Okay, you guys might think I'm nuts but hear me out:
How about playing 4x Delver of Secrets in place of the traditional 6 drop finishers? U/B control decks typically run around 25 or so instants and sorceries maindeck so the chance of flipping a Delver within two turns is reasonably good. A turn 1 Delver is also extremely difficult for many decks to beat, especially when on the play.
Wolf Run decks have little in the way of answers outside of Beast Withinand chumping with Birds of Paradise or possibly Slagstorm if they're the G/R version rather than mono-green splash red. Turn 1 Delver can even race Dungrove Elder quite effectively in my testing.
In the mirror and against Solar Flare it's also a huge advantage if your opponent is trying to pump out 6 mana guys while you just play out a Delver and are able to hold up counter mana every turn while Delver eats away at their life.
The biggest problem for it of course is Red decks as they have a ton of cheap removal spells that deal with Delver and you can't really expect to have answers to them all.
I've been testing out a U/B build with just 4 Delver and 4 Snapcaster as the creature base and it seems pretty effective in the current meta with Wolf Run as the deck to beat. Any thoughts?
I got 4x Delver in the board for the mirror match and I tried it against Wolfrun and it just doesn't work better than having 6 drops that can own the board.
Math:
Delver T1 Flip on upkeep VS Thrun T3(No Sac Outlets to topdeck)
Lets say the thrun was off a Rampant growth and you wring fleshed the Bop
It would only be good if these requirements are met;
You only have one in the deck.
You only get the one in opening hand whilst on the play.
You only play it vs Control
Yeah. It's pretty much unplayable. Maybe in board but still, I don't think I would play it, ever.
Board out Zeniths and Verdicts for it against a control mirror. The chances of facing a control mirror are pretty low, though, so it's probably not worth it.
Pro: t1 or t2 cast then keep counter mana up the rest of the game. Never tap out for a six drop
Con: Flimsy before flip, and a terrible late game draw.
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I got 4x Delver in the board for the mirror match and I tried it against Wolfrun and it just doesn't work better than having 6 drops that can own the board.
Math:
Delver T1 Flip on upkeep VS Thrun T3(No Sac Outlets to topdeck)
Lets say the thrun was off a Rampant growth and you wring fleshed the Bop
Its about even and depends on who goes first and with Opp having more board threats to deal with relying on drawing 2+ Delver is foolish.
Thrun is usually only a 2-of and sometimes not even maindeck. Also if they try to Zenith for it we can at least counter that since it's pretty obvious what they're fetching with a Zenith for 4.
But regardless, everyone should be running some number of sac effects in their deck anyways which makes the Thrun argument at least a bit less relevant.
@NidStyles - the deck is basically already built in a way that can support him with all of the instants and sorceries we pack. Whether he's good enough or not in U/B depends more on the metagame I think but vs Wolf Run I've found him quite effective, especially if you can get them to sac their hexproof dudes or counter their Zeniths for hexproof dudes.
I would agree that he's definitely loses a lot of value if you don't get to drop him turn 1 though.
one of the cool things about playing UB control is removal is dead against you for a late portion of the game. I feel adding in 4 of this creature just makes their removal useful again while making our list 4 cards tighter.
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As far as the mirror is concerned, delver is kind've like a bad azure mage. Now, if you really wanted to push that angle, you could try boarding into some sort of blue aggro/tempo deck that plays out like fish and maybe try azure mage, snapcaser and delver. I really only see this being effective as a transformational sideboard strategy though. If you make them take out removal, a critical mass of small efficient creatures would decent.
I don't think Delver of secrets would really shine in standard.
Delver needs to be built around and besides Ponder there isn't much cards to flip him effectively.
However, in Legacy he's really awesome in Canadian threshold with their 8 cantrips (4 BS, 4 Ponder), 18 lands and 30+ Sorceries/Instants.
In conclusion if you want to make it work you shouldn't try to fit Delver in an existing archetype, but in whole new one. The problem's that, imho, you don't have the tools in the current standard.
delver is pretty bad IMO. It really does nothing. We are not trying to play a 1 drop to accompany a deck full of creatures. Late game it just dies to easily without it gaining you anything. IMO its one of the worst cards in the set also. Its a trap card. It looks like a 1cmc 3/x except 1 drop aggressive creatures are only good in decks with 20+ creatures which would make the odds of it flipping 33% or less.
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I could see him in a rdw shell. I mean they run so much burn and so few lands that he might work. Other than that hes bad especially in a control deck.
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I run four Delver of Secrets in the sideboard only for the mirror match when i side out 4 black sun's zenith and two tribute to hunger, then i put in 2 frost titans and the 4 Delver of Secrets
I run four Delver of Secrets in the sideboard only for the mirror match when i side out 4 black sun's zenith and two tribute to hunger, then i put in 2 frost titans and the 4 Delver of Secrets
You run 4 Black Sun's Zenith main board??? Wow must have a lot of GW tokens in your meta...
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however in my builds i run 22 to 25 cards that can flip them. Aren't them enough?
Let's say you run a deck with 25 instants/sorceries and 60 cards and your opening hand consists of 3 of those instants and sorceries (about the amount you would expect on average). So 22/53 remaining cards flip Delver in your first upkeep which translates to 41.5%.
The probability of Delver NOT flipping in your first two upkeeps is then:
(31/53) * (30/52) = 33.7%
Or in other words you have about a 66% chance of Delver flipping by your second upkeep. The probability of it flipping by the 3rd turn is 81%.
This also doesn't factor in that you might have library manipulation (example Ponder) that lets you change the top card of your library.
Anyways, I think calling Delver a bad card (or one of the worst cards in Innistrad) is quite wrong. Maybe this isn't the right deck and maybe Standard isn't the right format for it but the card has already put up results in Legacy so it clearly has potential. In anycase it's infinitely more playable than a lot of the limited garbage in Innistrad if for nothing more than the mise factor of flipping a turn 1 Delver on your first opportunity.
Anyways, I think calling Delver a bad card (or one of the worst cards in Innistrad) is quite wrong. Maybe this isn't the right deck and maybe Standard isn't the right format for it but the card has already put up results in Legacy so it clearly has potential. In anycase it's infinitely more playable than a lot of the limited garbage in Innistrad if for nothing more than the mise factor of flipping a turn 1 Delver on your first opportunity.
I don't think Delver of secrets would really shine in standard.
Delver needs to be built around and besides Ponder there isn't much cards to flip him effectively.
However, in Legacy he's really awesome in Canadian threshold with their 8 cantrips (4 BS, 4 Ponder), 18 lands and 30+ Sorceries/Instants.
In conclusion if you want to make it work you shouldn't try to fit Delver in an existing archetype, but in whole new one. The problem's that, imho, you don't have the tools in the current standard.
I've played my esper control deck against 3 delver decks today. I went 1-2 in matches.
It's not a great card, but the problem is, it will eventually flip. If the flip it turn 2, you're in a lot of trouble, and if it doesn't flip it's still kind of like a time bomb waiting to happen.
Both the UR aggro deck, and the monoblue illusions/delver deck are very good right now.
As much as I hate to admit it, delver is doing some work in this format.
EDIT - b/c of delver, tokens, and poison I just updated my maindeck and SB. I added wring flesh to the SB, because as LSV said in his video - ratchet bomb may as well be a basic land.
My point, plus if he doesn't transform is a chump blocker that can give you the 1 more turn you need to take board control. and i'm glad to see that my point is shared into winning decks
doom blade would like to have a word with your point.
Just because something sees play in a randomly daily event means nothing. That burn deck obviously wins because of the burn. That illusion deck obviously needed a 1 drop.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
doom blade would like to have a word with your point.
Just because something sees play in a randomly daily event means nothing. That burn deck obviously wins because of the burn. That illusion deck obviously needed a 1 drop.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Well, todd anderson's article about the deck at star city games is relevant as well.
I don't like the deck - I don't think its good, and I wouldn't play it. But it is a decent deck, probably tier 1.5 or tier 2. It has a lot of favorable matchups, and delver is one of its better cards.
Also, did you even see that link? Like 75% of the decks run delver. And its been this way for a few days now, in several events. It's not a fluke single day or single tournament thing.
The deck is actually good because of snapcaster, not delver. But just putting your fingers in your ears and ignoring tournament results isn't a great strategy.
Haha @ slipknot gonna troll the Standard forums now. jk jk
Delver is obviously good in that it serves as Blue's Nacatl (yes, he is very good.) Which means that although Delver is not the MVP of the deck, he definitely packs a punch and warrants removal. One drop creatures that do that are obviously good enough.
As it stands - I won't build and B or W deck with him involved. I was thinking more along the lines of U/R but that's another thread. Just putting in my 2cents on Delver
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How about playing 4x Delver of Secrets in place of the traditional 6 drop finishers? U/B control decks typically run around 25 or so instants and sorceries maindeck so the chance of flipping a Delver within two turns is reasonably good. A turn 1 Delver is also extremely difficult for many decks to beat, especially when on the play.
Wolf Run decks have little in the way of answers outside of Beast Withinand chumping with Birds of Paradise or possibly Slagstorm if they're the G/R version rather than mono-green splash red. Turn 1 Delver can even race Dungrove Elder quite effectively in my testing.
In the mirror and against Solar Flare it's also a huge advantage if your opponent is trying to pump out 6 mana guys while you just play out a Delver and are able to hold up counter mana every turn while Delver eats away at their life.
The biggest problem for it of course is Red decks as they have a ton of cheap removal spells that deal with Delver and you can't really expect to have answers to them all.
I've been testing out a U/B build with just 4 Delver and 4 Snapcaster as the creature base and it seems pretty effective in the current meta with Wolf Run as the deck to beat. Any thoughts?
Math:
Delver T1 Flip on upkeep VS Thrun T3(No Sac Outlets to topdeck)
Lets say the thrun was off a Rampant growth and you wring fleshed the Bop
T2: You-20 Wolf-17
T3: You-20 Wolf- 14
T4: You-16 Wolf-11
T5: You-12 Wolf-8
T6: You-8 Wolf-5
Its about even and depends on who goes first and with Opp having more board threats to deal with relying on drawing 2+ Delver is foolish.
You only have one in the deck.
You only get the one in opening hand whilst on the play.
You only play it vs Control
Yeah. It's pretty much unplayable. Maybe in board but still, I don't think I would play it, ever.
Pro: t1 or t2 cast then keep counter mana up the rest of the game. Never tap out for a six drop
Con: Flimsy before flip, and a terrible late game draw.
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Thrun is usually only a 2-of and sometimes not even maindeck. Also if they try to Zenith for it we can at least counter that since it's pretty obvious what they're fetching with a Zenith for 4.
But regardless, everyone should be running some number of sac effects in their deck anyways which makes the Thrun argument at least a bit less relevant.
@NidStyles - the deck is basically already built in a way that can support him with all of the instants and sorceries we pack. Whether he's good enough or not in U/B depends more on the metagame I think but vs Wolf Run I've found him quite effective, especially if you can get them to sac their hexproof dudes or counter their Zeniths for hexproof dudes.
I would agree that he's definitely loses a lot of value if you don't get to drop him turn 1 though.
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Delver needs to be built around and besides Ponder there isn't much cards to flip him effectively.
However, in Legacy he's really awesome in Canadian threshold with their 8 cantrips (4 BS, 4 Ponder), 18 lands and 30+ Sorceries/Instants.
In conclusion if you want to make it work you shouldn't try to fit Delver in an existing archetype, but in whole new one. The problem's that, imho, you don't have the tools in the current standard.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Delver is good in legacy where you can flip it super easily even in an aggro deck. I don't think it's that good in standard.
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You run 4 Black Sun's Zenith main board??? Wow must have a lot of GW tokens in your meta...
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Currently Playing: RGBWAggro LoamWBGR ,BU Reanimator UB, RG 2 Land Belcher GR & UGW Pro Bant WGU
Author of: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207749 (Proven Competitive: Aggro Loam Thread)
Let's say you run a deck with 25 instants/sorceries and 60 cards and your opening hand consists of 3 of those instants and sorceries (about the amount you would expect on average). So 22/53 remaining cards flip Delver in your first upkeep which translates to 41.5%.
The probability of Delver NOT flipping in your first two upkeeps is then:
(31/53) * (30/52) = 33.7%
Or in other words you have about a 66% chance of Delver flipping by your second upkeep. The probability of it flipping by the 3rd turn is 81%.
This also doesn't factor in that you might have library manipulation (example Ponder) that lets you change the top card of your library.
Anyways, I think calling Delver a bad card (or one of the worst cards in Innistrad) is quite wrong. Maybe this isn't the right deck and maybe Standard isn't the right format for it but the card has already put up results in Legacy so it clearly has potential. In anycase it's infinitely more playable than a lot of the limited garbage in Innistrad if for nothing more than the mise factor of flipping a turn 1 Delver on your first opportunity.
Yeah very heavy on GW tokens and humans
U/B probably isn't the deck for Delver but U/R certainly is. Check out this deck that finished second at SCG Las Vegas:http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42116
Delver would probably be good in the sort of Bone-Blade U/B deck, not is a Draw-Go style
Check the MODO dailies - it's already happened. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2981687
I've played my esper control deck against 3 delver decks today. I went 1-2 in matches.
It's not a great card, but the problem is, it will eventually flip. If the flip it turn 2, you're in a lot of trouble, and if it doesn't flip it's still kind of like a time bomb waiting to happen.
Both the UR aggro deck, and the monoblue illusions/delver deck are very good right now.
As much as I hate to admit it, delver is doing some work in this format.
EDIT - b/c of delver, tokens, and poison I just updated my maindeck and SB. I added wring flesh to the SB, because as LSV said in his video - ratchet bomb may as well be a basic land.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
doom blade would like to have a word with your point.
Just because something sees play in a randomly daily event means nothing. That burn deck obviously wins because of the burn. That illusion deck obviously needed a 1 drop.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Well, todd anderson's article about the deck at star city games is relevant as well.
I don't like the deck - I don't think its good, and I wouldn't play it. But it is a decent deck, probably tier 1.5 or tier 2. It has a lot of favorable matchups, and delver is one of its better cards.
Also, did you even see that link? Like 75% of the decks run delver. And its been this way for a few days now, in several events. It's not a fluke single day or single tournament thing.
The deck is actually good because of snapcaster, not delver. But just putting your fingers in your ears and ignoring tournament results isn't a great strategy.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Delver is obviously good in that it serves as Blue's Nacatl (yes, he is very good.) Which means that although Delver is not the MVP of the deck, he definitely packs a punch and warrants removal. One drop creatures that do that are obviously good enough.
As it stands - I won't build and B or W deck with him involved. I was thinking more along the lines of U/R but that's another thread. Just putting in my 2cents on Delver