1) I agree with your suggestion; Iona it should be.
2) It's basically Time Walk against aggro decks, and considering aggro is trying to race you to the finish, one extra turn can mean all the difference. Boros, any flavor of red, Fauna Shaman/Vengevine, and Vampires are all weak to it.
3) Good suggestion. A Verdant Catacomb and a Scalding Tarn will get thrown in.
So I feel like this is the strongest build so far. With that though, I have to question how strong you feel spell pierce is in the side? I always waver as to whether or not it's good, and I never can really put my finger on if it needs inclusion or not. Not really a strong suggestion, I know, but I do feel like it's your weakest SB slot. Food for thought.
Great build though. =)
Edit:
Also, ya, I totally support the inclusion of fog. Not only that, but you can get beta fogs for like, a dollar?! Pimpness!
So I feel like this is the strongest build so far. With that though, I have to question how strong you feel spell pierce is in the side? I always waver as to whether or not it's good, and I never can really put my finger on if it needs inclusion or not. Not really a strong suggestion, I know, but I do feel like it's your weakest SB slot. Food for thought.
Great build though. =)
Edit:
Also, ya, I totally support the inclusion of fog. Not only that, but you can get beta fogs for like, a dollar?! Pimpness!
Any suggestions for those 3 slots? I think Spell Pierce is kind of good for when you want to protect a Mass Polymorph or win a counterspell war, but those situations may be too infrequent to get enough value out of the Spell Pierces. Maybe something like Into the Roil? It can prevent you from randomly losing to really strange stuff your opponent can throw at you.
I don't know. I haven't given it much thought, honestly. I really just cobbled together the sideboard based on the sideboards of other lists in this thread, assuming that they work. I'd have to actually test matchups against Caw Blade and RUG and UB to see if Spell Pierce is worth the slots.
My gut tells me that they'll be good, because they're probably not going to play around it (this is still a rogue deck, despite being featured on the motherboard, so people won't know what to play around), and you can just take a trip to value town when they tap out for a Jace or something against you.
EDIT: Just thought of something. Opponents may get smart game 2 and just kill off your tokens so you can never MP for more than 1. This could be problematic, since there are really only 12 ways for this deck to make creatures, and only one of them continually makes creatures. Drawing multiples of these 12 isn't hard since there's so much card draw, but things can get dicey if your opponent plays smart and is able to pressure you significantly while killing off your tokens.
With the amount of draw/filtering you have, I think you could cut out 2 Mass Polymorphs and still get one reliably. Mini Jace, Flayer Husk or Mortar Pod would be my suggestions for possible replacements.
no... in a deck like this dropping to 2 of the win condition would be stupid it is an auto 4 of
Who wouldn't side in Fog against aggro? Has saved my butt and sealed the win for me several times playing my build. I actually have 3 MB and 1 SB. Fog is a very powerful card.
500 damage swinging my way? Uh....FOG IN YO FACE!
Seems to me it only delays and eats up valuable card slots that could be getting you closer to going off. I guess it does work well with Awakening Zone though.
Its a pity there isn't a good other way to slow down aggro in U/G, especially when creature cards are ruled out.
The Emrakul Iona Stormtide package is strictly better IMHO. It is cool though don't get me wrong. Should be MB and then frees up a few sb slots
I will keep saying it as often as I have to,
The fattie package doesn't win games instantly. It leaves you vulnerable to a wipe spell the next turn. The Wurmsaphant bomb wins the game on the spot, that's why we rock it
EDIT: Just thought of something. Opponents may get smart game 2 and just kill off your tokens so you can never MP for more than 1. This could be problematic, since there are really only 12 ways for this deck to make creatures, and only one of them continually makes creatures. Drawing multiples of these 12 isn't hard since there's so much card draw, but things can get dicey if your opponent plays smart and is able to pressure you significantly while killing off your tokens.
That's the reason why I put Gelatinous Genesis as a one-of. Post wipes, it spawns 2-3 tokens at once, and not just any tokens, tokens that pretty much need a Bolt to kill them. Assuming you've got a Spawning Ground or two, you'll get the 3-4 tokens you need next turn guaranteed.
I think this absolutely a deck that should run 4 Halimar Depths. With >=8 fetchland and Growth Spasm it really helps you quickly sort through the deck and helps avoid drawing the creatures.
I'm a big fan of Halimar, but I'm not a huge fan of having 8 lands that come in to play tapped. I find it really slows down your early game a lot of the time if you keep running into them. I've got them as a two-of at the moment, and I find that's a good number.
So I feel like this is the strongest build so far. With that though, I have to question how strong you feel spell pierce is in the side? I always waver as to whether or not it's good, and I never can really put my finger on if it needs inclusion or not. Not really a strong suggestion, I know, but I do feel like it's your weakest SB slot. Food for thought.
Great build though. =)
Edit:
Also, ya, I totally support the inclusion of fog. Not only that, but you can get beta fogs for like, a dollar?! Pimpness!
Exactly! Fog saves our ass against K-red, which is a common threat, and which against whom we litterally almost will always get stomped sans fog.
1) I think the Blightsteel could be an Iona.
2) I don't think you ever want to side in Fog.
3) I would add 2 more fetchland (any kind will do) instead of 2 basic land.
Other than that, this seems like the best build to me.
1) I agree. Blightsteel is cool, but Iona is just a better morph then a Blightsteel.
2) I think you're wrong Fog saves us against aggro of all kind, dredgevine, K-red... Hell, even a fast starting Caw-Blade.
3) Why? All you're doing is increasing the cost of the deck for a two in twenty-five chance at drawing into land that will help you manafix, when really we've got enough scry, draw, and ramp to make it so we really don't need two superflous fetches.
Seems to me it only delays and eats up valuable card slots that could be getting you closer to going off. I guess it does work well with Awakening Zone though.
Its a pity there isn't a good other way to slow down aggro in U/G, especially when creature cards are ruled out.
That's litterally why it's in here. To delay that one extra turn is often more then enough to turn a loss into a win
Here's the list I came up with. I started with the BoaB list and spruced it up a bit, and made a couple of other modifications based on what I had available.
I found however that I only have 2 Awakening Zones. How important are the full complement of Awakening Zones in this deck? With 4-of Growth Spasm and Spawning Breath if we don't have a T3 Zone, it doesn't seem like it would be that big of a deal, particularly because a T3 Zone interferes with a T3 Spasm... which to me is the more important card to what this deck wants to do. I also had to change the sideboard a bit.
The sideboard (again, I started with the BoaB list) for me was kind of strange. I don't see the point of having a variant creature package for the Mass Polymorph. If you pull off the MP, then it doesn't matter what package you have in there. If you don't pull it off, then the problem is with the fact that you are trying to MP and can't, therefore in that matchup you are probably better off losing the MP package all-together.
I decided to use a transformational SB and turn the deck into kind of a RUG control deck. Essentially go:
-4 Mass Polymorph
-3 Massacre Wurm
-3 Awakening Zone
-4 Spawning Breath
-1 See Beyond
This brings in 15 cards that are all good at controlling the board, and removing the cards from the MP package that won't do much without it. (Just a note, this is based on cards that I have, not cards that would necessarily be best. In the control game, Frost Titan would probably be better than Inferno... but I just don't have them.)
The fattie package doesn't win games instantly. It leaves you vulnerable to a wipe spell the next turn. The Wurmsaphant bomb wins the game on the spot, that's why we rock it
Yeeeaaaah... Why in the name of god would you want less Mass Polys? That's just silly.
That's the reason why I put Gelatinous Genesis as a one-of. Post wipes, it spawns 2-3 tokens at once, and not just any tokens, tokens that pretty much need a Bolt to kill them. Assuming you've got a Spawning Ground or two, you'll get the 3-4 tokens you need next turn guaranteed.
I'm a big fan of Halimar, but I'm not a huge fan of having 8 lands that come in to play tapped. I find it really slows down your early game a lot of the time if you keep running into them. I've got them as a two-of at the moment, and I find that's a good number.
Exactly! Fog saves our ass against K-red, which is a common threat, and which against whom we litterally almost will always get stomped sans fog.
1) I agree. Blightsteel is cool, but Iona is just a better morph then a Blightsteel.
2) I think you're wrong Fog saves us against aggro of all kind, dredgevine, K-red... Hell, even a fast starting Caw-Blade.
3) Why? All you're doing is increasing the cost of the deck for a two in twenty-five chance at drawing into land that will help you manafix, when really we've got enough scry, draw, and ramp to make it so we really don't need two superflous fetches.
The Gelatinous Genesis actually sounds good, probably as a 1-2X in the sideboard. Hm.
You may be right about the 4 Halimar Depths + 4 Khalni Garden slowing down the deck a bit. I might have to trim down Depths to 3 or 2. Testing is required before I say anything definitively one way or the other.
The fetchlands are for the synergy with Halimar Depths and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I feel like the minimal cost involved is worth the potential to make these two cards become much better.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
I'm not having luck finding the awakening zones locally. If I can't trade for them tomorrow, I may use brood birthing in it's place.
Good idea. That will work in place of my 3rd Zone as well.
Based on my SB changes above, I may toy with the mana base to fit another mountain in there (since I'm adding 4 RR spells.) But I don't know if that will weaken the rest of the mana base. I don't think so, but we'll see. Probably +1 Mountain, -1 Island since with the Tarns I can get either one.
Thoughts on using Bestial Menace instead of Gelatinous Genesis? The Menace is more mana-efficient for getting three tokens than the Genesis is, but the tokens are going to be smaller by comparison. Is the guaranteed 3 tokens better than the capability to make more and bigger ones if needed?
The other thing going for Bestial Menace is that it is on curve with Mass Polymorph. If you have already played an Awakening Zone, you should have at least 4 tokens once the Menace resolves, giving you enough "manpower" to morph out a win.
I'm only talking about using it as a one or two-of. I don't think there is any room otherwise for more than that. Thoughts?
Any suggestions for those 3 slots? I think Spell Pierce is kind of good for when you want to protect a Mass Polymorph or win a counterspell war, but those situations may be too infrequent to get enough value out of the Spell Pierces. Maybe something like Into the Roil? It can prevent you from randomly losing to really strange stuff your opponent can throw at you.
I don't know. I haven't given it much thought, honestly. I really just cobbled together the sideboard based on the sideboards of other lists in this thread, assuming that they work. I'd have to actually test matchups against Caw Blade and RUG and UB to see if Spell Pierce is worth the slots.
My gut tells me that they'll be good, because they're probably not going to play around it (this is still a rogue deck, despite being featured on the motherboard, so people won't know what to play around), and you can just take a trip to value town when they tap out for a Jace or something against you.
EDIT: Just thought of something. Opponents may get smart game 2 and just kill off your tokens so you can never MP for more than 1. This could be problematic, since there are really only 12 ways for this deck to make creatures, and only one of them continually makes creatures. Drawing multiples of these 12 isn't hard since there's so much card draw, but things can get dicey if your opponent plays smart and is able to pressure you significantly while killing off your tokens.
I almost feel you might be better off by going:
-3 Spell Pierce
+1 Autumn's Veil
+1 Fog
+1 Flash Freeze
I dunno, I could be wrong through. Dispel would be the best card for counter protection, but Autumn's veil is pretty busted at stopping counters, and flash freeze will really help your game against valakut and other r/g decks.
Thoughts on using Bestial Menace instead of Gelatinous Genesis? The Menace is more mana-efficient for getting three tokens than the Genesis is, but the tokens are going to be smaller by comparison. Is the guaranteed 3 tokens better than the capability to make more and bigger ones if needed?
The other thing going for Bestial Menace is that it is on curve with Mass Polymorph. If you have already played an Awakening Zone, you should have at least 4 tokens once the Menace resolves, giving you enough "manpower" to morph out a win.
I'm only talking about using it as a one or two-of. I don't think there is any room otherwise for more than that. Thoughts?
This is probably very correct. IF you wanted a token sorcery this is leagues better than gelatinous genesis because genesis only outclasses it at 9 mana. Shrinking the guys but saving 2 mana is pretty damn good and saving 2 mana further only gets a 1/1.
How would this deck fare against lightning fast aggro like WW Quest? Or a deck that plays sweepers to murder your tokens? It seems like a terrific idea, but does it really stand up in the meta?
How would this deck fare against lightning fast aggro like WW Quest? Or a deck that plays sweepers to murder your tokens? It seems like a terrific idea, but does it really stand up in the meta?
Sweepers aren't a big issue. Instant speed removal is more annoying by comparison.
This isn't a Tier 1 deck if that's what you're asking. Also it should be said that most decks can't deal with the WW Quest nut-draw, especially game 1. I'd play Ratchet Bombs in the sideboard if you expect it.
You want the elephants to come in before the wurm triggers, so basically, you click the wurms first, they go on the stack first, then you click the terastadons to put their abilities on the stack last. Last in, first out, as the stack goes, and your elephants should come out before the wurm wipe.
This deck is popping up everywhere now. I just played against it on MWS (Lunen's list). It helped that I knew what he was playing turn 2, after a turn 1 Khalni Garden I knew it was either this, or Mono Green Eldrazi. Turn 2 Island and I knew what it was. I was playing my R/W Boros control (the list is in my thread if interested). Basically if you know how to beat it, it's not hard. The player was really quite good though and made game 1 go on forever. He had Spawning Breath for my Hawks when I went to equip them (I think Spawning Breath is a good choice). I just was able to let him build up to about 4 tokens and then DoJ the board... he made a spawn with Awakening Zone, I smashed the Zone with Kor Sanctifiers next turn. He made some more tokens with a Growth Spasm and another Khalni, then I dropped Inferno Titan and reset his tokens again. Next turn he casts Mass Poly for one off a just dropped Khalni, flips up T-Don and eats two of his lands and my Sword of Feast and Famine. I attack with Titan and elephant, kill his token with titan, he blocks with T-Don and I pump enough to trade, his other elephant kills my elephant but after that it was pretty much gg.
I almost want to see some Elixir of Immortality to give this deck some resilience....either that or an Eldrazi (though that makes Mass Poly a bit trickier) in case of a random Sword of Body and Mind hit. A resolved Cunning Sparkmage is pretty bad news for this deck too. And yes, sweepers are an issue. The great thing about it though is it FEELS like a combo deck with all the library manipulating, and I had the real impression that the doomsday clock was ticking down....great deck and I'd love to see it become competetive!!
Elixir isn't a bad option... having your big guys all milled out basically ruins your entire day. I'm trying to come up with some alternate win conditions, back ups if you will... Red Sun's Zenith was one... being able to ramp quickly and then sack a ton of tokens for a big zenith to the face isn't a bad plan.
Also thought about Beastmaster Ascension for the sideboard, let the tokens turn into serious threats.
Here's something to play around with too.... Brood Birthing. If you can ramp up enough (and you can), you can protect your combo with Brood Birthing followed by Mass Poly in one shot.
Naturalize is for Swords and Quest, the only real problem I seemed to have yesterday. The mana base is the biggest change, trying to find the right balance of fetchlands and basic lands.
So I feel like this is the strongest build so far. With that though, I have to question how strong you feel spell pierce is in the side? I always waver as to whether or not it's good, and I never can really put my finger on if it needs inclusion or not. Not really a strong suggestion, I know, but I do feel like it's your weakest SB slot. Food for thought.
Great build though. =)
Edit:
Also, ya, I totally support the inclusion of fog. Not only that, but you can get beta fogs for like, a dollar?! Pimpness!
Any suggestions for those 3 slots? I think Spell Pierce is kind of good for when you want to protect a Mass Polymorph or win a counterspell war, but those situations may be too infrequent to get enough value out of the Spell Pierces. Maybe something like Into the Roil? It can prevent you from randomly losing to really strange stuff your opponent can throw at you.
I don't know. I haven't given it much thought, honestly. I really just cobbled together the sideboard based on the sideboards of other lists in this thread, assuming that they work. I'd have to actually test matchups against Caw Blade and RUG and UB to see if Spell Pierce is worth the slots.
My gut tells me that they'll be good, because they're probably not going to play around it (this is still a rogue deck, despite being featured on the motherboard, so people won't know what to play around), and you can just take a trip to value town when they tap out for a Jace or something against you.
EDIT: Just thought of something. Opponents may get smart game 2 and just kill off your tokens so you can never MP for more than 1. This could be problematic, since there are really only 12 ways for this deck to make creatures, and only one of them continually makes creatures. Drawing multiples of these 12 isn't hard since there's so much card draw, but things can get dicey if your opponent plays smart and is able to pressure you significantly while killing off your tokens.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
no... in a deck like this dropping to 2 of the win condition would be stupid it is an auto 4 of
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Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Seems to me it only delays and eats up valuable card slots that could be getting you closer to going off. I guess it does work well with Awakening Zone though.
Its a pity there isn't a good other way to slow down aggro in U/G, especially when creature cards are ruled out.
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Reki, the History of Kamigawa (MTGO)
Lavinia of the Tenth (MTGO)
I will keep saying it as often as I have to,
The fattie package doesn't win games instantly. It leaves you vulnerable to a wipe spell the next turn. The Wurmsaphant bomb wins the game on the spot, that's why we rock it
Yeeeaaaah... Why in the name of god would you want less Mass Polys? That's just silly.
That's the reason why I put Gelatinous Genesis as a one-of. Post wipes, it spawns 2-3 tokens at once, and not just any tokens, tokens that pretty much need a Bolt to kill them. Assuming you've got a Spawning Ground or two, you'll get the 3-4 tokens you need next turn guaranteed.
I'm a big fan of Halimar, but I'm not a huge fan of having 8 lands that come in to play tapped. I find it really slows down your early game a lot of the time if you keep running into them. I've got them as a two-of at the moment, and I find that's a good number.
Exactly! Fog saves our ass against K-red, which is a common threat, and which against whom we litterally almost will always get stomped sans fog.
1) I agree. Blightsteel is cool, but Iona is just a better morph then a Blightsteel.
2) I think you're wrong Fog saves us against aggro of all kind, dredgevine, K-red... Hell, even a fast starting Caw-Blade.
3) Why? All you're doing is increasing the cost of the deck for a two in twenty-five chance at drawing into land that will help you manafix, when really we've got enough scry, draw, and ramp to make it so we really don't need two superflous fetches.
That's litterally why it's in here. To delay that one extra turn is often more then enough to turn a loss into a win
Former ">Izzet Acolyte of Chronomancy.
Proud Creator of MassacreMorph, a.k.a., LOLAPHANT
5 Forest
6 Island
4 Khalni Garden
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Terramorphic Expanse
Spells
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Preordain
4 Explore
4 See Beyond
4 Spawning Breath
3 Awakening Zone
4 Growth Spasm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Mass Polymorph
3 Massacre Wurm
1 Terastodon
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Slagstorm
2 Inferno Titan
4 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Leak
1 Terastadon
I found however that I only have 2 Awakening Zones. How important are the full complement of Awakening Zones in this deck? With 4-of Growth Spasm and Spawning Breath if we don't have a T3 Zone, it doesn't seem like it would be that big of a deal, particularly because a T3 Zone interferes with a T3 Spasm... which to me is the more important card to what this deck wants to do. I also had to change the sideboard a bit.
The sideboard (again, I started with the BoaB list) for me was kind of strange. I don't see the point of having a variant creature package for the Mass Polymorph. If you pull off the MP, then it doesn't matter what package you have in there. If you don't pull it off, then the problem is with the fact that you are trying to MP and can't, therefore in that matchup you are probably better off losing the MP package all-together.
I decided to use a transformational SB and turn the deck into kind of a RUG control deck. Essentially go:
-4 Mass Polymorph
-3 Massacre Wurm
-3 Awakening Zone
-4 Spawning Breath
-1 See Beyond
+2 Lightning Bolt
+2 Slagstorm
+2 Inferno Titan
+4 Spell Pierce
+4 Mana Leak
+1 Terastadon
This brings in 15 cards that are all good at controlling the board, and removing the cards from the MP package that won't do much without it. (Just a note, this is based on cards that I have, not cards that would necessarily be best. In the control game, Frost Titan would probably be better than Inferno... but I just don't have them.)
Thoughts?
The Gelatinous Genesis actually sounds good, probably as a 1-2X in the sideboard. Hm.
You may be right about the 4 Halimar Depths + 4 Khalni Garden slowing down the deck a bit. I might have to trim down Depths to 3 or 2. Testing is required before I say anything definitively one way or the other.
The fetchlands are for the synergy with Halimar Depths and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I feel like the minimal cost involved is worth the potential to make these two cards become much better.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Reki, the History of Kamigawa (MTGO)
Lavinia of the Tenth (MTGO)
Good idea. That will work in place of my 3rd Zone as well.
Based on my SB changes above, I may toy with the mana base to fit another mountain in there (since I'm adding 4 RR spells.) But I don't know if that will weaken the rest of the mana base. I don't think so, but we'll see. Probably +1 Mountain, -1 Island since with the Tarns I can get either one.
The other thing going for Bestial Menace is that it is on curve with Mass Polymorph. If you have already played an Awakening Zone, you should have at least 4 tokens once the Menace resolves, giving you enough "manpower" to morph out a win.
I'm only talking about using it as a one or two-of. I don't think there is any room otherwise for more than that. Thoughts?
I almost feel you might be better off by going:
-3 Spell Pierce
+1 Autumn's Veil
+1 Fog
+1 Flash Freeze
I dunno, I could be wrong through. Dispel would be the best card for counter protection, but Autumn's veil is pretty busted at stopping counters, and flash freeze will really help your game against valakut and other r/g decks.
This is probably very correct. IF you wanted a token sorcery this is leagues better than gelatinous genesis because genesis only outclasses it at 9 mana. Shrinking the guys but saving 2 mana is pretty damn good and saving 2 mana further only gets a 1/1.
Thanks spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
Member of Team Revolution
Sweepers aren't a big issue. Instant speed removal is more annoying by comparison.
This isn't a Tier 1 deck if that's what you're asking. Also it should be said that most decks can't deal with the WW Quest nut-draw, especially game 1. I'd play Ratchet Bombs in the sideboard if you expect it.
I almost want to see some Elixir of Immortality to give this deck some resilience....either that or an Eldrazi (though that makes Mass Poly a bit trickier) in case of a random Sword of Body and Mind hit. A resolved Cunning Sparkmage is pretty bad news for this deck too. And yes, sweepers are an issue. The great thing about it though is it FEELS like a combo deck with all the library manipulating, and I had the real impression that the doomsday clock was ticking down....great deck and I'd love to see it become competetive!!
Also thought about Beastmaster Ascension for the sideboard, let the tokens turn into serious threats.
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Reki, the History of Kamigawa (MTGO)
Lavinia of the Tenth (MTGO)
Yo dawg, I heard you like MTG so we put a game into your game so you can play MTG while you play MTG
monument would be better as it could easily transform into a swarm build
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Here is the decklist that I'm working towards:
1x Terestodon
3x Massacre Wurm
RAMP: 8
4x Explore
4x Growth Spasm
INSTANT: 8
2x Lightning Bolt
4x Spawning Breath
2x Naturalize
CARD DRAW: 8
4x See Beyond
4x Preordain
4x Mass Polymorph
4x Awakening Zone
LAND: 24
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Khalni Forest
6x Island
4x Mountain
5x Forest
2x Naturalize
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Stormtide Leviathan
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x Platinum Emperion
4x Spell Pierce
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Fog
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
Naturalize is for Swords and Quest, the only real problem I seemed to have yesterday. The mana base is the biggest change, trying to find the right balance of fetchlands and basic lands.
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Reki, the History of Kamigawa (MTGO)
Lavinia of the Tenth (MTGO)