I like the idea people have been suggesting about sun titan but does frost titan have any uses in this build as either main deck or a sideboard option? Or does it just not fit the build at all?
I like the idea people have been suggesting about sun titan but does frost titan have any uses in this build as either main deck or a sideboard option? Or does it just not fit the build at all?
frost titan could work in the deck because it doe freeze down a creature but personally i am not a fan of it
This deck works pretty much works. You got 3 wincons, illusion flood (this is pretty unreliable, but needs to be dealt with by your opponent.) Wurmcoil engine flood with grand architect, can be cast easely turn 3/4.
Basically, forget mindslayer, contagion engine, myr battlesphere and whatnot they are not really worth it. Each time you see your opponent tabbed out and think about casting something else than a wurmcoil engine, think again and cast one instead, unless that else is cloning it.
Save your grand architect for when you have 2 other blue creatures out and a wurmcoil in hand.
Ponder>Preordain is safe to assume, unless your testing has shown otherwise. It's generally speaking, stronger- and the list that wants Preordain instead is the exception; rather than the rule.
Congrats on the Building on a Budget article. What are everyone's thoughts on the Aggro-control style JVL used?
Only thing the article really informs us of is how useful Summoner's Bane is. Some testing we've done said it was nice, but didn't know exactly how nice. will know to include.
Personally, I would rather have a Gitaxian Probe or two in some of those Dragon Slots- but we may consider cutting our Ponder/Preordain effects.
EDIT: I apologize to everyone whom I've told to cut Dragon. I'm still kinda on the fence, I wouldn't run it as more than a 3 of.
Only thing the article really informs us of is how useful Summoner's Bane is. Some testing we've done said it was nice, but didn't know exactly how nice. will know to include.
Personally, I would rather have a Gitaxian Probe or two in some of those Dragon Slots- but we may consider cutting our Ponder/Preordain effects.
EDIT: I apologize to everyone whom I've told to cut Dragon. I'm still kinda on the fence, I wouldn't run it as more than a 3 of.
It might seem odd he eschewed the Ponder/Preordain gears considering the relative scarcity of the illusions - but the balance between his threats and countermagic (not to mention that mana early on is extremely tight) likely warrant the shift.
It's also worth noting that this deck, like all aggro-control decks, rewards skillful play. You need to know just how much threat to commit to the board while setting up for a counterspell.
It might seem odd he eschewed the Ponder/Preordain gears considering the relative scarcity of the illusions - but the balance between his threats and countermagic (not to mention that mana early on is extremely tight) likely warrant the shift.
It's also worth noting that this deck, like all aggro-control decks, rewards skillful play. You need to know just how much threat to commit to the board while setting up for a counterspell.
Yeah, his curve was very smooth, though I wonder why he would use that many 4 drops, but relatively few cards at 1 and 3. I'll be updating the Primer with these details.
Yeah, his curve was very smooth, though I wonder why he would use that many 4 drops, but relatively few cards at 1 and 3. I'll be updating the Primer with these details.
Possibly because he's enamored of the dragon, though it is certainly something to be enamored of. A 6/6 with flying and Hexproof is impressive. Especially for 4 mana.
As for the lack of 1 drops and 3 drops - JVL's list is dead set on playing the top illusion cards and protecting them with countermagic. It doesn't seem like he has much interest in the Treasure/Trinket mage plan (disclaimer, Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards). This forces playing around existing considerations.
Possibly because he's enamored of the dragon, though it is certainly something to be enamored of. A 6/6 with flying and Hexproof is impressive. Especially for 4 mana.
As for the lack of 1 drops and 3 drops - JVL's list is dead set on playing the top illusion cards and protecting them with countermagic. It doesn't seem like he has much interest in the Treasure/Trinket mage plan (disclaimer, Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards). This forces playing around existing considerations.
It was a different approach to the deck, to say the least. Definitely reminds us of the Fish approach, with the addition of Dragon. I suppose it does give Fish more killing power- but one thing to remember is that neither of the opponents he played against had removal, counters, sweepers, hand disruption, or any control elements.
Edit: Fixed my deck, because trying to do three or four things at once never works.
Now, this deck is scary to look at. the first few turns make for an interesting set up, depending upon your draw you either go on offense with counterspells/removal to keep your opponents from setting up any sort of board state(keep in mind, if an illusion gets targeted it dies so counterspells are wasted saving them.) or you set up a defensive board state, where your opponent gets comfortable, then you land Venser and swing for a win. Sun Titan is for those drawn out games where your opponent will quickly run out of gas, meanwhile you're getting crazy CA.
It was a different approach to the deck, to say the least. Definitely reminds us of the Fish approach, with the addition of Dragon. I suppose it does give Fish more killing power- but one thing to remember is that neither of the opponents he played against had removal, counters, sweepers, hand disruption, or any control elements.
*nods* strong points - but with the amount of countermagic in the deck it seems like handling boardsweepers would hardly be an issue. His list runs more countermagic than most control decks. Black disruption could be far more irritating of course.
Similar style to SorinsVenegeance, running a U/W GA mid-range build. I've fished up a few hands, it works pretty well but it hurts when you draw multiple treasure mages without a GA or where you already drew an Engine or Hellkite. My only white is Sun Titan and O-ring, so I kept my Plains number lowish. Tech plays include, turn 6 Sun Titan, return Treasure Mage, draw up Hellkite, tap three blues to play Hellkite. Also, the probe is pretty much always useful, if only for the card draw and knowing what your opponent is planning to do/what they're playing(you can do it on their turn if they choose to play first, the two life is negligable against most matchups). I really want to run Surgical Extraction somehow.
Hmm... I could be missing something but it really looks like this falls apart at the seams. The illusions are brilliant for sleek aggro, but tying them to huge 6cmc spells is very unstable - especially considering they don't work with the illusion theme. I understand Grand Architect is behind it, but he's a very fragile link between two very different gameplans.
Only thing the article really informs us of is how useful Summoner's Bane is. Some testing we've done said it was nice, but didn't know exactly how nice. will know to include.
Personally, I would rather have a Gitaxian Probe or two in some of those Dragon Slots- but we may consider cutting our Ponder/Preordain effects.
EDIT: I apologize to everyone whom I've told to cut Dragon. I'm still kinda on the fence, I wouldn't run it as more than a 3 of.
Don't apologize. The dragon is still quite bad. The only time it's good is when we're already winning. He was making a tribal list, so it's a natural inclusion. The deck rewards good play, so it didn't hurt his list very much.
I would say his list more resembles big blue than fish. I personally find it less than optional, but lord of the unreal is a force to be reckoned with. The meta is also unprepared for illusions. All this leads to above expected results.
I put 4 steel sabotage in my sideboard. It hit's enough of the meta to be amazing. Definitely a top tier counterspell. It's my second favorite sideboard counter, right behind mental misstep.
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I just can't think of a time I would want Caged Sun over Wurmcoil or Mindslaver. If you have a bunch of Blue durdles out, including an Architect and a Treasure Mage, isn't it Win-More to Lord them even harder when you could be pulling Wurmcoil- which is resistant to Sweeps, protects you from Titans, and swings the game massively in your favor.
Not if dropping Caged Sun onto the field wins you the game the turn you drop it due to the lord boost, which has happened to me quite a few times.
After reading the article, I'm back on the fence as well about the dragon. Most lists are better off without him IMO, but there have been some times in my U/B list where I almost wished I had the dragon, just in case there was a DOJ, I would have something in my hand that could essentially win the game by itself. That is the only positive that I see about it, though.
Spell Pierce is much better. For example - RDW with Shrines and Koth. Are you going to use SS? You know that resolved Shrine is really, really bad thing to deal with. And you want some fast counterspell (especially when your opponent plays first) - on the other hand Steel Sabotage doesn't hit Koth. Go for the Spell Pierce.
I run 4 spell pierce main. I run 4 steel sabotage side. Against decks with high artifact density I side out something I don't like for it. It also hits artifact creatures. It's a great and versatile card that shouldn't be shot down so quickly.
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I am totally sold on this list now. For those not running the full set of Architects, he leads to the most busted starts you can get in this deck. Turn 2 guy, turn 3 architect + metamorph//Adaptive or it you had a turn 1 bear, both then just sit on counter-magic till they die. Also I tried out running the big top end with wurmcoil, but they are just horrendous in your opening hand and are bad against alot of the decks in the meta right now. I do want more cards against aggro, but that is what a sideboard is for. The best you can do is to overload on lord effects and clog up the board - that is where cards like Aether Figment and Tar-pit shine. Having the unblockable threat is so huge even if you don't have swords. Speaking of which I have dropped from the main for now. It is not that I was unimpressed with them, just that room is so incredibly tight in this deck and I keep wanting 4 preordains to help find sideboard cards and more lords. It helps the clone guys in the main when you have a greater chance of finding something you want to copy.
Black splash is largely just for the disfigures. Mono red has both spikeshot elder and grim lavamancer which are a house against us and they can do an incredibly good job of blanking every clone creature in our deck due to the amount of spot removal in their deck. The other match up it is in for is ELVES! due to quick archdruid hands they can get and to kill ezuri (outside of cloning it, which is a very cute trick you need to remember if they drop it a turn before they try to kill you) and fauna shaman before they take over the game. This is still a very touch match up and honestly I wish I could provide some sick tech but outside of something like linvala or active guul draz assassin (yeah I went there), I cannot see this match-up getting any better. You also get some mileage out of disfigure in the tempered steel match up. They can have a lot of annoying guys like Porcelain Legionnaire and steel overseer that you need a cheap answer to. The other splash card is Memoricide which is really just the nail in the coffin in the valakut matchup. This match-up is already in your favor, but they have a higher chance of just blowing you out than the other way around. Taking out titans will make the match up basically UN-lose-able regardless of how many god draws they can get. I will be the first to admit that this slot is completely unnecessary, I just happen to have alot of valakut players at locals and 8 card outers happen more often than I approve.
As far as typical side-boarding, it is pretty simple. Mana leak is always cut before spell pierce in the aggro matchups due to curve restrictions etc... and you can pretty much wing it from there. Just remember that against tempered steel and mono red you need to be bringing in Into the Roil. If the red player is playing the match-up correctly he will be bringing in shrines to keep a clock while he controls the board. Against Caw-blade I don't bring in gfft as all it can kill is a hero or sun titan, and those guys are already answered with a clone as they are almost always better on our side of the table. I like into the roils as a tempo card and it answers gideon fairly well.
It is more important to have counterspells in this deck as opposed to discard as want the mana out of it more than anything. Sure discard is sweet as you can play it in an open spot on the curve and get key cards, but this deck is much more interested in them tapping their mana for those spells. Duress and mana leak are one-for-one removal unless you have an aggressive deck where the mana investment for the opponent almost makes it into a time walk.
Some considerations for those not sold on black is Linvalla. The other cards like O-ring can be replaced as long as you know the situations that you are wanting o-ring (i.e. Gideon, their O-ring, IDK so I just want a generic answer etc..) but there is really no other card against Mono Red or Elves that I would come close to changing colors for.
That is my 2 cents on this archtype. For those who want to take out memoricide, I would replace them with slots for whatever you are expecting.
And here is a White version of the deck I just started working on.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
Wow, this thing blew up real fast with a lot of decks. Maybe Summoner's Bane sideboard since we're not likely to play it main against fast decks. For getting in, why can't we use cards like turn to frog? That'd let you press the attack with anything, even Lords.
Wow, this thing blew up real fast with a lot of decks. Maybe Summoner's Bane sideboard since we're not likely to play it main against fast decks. For getting in, why can't we use cards like turn to frog? That'd let you press the attack with anything, even Lords.
Deck did definitely take off. And why not? We've got some articles, we're cheap, our matchups are decent, and the deck's a blast to play. It's aggro-control without being degenerate, and it's tribal without being mindless.
I prefer Bane in the SB for my lists, if at all, but it's a massive Tempo gain.
Turn To Frog is showing up more and more often. It's got some nice use as a VERY nifty combat trick. Being able to kill a fatty with a Bear is just fabulous. A lot of nice plays to be made.
EDIT: Linvala, hmm...what does it shut down though? Elves...and...uh...erm...well... I would rather have Torpor Orb, especially since it's basically free with GA. Against RDW, we're pretty close to screwed without Mental Misstep, but Hero of Oxid Ridge is back in favor- and we need a way to deal with it. We have Counters obviously, but that may not be enough. Thoughts?
I must agree that Wurmcoil Engine on the first 7 is hard to handle. Its better to draw it of course, and Halimar Depths and Ponder helps a lot to position it. This situation also takes me to consider Phirexian Methamorph once again. Its "Fighting Fire with Fire" for any Creature or Artifact tactics the opponent have.
But, when the opponent's tactics is based on numerous cheap creatures or Enchantments, instants and Sorceries, an excellent clone for 3cmc+2 Live doesn't really help... ok, make it 3:symu: or (Architect+Island+Island … and, if you have only 3 Lands, your Mana Leak is screwed).
I totally quit on Steel Hellkite for now. I love the creature but, not being hasty, trampler or unblockable leaves it misplaced on the deck and the Treasure Mage is not that good since it adds nothing to Illusion plan and takes precious slots from essential instants and sorceries spells.
Recently, I've been trying Gitaxian Probe for some sneaking and more card draw.
Mostly, I cast it paying 2 Life and its worth the sacrifice! Extra card and opponent’s hand reveal is advantage. But the life lost is significant specially when using Mental Misstep (not to mention Dismember).
So, “Lifelink” comes to mind and, here I go again with Wurmcoil Engine...
How can I call it horrendous?
Having Gitaxian Probe in the MB makes SBing easier against RDW (since you have an obvious card to replace with Mental Misstep). The thing is a house in Fish, considering the ONLY cost is a negligible 2 life- and it provides critical information about how to play out the next few turns.
But I definitely see Wurmcoil helping you overcome the lifeloss, and it's easily the best card to tutor up.
I tried Adaptive Automaton but didn't like that it does nothing for Lord of the Unreal, Grand Architect and Wurmcoil Engine. Phyrexian Metamorph is so much better here, it can copy creatures and artifacts, especially good vs Swords.
I have seen some decent Phantasmal Illusion creature/Quicksilver Amulet/Architect decks showing up though.
This deck dies to Pyromancer Ascension 1st game badly.
I tried Adaptive Automaton but didn't like that it does nothing for Lord of the Unreal, Grand Architect and Wurmcoil Engine. Phyrexian Metamorph is so much better here, it can copy creatures and artifacts, especially good vs Swords.
I have seen some decent Phantasmal Illusion creature/Quicksilver Amulet/Architect decks showing up though.
This deck dies to Pyromancer Ascension 1st game badly.
1.) Come on, 258 posts- but no [DECK] tags?
2.) 2 Halimar depths, and only 21 lands? I would bump Halimars up to 4.
3.) 4 Deprive hurts tempo majorly. I would drop that to 2 Deprives.
4.) I would go -3 Preordain +2 Ponder, it's usually more consistent (and synergizes with Halimar Depths)
5.) To patch up the drop in Counters, I would go +3/4 Mana Leak.
6.) What use are you getting out of MM in the MB?
And like a dozen other things. Adaptive Automaton is nice to smooth your curve, but not mandatory.
Mental Missteps, stops turn one Inquisition/Duress. Turn 1 Goblin, early mana producers for pod decks and is even good vs Tempered Steel decks. Why wouldn't you play it main?
Deprive does not hurt your tempo when you only need 4 lands to successfully run this deck. Deprive is a hard counter that even makes a good late game play.. There are 14 1 mana spells, 8 2 mana spells and an Architect in play makes for a possible Turn 3 Metamorph or Wurmcoil engine.
Mental Missteps, stops turn one Inquisition/Duress. Turn 1 Goblin, early mana producers for pod decks and is even good vs Tempered Steel decks. Why wouldn't you play it main?
Deprive does not hurt your tempo when you only need 4 lands to successfully run this deck. Deprive is a hard counter that even makes a good late game play.. There are 14 1 mana spells, 8 2 mana spells and an Architect in play makes for a possible Turn 3 Metamorph or Wurmcoil engine.
Well, for one thing; it doesn't TOUCH Caw-Blade. Barely fazes Pod decks, Splinter Twin can shrug it off, so on. I don't want it mainboard.
Now imagine that the only counterspell you draw is Deprive, which makes sense considering it's your most common counter. So, let's say you have to cast it once. Tempo is tied. TWICE, and your opponent is up two lands- though they've had two spells gone; tempo is still recoverable. Three times, and your tempo is shot to hell. All four times, and your tempo is non existent.
Deprive is great. But a 4-of means you want to see it in your opening hand, and again after that. If you want to see it a couple times, it's a 3 of. If you want to see it, but only once if at all- 2 of. I would rather have a Soft counter that risks allowing a turn 9 Titan than a Hard counter that risks me struggling to cast a turn 6 Dragon.
And as I recall- the list didn't use Wurmcoil Engine (a debatable choice).
Coming from successful folk and tempered steel lists the aggro plan is always on my mind, but in the PTQ Im playing this weekend I've decided TS won't get there. I always seem to get second place and that just isnt good enough. So I'm playing Illusions! Pretty straigt forward list although I did use the 4 Amulet/4 Emrakul plan in testing and I never could seem to get the combo out even with dig till like turn 8+.
Also total noob question but how does ponder interact with Halimar Depths and Fetches? Do we look at the cards then shuffle in response to look at 3 more? An interesting card I found was Wind Zendikon which is creat for stoping pesky caw-blade decks or twice tec-edging Collonade or Valakut lands, not to mention works so well with Architect.
Anyways... hows the list?
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frost titan could work in the deck because it doe freeze down a creature but personally i am not a fan of it
Ponder>Preordain is safe to assume, unless your testing has shown otherwise. It's generally speaking, stronger- and the list that wants Preordain instead is the exception; rather than the rule.
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Only thing the article really informs us of is how useful Summoner's Bane is. Some testing we've done said it was nice, but didn't know exactly how nice. will know to include.
Personally, I would rather have a Gitaxian Probe or two in some of those Dragon Slots- but we may consider cutting our Ponder/Preordain effects.
EDIT: I apologize to everyone whom I've told to cut Dragon. I'm still kinda on the fence, I wouldn't run it as more than a 3 of.
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It might seem odd he eschewed the Ponder/Preordain gears considering the relative scarcity of the illusions - but the balance between his threats and countermagic (not to mention that mana early on is extremely tight) likely warrant the shift.
It's also worth noting that this deck, like all aggro-control decks, rewards skillful play. You need to know just how much threat to commit to the board while setting up for a counterspell.
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Yeah, his curve was very smooth, though I wonder why he would use that many 4 drops, but relatively few cards at 1 and 3. I'll be updating the Primer with these details.
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Possibly because he's enamored of the dragon, though it is certainly something to be enamored of. A 6/6 with flying and Hexproof is impressive. Especially for 4 mana.
As for the lack of 1 drops and 3 drops - JVL's list is dead set on playing the top illusion cards and protecting them with countermagic. It doesn't seem like he has much interest in the Treasure/Trinket mage plan (disclaimer, Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards). This forces playing around existing considerations.
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It was a different approach to the deck, to say the least. Definitely reminds us of the Fish approach, with the addition of Dragon. I suppose it does give Fish more killing power- but one thing to remember is that neither of the opponents he played against had removal, counters, sweepers, hand disruption, or any control elements.
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4x Seachrome Coast
4x Glacial Fortress
8x Island
4x Plains
3x Tectonic Edge
Spells(18)
4x Ponder
3x Mana Leak
2x Journey to Nowhere
3x Into The Roil
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Phantasmal Bear
4x Lord of the Unreal
3x Phantasmal Image
3x Adaptive Automaton
2x Phantasmal Dragon
2x Sun Titan
Planeswalker
1x Venser, the Sojourner
3x Dismember
3x Mental Misstep
3x FlashFreeze
3x Celestial Purge
3x Steel Sabotage
Edit: Fixed my deck, because trying to do three or four things at once never works.
Now, this deck is scary to look at. the first few turns make for an interesting set up, depending upon your draw you either go on offense with counterspells/removal to keep your opponents from setting up any sort of board state(keep in mind, if an illusion gets targeted it dies so counterspells are wasted saving them.) or you set up a defensive board state, where your opponent gets comfortable, then you land Venser and swing for a win. Sun Titan is for those drawn out games where your opponent will quickly run out of gas, meanwhile you're getting crazy CA.
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Standard: MWLC All-InFect Illusion Control(MTGO)
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*nods* strong points - but with the amount of countermagic in the deck it seems like handling boardsweepers would hardly be an issue. His list runs more countermagic than most control decks. Black disruption could be far more irritating of course.
Hmm... I could be missing something but it really looks like this falls apart at the seams. The illusions are brilliant for sleek aggro, but tying them to huge 6cmc spells is very unstable - especially considering they don't work with the illusion theme. I understand Grand Architect is behind it, but he's a very fragile link between two very different gameplans.
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Don't apologize. The dragon is still quite bad. The only time it's good is when we're already winning. He was making a tribal list, so it's a natural inclusion. The deck rewards good play, so it didn't hurt his list very much.
I would say his list more resembles big blue than fish. I personally find it less than optional, but lord of the unreal is a force to be reckoned with. The meta is also unprepared for illusions. All this leads to above expected results.
I put 4 steel sabotage in my sideboard. It hit's enough of the meta to be amazing. Definitely a top tier counterspell. It's my second favorite sideboard counter, right behind mental misstep.
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Not if dropping Caged Sun onto the field wins you the game the turn you drop it due to the lord boost, which has happened to me quite a few times.
Check out my expected lands table at:
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Might as well use an Overrun effect in that case.
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I run 4 spell pierce main. I run 4 steel sabotage side. Against decks with high artifact density I side out something I don't like for it. It also hits artifact creatures. It's a great and versatile card that shouldn't be shot down so quickly.
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4 Phantasmal Image
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Grand Architect
4 Lord of the Unreal
3 Adaptive Automaton
2 AEther Figment
2 Mana Leak
4 Spell Pierce
4 Preordain
12 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Memoricide
2 Go for the Throat
2 Dark Tutelage
2 Deprive
2 Into the Roil
4 Disfigure
I am totally sold on this list now. For those not running the full set of Architects, he leads to the most busted starts you can get in this deck. Turn 2 guy, turn 3 architect + metamorph//Adaptive or it you had a turn 1 bear, both then just sit on counter-magic till they die. Also I tried out running the big top end with wurmcoil, but they are just horrendous in your opening hand and are bad against alot of the decks in the meta right now. I do want more cards against aggro, but that is what a sideboard is for. The best you can do is to overload on lord effects and clog up the board - that is where cards like Aether Figment and Tar-pit shine. Having the unblockable threat is so huge even if you don't have swords. Speaking of which I have dropped from the main for now. It is not that I was unimpressed with them, just that room is so incredibly tight in this deck and I keep wanting 4 preordains to help find sideboard cards and more lords. It helps the clone guys in the main when you have a greater chance of finding something you want to copy.
Black splash is largely just for the disfigures. Mono red has both spikeshot elder and grim lavamancer which are a house against us and they can do an incredibly good job of blanking every clone creature in our deck due to the amount of spot removal in their deck. The other match up it is in for is ELVES! due to quick archdruid hands they can get and to kill ezuri (outside of cloning it, which is a very cute trick you need to remember if they drop it a turn before they try to kill you) and fauna shaman before they take over the game. This is still a very touch match up and honestly I wish I could provide some sick tech but outside of something like linvala or active guul draz assassin (yeah I went there), I cannot see this match-up getting any better. You also get some mileage out of disfigure in the tempered steel match up. They can have a lot of annoying guys like Porcelain Legionnaire and steel overseer that you need a cheap answer to. The other splash card is Memoricide which is really just the nail in the coffin in the valakut matchup. This match-up is already in your favor, but they have a higher chance of just blowing you out than the other way around. Taking out titans will make the match up basically UN-lose-able regardless of how many god draws they can get. I will be the first to admit that this slot is completely unnecessary, I just happen to have alot of valakut players at locals and 8 card outers happen more often than I approve.
As far as typical side-boarding, it is pretty simple. Mana leak is always cut before spell pierce in the aggro matchups due to curve restrictions etc... and you can pretty much wing it from there. Just remember that against tempered steel and mono red you need to be bringing in Into the Roil. If the red player is playing the match-up correctly he will be bringing in shrines to keep a clock while he controls the board. Against Caw-blade I don't bring in gfft as all it can kill is a hero or sun titan, and those guys are already answered with a clone as they are almost always better on our side of the table. I like into the roils as a tempo card and it answers gideon fairly well.
It is more important to have counterspells in this deck as opposed to discard as want the mana out of it more than anything. Sure discard is sweet as you can play it in an open spot on the curve and get key cards, but this deck is much more interested in them tapping their mana for those spells. Duress and mana leak are one-for-one removal unless you have an aggressive deck where the mana investment for the opponent almost makes it into a time walk.
Some considerations for those not sold on black is Linvalla. The other cards like O-ring can be replaced as long as you know the situations that you are wanting o-ring (i.e. Gideon, their O-ring, IDK so I just want a generic answer etc..) but there is really no other card against Mono Red or Elves that I would come close to changing colors for.
That is my 2 cents on this archtype. For those who want to take out memoricide, I would replace them with slots for whatever you are expecting.
And here is a White version of the deck I just started working on.
4 Phantasmal Image
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Grand Architect
4 Lord of the Unreal
3 Adaptive Automaton
3 AEther Figment
4 Spell Pierce
4 Preordain
2 Mana Leak
12 Island
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Deprive
2 Into the Roil
3 Oust
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Revoke Existence
1 Stave Off
Deck did definitely take off. And why not? We've got some articles, we're cheap, our matchups are decent, and the deck's a blast to play. It's aggro-control without being degenerate, and it's tribal without being mindless.
I prefer Bane in the SB for my lists, if at all, but it's a massive Tempo gain.
Turn To Frog is showing up more and more often. It's got some nice use as a VERY nifty combat trick. Being able to kill a fatty with a Bear is just fabulous. A lot of nice plays to be made.
EDIT: Linvala, hmm...what does it shut down though? Elves...and...uh...erm...well... I would rather have Torpor Orb, especially since it's basically free with GA. Against RDW, we're pretty close to screwed without Mental Misstep, but Hero of Oxid Ridge is back in favor- and we need a way to deal with it. We have Counters obviously, but that may not be enough. Thoughts?
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Having Gitaxian Probe in the MB makes SBing easier against RDW (since you have an obvious card to replace with Mental Misstep). The thing is a house in Fish, considering the ONLY cost is a negligible 2 life- and it provides critical information about how to play out the next few turns.
But I definitely see Wurmcoil helping you overcome the lifeloss, and it's easily the best card to tutor up.
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Creatures
4 Grand Architect
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Lord of the Unreal
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Phantasmal Dragon
3 Wurmcoil Engine
Spells
4 Deprive
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce
3 Preordain
2 Ponder
Lands
2 Halimar Depths
19 Islands
I tried Adaptive Automaton but didn't like that it does nothing for Lord of the Unreal, Grand Architect and Wurmcoil Engine. Phyrexian Metamorph is so much better here, it can copy creatures and artifacts, especially good vs Swords.
I have seen some decent Phantasmal Illusion creature/Quicksilver Amulet/Architect decks showing up though.
This deck dies to Pyromancer Ascension 1st game badly.
1.) Come on, 258 posts- but no [DECK] tags?
2.) 2 Halimar depths, and only 21 lands? I would bump Halimars up to 4.
3.) 4 Deprive hurts tempo majorly. I would drop that to 2 Deprives.
4.) I would go -3 Preordain +2 Ponder, it's usually more consistent (and synergizes with Halimar Depths)
5.) To patch up the drop in Counters, I would go +3/4 Mana Leak.
6.) What use are you getting out of MM in the MB?
And like a dozen other things. Adaptive Automaton is nice to smooth your curve, but not mandatory.
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Deprive does not hurt your tempo when you only need 4 lands to successfully run this deck. Deprive is a hard counter that even makes a good late game play.. There are 14 1 mana spells, 8 2 mana spells and an Architect in play makes for a possible Turn 3 Metamorph or Wurmcoil engine.
Well, for one thing; it doesn't TOUCH Caw-Blade. Barely fazes Pod decks, Splinter Twin can shrug it off, so on. I don't want it mainboard.
Now imagine that the only counterspell you draw is Deprive, which makes sense considering it's your most common counter. So, let's say you have to cast it once. Tempo is tied. TWICE, and your opponent is up two lands- though they've had two spells gone; tempo is still recoverable. Three times, and your tempo is shot to hell. All four times, and your tempo is non existent.
Deprive is great. But a 4-of means you want to see it in your opening hand, and again after that. If you want to see it a couple times, it's a 3 of. If you want to see it, but only once if at all- 2 of. I would rather have a Soft counter that risks allowing a turn 9 Titan than a Hard counter that risks me struggling to cast a turn 6 Dragon.
And as I recall- the list didn't use Wurmcoil Engine (a debatable choice).
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Also total noob question but how does ponder interact with Halimar Depths and Fetches? Do we look at the cards then shuffle in response to look at 3 more? An interesting card I found was Wind Zendikon which is creat for stoping pesky caw-blade decks or twice tec-edging Collonade or Valakut lands, not to mention works so well with Architect.
Anyways... hows the list?
4 Phantasmal Image
2 Phantasmal Dragon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Grand Architect
4 Lord of the Unreal
3 Adaptive Automaton
4 Wind Zendikon (for tempo)
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
11 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Halimar Depths
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spreading Seas
2 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
2 Into the Roil
2 Flashfreeze
2 Deprive
1 Ratchet Bomb