Automaton is already an illusion as he enters the battlefield and metamorph is, more often than not, copying an illusion. The Xenograft only helps the Lord, GA and wurmcoils/sun titans.. And for the mana cost, you may as well be casting the latter anyway. Xeno is way too slow to be considered useful, let alone playable.
This.
His list was probably from the rumor mill thread, they've got some wonky ideas about the deck. Still trying to play Phantasmal Dragon and the like. This deck relies on keeping tempo with a beater here, a counter there, remove that, so on so forth.
I do have the one mana cantrips, Ponder and Preordain, but yes, no BIG draw. I really don't feel like I need it.
I've though about throwing in some Vapor Snags, but haven't playtested it yet. So far its working fine without them. I've played around a Phyrexian Obliterator, a Primeval Titan, and a Wurmcoil Engine and won the game.
I've never played against any kind of board-sweeps and I can say how well I'd fare against them.
I do have the one mana cantrips, Ponder and Preordain, but yes, no BIG draw. I really don't feel like I need it.
I've though about throwing in some Vapor Snags, but haven't playtested it yet. So far its working fine without them. I've played around a Phyrexian Obliterator, a Primeval Titan, and a Wurmcoil Engine and won the game.
I've never played against any kind of board-sweeps and I can say how well I'd fare against them.
Time for more playtest!
Trust me, 4 Ponders and 2 Jace's Ingenuity will free up a slot for you, and strengthen your end game.
Well, you have nice counter density, so Sweepers aren't gonna be "TURN 4 I KILL EVERYTHING!"
Go on the offensive turns 1-2.
Turn 3, drop a Grand Architect and play Quicksilver Amulet, or go on the offensive.
Turn 4, beat down. Holding up mana for counters. End of turn, if they play nothing drop a creature into play via the Quicksilver Amulet.
And repeat.
This allows you to run a top end of Wurmcoil Engine very easily or Consecrated Sphinx.
Go on the offensive turns 1-2.
Turn 3, drop a Grand Architect and play Quicksilver Amulet, or go on the offensive.
Turn 4, beat down. Holding up mana for counters. End of turn, if they play nothing drop a creature into play via the Quicksilver Amulet.
And repeat.
This allows you to run a top end of Wurmcoil Engine very easily or Consecrated Sphinx.
With GA you can already cast Wurmcoil turn 3-4. Quite easily.
Quicksilver is just too inefficient for us, since we're not trying to cheat out 15/15s.
With GA you can already cast Wurmcoil turn 3-4. Quite easily.
Quicksilver is just too inefficient for us, since we're not trying to cheat out 15/15s.
The cheating out isn't the point.
It allows us to sit back and wait until the end of their turn to make our plays. We don't get caught in those situations where we should have kept open mana for counters.
We establish board dominance, and then sit back.
If the opponent tries to encroach on our board position we counter. If not, we play a creature.
It allows us to sit back and wait until the end of their turn to make our plays. We don't get caught in those situations where we should have kept open mana for counters.
We establish board dominance, and then sit back.
If the opponent tries to encroach on our board position we counter. If not, we play a creature.
May as well mainboard 4 Leyline of Anticipation then. Serves the same purpose if you don't play a really expensive creature like an Eldrazi or a Praetor. And it lets you Preordain on your opponents turn!
On second thought, I'll just Blue Sun/Jace's Ingenuity some card draw up.
Damn, he's currently in my list - first reason is small chance for me to buy Adaptive Automaton. I just don't like him. He doesn't fit my deck. On the other hand Dragon has capability of dealing with finishers and most important thing - HE IS FLYING. After some testing - flying creatures were everywhere. Hawsk - Glint and Squadron. Sphinxes. Skirges. Nighthawks. Having no flying creature means you can be found with your pants down. And brutally raped by guys who are "unblockable". So I wouldn't dismiss Dragon so fast. Or I'd try to find some efficent flying beater. I was really hoping for Krovikan Mist to be reprinted because it's an essence of being efficent flying guy for illusions deck.
Try playing with Levitation then. Its hard to play turn 4 since we have to tap out for it without leaving a counter up but i think it would suit your playstyle/mind set pretty well.
If you are thinking about running levitation, I would probably run it in the sideboard. I know what you are talking about with our deck having a weakness to flyers, though. I literally lost a game simply because I had no way of stopping an Inkmoth Nexus with a sword. It was one of the new U/W Caw-Blade lists, and I easily could have raced them damage wise, except I had no answer for the Inkmoth.
But since Levitation would be there more for protection then aggressiveness, I think that it is better as a sideboard option than a MD option.
P.S. I know that I haven't said much lately; that's mainly because I have been testing different lists that I've seen here. I'm currently testing the U/B list w/ swords. I do have a question: Has anyone tested Jace Beleren to see whether he is able to survive for more than one turn? If so, then I'll probably go back to that option.
If you are thinking about running levitation, I would probably run it in the sideboard. I know what you are talking about with our deck having a weakness to flyers, though. I literally lost a game simply because I had no way of stopping an Inkmoth Nexus with a sword. It was one of the new U/W Caw-Blade lists, and I easily could have raced them damage wise, except I had no answer for the Inkmoth.
But since Levitation would be there more for protection then aggressiveness, I think that it is better as a sideboard option than a MD option.
I run Vapor Snag in my MD to deal with blockers once my pumped up beaters are online, and in your case, It would deal with the Inkmoth perfectly on defence.
2x Levitation is much better in MD than it is in the sideboard. you never want to draw more than one and you should be able to find at least one by turn 4 using your cantrips. Remember, Levitation is better on offence that it is in defence. Giving all of your guys evasion is why its in the deck in the first place, after all. If you need to deal with creatures, just bounce the buggers or just make sure you leave up counter mana.
Just one more quick word on Levitation, you should ideally be dropping it on turn 4 or 5 and swinging, depending on if you need to leave up counter spell mana. Your opponent would probably have left up a defender or two and would not expect a full attack, taking anywhere between 10-15 damage in one turn. Levitation is one of your deck's biggest bombs if you have creatures on the field.
It is a more midrange control card, so if you're an aggro build, you'd be better off with Vapor Snags and Into the Roils to get the damage through.
Nice primer, i didn't realize that we have 12 possible lords by now. I would definitely try this deck
So i have a few questions :
a) I'm thinking about UB Illusion deck with splashed black just for removal. Will the 8 conditional duals slow me? I'm thinking about 14 islands + 8 duals for 5 black cards mainboard.
b) What about a mono blue version with Turn to Frog as a removal? Did you have some good/bad experiences with it?
c) Do we have any real card advantage in mono-blue now? I know about Jace's Ingenuity, but what else? 3 for 5 is too much mana and drawing 2 cards for 3 mana doesn't seem good for me. (Divination).
A) No, it shouldn't. U/B Illusions splashing for removal isn't bad, but it tends to be worse than U/B splashing for removal and Dark Tutelage. You'll be good on speed. Turns 1-3 you can safely drop 4 of your lands, turns 2-3 and onward you can generally drop 4 of them safely.
b) I haven't played with Turn to Frog myself, but I've heard it's a nifty combat trick in Mono U.
c.) Nope. Right now we do alright with good tempo, forcing the opponent to 1-1 into Topdeck mode (which we dominate), that's generally when Jace's Ingenuity shines.
I'm curious. Since all of the illusions are blue and many people are already running Grand Architect plus a Treasure Mage toolbox, why not include Caged Sun as a one-of? It's functionally a tutorable blue lord that is immune to creature removal. It can also be copied by Metamorph for even more shenanigans.
I'm curious. Since all of the illusions are blue and many people are already running Grand Architect plus a Treasure Mage toolbox, why not include Caged Sun as a one-of? It's functionally a tutorable blue lord that is immune to creature removal. It can also be copied by Metamorph for even more shenanigans.
If I have Grand Architect online and I'm dropping a Treasure Mage, I'd much rather tutor a Wurmcoil Engine for the "beat face, gain a ton of life" gameplan. Caged Sun does nothing in a vacuum. Wurmcoil can win games singlehandedly.
If I have Grand Architect online and I'm dropping a Treasure Mage, I'd much rather tutor a Wurmcoil Engine for the "beat face, gain a ton of life" gameplan. Caged Sun does nothing in a vacuum. Wurmcoil can win games singlehandedly.
I'm not saying drop Wurmcoil Coil for Caged Sun. Architect is my main deck right now, so, I know how awesome Wurmcoil is.
However, there are occasions where Caged Sun would be more valuable than Wurmcoil Engine. If I have a bunch of blue creatures already on the field, then Caged Sun can be a stronger play than the Engine. Additionally, if I have a Wurmcoil Engine in hand, I can use my creatures in play to pop out a Caged Sun, then use my Islands to get Wurmcoil in. So, all of my blue creatures are being pumped and I've got a Wurmcoil Engine on the field.
Really, my ideal toolbox for this would be something like:
I'm not saying drop Wurmcoil Coil for Caged Sun. Architect is my main deck right now, so, I know how awesome Wurmcoil is.
However, there are occasions where Caged Sun would be more valuable than Wurmcoil Engine. If I have a bunch of blue creatures already on the field, then Caged Sun can be a stronger play than the Engine. Additionally, if I have a Wurmcoil Engine in hand, I can use my creatures in play to pop out a Caged Sun, then use my Islands to get Wurmcoil in. So, all of my blue creatures are being pumped and I've got a Wurmcoil Engine on the field.
Really, my ideal toolbox for this would be something like:
2 Caged Sun
1 Mindslaver
2 Wurmcoil Engine
I just can't think of a time I would want Caged Sun over Wurmcoil or Mindslaver. If you have a bunch of Blue durdles out, including an Architect and a Treasure Mage, isn't it Win-More to Lord them even harder when you could be pulling Wurmcoil- which is resistant to Sweeps, protects you from Titans, and swings the game massively in your favor.
Anyone consider Sundial of Infinite? Since the sacrifice thing is an instant ability, couldn't you end the turn on your turn in response to its effect if someone targets your stuff?
Anyone consider Sundial of Infinite? Since the sacrifice thing is an instant ability, couldn't you end the turn on your turn in response to its effect if someone targets your stuff?
Think of it this way. They Doom Blade during your upkeep. You can end the turn and save the turn, or not end the card and lose the card. (Though it would be able to wipe the stack before the sac resolves).
Testing shows it's an undercosted Time Stop for them, at worst. At best, it's a dead draw no matter when you pull it.
If the opponent intends to do it any time prior to the main phase, that means you could play something without worrying about the card being removed at EoT or freely attack because removal and mana was spent on another target. If they're doing it before you play anything else, that's uncomfortable for them, not you.
My main reason for suggesting it was that I'm considering this deck and I'd like to have a means aside from Lord of Illusions to be my only saving grace.
If the opponent intends to do it any time prior to the main phase, that means you could play something without worrying about the card being removed at EoT or freely attack because removal and mana was spent on another target. If they're doing it before you play anything else, that's uncomfortable for them, not you.
My main reason for suggesting it was that I'm considering this deck and I'd like to have a means aside from Lord of Illusions to be my only saving grace.
It would be very nice, but the illusions drawback is rarely troublesome. Sundial was playtested, and nobody whatsoever liked it. Maybe it has uses, but not here.
Hello everyone!
Zelderex, I just want to first say, great thread. You don't usually see primer's made this well. It wasn't boring to read, it's useful information, and it's a lot of GOOD information on something new and under the radar.
So, i've been having great success with a Naya B-Pod deck, but ever since I sleeved up Illusions, i've been hooked. So i'm going to take apart the Naya deck and move towards a Birthing pod toolbox deck, since i still like b-pod a lot, but i'm going to focus on illusions for a bit.
Here is the deck i'm running currently minus sideboard. (I have a pretty decent idea for what I want the sideboard to be though.)
Pretty straight forward aggro deck. Images are the freaking stone cold nuts in this deck. Metamorphs are sweet and can be powered out with Architect, as well as Wurmcoil, as soon as turn 3. Playing wurmcoil and copying it with image is sweet.
Not to mention copying their bombs...
Any suggestions with this deck? In playtesting it, it's working really well. The creatures synergies are almost nuts sometimes. Image copying Lord is ridiculous. 3/3 hexproof that pumps other illusions? Yes.
Venser making all your creatures unblockable is basically just going to win you the game, I think it's worth testing, and i'll let everyone know how it goes!
Also bouncing Seas post board etc for more draw is nice.
This.
His list was probably from the rumor mill thread, they've got some wonky ideas about the deck. Still trying to play Phantasmal Dragon and the like. This deck relies on keeping tempo with a beater here, a counter there, remove that, so on so forth.
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4x Phantasmal Bear
4x Lord of the Unreal
4x Adaptive Automaton
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Phantasmal Dragon
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Ponder
3x Preordain
Counter Spells
3x Deprive
3x Spell Pierce
2x Mana Leak
4x Halimar Depths
17x Islands
I've though about throwing in some Vapor Snags, but haven't playtested it yet. So far its working fine without them. I've played around a Phyrexian Obliterator, a Primeval Titan, and a Wurmcoil Engine and won the game.
I've never played against any kind of board-sweeps and I can say how well I'd fare against them.
Time for more playtest!
Trust me, 4 Ponders and 2 Jace's Ingenuity will free up a slot for you, and strengthen your end game.
Well, you have nice counter density, so Sweepers aren't gonna be "TURN 4 I KILL EVERYTHING!"
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What about Quicksilver Amulet?
Game plan:
Go on the offensive turns 1-2.
Turn 3, drop a Grand Architect and play Quicksilver Amulet, or go on the offensive.
Turn 4, beat down. Holding up mana for counters. End of turn, if they play nothing drop a creature into play via the Quicksilver Amulet.
And repeat.
This allows you to run a top end of Wurmcoil Engine very easily or Consecrated Sphinx.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
With GA you can already cast Wurmcoil turn 3-4. Quite easily.
Quicksilver is just too inefficient for us, since we're not trying to cheat out 15/15s.
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The cheating out isn't the point.
It allows us to sit back and wait until the end of their turn to make our plays. We don't get caught in those situations where we should have kept open mana for counters.
We establish board dominance, and then sit back.
If the opponent tries to encroach on our board position we counter. If not, we play a creature.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
May as well mainboard 4 Leyline of Anticipation then. Serves the same purpose if you don't play a really expensive creature like an Eldrazi or a Praetor. And it lets you Preordain on your opponents turn!
On second thought, I'll just Blue Sun/Jace's Ingenuity some card draw up.
Try playing with Levitation then. Its hard to play turn 4 since we have to tap out for it without leaving a counter up but i think it would suit your playstyle/mind set pretty well.
I don't like running 21 lands tbh, though I feel safe at 22 if I have some nice dig effects.
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But since Levitation would be there more for protection then aggressiveness, I think that it is better as a sideboard option than a MD option.
P.S. I know that I haven't said much lately; that's mainly because I have been testing different lists that I've seen here. I'm currently testing the U/B list w/ swords. I do have a question: Has anyone tested Jace Beleren to see whether he is able to survive for more than one turn? If so, then I'll probably go back to that option.
I run Vapor Snag in my MD to deal with blockers once my pumped up beaters are online, and in your case, It would deal with the Inkmoth perfectly on defence.
2x Levitation is much better in MD than it is in the sideboard. you never want to draw more than one and you should be able to find at least one by turn 4 using your cantrips. Remember, Levitation is better on offence that it is in defence. Giving all of your guys evasion is why its in the deck in the first place, after all. If you need to deal with creatures, just bounce the buggers or just make sure you leave up counter mana.
Just one more quick word on Levitation, you should ideally be dropping it on turn 4 or 5 and swinging, depending on if you need to leave up counter spell mana. Your opponent would probably have left up a defender or two and would not expect a full attack, taking anywhere between 10-15 damage in one turn. Levitation is one of your deck's biggest bombs if you have creatures on the field.
It is a more midrange control card, so if you're an aggro build, you'd be better off with Vapor Snags and Into the Roils to get the damage through.
A) No, it shouldn't. U/B Illusions splashing for removal isn't bad, but it tends to be worse than U/B splashing for removal and Dark Tutelage. You'll be good on speed. Turns 1-3 you can safely drop 4 of your lands, turns 2-3 and onward you can generally drop 4 of them safely.
b) I haven't played with Turn to Frog myself, but I've heard it's a nifty combat trick in Mono U.
c.) Nope. Right now we do alright with good tempo, forcing the opponent to 1-1 into Topdeck mode (which we dominate), that's generally when Jace's Ingenuity shines.
It is a nice primer, isn't it?
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Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
If I have Grand Architect online and I'm dropping a Treasure Mage, I'd much rather tutor a Wurmcoil Engine for the "beat face, gain a ton of life" gameplan. Caged Sun does nothing in a vacuum. Wurmcoil can win games singlehandedly.
I'm not saying drop Wurmcoil Coil for Caged Sun. Architect is my main deck right now, so, I know how awesome Wurmcoil is.
However, there are occasions where Caged Sun would be more valuable than Wurmcoil Engine. If I have a bunch of blue creatures already on the field, then Caged Sun can be a stronger play than the Engine. Additionally, if I have a Wurmcoil Engine in hand, I can use my creatures in play to pop out a Caged Sun, then use my Islands to get Wurmcoil in. So, all of my blue creatures are being pumped and I've got a Wurmcoil Engine on the field.
Really, my ideal toolbox for this would be something like:
2 Caged Sun
1 Mindslaver
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
I just can't think of a time I would want Caged Sun over Wurmcoil or Mindslaver. If you have a bunch of Blue durdles out, including an Architect and a Treasure Mage, isn't it Win-More to Lord them even harder when you could be pulling Wurmcoil- which is resistant to Sweeps, protects you from Titans, and swings the game massively in your favor.
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Worth using as a 1 of, yeah. It seems like preference. It can hurt consistency, but not majorly.
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Think of it this way. They Doom Blade during your upkeep. You can end the turn and save the turn, or not end the card and lose the card. (Though it would be able to wipe the stack before the sac resolves).
Testing shows it's an undercosted Time Stop for them, at worst. At best, it's a dead draw no matter when you pull it.
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My main reason for suggesting it was that I'm considering this deck and I'd like to have a means aside from Lord of Illusions to be my only saving grace.
It would be very nice, but the illusions drawback is rarely troublesome. Sundial was playtested, and nobody whatsoever liked it. Maybe it has uses, but not here.
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Zelderex, I just want to first say, great thread. You don't usually see primer's made this well. It wasn't boring to read, it's useful information, and it's a lot of GOOD information on something new and under the radar.
So, i've been having great success with a Naya B-Pod deck, but ever since I sleeved up Illusions, i've been hooked. So i'm going to take apart the Naya deck and move towards a Birthing pod toolbox deck, since i still like b-pod a lot, but i'm going to focus on illusions for a bit.
Here is the deck i'm running currently minus sideboard. (I have a pretty decent idea for what I want the sideboard to be though.)
4x Tectonic Edge
4x Preordain
3x Spell Pierce
4x Mana Leak
2x Into the Roil
4x Lord of the Unreal
4x Phantasmal Image
3x Aether Figment
4x Adaptive Automaton
3x Grand Architect
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Wurmcoil Engine
Pretty straight forward aggro deck. Images are the freaking stone cold nuts in this deck. Metamorphs are sweet and can be powered out with Architect, as well as Wurmcoil, as soon as turn 3. Playing wurmcoil and copying it with image is sweet.
Not to mention copying their bombs...
Any suggestions with this deck? In playtesting it, it's working really well. The creatures synergies are almost nuts sometimes. Image copying Lord is ridiculous. 3/3 hexproof that pumps other illusions? Yes.
I'm looking into splashing in white for Venser, the Sojourner, Oblivion Ring, and Sun Titan.
Venser making all your creatures unblockable is basically just going to win you the game, I think it's worth testing, and i'll let everyone know how it goes!
Also bouncing Seas post board etc for more draw is nice.
Anyway, any feedback appreciated!
Currently Playing:
Brewing for Rotation
And some EDH