Sun titan doesn't fit well in a fast aggro deck (which is what the rest of this deck is), or any deck with 23 lands. Same goes for Venser. IMO better stucking to mono blue.
I really like this build. How consistent is one Venser? Does it need more?
Honestly, I don't have the Automaton yet on MTGO, waiting for that price to drop. Until then Aether Figment is in that slot, and he's pretty much the best thing you can top deck with a ton of mana on the board. RE:Venser, He's a "Win-More" card so one is all I need, usually games where he's important I resolve him late with counter backup and then reuse my Journey/Oblivion rings to give them back that early game threat I removed and take away their planeswalker/lord/combo piece, or I can Just -1 and win. I'm contemplating making him a 2-of, cutting 3 Automaton for 2 figments and another Venser.
Money spent on Venser is never money wasted. I was playing UW Venser Control for something like a half of year and to be honest at the beginning I wanted to play it on MTGO but Venser's price tag is a bit high. For cost of two Vensers I've got nearly whole Illusions deck.
Yea, he hurts my wallet. But like I said, I almost spent 40tix for a platset of Images, luckily I undercut people and only spent 18 for three, which would get me 4 now, but it's whatever.
I really don't think Venser is a good option here, or Sun Titan for that matter. Illusions are best at the beatface route, so keeping the game in the early stages is a strong option. The best way to do that is probably counterspells (which are dirt cheap). You don't need to buy Venser or use Sun Titan.
Yea, the problem with that is Venser makes your creatures irrelevant, mine may as well just pass through them like they're not even there. Also, bouncing a Journey/O-ring to repeatedly remove opposing Illusions(the enchantments stay on the board but their targets get sacrificed before being exiled) is pretty tech so in the headsup, U/W beats MonoU.
I think you are really underestimating both sun titan and counter spells. Sun titan single handedly invalidated lord of the unreal. A resolved sun titan means you win. The ONLY downside is I won't let you resolve a sun titan with my eleven counters.But really, sun titan is the main reason to splash white.
yea, but i'm running Gitaxian Probe. And I'm willing to wait until you tap out/only can counter one spell with the mana you have open to resolve my sun titan. And once I do, I can just combo off with the image and net 22 points of offense(two with hexproof) which makes Venser's -1 all the more delicious.
Sun titan doesn't fit well in a fast aggro deck (which is what the rest of this deck is), or any deck with 23 lands. Same goes for Venser. IMO better stucking to mono blue.
Care to provide evidence/explain your stance? He's essentially spending 5 mana for 3 turns of facebashing. Or the ability to recycle O-ring.
Honestly, I don't have the Automaton yet on MTGO, waiting for that price to drop. Until then Aether Figment is in that slot, and he's pretty much the best thing you can top deck with a ton of mana on the board. RE:Venser, He's a "Win-More" card so one is all I need, usually games where he's important I resolve him late with counter backup and then reuse my Journey/Oblivion rings to give them back that early game threat I removed and take away their planeswalker/lord/combo piece, or I can Just -1 and win. I'm contemplating making him a 2-of, cutting 3 Automaton for 2 figments and another Venser.
Yea, he hurts my wallet. But like I said, I almost spent 40tix for a platset of Images, luckily I undercut people and only spent 18 for three, which would get me 4 now, but it's whatever.
Yea, the problem with that is Venser makes your creatures irrelevant, mine may as well just pass through them like they're not even there. Also, bouncing a Journey/O-ring to repeatedly remove opposing Illusions(the enchantments stay on the board but their targets get sacrificed before being exiled) is pretty tech so in the headsup, U/W beats MonoU.
yea, but i'm running Gitaxian Probe. And I'm willing to wait until you tap out/only can counter one spell with the mana you have open to resolve my sun titan. And once I do, I can just combo off with the image and net 22 points of offense(two with hexproof) which makes Venser's -1 all the more delicious.
Care to provide evidence/explain your stance? He's essentially spending 5 mana for 3 turns of facebashing. Or the ability to recycle O-ring.
The counter thing was a joke. I should have made that clear. Sorry about that.
After playing a few games with automaton, it's clear that figment is better if you have less than 20 creatures. This is because the lord effect is more useful the more creatures you have on the board. If you don't have a lot of creatures, the unlockable will net more damage.
EDIT: the venser list looks solid. I'm curious how venser turns out. Can't wait to the results.
Sun titan doesn't fit well in a fast aggro deck (which is what the rest of this deck is), or any deck with 23 lands. Same goes for Venser. IMO better stucking to mono blue.
"Fast" isn't quite the word. At our fastest, Elves! outclocks us. We have to depend on fusing Control and Aggro. Gist of it:
Mono Blue lists go one of two ways. One is inspired by how Fish play out in Legacy-little beaters as your wincon in a control deck. The other is Grand Architect, which churns out little dudes to drop beefy wincons.
Blue Black is the fastest version we have. Dark Tutelage to crank CA, slap some swords onto an Unblockable Aether Figment, swing away.
Blue White slows the list down, relying on the insane power of Phantasmal Image+Sun Titan. It's a synergy powerful enough to justify play in specialized Caw-Blade lists.
Anyway- will update the Primer a bit.
EDIT: Alright, fixed some Coding errors, moved Aether Figment to the second section, changed the Adaptive Automaton entry slightly, changed the GA entry slightly.
Whipped something up, gonna test on MWS before I take it to MTGO. It runs roughly $45 in paper, so I should be good.
Probe is a massive boon in Fish. Even just Goldfishing; the use is there. It's very close to free, gives you info on how to play. It's hard to put into words how useful the play adjustment it allows is.
EDIT: Did the numbers. Nearly $60 in paper, but I got my Mana Leaks for free; so it's $45 with no SB. The SB I have for it costs a little over $60, which is still cheap.
I really like all the innovation going on around here... But let's look at illusions' best cards and where they truly shine.
First, Illusions is going to win via the attack phase, likely with several creatures. Any such deck often must fear several things... Removal, sweepers and big guys blocking. Now, let's look a the individual cards and see what we can do about that.
Phantasmal Bear - step aside Hound of Konda, one of the best one drops ever, there's a new sheriff in town and this one's not legendary. What makes these cards so damn good is how much bigger they are than anything else at their mana cost. You really need an aggressive start to make full use of them though. With cards this strong, you want to build around them. Phantasmal Bear is already screaming, "Go aggro! Go! Go!"
Lord of the Unreal - Lord of the Unreal's greatest power is his 2 cmc cost. He's a 2/2 for 2, respectable, and he gives the phenomenal boost of granting +1/+1 and Hexproof to all your illusions. This is an incredibly way to follow up a turn 1 Bear (who needs Kird Ape? I have a 3/3 hexproof attacking on turn 2). and being an agressively costed body in himself makes him wicked strong. He's shouting two things at once. First, "play aggressive!" and secondary, "back me up with something, I don't cost much mana so you'll be able to leave some open!" In short, the illusive man is screaming for Aggro-Control. And that meshes perfectly with the Phantasmal Bears.
Phantasmal Image - Hello sir, may I copy Lord of the Unreal? I'd really, really like to. It makes me a 3/3 hexproof for 1U who also gives all other illusions +1/+1. What's that Watchwolf? You're not as powerful a threat as me? Poor baby. And I cost very little for what I do, despite wanting to come down after a Lord of the Unreal (though I can copy other powerhouses in a pinch). So what am I screaming? Aggro Control!
Phantasmal Dragon - Hello, I'm your friendly local powerhourse. By day I'm a 5/5 flying for 2UU but once a lord of the unreal comes out to play, I'm a 6/6 flying Hexproof. Beat that with a stick. Said stick will break on my awesomeness. "PLAY AGGRESSIVE, RAWWWWRR!!!"
Adaptive Automaton - Yo there, mechanical lord in the house. I might not be at the power level of some of the other cards here, but I'll be the lord when no one else can do the job plus make things ridiculous if there's already a Lord of the Unreal in play. I just make everything better and I'm a cool card too. "Play Agressive, Clank!"
Okay, that's a whole lot of illusions shouting at us to play aggressive, with a few mentioning control backup. That means counterspells, which we certainly have access to. Illusions' best cards are at their best in an aggro deck and at their very top in an aggro-control deck. The cards themselves have spoken.
(Note: This does not take into account the Grand Architect strategies some people are chugging, but that feels much less consistent than what real aggro-control can do).
Now, we don't have to worry about spot removal so much - Lord of the Unreal shields us and the spot removal in standard is good enough to kill any of our guys even without the, "dies to being targeted" aspect. Well, except for the red damage flingers. Either way though, we have defenses against that.
Now sweepers. First, we'll be running lots of control - that means lots of counterspells. Summoner's Bane, Mana leak and more. The presence of counterspells can let us lay some cheap threats, then protect ourselves from sweepers (or any other big card you might want to hose). Pretty much takes care of that.
Now the big guys blocking. Aside from the fact that the dragon attacks in the air, and is thus hard to block in current standard, some bounce like Into the Roil should help swing things in our favor and Dismember will kill many things that need to be killed and keep them out of our way.
And sadly, Sun Titan is not a beatdown card. And this control deck wins with early threats. It doesn't need titans for win condtions.
The way I've looked at it, Titan is great as a Plan B. If they happen to kill a bunch of your beaters early, then by turn 6, the game's over if you're playing the mono-U aggro concept. By adding the white for the Titan, you allow turn 6 to be a turnaround win, instead of a guaranteed loss.
Ended up playing shrine rdw, goblins, vampires, and white weenies. Those are were the only aggro decks out of the 16 participants. I went 1-3 winning only against vampires by cloning and pumping nighthawks with counter magic protection.
The other matches were awful, except for shrine rdw, which was pretty easy, but play mistakes killed me. I had him below five both games, but he got me on, get this, valakut triggers. I can't counter lands people!
Goblins was just horrific.They just wouldn't stop. I ended up drawing 3 off goblin guide and ponder effects. Countered everything I could post board. This one is going to take practice.
White weenies went like it sounds.
Why couldn't I get matches with one of the valakut, twin, or caw matches. Those are the decks this was tuned for, the other eleven decks I didn't play.
/rant
Anyways, I'm going to add two automatons. Not enough creatures to block. Those would help. The counters felt right. Over all I feel the deck operated like it was supposed to. Definitely potential here.
And awesome work on the primer. Up to date, and entertaining.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
The way I've looked at it, Titan is great as a Plan B. If they happen to kill a bunch of your beaters early, then by turn 6, the game's over if you're playing the mono-U aggro concept. By adding the white for the Titan, you allow turn 6 to be a turnaround win, instead of a guaranteed loss.
The reason Illusions shouldn't run Sun Titan is similar to why Goblins shouldn't run Inferno Titan. It doesn't fit with the rest of the deck and even when it would finally get dropped, count it as too little, too late.
Ended up playing shrine rdw, goblins, vampires, and white weenies. Those are were the only aggro decks out of the 16 participants. I went 1-3 winning only against vampires by cloning and pumping nighthawks with counter magic protection.
The other matches were awful, except for shrine rdw, which was pretty easy, but play mistakes killed me. I had him below five both games, but he got me on, get this, valakut triggers. I can't counter lands people!
Goblins was just horrific.They just wouldn't stop. I ended up drawing 3 off goblin guide and ponder effects. Countered everything I could post board. This one is going to take practice.
White weenies went like it sounds.
Why couldn't I get matches with one of the valakut, twin, or caw matches. Those are the decks this was tuned for, the other eleven decks I didn't play.
/rant
Anyways, I'm going to add two automatons. Not enough creatures to block. Those would help. The counters felt right. Over all I feel the deck operated like it was supposed to. Definitely potential here.
And awesome work on the primer. Up to date, and entertaining.
Your list can certainly be strengthened against Aggro and similar. Aether Figment is nowhere near as strong as other options, and the dragon is a great blocker as well as an attacker. Having more than 4 lords in the deck is pretty key for most decks... And you're so heavy on Ponder/Probe that you've diluted your threat and counterspells more than a little bit. Ponder is best for digging for answers, but here you'll have to use it and the Probe aggressively just to find spells to play at all.
Your deck's a solid core, and it can likely get even better.
Your list can certainly be strengthened against Aggro and similar. Aether Figment is nowhere near as strong as other options, and the dragon is a great blocker as well as an attacker. Having more than 4 lords in the deck is pretty key for most decks... And you're so heavy on Ponder/Probe that you've diluted your threat and counterspells more than a little bit. Ponder is best for digging for answers, but here you'll have to use it and the Probe aggressively just to find spells to play at all.
Your deck's a solid core, and it can likely get even better.
The deck was tuned to face caw blade, valakut, and twin. There were literally only four aggro decks out of all 16 players, and I was placed against each if then. Statistically, I should have faced only one aggro deck. I want a higher creature density, because that seems to be the best way to deal with aggro without diluting my match ups with every other kind of deck. If will, that's life.
And probe is an auto four of. Really, it's never a bad card.
On dragon: if you are considering him, ask yourself "how fast to I NEED to finish this game. Dragon is a clock, and he should only be played if your list has no long game.
The reason Illusions shouldn't run Sun Titan is similar to why Goblins shouldn't run Inferno Titan. It doesn't fit with the rest of the deck and even when it would finally get dropped, count it as too little, too late.
Your list can certainly be strengthened against Aggro and similar. Aether Figment is nowhere near as strong as other options, and the dragon is a great blocker as well as an attacker. Having more than 4 lords in the deck is pretty key for most decks... And you're so heavy on Ponder/Probe that you've diluted your threat and counterspells more than a little bit. Ponder is best for digging for answers, but here you'll have to use it and the Probe aggressively just to find spells to play at all.
Your deck's a solid core, and it can likely get even better.
1.) An U/W Illusions list is much more control than Aggro. Efficient Beaters into a Sun Titan for game. It's less of a "Goblins" comparison, and more Merfolk. Sun Titan helps the long game, which some decks face. I'll be honest, it's a blast to play (Sun Titan+Image chain).
2.) 4/4 Ponder/Probe works neatly. Probe is never a dead draw (save maybe against non-shrine non-goblins RDW), Ponder is rarely a dead draw, and AEther Figment is a good deal different from the Dragon. With lords out, it can help you power out wins against a few decks that keep creatures on the board. But The Dragon is a nice blocker too. Thing is much more of a Win-Con than a powerhouse. Compare Koth of the Hammer to Hero of Oxid Ridge; ignoring the fact that the latter is almost strictly better. One of them can win games outright (Koth), the other helps you push through a stabilized board.
My only thoughts on the deck would be turning ITR and Dismember into a 2/2 split, removing Vapor Snag from the SB in favor of another 2/2 split on ITR/Dismember.
I don't think you can really consider him unless you're running Grand Architect, as having him out can cut down the cost considerably. Otherwise it's a 4 cost Phantasmal Image that doesn't give you a hexproof lord since Phyrexian metamorph doesn't become an illusion when he copies Lord of the Unreal.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
So should I cut him for some Into the Roils or Vapor Snags?
Here are just more thoughts, i'm not an expert but here we go:
Run Grand Architect: Even if you don't plan on using his artifact ability much, he still boosts your illusions, plus he can make adaptive automaton and molten-tail masticore cheaper as well. Into the Roil/Vapor snag are good pieces, I think run them 2/2, with two more of each in your sideboard since one is good for aggro decks while the other is better suited for slower control decks
You also don't need 4 dragons, he's a 2 of only if you're going to run him. I also think Adaptive is a 3 of at best, I think he's good but not 4 of good. Just my 2 cents, hope they help and that I won't be contradicted within moments of posted by some of the veteran posters ^^
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
The deck was tuned to face caw blade, valakut, and twin. There were literally only four aggro decks out of all 16 players, and I was placed against each if then. Statistically, I should have faced only one aggro deck. I want a higher creature density, because that seems to be the best way to deal with aggro without diluting my match ups with every other kind of deck. If will, that's life.
Actually, you can strengthen the deck against all matchups at once. Aether Figment isn't optimal against any decks at all, for example.
And probe is an auto four of. Really, it's never a bad card.
Not exactly true. Many top decks run blue without running the Probe. If you aren't running the propper cards in your deck to take advantage of the probe, or its gobbling up too many slots that you'd want filled with other things then it often makes sense to run someting else. It's by no means an auto-include.
On dragon: if you are considering him, ask yourself "how fast to I NEED to finish this game. Dragon is a clock, and he should only be played if your list has no long game.
1) Any illusions long game will be inferior to other long game options run by other decks, especially if your goal is to beat control decks. You are playing the game they're best at. Control decks do best in the long game. They actually get more powerful the longer the game goes.
2) 5/5 fliers are good against cawblade (they don't run Sword of Body and Mind so you can block their sworded birds) as well as aggro decks (big blocker and can race most anything they have). You do need to finish the game against Valakut fast (dragon is still good) too. Plus, the 6/6 hexproof version once the lord is out is just nuts against any deck.
1.) An U/W Illusions list is much more control than Aggro. Efficient Beaters into a Sun Titan for game. It's less of a "Goblins" comparison, and more Merfolk. Sun Titan helps the long game, which some decks face. I'll be honest, it's a blast to play (Sun Titan+Image chain).
Trying to go control with illusions is fundamentally doing something that the tribe isn't best at - for the reasons listed above. It's less than optimal strategy and isn't as good as control strategies that don't use illusions. Illusions really want to be aggro-control, as explained in my breakdown post. Efficient beaters have never been part of a real control strategy, only the aggressive aggro-control variants (that do not run huge recursive finishers like sun titans). While it might be fun to chain Titans into Images, it's probably not the most powerful route for the deck. But hey, stranger things have happened.
2.) 4/4 Ponder/Probe works neatly. Probe is never a dead draw (save maybe against non-shrine non-goblins RDW), Ponder is rarely a dead draw, and AEther Figment is a good deal different from the Dragon. With lords out, it can help you power out wins against a few decks that keep creatures on the board. But The Dragon is a nice blocker too. Thing is much more of a Win-Con than a powerhouse. Compare Koth of the Hammer to Hero of Oxid Ridge; ignoring the fact that the latter is almost strictly better. One of them can win games outright (Koth), the other helps you push through a stabilized board.
I've already touched on Probe above and comparing Koth to Hero Ridge is... Odd. The Hero is actually a powerful threat in itself whereas the image is not. The image is a truly terrible card (2 mana 1/1 unblockable is certainly not impressive and if you want to go 5 mana, just go with Venser or something similar to make all your guys unblockable - if this is so important.) The dragon is also rather hard to block in standard too you know, and can stabilize against opponents' agression.
By turn 13 you would be long dead with this deck because it doesn't have nearly enough control elements. This deck needs to win by around turn 7-8 or it stumbles and collapses.
6 mana cards of *ANY* sort have no place in a 23 land deck without ramp\ways to cheat it out, period.
Over all the deck preformed very well. I beat Vampires twice, mono black control, Bant POD, Pyromancers Ascention, Hawkblade, and a mirror without the artifacts. The MVP of for my deck was by far Mindslaver. One game I cast two Dismembers of my oppents, on his creatures, successfully wipeing his board and dealing 8 damage. The tempo of the deck is amazing. Best of all the only cards the rotate after Innistrad are preordains, tech edge and spreading seas.
Over all the deck preformed very well. I beat Vampires twice, mono black control, Bant POD, Pyromancers Ascention, Hawkblade, and a mirror without the artifacts. The MVP of for my deck was by far Mindslaver. One game I cast two Dismembers of my oppents, on his creatures, successfully wipeing his board and dealing 8 damage. The tempo of the deck is amazing. Best of all the only cards the rotate after Innistrad are preordains, tech edge and spreading seas.
I wast thinking about adding Mindslaver in my list! how did it work for you? I think it seems pretty solid!
I wast thinking about adding Mindslaver in my list! how did it work for you? I think it seems pretty solid!
Like I said, it was by far my MVP card that night. When I used it vs POD, I saced his Norn to it and searched for nothing. Then I attacked with his other creatures, and blocked to wipe his board. Its great agains vamps beacuse they use sac outlets, really gets passed thoes pesky highborns. Most games I dropped and used it on turns four or five. I do board it out against Hawkward though because I dont think it's as devistating to that deck.
Like I said, it was by far my MVP card that night. When I used it vs POD, I saced his Norn to it and searched for nothing. Then I attacked with his other creatures, and blocked to wipe his board. Its great agains vamps beacuse they use sac outlets, really gets passed thoes pesky highborns. Most games I dropped and used it on turns four or five. I do board it out against Hawkward though because I dont think it's as devistating to that deck.
May I ask how did you board against your matchups?
Hey! Me again. Last decklist I posted up was lackluster and not all the it could be, but with some serious playtesting and some results, i've hit a list that is doing extremely well in tourney (FNM, I know it's not high class tourney but still gotta start somewhere) and feels great.
This is the list i've been testing and having a successful blast with:
I can't tell you how much more i'm loving the white in there than mono blue.
Early game I use image to copy a bear, automaton, lord, really any of our beaters, leave up some counter/bounce mana, and beat face. When your board dies, you drop a sun titan to chain images til the last gets back a lord and you have like 4 titans, 1-2 of which are 7/7 (possibly hexproof)'s. This play happened SURPRISINGLY often. Turns out people like to kill creatures that are hurting them, and images are no different. I know somewhere above someone said something about 23 lands and never getting to titan mana without somehow cheating him in, but I personally have had no problem with this in my testing. Maybe i'm just lucky? I never seem to get screwed in this deck. Always have UU when I need it, usually able to cast my titans. (Can't say always on that because I don't think there are too many decks that can say "ALWAYS ABLE" to cast titans.)
Sideboarding was REALLY easy. I never had a problem with boarding it seemed and each opponent was a pretty easy sideboarding choice. (I currently run Naya b-pod and that thing is a ***** to sideboard with.)
One thing I will note that isn't so fantastic is Aether Figment. Has been underwhelming every time, and I almost never kick it because I want to keep other mana up for removal of whatever sort. So, i'm going to replace them. I'm thinking either a 3rd Journey to Nowhere and 4th Adaptive Automaton (More creatures is always nice), or adding 2x Dismember to the mainboard with the remaining 2 in the side giving me a 15th slot there for something, OR adding 2x Spell Pierce (More counter is never a bad thing, and spell pierce is a great counter.)
^Thoughts on that?
Journey's are house. Big creatures are problem for aggro, especially wurmcoils. Well, send them to nowhere and beat face
Venser is GREAT. Whether you are bouncing rings, lands for mana to have open, journeys, or seas post board for value, it's nice. But i've been finding him more used as a "Your creatures are unblockable" on a stick. They have walls? A board? Nah. Swing through for mega damage with your team.
All in all, super satisfied with how this deck is going. Illusions are a super fun deck and I feel my matchups haven't been so hard. Some are downhill, sure. Game 1 against RDW can be tough, and goblins. But out go o-ring for Purges and out go mana leaks for Flashfreezes and suddenly the match is pretty easy.
Thanks for this primer being so attractive again, Zeld. If it wasn't, I probably wouldn't have read on to then create the most fun standard deck i've played in awhile.
I have been looking into making something like this but I really don't have anything new to add to the list. Mine is very linear, but I was wondering if anyone had worked on anything like this. So here is my list:
Like I said very plain compared to most of the lists. I'm testing it today so I haven't gotten much expereince so I wanted opinions on anything I'm missing or could change.
I normally put 24 lands in an average deck, and this one has 22 because of such a low curve. Could it go lower? 20?
I have been looking into making something like this but I really don't have anything new to add to the list. Mine is very linear, but I was wondering if anyone had worked on anything like this. So here is my list:
Like I said very plain compared to most of the lists. I'm testing it today so I haven't gotten much expereince so I wanted opinions on anything I'm missing or could change.
I normally put 24 lands in an average deck, and this one has 22 because of such a low curve. Could it go lower? 20?
This is one of the stronger and more synergistic of the lists I've seen. Nice job. I'd probably play Dispatch over Vapor Snag, and skip Halimar Depths for extra islands and a full set of Tectonic Edge to make things faster, more versatile and give you extra tools to lock your opponent into the early game. Other than that, you look pretty solid. You're running all the most powerful illusions in a needle sharp strategy focused on ending the game on your turns and controlling the opponent out of the mid game - ending it before the late ever comes. Running Deprive in the main over Spell Pierce would probably be good too of course (hard counters are more valuable for an illusion deck, though the pierce would probably be great in the sideboard) but you've got a really strong base to build from.
Honestly, I don't have the Automaton yet on MTGO, waiting for that price to drop. Until then Aether Figment is in that slot, and he's pretty much the best thing you can top deck with a ton of mana on the board. RE:Venser, He's a "Win-More" card so one is all I need, usually games where he's important I resolve him late with counter backup and then reuse my Journey/Oblivion rings to give them back that early game threat I removed and take away their planeswalker/lord/combo piece, or I can Just -1 and win. I'm contemplating making him a 2-of, cutting 3 Automaton for 2 figments and another Venser.
Yea, he hurts my wallet. But like I said, I almost spent 40tix for a platset of Images, luckily I undercut people and only spent 18 for three, which would get me 4 now, but it's whatever.
Yea, the problem with that is Venser makes your creatures irrelevant, mine may as well just pass through them like they're not even there. Also, bouncing a Journey/O-ring to repeatedly remove opposing Illusions(the enchantments stay on the board but their targets get sacrificed before being exiled) is pretty tech so in the headsup, U/W beats MonoU.
yea, but i'm running Gitaxian Probe. And I'm willing to wait until you tap out/only can counter one spell with the mana you have open to resolve my sun titan. And once I do, I can just combo off with the image and net 22 points of offense(two with hexproof) which makes Venser's -1 all the more delicious.
Care to provide evidence/explain your stance? He's essentially spending 5 mana for 3 turns of facebashing. Or the ability to recycle O-ring.
Thanks to syndarion of Aeternal Studios for the awesome Sig.
Standard: MWLC All-InFect Illusion Control(MTGO)
EDH(MODO): :symg::symu::symb:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb: 6-2-0 in 4player
The counter thing was a joke. I should have made that clear. Sorry about that.
After playing a few games with automaton, it's clear that figment is better if you have less than 20 creatures. This is because the lord effect is more useful the more creatures you have on the board. If you don't have a lot of creatures, the unlockable will net more damage.
EDIT: the venser list looks solid. I'm curious how venser turns out. Can't wait to the results.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
"Fast" isn't quite the word. At our fastest, Elves! outclocks us. We have to depend on fusing Control and Aggro. Gist of it:
Mono Blue lists go one of two ways. One is inspired by how Fish play out in Legacy-little beaters as your wincon in a control deck. The other is Grand Architect, which churns out little dudes to drop beefy wincons.
Blue Black is the fastest version we have. Dark Tutelage to crank CA, slap some swords onto an Unblockable Aether Figment, swing away.
Blue White slows the list down, relying on the insane power of Phantasmal Image+Sun Titan. It's a synergy powerful enough to justify play in specialized Caw-Blade lists.
Anyway- will update the Primer a bit.
EDIT: Alright, fixed some Coding errors, moved Aether Figment to the second section, changed the Adaptive Automaton entry slightly, changed the GA entry slightly.
Whipped something up, gonna test on MWS before I take it to MTGO. It runs roughly $45 in paper, so I should be good.
4 Lord of the Unreal
4 Phantasmal Bear
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Phatnasmal Dragon
//Counters: 10
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
2 Deprive
2 Summoner's Bane
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
//Removal: 6
3 Dismember
3 Into the Roil
4 Halimar Depths
19 Island
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EDIT: Did the numbers. Nearly $60 in paper, but I got my Mana Leaks for free; so it's $45 with no SB. The SB I have for it costs a little over $60, which is still cheap.
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First, Illusions is going to win via the attack phase, likely with several creatures. Any such deck often must fear several things... Removal, sweepers and big guys blocking. Now, let's look a the individual cards and see what we can do about that.
Phantasmal Bear - step aside Hound of Konda, one of the best one drops ever, there's a new sheriff in town and this one's not legendary. What makes these cards so damn good is how much bigger they are than anything else at their mana cost. You really need an aggressive start to make full use of them though. With cards this strong, you want to build around them. Phantasmal Bear is already screaming, "Go aggro! Go! Go!"
Lord of the Unreal - Lord of the Unreal's greatest power is his 2 cmc cost. He's a 2/2 for 2, respectable, and he gives the phenomenal boost of granting +1/+1 and Hexproof to all your illusions. This is an incredibly way to follow up a turn 1 Bear (who needs Kird Ape? I have a 3/3 hexproof attacking on turn 2). and being an agressively costed body in himself makes him wicked strong. He's shouting two things at once. First, "play aggressive!" and secondary, "back me up with something, I don't cost much mana so you'll be able to leave some open!" In short, the illusive man is screaming for Aggro-Control. And that meshes perfectly with the Phantasmal Bears.
Phantasmal Image - Hello sir, may I copy Lord of the Unreal? I'd really, really like to. It makes me a 3/3 hexproof for 1U who also gives all other illusions +1/+1. What's that Watchwolf? You're not as powerful a threat as me? Poor baby. And I cost very little for what I do, despite wanting to come down after a Lord of the Unreal (though I can copy other powerhouses in a pinch). So what am I screaming? Aggro Control!
Phantasmal Dragon - Hello, I'm your friendly local powerhourse. By day I'm a 5/5 flying for 2UU but once a lord of the unreal comes out to play, I'm a 6/6 flying Hexproof. Beat that with a stick. Said stick will break on my awesomeness. "PLAY AGGRESSIVE, RAWWWWRR!!!"
Adaptive Automaton - Yo there, mechanical lord in the house. I might not be at the power level of some of the other cards here, but I'll be the lord when no one else can do the job plus make things ridiculous if there's already a Lord of the Unreal in play. I just make everything better and I'm a cool card too. "Play Agressive, Clank!"
Okay, that's a whole lot of illusions shouting at us to play aggressive, with a few mentioning control backup. That means counterspells, which we certainly have access to. Illusions' best cards are at their best in an aggro deck and at their very top in an aggro-control deck. The cards themselves have spoken.
(Note: This does not take into account the Grand Architect strategies some people are chugging, but that feels much less consistent than what real aggro-control can do).
Now, we don't have to worry about spot removal so much - Lord of the Unreal shields us and the spot removal in standard is good enough to kill any of our guys even without the, "dies to being targeted" aspect. Well, except for the red damage flingers. Either way though, we have defenses against that.
Now sweepers. First, we'll be running lots of control - that means lots of counterspells. Summoner's Bane, Mana leak and more. The presence of counterspells can let us lay some cheap threats, then protect ourselves from sweepers (or any other big card you might want to hose). Pretty much takes care of that.
Now the big guys blocking. Aside from the fact that the dragon attacks in the air, and is thus hard to block in current standard, some bounce like Into the Roil should help swing things in our favor and Dismember will kill many things that need to be killed and keep them out of our way.
And sadly, Sun Titan is not a beatdown card. And this control deck wins with early threats. It doesn't need titans for win condtions.
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Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
4 phantasmal bear
4 phantasmal image
4 aether figment
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 into the roil
4 spell pierce
3 deprive
// 5 fetch lands
10 island
3 tectonic edge
3 halimar depths
4 mental misstep
4 vapor snag
4 steel sabotage
3 flashfreeze
Ended up playing shrine rdw, goblins, vampires, and white weenies. Those are were the only aggro decks out of the 16 participants. I went 1-3 winning only against vampires by cloning and pumping nighthawks with counter magic protection.
The other matches were awful, except for shrine rdw, which was pretty easy, but play mistakes killed me. I had him below five both games, but he got me on, get this, valakut triggers. I can't counter lands people!
Goblins was just horrific.They just wouldn't stop. I ended up drawing 3 off goblin guide and ponder effects. Countered everything I could post board. This one is going to take practice.
White weenies went like it sounds.
Why couldn't I get matches with one of the valakut, twin, or caw matches. Those are the decks this was tuned for, the other eleven decks I didn't play.
/rant
Anyways, I'm going to add two automatons. Not enough creatures to block. Those would help. The counters felt right. Over all I feel the deck operated like it was supposed to. Definitely potential here.
And awesome work on the primer. Up to date, and entertaining.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Goblins...oh man that matchup is pain. We have no sweepers in Mono-U, which can be tough for a meta that increasingly has aggro decks.
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The reason Illusions shouldn't run Sun Titan is similar to why Goblins shouldn't run Inferno Titan. It doesn't fit with the rest of the deck and even when it would finally get dropped, count it as too little, too late.
Your list can certainly be strengthened against Aggro and similar. Aether Figment is nowhere near as strong as other options, and the dragon is a great blocker as well as an attacker. Having more than 4 lords in the deck is pretty key for most decks... And you're so heavy on Ponder/Probe that you've diluted your threat and counterspells more than a little bit. Ponder is best for digging for answers, but here you'll have to use it and the Probe aggressively just to find spells to play at all.
Your deck's a solid core, and it can likely get even better.
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The deck was tuned to face caw blade, valakut, and twin. There were literally only four aggro decks out of all 16 players, and I was placed against each if then. Statistically, I should have faced only one aggro deck. I want a higher creature density, because that seems to be the best way to deal with aggro without diluting my match ups with every other kind of deck. If will, that's life.
And probe is an auto four of. Really, it's never a bad card.
On dragon: if you are considering him, ask yourself "how fast to I NEED to finish this game. Dragon is a clock, and he should only be played if your list has no long game.
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1.) An U/W Illusions list is much more control than Aggro. Efficient Beaters into a Sun Titan for game. It's less of a "Goblins" comparison, and more Merfolk. Sun Titan helps the long game, which some decks face. I'll be honest, it's a blast to play (Sun Titan+Image chain).
2.) 4/4 Ponder/Probe works neatly. Probe is never a dead draw (save maybe against non-shrine non-goblins RDW), Ponder is rarely a dead draw, and AEther Figment is a good deal different from the Dragon. With lords out, it can help you power out wins against a few decks that keep creatures on the board. But The Dragon is a nice blocker too. Thing is much more of a Win-Con than a powerhouse. Compare Koth of the Hammer to Hero of Oxid Ridge; ignoring the fact that the latter is almost strictly better. One of them can win games outright (Koth), the other helps you push through a stabilized board.
My only thoughts on the deck would be turning ITR and Dismember into a 2/2 split, removing Vapor Snag from the SB in favor of another 2/2 split on ITR/Dismember.
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4x Phantasmal Bear
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Lord of the Unreal
4x Adaptive Automaton
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Phantasmal Dragon
1x Molten-Tail Masticore
4x Ponder
2x Preordain
COUNTERS
3x Spell Pierce
3x Deprive
2x Mana Leak
17x Island
4x Halimar Depths
I don't think you can really consider him unless you're running Grand Architect, as having him out can cut down the cost considerably. Otherwise it's a 4 cost Phantasmal Image that doesn't give you a hexproof lord since Phyrexian metamorph doesn't become an illusion when he copies Lord of the Unreal.
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Record: 22-3-0
Here are just more thoughts, i'm not an expert but here we go:
Run Grand Architect: Even if you don't plan on using his artifact ability much, he still boosts your illusions, plus he can make adaptive automaton and molten-tail masticore cheaper as well. Into the Roil/Vapor snag are good pieces, I think run them 2/2, with two more of each in your sideboard since one is good for aggro decks while the other is better suited for slower control decks
You also don't need 4 dragons, he's a 2 of only if you're going to run him. I also think Adaptive is a 3 of at best, I think he's good but not 4 of good. Just my 2 cents, hope they help and that I won't be contradicted within moments of posted by some of the veteran posters ^^
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Record: 22-3-0
Actually, you can strengthen the deck against all matchups at once. Aether Figment isn't optimal against any decks at all, for example.
Not exactly true. Many top decks run blue without running the Probe. If you aren't running the propper cards in your deck to take advantage of the probe, or its gobbling up too many slots that you'd want filled with other things then it often makes sense to run someting else. It's by no means an auto-include.
1) Any illusions long game will be inferior to other long game options run by other decks, especially if your goal is to beat control decks. You are playing the game they're best at. Control decks do best in the long game. They actually get more powerful the longer the game goes.
2) 5/5 fliers are good against cawblade (they don't run Sword of Body and Mind so you can block their sworded birds) as well as aggro decks (big blocker and can race most anything they have). You do need to finish the game against Valakut fast (dragon is still good) too. Plus, the 6/6 hexproof version once the lord is out is just nuts against any deck.
Trying to go control with illusions is fundamentally doing something that the tribe isn't best at - for the reasons listed above. It's less than optimal strategy and isn't as good as control strategies that don't use illusions. Illusions really want to be aggro-control, as explained in my breakdown post. Efficient beaters have never been part of a real control strategy, only the aggressive aggro-control variants (that do not run huge recursive finishers like sun titans). While it might be fun to chain Titans into Images, it's probably not the most powerful route for the deck. But hey, stranger things have happened.
I've already touched on Probe above and comparing Koth to Hero Ridge is... Odd. The Hero is actually a powerful threat in itself whereas the image is not. The image is a truly terrible card (2 mana 1/1 unblockable is certainly not impressive and if you want to go 5 mana, just go with Venser or something similar to make all your guys unblockable - if this is so important.) The dragon is also rather hard to block in standard too you know, and can stabilize against opponents' agression.
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Titan is 6 mana, and there is no way you are getting "3 turns of facebashing" with him. With 23 lands in the deck and no ramp or ways to cheat titan out early, the expected turn to reach 6 mana is turn 10 (see link: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asd0tidUmXGrdERlc3AxemFITWhFT0V4SHNHOUk3X2c&hl=en_US#gid=0 ). To attack with him 3 times would mean you are on turn 13.
By turn 13 you would be long dead with this deck because it doesn't have nearly enough control elements. This deck needs to win by around turn 7-8 or it stumbles and collapses.
6 mana cards of *ANY* sort have no place in a 23 land deck without ramp\ways to cheat it out, period.
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Lord of the Unreal
4x Grand Architect
2x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite" target="blank">Steel Hellkite
4x Manaleak
4x Preordain
3x Ponder
1x Blue suns Zeineth
3x Spell Pierce
2x Vapor Snag
2x Into the Roil
2x Unified Will
3x Tectonic Edge
16x Island
2x Dismember
2x Act of Agression
4x Spreading Seas
2x Flash Freeze
2x Negate
2x Tumble Magnet
1x Contagion Clasp
Over all the deck preformed very well. I beat Vampires twice, mono black control, Bant POD, Pyromancers Ascention, Hawkblade, and a mirror without the artifacts. The MVP of for my deck was by far Mindslaver. One game I cast two Dismembers of my oppents, on his creatures, successfully wipeing his board and dealing 8 damage. The tempo of the deck is amazing. Best of all the only cards the rotate after Innistrad are preordains, tech edge and spreading seas.
I wast thinking about adding Mindslaver in my list! how did it work for you? I think it seems pretty solid!
Like I said, it was by far my MVP card that night. When I used it vs POD, I saced his Norn to it and searched for nothing. Then I attacked with his other creatures, and blocked to wipe his board. Its great agains vamps beacuse they use sac outlets, really gets passed thoes pesky highborns. Most games I dropped and used it on turns four or five. I do board it out against Hawkward though because I dont think it's as devistating to that deck.
May I ask how did you board against your matchups?
This is the list i've been testing and having a successful blast with:
6x Island
4x Plains
3x Celestial Collonade
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Tectonic Edge
Creatures:
4x Phantasmal Bear
4x Lord of the Unreal
3x Adaptive Automaton
4x Phantasmal Image
2x Aether Figment
2x Sun Titan
2x Journey to Nowhere
4x Ponder
4x Mana Leak
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Into the Roil
2x Venser, the Sojourner
3x Spreading Seas
3x Flashfreeze
3x Celestial Purge
3x Steel Sabotage
3x Dismember
I can't tell you how much more i'm loving the white in there than mono blue.
Early game I use image to copy a bear, automaton, lord, really any of our beaters, leave up some counter/bounce mana, and beat face. When your board dies, you drop a sun titan to chain images til the last gets back a lord and you have like 4 titans, 1-2 of which are 7/7 (possibly hexproof)'s. This play happened SURPRISINGLY often. Turns out people like to kill creatures that are hurting them, and images are no different. I know somewhere above someone said something about 23 lands and never getting to titan mana without somehow cheating him in, but I personally have had no problem with this in my testing. Maybe i'm just lucky? I never seem to get screwed in this deck. Always have UU when I need it, usually able to cast my titans. (Can't say always on that because I don't think there are too many decks that can say "ALWAYS ABLE" to cast titans.)
Sideboarding was REALLY easy. I never had a problem with boarding it seemed and each opponent was a pretty easy sideboarding choice. (I currently run Naya b-pod and that thing is a ***** to sideboard with.)
One thing I will note that isn't so fantastic is Aether Figment. Has been underwhelming every time, and I almost never kick it because I want to keep other mana up for removal of whatever sort. So, i'm going to replace them. I'm thinking either a 3rd Journey to Nowhere and 4th Adaptive Automaton (More creatures is always nice), or adding 2x Dismember to the mainboard with the remaining 2 in the side giving me a 15th slot there for something, OR adding 2x Spell Pierce (More counter is never a bad thing, and spell pierce is a great counter.)
^Thoughts on that?
Journey's are house. Big creatures are problem for aggro, especially wurmcoils. Well, send them to nowhere and beat face
Venser is GREAT. Whether you are bouncing rings, lands for mana to have open, journeys, or seas post board for value, it's nice. But i've been finding him more used as a "Your creatures are unblockable" on a stick. They have walls? A board? Nah. Swing through for mega damage with your team.
All in all, super satisfied with how this deck is going. Illusions are a super fun deck and I feel my matchups haven't been so hard. Some are downhill, sure. Game 1 against RDW can be tough, and goblins. But out go o-ring for Purges and out go mana leaks for Flashfreezes and suddenly the match is pretty easy.
Thanks for this primer being so attractive again, Zeld. If it wasn't, I probably wouldn't have read on to then create the most fun standard deck i've played in awhile.
Currently Playing:
Brewing for Rotation
And some EDH
4 phantasmal bear
4 phantasmal dragon
4 phantasmal image
4 lord of the unreal
4 adaptive automaton
Other spells:
3 mana leak
3 spell pierce
4 ponder
4 vapor snag
4 into the roil
16 islands
4 hallmark depths
2 tectonic edge
2 tectonic edge
4 summoner's bane
4 Deprive
5 other
Like I said very plain compared to most of the lists. I'm testing it today so I haven't gotten much expereince so I wanted opinions on anything I'm missing or could change.
I normally put 24 lands in an average deck, and this one has 22 because of such a low curve. Could it go lower? 20?
Edit:
4 phantasmal bear
4 phantasmal dragon
4 phantasmal image
4 lord of the unreal
4 adaptive automaton
Other spells:
3 mana leak
3 Deprive
4 ponder
4 vapor snag
4 into the roil
18 islands
4 tectonic edge
4 summoner's bane
1 Deprive
3 Spell Pierce
7 other
Thanks a million to SB4 and High~Light Studios.
Also, ich habe gehoert du magst mudkipen.
This is one of the stronger and more synergistic of the lists I've seen. Nice job. I'd probably play Dispatch over Vapor Snag, and skip Halimar Depths for extra islands and a full set of Tectonic Edge to make things faster, more versatile and give you extra tools to lock your opponent into the early game. Other than that, you look pretty solid. You're running all the most powerful illusions in a needle sharp strategy focused on ending the game on your turns and controlling the opponent out of the mid game - ending it before the late ever comes. Running Deprive in the main over Spell Pierce would probably be good too of course (hard counters are more valuable for an illusion deck, though the pierce would probably be great in the sideboard) but you've got a really strong base to build from.
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