This is obviously a side board card, but is it worth a slot? (I use two SB.) I've scoped out the deck list thread and not a single deck had it in the board. I'm a little shocked and wondering if I'm just missing why this card is bad (or not good enough?).
I've used it specifically against control decks or WW aggro that uses DoJ. Is there something wrong with recalling 1-4 bombs and 1-6 smaller creatures? Twice per card slot? I have had great experience with it, flashback and all. If it lands I usually force counter/kill to use that many more spells, if not I just flash it back and see if they can do it again.
What is the general opinion on this card? Is there something in other lists I'm missing that replaces this card?
if you are getting owned by something, its better to prevent that or play around it better than to accept getting owned and play cards to help you rebuild, i think. even if its just another titan, its probably better. this card doesnt net you any board presence, thats another thing it has going against it.
Titans cost more than this... Expensive doesn't really make sense after that is considered; not to mention we are ramping as is, so playing "big" things should not be a problem.
Yes, it's slow but so is control; spending one turn to get card advantage is worth it if you aren't dead. And they usually kill you around turn... 12-15? I'm not worried about one turn of not attacking. And no, it is not a time walk for them; like saying "Draw-Go" is a time walk for them when you are clearly getting card advantage from some means.
@Tronist: I'm a little confused how you are preventing a control player from controlling. It's hard for Green to stop BSZ or Dissipate. Thrun doesn't stop anything; BSZ, Tribute, Wurmcoil (race better), titans (still race better), one dude at my LGS wins with Army of the Damned (race better). I don't even run Thrun because he has been a complete waste against the UB in my area. Renaissance forces 2 counters out of them or it resolves adding a whole lot more threats to your hand; both are good.
As far as playing around things is concerned, that's what Renaissance is. It's playing around something you cannot otherwise circumvent. Show me how a WRR deck gets past a DoJ; you can't just counter that. You have to play more conservatively, but in the standard WRR lists it's only like 6 titans max; that looks like a choice between dumping a titan and winning board, and just losing board and never mattering if they have a DoJ. You can't play around counter magic, it plays around you. So instead of sitting quietly in your chair and wondering if your stuff will get answered just windmill slam it and Renaissance after they run out of answers.
Have you guys tried the card against control? It lets you play as aggressively as you can because you have a ton of back up. It's like fighting RDW, "Yawn... just live until they are in top deck mode then win." If red could "give up a time walk" to have all it's ammo back, it would have double the reach as it would normally have; that is terrifying for the meta (try it once, just have them skip a turn and take a full hand from their yard). Renaissance puts double the threats in your hand, twice.
Admittedly, I play 2 versions of WR; Jund (with 9 titans pre-board, 16 major threats post-board vs control) and Dungrove Run (with 28 Green and 2 Red creatures). Probably attributes to the success of this card a bit.
Okay... I'll apologize, I feel like I had a rant. Typed out a few different responses, tried to be short; not working out.
i actually think its an interesting card. it looks worthy of playtesting in the suggested role (sideboard vs. pure control decks). control isn't big in my metagame but this is something i'll keep in mind.
Spider Spawning would be better imo. If they day you or w/e and you have 3-6+ creatures in your yard, this will get you that many 1/2 spiders with reach.
Also, it has flashback, so if they deal with the first 3-6 spiders, you can run out 3-6 more.
Reach is actually really good right now, and kessig wolf run means that every one of the 1/2s is a potential threat.
I think it's strange you don't run Thrun. It's been so good for me that I'm running 2 MD now. Seems a third of games are won by me playing Thrun and them not being able to deal with it.... He not just good against control, he'd good against just about everything that plays removal except the Mirror.
On the the card in question:
It seems OK, but certainly not great. O-ring, Dissipate and Surgical Extraction all see play and negate the effect of this card. I don't think it's what the deck wants.
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
@redneuro: The topic that didn't exist before this thread is beating a dead horse. Got it.
As far as running more Titans goes; I can see the argument in it, but this has flashback so it requires a Dissipate or turns into a +1 card (if they counter it again). If they use a Dissipate then they will not likely have another for 2-4 turns so you can risk fighting a Mana Leak.
I also run 9 Titans MB in my current list, so adding more feels silly.
@Oldaughd: Thrun is good, I can't deny that; my meta just rips him a new one though. Between BSZ, sacrifice mechanics and a weird Architect/Sword juggling build there is no use. I also only own one, so he feels extra susceptible to the Image trick.
O-Ring and Dissipate are things we just have to live with. Fortunately I feel I can get away with 3 Acidic Slime and 2 Beast Within MB, so the O-Ring normally only delays me a couple turns. Dissipate, like O-ring, can only be a 4 of, so I just hope that I have better draws. I usually do, but I run a high threat density since RDW is basically non-existent in my meta. Ya, basically they just beat Renaissance, but not entirely... and some cards have to beat other cards anyway.
Surgical Extraction is not good; there was an article I read about a week ago explaining why, I'd link it if I could remember it. The basic premise was that Extraction is not a counter spell nor does it kill anything. Extraction reduces the "X" count, where X is threats, counter magic, or something you do not want them to play. If you are gunning for threats, it's great against UB control because you might kill off 66% of their threats (assuming they have like 2 Grave Titans and 1 Sphinx as finishers). However, against something like my Jund Run (9 Titans, 2 Garruk, and 2 WWR+minor creatures) you'll find that removing any one card only reduces the threat percentage by 5-10%. All that is without considering the cards needed to get into a position to extract anyway; Dissipate and O-Ring as mentioned before do not help this card. I'm basically not concerned with Extraction at all; in fact it gives me more reason to want to play Renaissance so I can reload my hand, unload my yard potentially dodging Extraction, and force more answers from an opponent who is running a blank card in his hand. If it makes me exile a card in my hand, then it came out even (Card to kill the original + extraction), but that's not as likely as being disadvantaged a card.
_______________________
I'm starting to think this card is doing me good because I'm running a different list than most people. Here is my list, you can decide if it's the deck or the card, but the more posts I see the more I lean on the deck making the card good.
This is obviously a side board card, but is it worth a slot? (I use two SB.) I've scoped out the deck list thread and not a single deck had it in the board. I'm a little shocked and wondering if I'm just missing why this card is bad (or not good enough?).
I've used it specifically against control decks or WW aggro that uses DoJ. Is there something wrong with recalling 1-4 bombs and 1-6 smaller creatures? Twice per card slot? I have had great experience with it, flashback and all. If it lands I usually force counter/kill to use that many more spells, if not I just flash it back and see if they can do it again.
What is the general opinion on this card? Is there something in other lists I'm missing that replaces this card?
"Reveal a Dragon"
if you are getting owned by something, its better to prevent that or play around it better than to accept getting owned and play cards to help you rebuild, i think. even if its just another titan, its probably better. this card doesnt net you any board presence, thats another thing it has going against it.
Yes, it's slow but so is control; spending one turn to get card advantage is worth it if you aren't dead. And they usually kill you around turn... 12-15? I'm not worried about one turn of not attacking. And no, it is not a time walk for them; like saying "Draw-Go" is a time walk for them when you are clearly getting card advantage from some means.
@Tronist: I'm a little confused how you are preventing a control player from controlling. It's hard for Green to stop BSZ or Dissipate. Thrun doesn't stop anything; BSZ, Tribute, Wurmcoil (race better), titans (still race better), one dude at my LGS wins with Army of the Damned (race better). I don't even run Thrun because he has been a complete waste against the UB in my area. Renaissance forces 2 counters out of them or it resolves adding a whole lot more threats to your hand; both are good.
As far as playing around things is concerned, that's what Renaissance is. It's playing around something you cannot otherwise circumvent. Show me how a WRR deck gets past a DoJ; you can't just counter that. You have to play more conservatively, but in the standard WRR lists it's only like 6 titans max; that looks like a choice between dumping a titan and winning board, and just losing board and never mattering if they have a DoJ. You can't play around counter magic, it plays around you. So instead of sitting quietly in your chair and wondering if your stuff will get answered just windmill slam it and Renaissance after they run out of answers.
Have you guys tried the card against control? It lets you play as aggressively as you can because you have a ton of back up. It's like fighting RDW, "Yawn... just live until they are in top deck mode then win." If red could "give up a time walk" to have all it's ammo back, it would have double the reach as it would normally have; that is terrifying for the meta (try it once, just have them skip a turn and take a full hand from their yard). Renaissance puts double the threats in your hand, twice.
Admittedly, I play 2 versions of WR; Jund (with 9 titans pre-board, 16 major threats post-board vs control) and Dungrove Run (with 28 Green and 2 Red creatures). Probably attributes to the success of this card a bit.
Okay... I'll apologize, I feel like I had a rant. Typed out a few different responses, tried to be short; not working out.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Also, it has flashback, so if they deal with the first 3-6 spiders, you can run out 3-6 more.
Reach is actually really good right now, and kessig wolf run means that every one of the 1/2s is a potential threat.
On the the card in question:
It seems OK, but certainly not great. O-ring, Dissipate and Surgical Extraction all see play and negate the effect of this card. I don't think it's what the deck wants.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
As far as running more Titans goes; I can see the argument in it, but this has flashback so it requires a Dissipate or turns into a +1 card (if they counter it again). If they use a Dissipate then they will not likely have another for 2-4 turns so you can risk fighting a Mana Leak.
I also run 9 Titans MB in my current list, so adding more feels silly.
@Oldaughd: Thrun is good, I can't deny that; my meta just rips him a new one though. Between BSZ, sacrifice mechanics and a weird Architect/Sword juggling build there is no use. I also only own one, so he feels extra susceptible to the Image trick.
O-Ring and Dissipate are things we just have to live with. Fortunately I feel I can get away with 3 Acidic Slime and 2 Beast Within MB, so the O-Ring normally only delays me a couple turns. Dissipate, like O-ring, can only be a 4 of, so I just hope that I have better draws. I usually do, but I run a high threat density since RDW is basically non-existent in my meta. Ya, basically they just beat Renaissance, but not entirely... and some cards have to beat other cards anyway.
Surgical Extraction is not good; there was an article I read about a week ago explaining why, I'd link it if I could remember it. The basic premise was that Extraction is not a counter spell nor does it kill anything. Extraction reduces the "X" count, where X is threats, counter magic, or something you do not want them to play. If you are gunning for threats, it's great against UB control because you might kill off 66% of their threats (assuming they have like 2 Grave Titans and 1 Sphinx as finishers). However, against something like my Jund Run (9 Titans, 2 Garruk, and 2 WWR+minor creatures) you'll find that removing any one card only reduces the threat percentage by 5-10%. All that is without considering the cards needed to get into a position to extract anyway; Dissipate and O-Ring as mentioned before do not help this card. I'm basically not concerned with Extraction at all; in fact it gives me more reason to want to play Renaissance so I can reload my hand, unload my yard potentially dodging Extraction, and force more answers from an opponent who is running a blank card in his hand. If it makes me exile a card in my hand, then it came out even (Card to kill the original + extraction), but that's not as likely as being disadvantaged a card.
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I'm starting to think this card is doing me good because I'm running a different list than most people. Here is my list, you can decide if it's the deck or the card, but the more posts I see the more I lean on the deck making the card good.
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Acidic Slime
4 Primeval Titan
2 Inferno Titan
3 Grave Titan
Spells+
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Rampant Growth
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Beast Within
2 Black Sun's Zenith
8 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stensia Bloodhall
4 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Batterskull
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sheoldred, Whispering one
2 Creeping Renaissance
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
Yes, the sideboard is totally threat jank, but it works and I like it. Usually have about 7 things to board every game.
"Reveal a Dragon"