costs 5 mana, 5 loyalty and, in most cases, a planeswalker. I feel that this ability is a bit overcosted if not played right. This is a bit of a strange ability in some respects and must be used very carefully. If you are not careful, you could end up destroying many things on the board that are a benefit to you such as anthems, O-rings, etc. This doesn't just target creatures so it must be used only in the most dire situations.
Verdict: Powerful but costly and could easily backfire if you aren't paying attention.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's -6 Ability - Another pseudo sweeper we can use. This one will be targeted only at our opponent though. If this does go off successfully, we lose nothing but take a whole lot. With this ability, you will win the game. There is no doubt. It will be over. However, you've got to get Sorin to 6 loyalty. Not really a difficult task seeing as we will have a ton of blockers to protect him. However, I wouldn't strive to use his ability unless you just want to throw a big t-bag to the opponents face. Hmm...so I destroy your best cards and THEN beat you over the head with them? SOLD. I see the theft of plansewalkers by this ability less as us gaining something and more as dragging away our opponents best threats. I mean, really, what are we going to do with a Koth of the Hammer at 3 loyalty?
Verdict: Powerful, game ending ability. Then again, aren't all PW abilities supposed to be like that? We are playing Sorin anyway so feel free to use this ability whenever you'd like.
So, is there anything else I've forgotten? I think that pretty much covers all the sweepers available to us.
just 1... Elspeths -5
Wow...can't believe I missed that one. I'll go ahead and update the original post.
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Shrine of Loyal Legions
2 Mortarpod
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
Support:
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Elspeth Tirel
2 Go for the Throat
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Day of Judgment
Land:
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Vault of the Archangel
2 Swamp
11 Plains
2 Day of Judgment
4 Timely Reinforcements
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Doom Blade
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 Thraben Doomsayer
First and foremost, I've been playing the original TokenTown deck for a long time now (With Honor of the Pure and Day of Judgment, that version), and my deck/sideboard is made more or less specifically to combat a relatively large number of U/x Delver decks (Both UR and UW) and an even larger number of random blue control decks (namely UB and Esper). While the deck generally is known to have really good matchups against aggro in its current version (the GW deck, that is), I had to cut the Timelies from main in order to find room for the Lingering Souls, and without the four Days maindeck (which I wouldn't be happy about with 4 Sorins main + Gather the Townsfolk) Doomed Traveler just didn't seem quite as appealing. With that said this list has never been tested by me (mostly due to the fact that DKA isn't out on Cockatrice yet), so it might need some changes.
Sideboard is primarily built to fight control, what with bonus O-Rings and Heroes. The new card I'm trying out for that matchup is Thraben Doomsayer, since if he sticks against a control deck relatively early, they'll be in some sewius twubblz. Days and Timelies are obviously for the creature matchups, and the D-Blades are for the matchups where GftT simply won't cut it.
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Suture, Hex, Swords, Nevermore, and Evolving wilds have all been added into card options tabs.
I also made a new tab discussing wrath effects and copypastad Trichronos' list, citing him and giving him credit. Thank you for the nifty write up =)
Pros/cons of splashing other colors is being worked on as we speak. WBG and WBU will be listed, and the lists will not be very in depth because I personally feel that it is a bad idea and generally discourage doing so. Also, the thread is about WB, I want to keep our discussions on one general road.
The matchups tabs is gonna take some time, I have tested against pretty much all of the pre DKA tier 1 decks and took notes of my results/key cards in the matches, but actual statistics and play by plays are lacking on my end at the moment.
UW humans is without a doubt going to be our biggest threat. Luckily, we dont have many others (majority of our SB reserved for responding to other SB) so we have room to work with on countering them.
As for UW spirits, I think it's gonna flop. I think it is a worse version of our deck and the new spirit lord is overrated and easy to kill. Who cares if spirits have hexproof? Anyone trying to single target a token deck is bound to lose regardless. They are just as vulnerable to wrath effects as we are, but dont recover as quickly.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
What they lack in the department to recover from a wrath effect, they gain in the department of preventing the wrath effect. Don't underestimate the power of Mana Leak.
That said, I still think this deck is more powerful than the u/w spirits deck and a few wrath effects out of the sideboard would be a really powerful suprise against any swarm-tribal decks. They wouldn't expect it, might even board out mana leak or tap-out when your going to hit 4 mana. We can recover if we wrath, they can't.