I'm always a big proponent of aggressive midrange strategies. Whenever a format hits a critical mass of good 2-4 drops I am big on it whether that is via Aggro-Control or straight up midrange. I think GW may have just hit that threshold, and I think with Jace's Banning a deck that can swing for lethal turn 4-5 and have the ability to withstand control has a decent shot. This started as a Fauna Shaman list but Shaman was unspectacular especially when pretty much I never wanted to discard anything(except Vengevine, and to some degree Hawks) because every threat was potent. More often than not it would just end up attacking for the win. So what I'm presenting is pretty much a GW good stuff kind of list, that can either swarm out or play conservative good threat after the next.
This uses Swords but it is not like the Hexproof lists. Those usually trade better creatures for ones that dodge removal, yet still have very little evasion. The philosophy for this list is much like Mythic. All the best threats at the casting cost.
Basically this deck packs 15 creatures that can swing for 8 damage alone (Bladehold + 1 the mana accelerator) by the end of turn 4 with a mana accelerator. The idea is that any 2 can do lethal damage by turn 5. Obviously this is an ideal situation, but there are so many aggressive lines of play in the deck including Birds, and Cobra's both supporting turn 3 swing with Swords. And Hawks + Vengevine + Equipment supporting into the late game.
The classic weak matchup for a list like this would be Valakut, but this deck has a fast enough clock especially with the afterboard Act of Aggression's that it's Valakut matchup isn't that bad. Twin is kept in check by Spellskite, Linvala, Celestial Purge, Nature's Claim, Dismember, and if you really want it Act of Aggression. Aggro is kept in check with the Spellskites, and Batterskull along with Swords. And as you can imagine Control has issues with Vengevine and a multitude of cheap threats that don't require overextending (15 creatures that take down a Wall of Omens without equipment, and 8 that fly over).
After more testing:
Vengevine and artifact/auras are not where I want to be given all the splash hate. I think it's time to just play the biggest and best threats and force opponents to deal, Mythic style.
Birthing Pod version of the Mythic Idea (Current List I Play):
I decided to try to up some of the value. The deck needed it since it couldn't consistently win fast enough. This version still puts on a lot of early pressure but sort of like JtMS applies it in different avenues.
Thanks.. I was actually a little surprised that the list has been working so well. I don't think it's really playable til M12 comes out and we get Oblivion Ring and Skinshifter, so it must just come down to redundancy.
Looking at the list doesn't look like much of anything, but once you figure out some of the ideal goldfishes (Turn 4 wins, even through landed Titans), and some semi ideal goldfishes (Turn 5 wins), you start seeing that it's a lot like playing a deck where you can have 15(well 16 technically) copies of your best card. Accelerator into any 2 of the beaters, or 1 and a Sword etc.. can pull out very quick wins. It's surprising how many ways the deck can pull this out. The semi-ideal goldfishes are actually pretty regular. Removal is a pain, but everything is pretty efficiently costed and Vengevine is good against non-white removal, Mirran Crusader is good against non-red removal, Hero of Bladehold is good against non-black removal, and Skin Shifter is good against non-black, non-white removal (but it only costs 2). Permission can slow you down a bit too, but this deck puts on enough early pressure and can get ahead in mana and even cast 2 spells a turn. Nothing in the deck costs more than 4 cmc.
Given the Phyrexian Spells and Oblivion Ring it's actually quite easy to sideboard since the answers are generic enough and don't require splashing Black or Red. I think UR Twin might still be the hardest matchup, but it is by no means terrible, you just need to make sure you get the anti Twin cards in hand, or that they are a bit unlucky. Valakut can be close too, but I think it is pretty close for everyone (except UB Control maybe). The list might be a bit weak to other Lotus Cobra decks (with only 2 Dismember) but Act of Aggression should be used here, steal whatever they cast hopefully with a Hero of Bladehold strike enough to take down the game. Still room to move numbers around if that isn't reasonable. Either way it's nice to see such a simple concept work pretty well.
I think Twin, Valakut are the worse matchups but they are probably 50/50 at worse postboard. Pre board, I think Valakut might be like 45-55. And Twin like 40-60. The list seems to kill control, and be good against other aggro (especially post board). The proactive plan is strong enough that it does pretty well against rogue lists and well against random non-interactive aggro decks (like Tempered Steel/Elves) on the play since it can push a clock very similar to theirs. Not folding to DoJ though is a pretty nice treat.
I was testing a deck similar to this about 2 months ago, it was fully in bant colors (for Jace, obvs, and Mana Leak too) but was deliberately not using SFM because this was before New Phyrexia and there was no turn 3 Batterskull. my perception was that SFM for SoFaF was too slow for a deck that wanted to swing for the fences by turn 5. The deck also used Baneslayer Angel because there was no such thing as Dismember at the time. here's a link to that list, if you're interested.
I also kinda like beatdown decks. they look like midrange decks because of the mana costs but thats deceptive, really these are pretty close to pure aggro thats using a very green sort of plan of mana accelerators into bigger guys instead of the red or white sort of plan of playing efficient 1 and 2 drops.
so its base green beatdown and thats what i like. i think there's some good ways to do this for sure. what i'd like to get is a deck that has some of the play of Mythic Bant which could either come out explosively with nuts draws or switch to a midgame card advantage plan with planeswalkers. i think the same thing can be achieved again here. Garruk, Primal Hunter seems like a wonderful curve topper.
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I don't like Skinshifter in this type of deck because it interferes so much with your curving out plays. He effectively Stone Rains you if you want to attack every turn. don't like. I'm also pushing towards a planeswalker based midgame rather than a Vengevine plan. I think Garruk and Gideon are just more powerful in general, even if slightly slower. They can come out as early as turn 3 here (off a Cobra + fetchland start, or a Joraga Treespeaker start) and they both just completely dominate the board. I'm using Rampant Growth as a secondary accelerator in addition to all the creature mana because there will be some awkward starts where you have a tapped dualland or something and can't make a good play on turn 2. this should help guarantee that you get to make a good play on turn 3 no matter what though.
haven't playtested, just theory crafted so maybe its not the right approach. i do like the idea of ramping into Gideon and Garruk though. they're both so powerful and also ridiculously powerful together. i feel like this deck should be fast enough to race Valakut and solid enough to compete with control. matchups that might (in theory) be weak would be against Red (they burn your mana guys) and Splinter Twin (not much disruption in this deck.
I like it.. the biggest thing is Gideon Jura and Garruk are houses against Control and Aggro but they sort of suck against Valakut and Twin. I am probably a bit too narrow on the aggressive side but I still do quite well against control, postboard aggro gets a lot better but it isn't even that bad game 1. I was thinking of putting Garruk in the board. Gideon Jura and Garruk are actually really really similar cards in action. But they hedge matchups I don't need much hedging in. Spellskite in the board sort of does double duty of Twin and Red Aggro, and running the Swords help there too. I haven't felt the need to board anything against Control except maybe a couple draw spells.. so I see Garruk's power there. Maybe those Batterskulls should be Garruk's.. not sure which is better in the mirror. Probably Garruk.
But the ability to race Valakut is pretty important and is the reason for most of my decisions. Even if we match their ramp, their game plan is better. So there isn't much point in doing so. We don't have enough disruption either. Racing them like an aggro deck is the best I've come up with, hence why I like so many cheap aggressive threats. The list isn't unlike the aggressive tendencies of Boros. It's not Steppe Lynx and Plated Geopedes, but it is other cheap creatures smashing in for 4 as soon as possible.
The reason I like Skinshifter is largely the 4/4 Trample mode. The trample + Swords is awesome.. I think the fact they can use removal in response kind of sucks and no one cares about the 1/1.. but that is different with a 1/1 carrying equipment. It is definitely the weaker of the beaters, but this deck does a lot of beating.. even the Lotus Cobras. I've played Fauna Shaman who does the same to you Stone Rain wise. Since I keep the curve low it is as good of use of extra lands as anything. The key thing is you get to a threshold of these creature threats that is more than opponents can handle.
I've been running something similar since the bannings. I was running GW with blades/mystic/squawk + BOP, mirran crusader, thrun and garruk.
I'm running basically the same thing now, but with ancient stirrings to replace mystic. Ancient stirrings is actually a fairly good tutor in the deck and is maybe something you should consider too. You can drop some of the equips and maybe a land, as it will usually find you an equip, or prevent mana/color screw.
Against valakut I lose unless I can get an equiped mirran crusader by turn 4 when the titan hits, which is not easy. How are you doing so well (45/55) against vala preboard?
I don't run hero of blade hold, though she does fit and is very good, but I don't see her improving my vala matchup, the biggest weakness so far. Even if she swings turn 4 into an empty board before the titan, it won't be lethal and she will be burned out when he lands. This is why thrun is in my 4 slot, he does a much better job stalling vala, and can steal wins if I get a batterskull on him by turn 5 or 6 just before I get burned out.
I've been running something similar since the bannings. I was running GW with blades/mystic/squawk + BOP, mirran crusader, thrun and garruk.
I'm running basically the same thing now, but with ancient stirrings to replace mystic. Ancient stirrings is actually a fairly good tutor in the deck and is maybe something you should consider too. You can drop some of the equips and maybe a land, as it will usually find you an equip, or prevent mana/color screw.
Against valakut I lose unless I can get an equiped mirran crusader by turn 4 when the titan hits, which is not easy. How are you doing so well (45/55) against vala preboard?
I don't run hero of blade hold, though she does fit and is very good, but I don't see her improving my vala matchup, the biggest weakness so far. Even if she swings turn 4 into an empty board before the titan, it won't be lethal and she will be burned out when he lands. This is why thrun is in my 4 slot, he does a much better job stalling vala, and can steal wins if I get a batterskull on him by turn 5 or 6 just before I get burned out.
As I started reading your post, the first thing I was going to ask was if you ran Hero of Bladehold. #1 card in the deck against Valakut by a longshot. Way more consistent than getting Crusader+Equipment (especially once Pyroclasm comes in, or the decks that run Bolt). I see you address that in the end. That is the biggest difference.
She is worse against Dismember Valakut, but in general as threats go she is good. And Dismember Valakut usually means that you have the benefit of them starting at a lower life total. Usually from my experience, they don't burn you out the turn they land Primeval. It's when they make the first attack with Primeval. Generally speaking they need to have 8 lands in play before any burning happens (2 Forests, 4 Mountains, and probably the 2 Valakuts they searched up when they played their Primeval).
So usually the problem is if they land Primeval Titan before you land Bladehold. This can happen when they are on draw with a good hand, and especially if they play Cobra and you don't have the dismember. If she lands on the board before Primeval Titan you have probably won the game. Even if you don't get to attack into a clear board, assuming they don't main deck pyroclasm (a lot list have cut down md removal) if you drop a Vengevine, or previously dropped a Mirran Crusader, if you have got a Swing in with a Cobra or Mirran Crusader (or Skinshifter) you can attack after they land the Primeval and still do like 17 points of damage even if they block. The big addition Skinshifter adds is adding yet another castable 4/4. This one is much more splashable than Leatherback Baloth.
I mean openers like this aren't unheard of:
T1: Birds
T2: Cobra, Skinshifter (or Fetch Mirran Crusader)
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 6
T4: Vengevine, Swing for 21(or 22)
or
T1: Birds
T2: Mirran Crusader
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 4
T4: Contested War Zone, Swing for 20
Even T5 is fast enough sometimes:
T1: Tap land
T2: Lotus Cobra
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 2 (perhaps, fetch dismember, opposing Cobra, or Overgrown Battlement)
T4: Vengevine Swing for 15
T5: Win
These are just Bladehold Variations, when you add equipment variations like:
T1: Birds
T2: Sword
T3: Equip Birds (Either probably about 8 damage off War and Peace or Wolf and Mill)
T4: Something else maybe a Vengevine.. finish them off.. or the next turn.
Or:
T1: Tap Land
T2: Lotus Cobra
T3: Fetch, Sword and Equip and Swing
T4: Something else maybe a Vengevine.. finish them off.. or the next turn.
Or ideal Equipment hand:
T1: Birds
T2: Lotus Cobra, Fetch, Crusader
T3: Sword equip Crusader and attack..
T4:.. Attack again
T4 Win doesn't always happen, most of the time it is turn 5, but I think Hero of Bladehold is important to keep up that redundancy and can often allow you to swing through a Titan if needed. In general it's quicker(unless you get Mirran Crusader equipped) and more consistent than the Sword plan. With the addition of Skinshifter the number of Pre Hero plays goes up. Skinshifter is much like additional Mirran Crusaders.
Hmm... Anyway, Ancient Stirrings seems interesting. I'd be interested in seeing your list. It's tricky to remove cards but if it does do the trick, I could spare a couple spots as you mentioned a land and an Equipment seems feasible.
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As I started reading your post, the first thing I was going to ask was if you ran Hero of Bladehold. #1 card in the deck against Valakut by a longshot. Way more consistent than getting Crusader+Equipment (especially once Pyroclasm comes in, or the decks that run Bolt). I see you address that in the end. That is the biggest difference.
She is worse against Dismember Valakut, but in general as threats go she is good. And Dismember Valakut usually means that you have the benefit of them starting at a lower life total. Usually from my experience, they don't burn you out the turn they land Primeval. It's when they make the first attack with Primeval. Generally speaking they need to have 8 lands in play before any burning happens (2 Forests, 4 Mountains, and probably the 2 Valakuts they searched up when they played their Primeval).
So usually the problem is if they land Primeval Titan before you land Bladehold. This can happen when they are on draw with a good hand, and especially if they play Cobra and you don't have the dismember. If she lands on the board before Primeval Titan you have probably won the game. Even if you don't get to attack into a clear board, assuming they don't main deck pyroclasm (a lot list have cut down md removal) if you drop a Vengevine, or previously dropped a Mirran Crusader, if you have got a Swing in with a Cobra or Mirran Crusader (or Skinshifter) you can attack after they land the Primeval and still do like 17 points of damage even if they block. The big addition Skinshifter adds is adding yet another castable 4/4. This one is much more splashable than Leatherback Baloth.
I mean openers like this aren't unheard of:
T1: Birds
T2: Cobra, Skinshifter (or Fetch Mirran Crusader)
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 6
T4: Vengevine, Swing for 21(or 22)
or
T1: Birds
T2: Mirran Crusader
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 4
T4: Contested War Zone, Swing for 20
Even T5 is fast enough sometimes:
T1: Tap land
T2: Lotus Cobra
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 2 (perhaps, fetch dismember, opposing Cobra, or Overgrown Battlement)
T4: Vengevine Swing for 15
T5: Win
These are just Bladehold Variations, when you add equipment variations like:
T1: Birds
T2: Sword
T3: Equip Birds (Either probably about 8 damage off War and Peace or Wolf and Mill)
T4: Something else maybe a Vengevine.. finish them off.. or the next turn.
Or:
T1: Tap Land
T2: Lotus Cobra
T3: Fetch, Sword and Equip and Swing
T4: Something else maybe a Vengevine.. finish them off.. or the next turn.
Or ideal Equipment hand:
T1: Birds
T2: Lotus Cobra, Fetch, Crusader
T3: Sword equip Crusader and attack..
T4:.. Attack again
T4 Win doesn't always happen, most of the time it is turn 5, but I think Hero of Bladehold is important to keep up that redundancy and can often allow you to swing through a Titan if needed. In general it's quicker(unless you get Mirran Crusader equipped) and more consistent than the Sword plan. With the addition of Skinshifter the number of Pre Hero plays goes up. Skinshifter is much like additional Mirran Crusaders.
Hmm... Anyway, Ancient Stirrings seems interesting. I'd be interested in seeing your list. It's tricky to remove cards but if it does do the trick, I could spare a couple spots as you mentioned a land and an Equipment seems feasible.
Thanks for the detailed response. True, titan won't usually burn her out on T4 I suppose, unless he ramped to 7 for a GSZ titan, but that is less likely. That does make it much more possible to beat vala in a race with her.
I'll post my deck list once I'm at home again. It's a slightly different tempo than what you have here, more midrange with more removal. I think what you have here may be a better way to go though.
Yeah it's hard to find the right balance, but I've tried a lot of decks recently and this still seems the most consistenly proactive out of the brews I've been making. I've tried Pod etc, and really just having the option to beat down hard is so strong. It isn't even hard to sideboard in Memoricide if needed. The biggest weakness of the deck is Twin by far. But only if they can stall you well and get a good draw. Valakut isn't even bad. I've been working on my Valakut sideboarding but I think I could make it better. Sometimes it feels sideboarding doesn't even do that much. As soon as MTGO gets 12 up I'm going to start trying the list a bit harder.
I'm a little surprised there isn't more interest, but then again the deck seems so simple if not juvenile. This is definitely that little kid GW Aggro feel, but sometimes you reach a threshold of cards where that just works. The deck is incredibly proactive and redundant. It's a lot like Elves that doesn't die to Pyroclasm. The only card I don't really want to see in an aggressive capacity is Blade Splicer. But outside of that most midrange cards that would be coming down early don't really get in the way of the assault.
After some testing I have to agree Metamorph. Skinshifter while decently good, is only good so if I really need to dedicate the racing. Mind you the deck really doesn't need much in the way of late game. I upped my dismember since the 1 mana fits perfect in the curve just like Spell Pierce did for Caw Blade. Something I'm trying is Angelic Destiny. One of the key things that worked for Vengevine decks in the past was the evasion given by Elspeth. This is much more vulnerable, but it ends games the same way. It gives the same push over effect the turn you play it but it fits more midrange (not overextend on the board) strategies than overrun. As long as they don't 2 for 1 you on casting it maintains decent value. Even casting it on a Wolf Token after connecting a SoBaM on Stirring Wildwood after a sweeper and throwing a sword on the Wolf flying over for 8 makes a pretty fast game ender.
I love this build, I might try running it at my FnM and take a break from my mono-green elves...I really like this deck though, that's for sure.
Thanks. I've started testing online pre Oblivion Ring (using Acidic Slime in the spot) but I've found that I haven't been facing nearly as many of the decks I was metagaming against. It seems to be a lot more RDW and Tempered Steel than most other things. So I'm thinking of changing my sideboard slightly. The Linvala's aren't terribly great as while they are good against Twin I have other answers, and there aren't many Elves around. I suppose they slow down Puresteel Paladin decks but I think spot removal is much better general answer. I really like my main deck so I'm thinking maybe sideboard:
So in terms of removal package-
RDW and Vampires: (Objective: Buy time to stabilize)
2 Condemn
2 Celestial Purge
2 Oblivion Ring
X Dismember
Tempered Steel: (Objective: Kill Tempered Steels, and Steel Overseers, and take out whatever else you can)
2 Nature's Claim
2 Condemn
2 Oblivion Ring
X Dismember
Elves (and Gx): (Objective: Keep them off key early drops)
2 Condemn (depending on how aggro)
3 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
Twin: (Objective: Buy time to beat their face in)
2 Natures Claim
2 Celestial Purge
3 Dismember
Control: (Objective: Clear the path for attackers)
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Dismember (or 2 Celestial Purge if heavy Black)
EDIT: Although looking where I want Condemn, perhaps Journey to Nowhere makes more sense since with Dismember I do have instant speed removal covered, which I only really want for Twin. Condemn doesn't help me against Twin or Titan decks, although those are decks that I don't mind the life loss from Dismember. I do have Act of Aggression for Titan decks.. So I guess it comes down to which is better against aggro in general. Green aggro I'd take Journey probably, and R/B I'd take Condemn even though they probably can't deal with a Journey. White is harder. Journey gets rid of key guys, but Condemn can keep off certain equipment attacks etc. I'm not sure.
That is a great list there. Question for you, how is the deck holding up against Valakut, control, Twin decks and other aggro decks? I am trying to formulate my new deck for standard and this has been catching my eye for a while. GW aggro, GW pod, or well af ew other ideas, but trying to keep it relevant.
That is a great list there. Question for you, how is the deck holding up against Valakut, control, Twin decks and other aggro decks? I am trying to formulate my new deck for standard and this has been catching my eye for a while. GW aggro, GW pod, or well af ew other ideas, but trying to keep it relevant.
I started testing on MODO, but pre Angelic Destiny and Pre O-Ring is a huge difference (I'm running 2 Fauna Shaman in the Angelic Slot, and Acidic Slimes where the O-RIngs are). The other thing is MODO seems to be all RDW and Tempered Steel. I've hit way more aggro than anything else. Hence my focus on the sideboard in my previous post. Tempered Steel is bad because they can actually outsize your threats pretty quick.
Valakut has been fine from my other testing. It isn't great but this is very fast GW list. Enough that you aren't complete dog to it. I would say this is one of the better GW lists against Valakut since it is so aggressive. Twin has been more of annoyance, but I think it might be inexperience.
As usual Control matchup is highly favourable. Slow roll your threats don't overextend (but don't be too afraid of permission, force them to use it). Recur Vengevines. Control is breeze.
The tricky part are decks prepared for Tempered Steel. They pack the artifact hate and often enchantment hate. This might be the biggest slight against this deck, because the implied hate. It makes other midrange strategies like Pod can be more of a pain, but usually they are too slow to matter. It might be the one midrange/aggro deck not blue or black (or red) to beat Valakut, but it can be somewhat hated, since you don't get the pure aggressiveness sometimes without the pump..hard to win. I might need to adjust for that. Maybe the enchantment isn't enough maybe a planeswalker changes it more.. Like run a Garruk atleast board.. stuff to consider.
EDIT: This deck preM12 does tend to lose to the decks that lose to Valakut and Twin. Basically any slower midrange type deck if you don't get the right draw. Right now people are trying a lot of rogue strategies that don't beat the top decks. I think with the m12 Additions it will test a lot better on MODO. A lot closer to my testing in Paper and MWS.
I started testing on MODO, but pre Angelic Destiny and Pre O-Ring is a huge difference (I'm running 2 Fauna Shaman in the Angelic Slot, and Acidic Slimes where the O-RIngs are). The other thing is MODO seems to be all RDW and Tempered Steel. I've hit way more aggro than anything else. Hence my focus on the sideboard in my previous post. Tempered Steel is bad because they can actually outsize your threats pretty quick.
Valakut has been fine from my other testing. It isn't great but this is very fast GW list. Enough that you aren't complete dog to it. I would say this is one of the better GW lists against Valakut since it is so aggressive. Twin has been more of annoyance, but I think it might be inexperience.
As usual Control matchup is highly favourable. Slow roll your threats don't overextend (but don't be too afraid of permission, force them to use it). Recur Vengevines. Control is breeze.
The tricky part are decks prepared for Tempered Steel. They pack the artifact hate and often enchantment hate. This might be the biggest slight against this deck, because the implied hate. It makes other midrange strategies like Pod can be more of a pain, but usually they are too slow to matter. It might be the one midrange/aggro deck not blue or black (or red) to beat Valakut, but it can be somewhat hated, since you don't get the pure aggressiveness sometimes without the pump..hard to win. I might need to adjust for that. Maybe the enchantment isn't enough maybe a planeswalker changes it more.. Like run a Garruk atleast board.. stuff to consider.
EDIT: This deck preM12 does tend to lose to the decks that lose to Valakut and Twin. Basically any slower midrange type deck if you don't get the right draw. Right now people are trying a lot of rogue strategies that don't beat the top decks. I think with the m12 Additions it will test a lot better on MODO. A lot closer to my testing in Paper and MWS.
Am interested to hear your thoughts on Angelic Destiny in what testing you've been able to do so far. The majority of the GW lists I've ran in the past 18 months or so have packed Baneslayers, so Destiny was something that seemed interesting as a replacement.
Am interested to hear your thoughts on Angelic Destiny in what testing you've been able to do so far. The majority of the GW lists I've ran in the past 18 months or so have packed Baneslayers, so Destiny was something that seemed interesting as a replacement.
Many thanks.
Angelic Destiny does exactly what I'd want it to do. The thing is this deck is full of creatures the opponent will kill if they can. Lotus Cobra, Mirran Crusader, Hero of Bladehold. So you need to be conscious of 2 for 1's where relevant but more than likely they are going to use up their removal fast. I usually put it on my 2nd best threat anyway if they aren't tapped out since it forces them to use their removal elsewhere. Mind you in this list often the 2nd Best threat is a Vengevine or Mirran Crusader, but it might even be a lowly Bird or Cobra. Hero of Bladehold is by far the best standalone card in the deck, but everything in the list has potential to put Mirran Crusader in that role.
They key difference between Angelic Destiny and Baneslayer is the lifelink. It isn't really replacing Baneslayer. The Batterskulls in the board do that. It is more trying to fill the role of Elspeth Knight Errant. These midrange creatures need evasion and pump to finish out the game. 4 CMC is a critical casting cost. The reason is I can't always guarentee 5 mana on turn 3. To do that I'd need to run probably another set of dorks, making the deck even more vulnerable to Pyroclasm and burn. Turn 4 Baneslayer is too slow to beat Valakut. Turn 3 probably is good, but turn 4 isn't. Angelic Destiny coming down is much more like playing another Vengevine. It's like bang +4 on the attack. The Swords in the deck often act as 5 drop so you don't see them til after the Bladehold, so they do their Evasion job well. To beat Valakut, you want your threats to be cheaper than 5 CMC (so you can secure casting them by turn 3) and your pump to be the most efficient you can find around 5 CMC. Mind you having Angelic Destiny at 4 is nice since it lets your birds attack with Battlecry often for that extra 1 damage or to cast that Dismember etc..
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I'm going to probably cut a land from my list. Throw in a Blade Splicer or something. The deck operates fine at 24 lands especially with Hawks. I don't particularly like the Hawks outside Vengevine recursion which isn't super important. Vengevine in this deck is often more like a pump spell himself.. he's just another quick +4. Shaman would do nothing but attack in a deck like this. Still it's good to have a game to play against Control in these colors, and since I can't protect myself Vengevine recursion is probably pretty key. I can't interact with the opponents game plan outside of removal so being able to protect myself in a way from sweepers and their removal is probably key for this deck to function.
I do have a version without Hawks and runs a couple Ousts and more Blade Splicers. It's naturally is a bit better against Aggro and might be worth sporting if Control isn't a big player. Other option here is a couple Spellskite especially if we start seeing decent hate.
I do also have a Bant list(very light blue splash) that runs permission main (permission removal Suite is 3 Mana Leak, 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Dismember) without Hawks and adds a couple Blade Splicers. This list is definitely the most my style but I don't know how good it will be with so many dead cards to aggro game 1, but definitely has a better Twin matchup Game 1, and a couple permission spells seem to make up for the slightly shakier mana base versus Valakut. I was expecting a lot of decks to be attacking mana bases right now so I didn't want to go this way initially, but I just haven't been seeing it. It might be the best list of them all.
In general though the base of this deck seems to me to be:
8 Mana Dorks (4 Birds, 4 Cobra)
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Hero of Bladehold
7 Pump Effects (5 Swords, 2 Angelic Destiny)
5-9 Other Efficient Creatures that can attack by turn 3 with mana acceleration (preferably with 4 Power)
4-8 Removal Permission
I've realised from more testing I wasn't giving Tempered Steel enough respect. I tried creeping corrosion and board clearing but it doesn't do enough in the deck since Tempered Steel makes any drop a sizeable threat for this deck to deal with. And you can't really justify cutting Naturalize effects for Creeping Corrosion and you want atleast 3 of those. I've found the best option is outsize and Lifegain especially in the air since Inkmoth Nexus is an issue. This is a bit more difficult for sideboarding. The only slot that can get cut is Spellskite. Having to rely on spot removal against Twin is less that preferable but I think cutting Spellskite for another removal and 2 more big lifegainers is the only way to go. That puts my GW sideboard at:
I put together a Bant list too. It allows you to pack some more generic answers in permission. While Spell Pierce better fits the curve I think hard counters is really relevant against Twin and Valakut. I basically don't leave mana up early if I can help it against Valakut since it is more important to get in their proactively. I have removal for Overgrown Battlements and Solemns, and more use the permission for their finishers. Hopefully just keep them off a Titan for a turn or 2. This deck usually only needs to slow them down a turn or so to win. Unified Will is pretty good against Control, Valakut, and Twin (the matchups you want counters) so I don't see any need to run Deprive or Stoic with this deck. It also saves the space people usually dedicate to Flashfreeze.
Back to the drawing board on this. Vengevine is too unplayable in a number of matchups. 3 power first strike is no coincidence. Forcing Mirran Crusader trades is one thing but it completely immobilizes Vengevine. Vengevine never cared about being bulled by more expensive threats but against cheaper ones kills it. The popularity of Porcelain Legionare and Blade Splicer requires either lots of removal or better threats. People still aren't playing DoJ so while Vengevine was important for Valakut plan it isn't good elsewhere. This requires a slight change against Valakut. I'm thinking Bant approach might be necessary. Also new beaters that fit the criteria. Skinshifter, Baneslayer, and Primordial Hydra are top of my list.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
Not sure what to make of this, but figured I'd at least post it here because of its success -- a GW aggro build that made Top 8 at Japan Nationals this weekend. WOTC site says it made the finals, actually, but there's no update on the title game just yet.
The creature choice has it set up to be a Birthing Pod deck, but with only a singleton Pod, that's basically just a backup plan.
I am using 5 pump effects...2 swords, to angelic's, which by the way is aamazing!...and the 1 spirit mantle
I am currently Testing Hero of Bladehold now instead of Vengevine per M's last post even tho I am a huge VV fan.
I have been using 2 thrun, the last troll; 1MB 1SB and I think it should be an auto include. I just stops so much.
Been running skinshifter since I started this deck and he is the best utility man. During testing I have ranged between 2-4 MB and right now I have settled on 2 with 2 green sun's zenith
EDIT
I was playing a much more green centered deck before but now that doesnt make much sense. Here is where I am at now
Not sure what to make of this, but figured I'd at least post it here because of its success -- a GW aggro build that made Top 8 at Japan Nationals this weekend. WOTC site says it made the finals, actually, but there's no update on the title game just yet.
The creature choice has it set up to be a Birthing Pod deck, but with only a singleton Pod, that's basically just a backup plan.
This list is very clever for 2 reasons (2 things I realised around the time I made my last post but hadn't posted a list). The first reason is it avoids almost all splash hate. That is the problem I've been having. The Swords/Enchantment plan is weak. We can settle that our creatures are better than Tempered Steel's.. but a single Tempered Steel unless you have been dealing with every creature is game if you don't have the instant answers up. Creeping Corrosion in the board is exactly where I'm at as well.. punish those Tempered Steel, Puresteel decks at no cost to yourself. The Garruks just up your avenues of win like Swords.
The 2nd reason it is clever is being able to outclass threats is essential but I haven't found a way to do that and race Valakut. I think this list would not have a great Valakut matchup all the time, but it still plays the Core ramp to 4 Heros. Thats been key to this working. Blade Splicer isn't great, but head to head it beats all the threats I've been leaning on..It beats Vengevine and Mirran Crusader so what beats Blade Splicer?.. that's where I'm going, and I think this list is heading the right place. I'm not a huge fan of the Wurmcoils. I want Baneslayer in that spot both as a flyer and a first striker and cheaper to race. I can see how Baneslayer doesn't play around Dismember. But you really only care about that against red decks, which is where you bring the Spellskites in.
Honestly the whole Birthing Pod angle is pretty weak. I think he started as a Pod deck and realised he never really wanted to draw it. I like everything about the deck except for it seems hopeless against Valakut, I think he could streamline it a bit more too.
I am using 5 pump effects...2 swords, to angelic's, which by the way is aamazing!...and the 1 spirit mantle
I am currently Testing Hero of Bladehold now instead of Vengevine per M's last post even tho I am a huge VV fan.
I have been using 2 thrun, the last troll; 1MB 1SB and I think it should be an auto include. I just stops so much.
Been running skinshifter since I started this deck and he is the best utility man. During testing I have ranged between 2-4 MB and right now I have settled on 2 with 2 green sun's zenith
4 Heros in my opinion was the only option ever.. I just liked how Vengevine after a Hero was like +5 damage. It was very swingy.. but Swing into 3/x First Strikers suck. Thrun, is a decent board card, and it is good against Mono Red and can be against control.. but it is saying you want to play the longer game. It does nothing fast enough against Valakut without Evasion. I don't think we can still call it a worse Vengevine given how much hate they have printed for the card. It's unfortunate but the stuff thatmakes Thrun good like enchantments and artifacts are getting huge X's on them.. and I'm starting to think getting away from that is pretty good.
Auras are not good.. in general. The effect pretty much has to be capable of winning you the game in a turn or so to be worth it.. Angelic Destiny is fringing it, and it's coming back makes it borderline, but Spirit Mantle I wouldn't play. Besides the 2 for 1 outside of landing it on Thrun, it is way too hated right now.
Finally, I think Skinshifter is the weakest of the beaters of I've been testing. Dying easy doesn't bug me if your list is full of threats, but he doesn't actually work out as you'd think. He's like a Steppe Lynx. He can get in or play some defense early but he becomes unimpressive especially if early turn mana is tight.. atleast Fauna Shaman beats for 2. He feels like a 3 or 4 drop just cause of his mana cost. He's beyond terrible against red decks. If you get the pump with him you can go the distance. He can play fish alright, but I think I'd only play him in blue decks. I thought differently initially too, but after playing him what Metamorph said earlier in the thread is dead on.
---------------------------------
Now getting to what I've been playing with. Another jank card: Primordial Hydra. Know who he reminds me of ? Knight of the Reliquary. No where as good, but he's as good late game as he is early game. Most important is he works in either scenario, whether as a 3 drop, or of your birds Cobra a 6 drop swinging in as an 8/8 turn 4. Instead of thinking of crazy goldfishes and how much mana you have to cast into him, think of him as another must answer threat. Realistically he's a 4/5 drop, that's where the value starts. I basically view him for what he is when he untaps..
A 2/2 for 3 is pretty crappy (can you say Grey Ogre)
A 4/4 for 4 is pretty average
A 6/6 for 5 is pretty sweet (I think this is the sweet spot, good thing it's Cobras sweet spot too, seriously look at green 5 drops it's a void)
A 8/8 for 6 is not great for Green (as usually that comes with Trample and can't be countered etc) but you wouldn't complain
A 10/10 Trample for 7 seems reasonable (You can do this turn 3 sometimes)
Basically in a deck with Ramp he's pretty much always better than a Blade Splicer. He will be 4 power at pretty much the same time, but only is better at other points. And lets face it, using removal on the token is pretty much like using removal on the creature, that 1/1 isn't doing much.
So what about a Mythic rehash.. GWu good stuff(Zvi original, not the Conscription version). I tried this not too long ago but didn't have good enough early drops. Mirran Crusader was good, but he wasn't impressive enough on his own late game but I think that has been solved.
Anyway, very rough list I'm trying but I think you will get the idea:
Ok so I've been smashing the deck against Tempered Steel, Valakut, and RDW over and over and over.. This has led me to changing quite a few cards but I think I was going in the right direction. First of Elesh Norn, is winmore. It's great against decks that play fast midrange kind of like my original deck. I couldn't win if the opponent landed Elesh Norn. Most aggro decks should win by then.. It sorta acted as a sweeper but the aggro decks around right now can get past it.. it doesn't do enough for the cost. Often it would end the game in a turn or so, but so would any of the other threats getting on that point. The big weakness of the list has been stabilizing against Tempered Steel in the air. Also the deck wanted some card advantage. I looked at some old post M11 lists Zvi was working on and he ran Primeval Titan in Mythic. Then it occurred to me Consecrated Sphinx does exactly what we want. It draws at the same rate, it's Evasion makes it about equal to Primevals trample, and it stabilizes in the air, pretty much burying a lot of decks. The deck never really wanted Jace and this gives us yet another must answer creature.
Hero of Bladehold sucks against non-red aggro.. if they get more bodies on the board than you it doesn't do much.. If those bodies get larger, like they do in Tempered Steel or Elves it is a lot weaker. He isn't nearly as good at racing those strategies without Vengevine. Hero is good against Control, Ramp, and Combo (fastest way to end a game) and can help stabilize against red. Emeria Angel seems perfect in that DoJ type role, where it can stall pretty long in the air and dominate game eventually.
I thought I would like Beast Within in a deck that just goes over, and it is a good answer to Manlands, but I still don't like it, back on O-Ring.
The final addition was moving Spellskite main. He does very little other than be another stabilizer, but he requires that much more removal from opponents to take out your good threats. He also buys a turn against Valakut and some time against Twin..Garruk isn't as impressive as he used to be and the extra ramp wasn't needed, nor the overrun. I went back to Llanowar Elves for this reason as they get you faster out the gate and are repeatable, and the Spellskites give you more defense anyway (Nest Invaders were good against aggro).
All in all this actually freed up board space which let me slip in a couple Condemns which are just a bit more edge against aggro.
Today updated my Gauntlet.. Started using the UW Caw Blade list from SCG Open.. I had my own Caw Blade list I've been running the last couple weeks that was more Caw Go plus Swords without the Slicers and ran maindeck hard counters and 3 DoJ's. It was actually pretty hard for this list to beat since it ran a threshold of hard counters that if I didn't draw right it would be hard. The biggest weakness in this matchup is my best threat against control is a 6 drop which is easy to counter.. However the typical Caw Blade lists aren't like this.
Testing against those has gone a lot better. If you land Primordial Titan or Baneslayer or Consecrated Sphinx their deck doesn't do much. They don't run hard counters outside of Flashfreeze for Valakut so it really isn't hard to just play the same midrange game but better. One cool thing is siding in Nature's Claim against them since it nulls out Oblivion Ring and Swords. Game 2 they have access to 2 DoJ but that usually isn't enough. I've found 3 is about the threshold they need to be at to be annoying to us.
Overall all my test matchups have gotten better. Valakut is a tiny bit weaker, but it's negible. As usual you need to set them back a turn or so to win. Twin is still strong. Tempered Steel is way better. And RDW is even a bit stronger with the Condemns. The weirdest thing so far is how few times I've gotten the right mix of hands. I used to play Mythic which curved similar and I don't ever remember so often not hitting any mana dorks. Might be MWS shuffler. I hope to try the deck online soon when M12 comes available.
It almost wants more draw velocity but it doesn't really want less creatures.. Even Oblivion Ring/Dismember while good feel like they have some issues when you run into them against some decks and Spellskite while decent in a number of matchups might not be quite worth the maindeck. It almost wants Preordain. But it really doesn't. It could want the new Garruk, but he is no help against Valakut. I do wonder how higher creature threshold would work.. Maybe bring back the Mirran Crusader? Perhaps Blade Splicer or Leatherback Baloth?.. I think the deck needs another aggressive 3 drop. Not sure what is best.
Anyway as usually looking for thoughts. Feel free to post your lists.
I started to figure out where the flow weakened. I was correct that the list wanted another 3 drop. The pickings are just hard. Every slot has to be dependable since you want them to use up all their removal and you might be left with your worst threat. Leatherback Baloth is really the only contender. Of course he wants 18 green sources in my previous testing. Also is this deck needs more fetchlands. This is tricky on the mana base. Especially with the desire of double of all three colors. Sphinx wasn't doing enough(Emeria did most of what I wanted out of board) so I decided to cut down my blue requirement. True Conviction is getting a try again. It underperformed when the cheap threats weren't efficient enough or numerous enough. But we seem to be getting to that threshold. It like Finest Hour let our manlands do a lot of work late game and it survives sweepers. It doesn't risk 2 for 1 as readily as Angelic Destiny and it also can immediately end games. Here is my current list. This deck has pretty much become Mythic.
This uses Swords but it is not like the Hexproof lists. Those usually trade better creatures for ones that dodge removal, yet still have very little evasion. The philosophy for this list is much like Mythic. All the best threats at the casting cost.
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Stirring Wildwood
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Forest
3 Plains
1 Contested War Zone
Creatures(27):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Squadron Hawks
3 Skinshifter
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Vengevine
2 Dismember
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Sword of War and Peace
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Nature's Claim
2 Celestial Purge
3 Spellskite
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Linvala Keeper of Silence
2 Batterskull
3 Act of Aggression
Basically this deck packs 15 creatures that can swing for 8 damage alone (Bladehold + 1 the mana accelerator) by the end of turn 4 with a mana accelerator. The idea is that any 2 can do lethal damage by turn 5. Obviously this is an ideal situation, but there are so many aggressive lines of play in the deck including Birds, and Cobra's both supporting turn 3 swing with Swords. And Hawks + Vengevine + Equipment supporting into the late game.
The classic weak matchup for a list like this would be Valakut, but this deck has a fast enough clock especially with the afterboard Act of Aggression's that it's Valakut matchup isn't that bad. Twin is kept in check by Spellskite, Linvala, Celestial Purge, Nature's Claim, Dismember, and if you really want it Act of Aggression. Aggro is kept in check with the Spellskites, and Batterskull along with Swords. And as you can imagine Control has issues with Vengevine and a multitude of cheap threats that don't require overextending (15 creatures that take down a Wall of Omens without equipment, and 8 that fly over).
After more testing:
Vengevine and artifact/auras are not where I want to be given all the splash hate. I think it's time to just play the biggest and best threats and force opponents to deal, Mythic style.
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Primordial Hydra
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Primeval Titan
Other(14):
4 Preordain
3 Stave Off
4 Explore
3 True Conviction
3 Nature's Claim
3 Torpor Orb
3 Timely Reinforcement
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Baneslayer Angel
Birthing Pod version of the Mythic Idea (Current List I Play):
I decided to try to up some of the value. The deck needed it since it couldn't consistently win fast enough. This version still puts on a lot of early pressure but sort of like JtMS applies it in different avenues.
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Seachrome Coast
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains
Creatures(18):
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Lotus Cobra
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Hero of Bladehold
2 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
2 Into the Roil
3 Birthing Pod
2 Gideon Jura
3 True Conviction
3 Mental Misstep
2 Nature's Claim
3 Spellskite
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Timely Reinforcement
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Primordial Hydra
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Thanks.. I was actually a little surprised that the list has been working so well. I don't think it's really playable til M12 comes out and we get Oblivion Ring and Skinshifter, so it must just come down to redundancy.
Looking at the list doesn't look like much of anything, but once you figure out some of the ideal goldfishes (Turn 4 wins, even through landed Titans), and some semi ideal goldfishes (Turn 5 wins), you start seeing that it's a lot like playing a deck where you can have 15(well 16 technically) copies of your best card. Accelerator into any 2 of the beaters, or 1 and a Sword etc.. can pull out very quick wins. It's surprising how many ways the deck can pull this out. The semi-ideal goldfishes are actually pretty regular. Removal is a pain, but everything is pretty efficiently costed and Vengevine is good against non-white removal, Mirran Crusader is good against non-red removal, Hero of Bladehold is good against non-black removal, and Skin Shifter is good against non-black, non-white removal (but it only costs 2). Permission can slow you down a bit too, but this deck puts on enough early pressure and can get ahead in mana and even cast 2 spells a turn. Nothing in the deck costs more than 4 cmc.
Given the Phyrexian Spells and Oblivion Ring it's actually quite easy to sideboard since the answers are generic enough and don't require splashing Black or Red. I think UR Twin might still be the hardest matchup, but it is by no means terrible, you just need to make sure you get the anti Twin cards in hand, or that they are a bit unlucky. Valakut can be close too, but I think it is pretty close for everyone (except UB Control maybe). The list might be a bit weak to other Lotus Cobra decks (with only 2 Dismember) but Act of Aggression should be used here, steal whatever they cast hopefully with a Hero of Bladehold strike enough to take down the game. Still room to move numbers around if that isn't reasonable. Either way it's nice to see such a simple concept work pretty well.
I think Twin, Valakut are the worse matchups but they are probably 50/50 at worse postboard. Pre board, I think Valakut might be like 45-55. And Twin like 40-60. The list seems to kill control, and be good against other aggro (especially post board). The proactive plan is strong enough that it does pretty well against rogue lists and well against random non-interactive aggro decks (like Tempered Steel/Elves) on the play since it can push a clock very similar to theirs. Not folding to DoJ though is a pretty nice treat.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I also kinda like beatdown decks. they look like midrange decks because of the mana costs but thats deceptive, really these are pretty close to pure aggro thats using a very green sort of plan of mana accelerators into bigger guys instead of the red or white sort of plan of playing efficient 1 and 2 drops.
so its base green beatdown and thats what i like. i think there's some good ways to do this for sure. what i'd like to get is a deck that has some of the play of Mythic Bant which could either come out explosively with nuts draws or switch to a midgame card advantage plan with planeswalkers. i think the same thing can be achieved again here. Garruk, Primal Hunter seems like a wonderful curve topper.
anyway, here's what i've got.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Hero of Bladehold
3 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Gideon Jura
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Dismember
2 Rampant Growth
3 Sword of War and Peace
Lands - 24
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Stirring Wildwood
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
2 Verdant Catacomb
4 Forest
comments
I don't like Skinshifter in this type of deck because it interferes so much with your curving out plays. He effectively Stone Rains you if you want to attack every turn. don't like. I'm also pushing towards a planeswalker based midgame rather than a Vengevine plan. I think Garruk and Gideon are just more powerful in general, even if slightly slower. They can come out as early as turn 3 here (off a Cobra + fetchland start, or a Joraga Treespeaker start) and they both just completely dominate the board. I'm using Rampant Growth as a secondary accelerator in addition to all the creature mana because there will be some awkward starts where you have a tapped dualland or something and can't make a good play on turn 2. this should help guarantee that you get to make a good play on turn 3 no matter what though.
haven't playtested, just theory crafted so maybe its not the right approach. i do like the idea of ramping into Gideon and Garruk though. they're both so powerful and also ridiculously powerful together. i feel like this deck should be fast enough to race Valakut and solid enough to compete with control. matchups that might (in theory) be weak would be against Red (they burn your mana guys) and Splinter Twin (not much disruption in this deck.
But the ability to race Valakut is pretty important and is the reason for most of my decisions. Even if we match their ramp, their game plan is better. So there isn't much point in doing so. We don't have enough disruption either. Racing them like an aggro deck is the best I've come up with, hence why I like so many cheap aggressive threats. The list isn't unlike the aggressive tendencies of Boros. It's not Steppe Lynx and Plated Geopedes, but it is other cheap creatures smashing in for 4 as soon as possible.
The reason I like Skinshifter is largely the 4/4 Trample mode. The trample + Swords is awesome.. I think the fact they can use removal in response kind of sucks and no one cares about the 1/1.. but that is different with a 1/1 carrying equipment. It is definitely the weaker of the beaters, but this deck does a lot of beating.. even the Lotus Cobras. I've played Fauna Shaman who does the same to you Stone Rain wise. Since I keep the curve low it is as good of use of extra lands as anything. The key thing is you get to a threshold of these creature threats that is more than opponents can handle.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'm running basically the same thing now, but with ancient stirrings to replace mystic. Ancient stirrings is actually a fairly good tutor in the deck and is maybe something you should consider too. You can drop some of the equips and maybe a land, as it will usually find you an equip, or prevent mana/color screw.
Against valakut I lose unless I can get an equiped mirran crusader by turn 4 when the titan hits, which is not easy. How are you doing so well (45/55) against vala preboard?
I don't run hero of blade hold, though she does fit and is very good, but I don't see her improving my vala matchup, the biggest weakness so far. Even if she swings turn 4 into an empty board before the titan, it won't be lethal and she will be burned out when he lands. This is why thrun is in my 4 slot, he does a much better job stalling vala, and can steal wins if I get a batterskull on him by turn 5 or 6 just before I get burned out.
As I started reading your post, the first thing I was going to ask was if you ran Hero of Bladehold. #1 card in the deck against Valakut by a longshot. Way more consistent than getting Crusader+Equipment (especially once Pyroclasm comes in, or the decks that run Bolt). I see you address that in the end. That is the biggest difference.
She is worse against Dismember Valakut, but in general as threats go she is good. And Dismember Valakut usually means that you have the benefit of them starting at a lower life total. Usually from my experience, they don't burn you out the turn they land Primeval. It's when they make the first attack with Primeval. Generally speaking they need to have 8 lands in play before any burning happens (2 Forests, 4 Mountains, and probably the 2 Valakuts they searched up when they played their Primeval).
So usually the problem is if they land Primeval Titan before you land Bladehold. This can happen when they are on draw with a good hand, and especially if they play Cobra and you don't have the dismember. If she lands on the board before Primeval Titan you have probably won the game. Even if you don't get to attack into a clear board, assuming they don't main deck pyroclasm (a lot list have cut down md removal) if you drop a Vengevine, or previously dropped a Mirran Crusader, if you have got a Swing in with a Cobra or Mirran Crusader (or Skinshifter) you can attack after they land the Primeval and still do like 17 points of damage even if they block. The big addition Skinshifter adds is adding yet another castable 4/4. This one is much more splashable than Leatherback Baloth.
I mean openers like this aren't unheard of:
T1: Birds
T2: Cobra, Skinshifter (or Fetch Mirran Crusader)
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 6
T4: Vengevine, Swing for 21(or 22)
or
T1: Birds
T2: Mirran Crusader
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 4
T4: Contested War Zone, Swing for 20
Even T5 is fast enough sometimes:
T1: Tap land
T2: Lotus Cobra
T3: Hero of Bladehold, Swing for 2 (perhaps, fetch dismember, opposing Cobra, or Overgrown Battlement)
T4: Vengevine Swing for 15
T5: Win
These are just Bladehold Variations, when you add equipment variations like:
T1: Birds
T2: Sword
T3: Equip Birds (Either probably about 8 damage off War and Peace or Wolf and Mill)
T4: Something else maybe a Vengevine.. finish them off.. or the next turn.
Or:
T1: Tap Land
T2: Lotus Cobra
T3: Fetch, Sword and Equip and Swing
T4: Something else maybe a Vengevine.. finish them off.. or the next turn.
Or ideal Equipment hand:
T1: Birds
T2: Lotus Cobra, Fetch, Crusader
T3: Sword equip Crusader and attack..
T4:.. Attack again
T4 Win doesn't always happen, most of the time it is turn 5, but I think Hero of Bladehold is important to keep up that redundancy and can often allow you to swing through a Titan if needed. In general it's quicker(unless you get Mirran Crusader equipped) and more consistent than the Sword plan. With the addition of Skinshifter the number of Pre Hero plays goes up. Skinshifter is much like additional Mirran Crusaders.
Hmm... Anyway, Ancient Stirrings seems interesting. I'd be interested in seeing your list. It's tricky to remove cards but if it does do the trick, I could spare a couple spots as you mentioned a land and an Equipment seems feasible.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Thanks for the detailed response. True, titan won't usually burn her out on T4 I suppose, unless he ramped to 7 for a GSZ titan, but that is less likely. That does make it much more possible to beat vala in a race with her.
I'll post my deck list once I'm at home again. It's a slightly different tempo than what you have here, more midrange with more removal. I think what you have here may be a better way to go though.
I'm a little surprised there isn't more interest, but then again the deck seems so simple if not juvenile. This is definitely that little kid GW Aggro feel, but sometimes you reach a threshold of cards where that just works. The deck is incredibly proactive and redundant. It's a lot like Elves that doesn't die to Pyroclasm. The only card I don't really want to see in an aggressive capacity is Blade Splicer. But outside of that most midrange cards that would be coming down early don't really get in the way of the assault.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
3 Stirring Wildwood
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Forest
3 Plains
1 Contested War Zone
Creatures(24):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Squadron Hawks
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Vengevine
3 Dismember
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Sword of War and Peace
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Angelic Destiny
2 Nature's Claim
2 Celestial Purge
3 Spellskite
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Linvala Keeper of Silence
2 Batterskull
3 Act of Aggression
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Thanks. I've started testing online pre Oblivion Ring (using Acidic Slime in the spot) but I've found that I haven't been facing nearly as many of the decks I was metagaming against. It seems to be a lot more RDW and Tempered Steel than most other things. So I'm thinking of changing my sideboard slightly. The Linvala's aren't terribly great as while they are good against Twin I have other answers, and there aren't many Elves around. I suppose they slow down Puresteel Paladin decks but I think spot removal is much better general answer. I really like my main deck so I'm thinking maybe sideboard:
2 Condemn
2 Celestial Purge
3 Spellskite
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Batterskull
3 Act of Aggression
So in terms of removal package-
RDW and Vampires: (Objective: Buy time to stabilize)
2 Condemn
2 Celestial Purge
2 Oblivion Ring
X Dismember
Tempered Steel: (Objective: Kill Tempered Steels, and Steel Overseers, and take out whatever else you can)
2 Nature's Claim
2 Condemn
2 Oblivion Ring
X Dismember
Elves (and Gx): (Objective: Keep them off key early drops)
2 Condemn (depending on how aggro)
3 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
Twin: (Objective: Buy time to beat their face in)
2 Natures Claim
2 Celestial Purge
3 Dismember
Control: (Objective: Clear the path for attackers)
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Dismember (or 2 Celestial Purge if heavy Black)
EDIT: Although looking where I want Condemn, perhaps Journey to Nowhere makes more sense since with Dismember I do have instant speed removal covered, which I only really want for Twin. Condemn doesn't help me against Twin or Titan decks, although those are decks that I don't mind the life loss from Dismember. I do have Act of Aggression for Titan decks.. So I guess it comes down to which is better against aggro in general. Green aggro I'd take Journey probably, and R/B I'd take Condemn even though they probably can't deal with a Journey. White is harder. Journey gets rid of key guys, but Condemn can keep off certain equipment attacks etc. I'm not sure.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I started testing on MODO, but pre Angelic Destiny and Pre O-Ring is a huge difference (I'm running 2 Fauna Shaman in the Angelic Slot, and Acidic Slimes where the O-RIngs are). The other thing is MODO seems to be all RDW and Tempered Steel. I've hit way more aggro than anything else. Hence my focus on the sideboard in my previous post. Tempered Steel is bad because they can actually outsize your threats pretty quick.
Valakut has been fine from my other testing. It isn't great but this is very fast GW list. Enough that you aren't complete dog to it. I would say this is one of the better GW lists against Valakut since it is so aggressive. Twin has been more of annoyance, but I think it might be inexperience.
As usual Control matchup is highly favourable. Slow roll your threats don't overextend (but don't be too afraid of permission, force them to use it). Recur Vengevines. Control is breeze.
The tricky part are decks prepared for Tempered Steel. They pack the artifact hate and often enchantment hate. This might be the biggest slight against this deck, because the implied hate. It makes other midrange strategies like Pod can be more of a pain, but usually they are too slow to matter. It might be the one midrange/aggro deck not blue or black (or red) to beat Valakut, but it can be somewhat hated, since you don't get the pure aggressiveness sometimes without the pump..hard to win. I might need to adjust for that. Maybe the enchantment isn't enough maybe a planeswalker changes it more.. Like run a Garruk atleast board.. stuff to consider.
EDIT: This deck preM12 does tend to lose to the decks that lose to Valakut and Twin. Basically any slower midrange type deck if you don't get the right draw. Right now people are trying a lot of rogue strategies that don't beat the top decks. I think with the m12 Additions it will test a lot better on MODO. A lot closer to my testing in Paper and MWS.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Am interested to hear your thoughts on Angelic Destiny in what testing you've been able to do so far. The majority of the GW lists I've ran in the past 18 months or so have packed Baneslayers, so Destiny was something that seemed interesting as a replacement.
Many thanks.
Angelic Destiny does exactly what I'd want it to do. The thing is this deck is full of creatures the opponent will kill if they can. Lotus Cobra, Mirran Crusader, Hero of Bladehold. So you need to be conscious of 2 for 1's where relevant but more than likely they are going to use up their removal fast. I usually put it on my 2nd best threat anyway if they aren't tapped out since it forces them to use their removal elsewhere. Mind you in this list often the 2nd Best threat is a Vengevine or Mirran Crusader, but it might even be a lowly Bird or Cobra. Hero of Bladehold is by far the best standalone card in the deck, but everything in the list has potential to put Mirran Crusader in that role.
They key difference between Angelic Destiny and Baneslayer is the lifelink. It isn't really replacing Baneslayer. The Batterskulls in the board do that. It is more trying to fill the role of Elspeth Knight Errant. These midrange creatures need evasion and pump to finish out the game. 4 CMC is a critical casting cost. The reason is I can't always guarentee 5 mana on turn 3. To do that I'd need to run probably another set of dorks, making the deck even more vulnerable to Pyroclasm and burn. Turn 4 Baneslayer is too slow to beat Valakut. Turn 3 probably is good, but turn 4 isn't. Angelic Destiny coming down is much more like playing another Vengevine. It's like bang +4 on the attack. The Swords in the deck often act as 5 drop so you don't see them til after the Bladehold, so they do their Evasion job well. To beat Valakut, you want your threats to be cheaper than 5 CMC (so you can secure casting them by turn 3) and your pump to be the most efficient you can find around 5 CMC. Mind you having Angelic Destiny at 4 is nice since it lets your birds attack with Battlecry often for that extra 1 damage or to cast that Dismember etc..
--------------------------
I'm going to probably cut a land from my list. Throw in a Blade Splicer or something. The deck operates fine at 24 lands especially with Hawks. I don't particularly like the Hawks outside Vengevine recursion which isn't super important. Vengevine in this deck is often more like a pump spell himself.. he's just another quick +4. Shaman would do nothing but attack in a deck like this. Still it's good to have a game to play against Control in these colors, and since I can't protect myself Vengevine recursion is probably pretty key. I can't interact with the opponents game plan outside of removal so being able to protect myself in a way from sweepers and their removal is probably key for this deck to function.
I do have a version without Hawks and runs a couple Ousts and more Blade Splicers. It's naturally is a bit better against Aggro and might be worth sporting if Control isn't a big player. Other option here is a couple Spellskite especially if we start seeing decent hate.
I do also have a Bant list(very light blue splash) that runs permission main (permission removal Suite is 3 Mana Leak, 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Dismember) without Hawks and adds a couple Blade Splicers. This list is definitely the most my style but I don't know how good it will be with so many dead cards to aggro game 1, but definitely has a better Twin matchup Game 1, and a couple permission spells seem to make up for the slightly shakier mana base versus Valakut. I was expecting a lot of decks to be attacking mana bases right now so I didn't want to go this way initially, but I just haven't been seeing it. It might be the best list of them all.
In general though the base of this deck seems to me to be:
8 Mana Dorks (4 Birds, 4 Cobra)
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Hero of Bladehold
7 Pump Effects (5 Swords, 2 Angelic Destiny)
5-9 Other Efficient Creatures that can attack by turn 3 with mana acceleration (preferably with 4 Power)
4-8 Removal Permission
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Skinshifter
3 Vengevine
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Spells:
2 Angelic Destiny
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Dismember
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Stirring Wildwood
4 Razormane Thicket
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Naturalize
2 Batterskull
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Beast Within
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Oblivion Ring
-------------------------------
I've realised from more testing I wasn't giving Tempered Steel enough respect. I tried creeping corrosion and board clearing but it doesn't do enough in the deck since Tempered Steel makes any drop a sizeable threat for this deck to deal with. And you can't really justify cutting Naturalize effects for Creeping Corrosion and you want atleast 3 of those. I've found the best option is outsize and Lifegain especially in the air since Inkmoth Nexus is an issue. This is a bit more difficult for sideboarding. The only slot that can get cut is Spellskite. Having to rely on spot removal against Twin is less that preferable but I think cutting Spellskite for another removal and 2 more big lifegainers is the only way to go. That puts my GW sideboard at:
3 Nature's Claim
3 Celestial Purge
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Act of Aggression
2 Batterskull
2 Baneslayer Angel
I put together a Bant list too. It allows you to pack some more generic answers in permission. While Spell Pierce better fits the curve I think hard counters is really relevant against Twin and Valakut. I basically don't leave mana up early if I can help it against Valakut since it is more important to get in their proactively. I have removal for Overgrown Battlements and Solemns, and more use the permission for their finishers. Hopefully just keep them off a Titan for a turn or 2. This deck usually only needs to slow them down a turn or so to win. Unified Will is pretty good against Control, Valakut, and Twin (the matchups you want counters) so I don't see any need to run Deprive or Stoic with this deck. It also saves the space people usually dedicate to Flashfreeze.
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Plain
Creatures(22):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Blade Splicer
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Vengevine
3 Sword of War and Peace
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Angelic Destiny
Other(7):
2 Oust
2 Dismember
3 Mana Leak
3 Nature's Claim
3 Celestial Purge
3 Unified Will
2 Oblivion Rings
2 Batterskull
2 Baneslayer Angel
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
The creature choice has it set up to be a Birthing Pod deck, but with only a singleton Pod, that's basically just a backup plan.
2 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Stirring Wildwood
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Acidic Slime
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Blade Splicer
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Hero of Bladehold
3 Lotus Cobra
4 Nest Invader
1 Obstinate Baloth
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Journey to Nowhere
1 Acidic Slime
2 Celestial Purge
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Gaea's Revenge
2 Lone Missionary
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Spellskite
2 Summoning Trap
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Thoughts on this card?
I am using 5 pump effects...2 swords, to angelic's, which by the way is aamazing!...and the 1 spirit mantle
I am currently Testing Hero of Bladehold now instead of Vengevine per M's last post even tho I am a huge VV fan.
I have been using 2 thrun, the last troll; 1MB 1SB and I think it should be an auto include. I just stops so much.
Been running skinshifter since I started this deck and he is the best utility man. During testing I have ranged between 2-4 MB and right now I have settled on 2 with 2 green sun's zenith
EDIT
I was playing a much more green centered deck before but now that doesnt make much sense. Here is where I am at now
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Skinrender
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Thru, the last troll
4 Hero of Bladehold
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Elspeth Tirel
3 Dismember
3 Oblivion Ring
1 sword of body and mind
1 sword of war and peace
2 angelic destiny
1 spirit mantle
This list is very clever for 2 reasons (2 things I realised around the time I made my last post but hadn't posted a list). The first reason is it avoids almost all splash hate. That is the problem I've been having. The Swords/Enchantment plan is weak. We can settle that our creatures are better than Tempered Steel's.. but a single Tempered Steel unless you have been dealing with every creature is game if you don't have the instant answers up. Creeping Corrosion in the board is exactly where I'm at as well.. punish those Tempered Steel, Puresteel decks at no cost to yourself. The Garruks just up your avenues of win like Swords.
The 2nd reason it is clever is being able to outclass threats is essential but I haven't found a way to do that and race Valakut. I think this list would not have a great Valakut matchup all the time, but it still plays the Core ramp to 4 Heros. Thats been key to this working. Blade Splicer isn't great, but head to head it beats all the threats I've been leaning on..It beats Vengevine and Mirran Crusader so what beats Blade Splicer?.. that's where I'm going, and I think this list is heading the right place. I'm not a huge fan of the Wurmcoils. I want Baneslayer in that spot both as a flyer and a first striker and cheaper to race. I can see how Baneslayer doesn't play around Dismember. But you really only care about that against red decks, which is where you bring the Spellskites in.
Honestly the whole Birthing Pod angle is pretty weak. I think he started as a Pod deck and realised he never really wanted to draw it. I like everything about the deck except for it seems hopeless against Valakut, I think he could streamline it a bit more too.
4 Heros in my opinion was the only option ever.. I just liked how Vengevine after a Hero was like +5 damage. It was very swingy.. but Swing into 3/x First Strikers suck. Thrun, is a decent board card, and it is good against Mono Red and can be against control.. but it is saying you want to play the longer game. It does nothing fast enough against Valakut without Evasion. I don't think we can still call it a worse Vengevine given how much hate they have printed for the card. It's unfortunate but the stuff thatmakes Thrun good like enchantments and artifacts are getting huge X's on them.. and I'm starting to think getting away from that is pretty good.
Auras are not good.. in general. The effect pretty much has to be capable of winning you the game in a turn or so to be worth it.. Angelic Destiny is fringing it, and it's coming back makes it borderline, but Spirit Mantle I wouldn't play. Besides the 2 for 1 outside of landing it on Thrun, it is way too hated right now.
Finally, I think Skinshifter is the weakest of the beaters of I've been testing. Dying easy doesn't bug me if your list is full of threats, but he doesn't actually work out as you'd think. He's like a Steppe Lynx. He can get in or play some defense early but he becomes unimpressive especially if early turn mana is tight.. atleast Fauna Shaman beats for 2. He feels like a 3 or 4 drop just cause of his mana cost. He's beyond terrible against red decks. If you get the pump with him you can go the distance. He can play fish alright, but I think I'd only play him in blue decks. I thought differently initially too, but after playing him what Metamorph said earlier in the thread is dead on.
---------------------------------
Now getting to what I've been playing with. Another jank card: Primordial Hydra. Know who he reminds me of ? Knight of the Reliquary. No where as good, but he's as good late game as he is early game. Most important is he works in either scenario, whether as a 3 drop, or of your birds Cobra a 6 drop swinging in as an 8/8 turn 4. Instead of thinking of crazy goldfishes and how much mana you have to cast into him, think of him as another must answer threat. Realistically he's a 4/5 drop, that's where the value starts. I basically view him for what he is when he untaps..
A 2/2 for 3 is pretty crappy (can you say Grey Ogre)
A 4/4 for 4 is pretty average
A 6/6 for 5 is pretty sweet (I think this is the sweet spot, good thing it's Cobras sweet spot too, seriously look at green 5 drops it's a void)
A 8/8 for 6 is not great for Green (as usually that comes with Trample and can't be countered etc) but you wouldn't complain
A 10/10 Trample for 7 seems reasonable (You can do this turn 3 sometimes)
Basically in a deck with Ramp he's pretty much always better than a Blade Splicer. He will be 4 power at pretty much the same time, but only is better at other points. And lets face it, using removal on the token is pretty much like using removal on the creature, that 1/1 isn't doing much.
So what about a Mythic rehash.. GWu good stuff(Zvi original, not the Conscription version). I tried this not too long ago but didn't have good enough early drops. Mirran Crusader was good, but he wasn't impressive enough on his own late game but I think that has been solved.
Anyway, very rough list I'm trying but I think you will get the idea:
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Nest Invader
4 Primordial Hydra
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Other(10):
2 Dismember
4 Mana Leak
2 Beast Within
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Nature's Claim
3 Celestial Purge
2 Unified Will
3 Spellskite
2 Hunter's Insight
2 Creeping Corrosion
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Hero of Bladehold sucks against non-red aggro.. if they get more bodies on the board than you it doesn't do much.. If those bodies get larger, like they do in Tempered Steel or Elves it is a lot weaker. He isn't nearly as good at racing those strategies without Vengevine. Hero is good against Control, Ramp, and Combo (fastest way to end a game) and can help stabilize against red. Emeria Angel seems perfect in that DoJ type role, where it can stall pretty long in the air and dominate game eventually.
I thought I would like Beast Within in a deck that just goes over, and it is a good answer to Manlands, but I still don't like it, back on O-Ring.
The final addition was moving Spellskite main. He does very little other than be another stabilizer, but he requires that much more removal from opponents to take out your good threats. He also buys a turn against Valakut and some time against Twin..Garruk isn't as impressive as he used to be and the extra ramp wasn't needed, nor the overrun. I went back to Llanowar Elves for this reason as they get you faster out the gate and are repeatable, and the Spellskites give you more defense anyway (Nest Invaders were good against aggro).
All in all this actually freed up board space which let me slip in a couple Condemns which are just a bit more edge against aggro.
So here is my updated list:
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Lotus Cobra
2 Spellskite
4 Primordial Hydra
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Consecrated Sphinx
Other(8):
2 Dismember
4 Mana Leak
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Condemn
3 Nature's Claim
3 Celestial Purge
2 Unified Will
1 Spellskite
2 Emeria Angel
2 Creeping Corrosion
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Testing against those has gone a lot better. If you land Primordial Titan or Baneslayer or Consecrated Sphinx their deck doesn't do much. They don't run hard counters outside of Flashfreeze for Valakut so it really isn't hard to just play the same midrange game but better. One cool thing is siding in Nature's Claim against them since it nulls out Oblivion Ring and Swords. Game 2 they have access to 2 DoJ but that usually isn't enough. I've found 3 is about the threshold they need to be at to be annoying to us.
Overall all my test matchups have gotten better. Valakut is a tiny bit weaker, but it's negible. As usual you need to set them back a turn or so to win. Twin is still strong. Tempered Steel is way better. And RDW is even a bit stronger with the Condemns. The weirdest thing so far is how few times I've gotten the right mix of hands. I used to play Mythic which curved similar and I don't ever remember so often not hitting any mana dorks. Might be MWS shuffler. I hope to try the deck online soon when M12 comes available.
It almost wants more draw velocity but it doesn't really want less creatures.. Even Oblivion Ring/Dismember while good feel like they have some issues when you run into them against some decks and Spellskite while decent in a number of matchups might not be quite worth the maindeck. It almost wants Preordain. But it really doesn't. It could want the new Garruk, but he is no help against Valakut. I do wonder how higher creature threshold would work.. Maybe bring back the Mirran Crusader? Perhaps Blade Splicer or Leatherback Baloth?.. I think the deck needs another aggressive 3 drop. Not sure what is best.
Anyway as usually looking for thoughts. Feel free to post your lists.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Seachrome Coast
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
5 Forest
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Lotus Cobra
2 Spellskite
4 Leatherback Baloth
4 Primordial Hydra
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Baneslayer Angel
Other(6):
4 Mana Leak
2 True Conviction
2 Condemn
3 Nature's Claim
3 Celestial Purge
2 Unified Will
1 Spellskite
2 Emeria Angel
2 Creeping Corrosion
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage