I noticed in your earlier builds you had Venerated Teacher. Did it not perform as well as you'd like? I must have missed why you cut it if you did. It seems like it would be extremely helpful with all the level up guys your playing.
It was good on paper but in practice didn't do enough to validate it's presence, it improved board position, but again it only really rewarded over-extending, and at best/earliest it got my enclave to level 2 and same with my coral helm, which is a 4 mana investment without a 3rd card taking the place of the Grand Architect 3cc spot. I opted that if I was going to play anything else at 3cc it would either be a card that would dig for my Architect, or one that could conceivably give me another way of getting my beasts on the table, such as Trinket Mage.
I like your build Dm225, I think it needs a little bit more card drawing to be completely effective though, your build looks like it's also begging for an Argent Sphinx and some Stoic Rebuttals. I think 18 main board artifacts is enough to ensure Metalcraft often enough to make Argent Sphinx relevant, same with riddlesmith and mox opal.
I'd probably go
-4 Aether Adept
-3 Islands
-1 Mox Opal
-2 Steel Hellkite
+3 Argent Sphinx
+4 Preordain
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+1 Chimeric Mass
My list if it helps at all for consideration. I havent tried anything with slaver lock. It's purely, as the thread name suggests/asks for, Architect Blue Beatdown. Aggro/midrange.
Steel Hellkite is amazing to drop T3, when it happens. Argent Sphinx is easily one of the best blue creatures I've ever played.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I'm slightly concerned about the general lack of spot removal in this deck. Granted, I have yet to properly test out the deck (I'm strictly a Magic Online player) but, what does this deck do against swarm tactics like Elf decks or Fauna decks where their creatures will be better on a 1-1 basis?
I'm slightly concerned about the general lack of spot removal in this deck. Granted, I have yet to properly test out the deck (I'm strictly a Magic Online player) but, what does this deck do against swarm tactics like Elf decks or Fauna decks where their creatures will be better on a 1-1 basis?
I've tested against the former. When you get a beater in the air before they get monument online, you do well (hellkite is a targeted board wipe with an architect out). When you don't, you either hit the counter or miss it and they stick the monument. Then you sit there awkwardly while they go through the motions of effecting their flying, trampling, elf based alpha strike.
I think the generally weak main-board removal sported by elfdrazi makes it a favorable match-up for us.
thrumming bird is an mvp currently as one of my favorite plays is turn 2 bird turn 3 chalice, hit, proliferate chalice play trinket mage for a chalice, it ramps me up to enough mana i can play All is dust next turn if i need to, or I can drop a chalice next turn before attacks and just get silly mana for a chimeric mass later on.
I tested against the beta version of a naya colored agro deck today and in the games we played sentinel was great at keeping me alive against collar+sparkmage or inferno titan
also played against U/W mimic vat, IF i can keep a vat from coming down It is a fairly easy match up, otherwise I need to get a Chimeric for 10 on turn 5.
I plan to remove the elixir and one negate for two jace beleran as the elixir is usually just left there sitting most games.
Not sure if mentioned yet, but Twisted Image is *great* at killing Ornithopters, Walls of Omen, Overgrown Battlements, and opposing Hatchlings, and Cryptologists, if needed. Plus, it cantrips. Sure, it's narrow, but it's an option to keep in mind for a mono-U deck in the right meta.
Nice catch JNes, I had forgotten that card even existed lol. I guess in a heavy U/W meta it would be ballz nutz good, I just fear that the new meta is mostly going to compromise of ramp decks and aggro strategies with a handful of devouted U/W control players.
I argue that to be maximally effective our dumpy one and two drops need to be threats in their own right so that in the event our cheaty-bombs get answered we can still beat face with our board. The only exception to this is when we can use a guy to dig.
1 drops:
These are the one drops available in blue right now.
I don't think most versions of this deck will run Hedron Crab because we don't mill. It won't run Vedalken Certarch because we don't really want to spend time hitting metalcraft.
Popular choices so far seem to be Enclave Cryptologist and Skywatcher Adept. I don't think I would want to run skywatcher adept alongside coral helm commander because their roles overlap a lot and the 2-drop is basically just better. Kraken Hatchling shows up on a number of lists and is desirable because he is fat and cheap. It has been pointed out that he is good against aggro-heavy metas.
Cosi's trickster isn't too popular because it's situational. It can be explosive, but it can also be a dork. Some people like it for use against a control-heavy, combo-y meta.
I don't think there has been a lot of talk about either caller of gales or merfolk spy. The former could be good if you play lots of big ground pounders as your artifact bombs (like wurmcoil engine, masticore, or maybe even darksteel golem). The latter has merit in a fish deck because it is potentially evasive and can help shine some light on when to hold a mana leak/negate. If you are running fish, his ability might prove redundant with merfolk sovereigns or you may find yourself pressured to run spreading seas.
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Augury Owl is almost a must-play because he is a guy and he digs for missing pieces, and he evades, and with Grand Architect out he beats.
Popular guys include coralhelm commander because he can sneak in early and get big and evasive later for beating on control. If you aren't playing fish, Hada Spy Patrol is a good analogue and might actually be better in some cases. Thrummingbird is on a lot of lists because he proliferates to put counters on Jace and Chimeric Mass, but I think his value is undercut by his small body and reliance on other cards. In a control build this might be worth it, but aggro needs cards that do something on their own.
Renegade doppelganger shows up on a lot of lists but the goal should be to drop stuff by tapping blue guys so his ability may often be wasted. He is a viable option as he makes late game plays potentially devastating, but there are better guys.
Playing Riddlesmith is probably not a good call in aggro because we won't be playing chumpy artifacts. If you are playing a control-oriented deck with a trinket-mage package he might be a good way to filter cards and set up a mid-game mindslaver combo or dig up a missing piece to play a big guy.
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We have a lot of three-drop options, but most of them are chaff.
Grand Architect is obviously a must-include. For Fish builds Merfolk Sovereign is also at least a three-of. Control builds should seriously think about Aether Adept. Everyone should think about Seagate Oracle.
Trinket Mage is interesting card advantage for control and gives them a toolbox of sorts. Aggro shouldn't clutter their draws with the 0 and 1 drops needed to make him worthwhile.
Thada Adel works great and is potentially main-deck stuff (depending on how much artifact is going to show up in the next week or two). Again you'll be pressured to run Sovereign and/or spreading seas with this card as with Merfolk Spy. She works really well with basically every component of the deck, though, so think about her.
I haven't seen much talk about Wall of Frost, Dormant Gomozoa, or Calcite snapper. Any of these might work well for control and calcite snapper could work for aggro.
Four Drops are probably Jace, the wallet emptier. He is a known commodity and an obvious three-of for any control deck ever. Aggro may not want to play him... but probably aggro wants to play him as a two-of just for repeatable brainstorm and the psuedo fog effect he represents. With this exception, I don't like four-drops that aren't bomby artifacts I can cheat out (masticore).
Lots of mid range and control version list the new sphinx. I really don't think this deck wants to play with metalcraft.
Big Artifacts
The magic number is six. That's what we can pay on turn three, three whole turns earlier than we ought to be able. If you miss turn three you'll probably get a shot at a seven-drop, but I don't think it's good to fill our precious bomb-slots with something that might be too expensive for us to make the most devastating play this deck can pull off short of a mind slaver lock.
Molten-Tail Masticore is really great because you can drop him for four if you miss a guy or play him for "six" and he is removal resistant. This is an important trait and the main reason I argue for a wurmcoil engine in the bomb slot. On turn three he takes over the game because even if they answer it you're still way ahead of the curve with your two guys. Hellkite is playable because his X ability is especially significant on turn four when the board is full of chumps and maybe one threat. Also he flies and that counts for a lot.
I don't like Lodestone Golem because this plays a lot of not-artifact spells and he has kinda' a small body on him for his four mana cost
I think this deck needs to be tested with Caller of Gales. I'd also like to try some mid-cost equipment like Sword of Body and Mind and Strata Scythe.
Pretty much everything I've thought of about the deck, I wanted to play Augury owls in my build but I really enjoy the presence of Lighthouse Chronologist in my mainboard for some interesting pressure situations.
(man, I hate it when you work really hard on a post and it's the last one on a page...)
Do you find that he has a significant enough impact on the board?
I guess he's a good-sized body for his cost and because he hammers out mana it's ok to play him as a dork in most circumstances. I could see him as an analogue for coralhelm commander insofar as they both sneak onto the board early and scream "answer me!" a few turns later if your opponent blasts your metal dudes.
Coralhelm commander does the same thing faster and for less mana, though, and he gets pumped by and pumps other merfolk. Those guys make up all the best guys for this deck.
I just think that it's spot on to say that every creature in your deck needs to be a respectable threat in their own right. Any of the levelers, left unchecked, should and will wreak havoc on your opponents game plan, even Enclave Cryptologist has a staggering effect when you get her to level 3 and you're just drawing 2 cards a turn, just cause.
I just played this deck on MWS a few times, my win ration is really high, I've only lost once to a janky mono-black lich deck and even had the joy of playing a Mirror match(!).
So far, there isn't a card from my main list I'd think of cutting at all.
Kraken Hatchlings were removed from the sideboard because they are mostly unnecessary, the deck already has a very solid game against aggro before them and over kills the match up with them. Those 4 slots that were being taken up can be used for the last 2 Molten-Tails and 2 Eldrazi Monuments in the board, JIC you go up against U/W or some other attrition deck types.
Unified Will goes up against control with light creatures, Mindslaver is tech versus the Valakut Matchup (think about why this is awesome and you'll see why it's here) the last 2 Lighthouse for U/W, Aether Adepts for mid-range aggro strategies and Steel Hellkite for swarm strategies.
Even under the best circumstances, Thrumming Bird encourages over-extending and even then, you can use the mana you spent on the Bird to simply level the creature up instead. The only other applicable targets are Everflowing Chalice, Ratchet Bomb and Jace, The Mind Sculptor.
In a few of my earlier builds I attempted to use Trinket Mage and a toolbox of goodies to activate Grand Architect, as well as give me access to Argent Sphinx, In that build I feel that Thrumming Bird has a place but even then you'd have to do quite a bit of extensive testing to see if it's a worthy build compared to the leveler build that I currently have adopted.
The issue was stability, trying to find a balance between Artifacts, creatures, argent sphinx and ramping while making the deck stable was damn near impossible.
Yes, the thought was that the Thrummingbird was a nice way to take advantage of the trinketmage/toolbox, ie chalice and Chimeric Mass. It strikes me that Mass is a good card against W control and days. The number of charge counters can get up very quickly.
I am a bit confused as to why turn 2 Thrumming bird, Turn 3 CC is a bad play? TB on Turn 2. Cast CC, with a 3rd land, level CC up once, then attack with bird, which then gives the CC a second counter. This allows turn 4 for Architect, which can result in any of the 6 cc creatures, OR a beatdown with 2/2 birds and a 4/4 CC.
I just think that it's spot on to say that every creature in your deck needs to be a respectable threat in their own right. Any of the levelers, left unchecked, should and will wreak havoc on your opponents game plan, even Enclave Cryptologist has a staggering effect when you get her to level 3 and you're just drawing 2 cards a turn, just cause.
I just played this deck on MWS a few times, my win ration is really high, I've only lost once to a janky mono-black lich deck and even had the joy of playing a Mirror match(!).
So far, there isn't a card from my main list I'd think of cutting at all.
Kraken Hatchlings were removed from the sideboard because they are mostly unnecessary, the deck already has a very solid game against aggro before them and over kills the match up with them. Those 4 slots that were being taken up can be used for the last 2 Molten-Tails and 2 Eldrazi Monuments in the board, JIC you go up against U/W or some other attrition deck types.
Unified Will goes up against control with light creatures, Mindslaver is tech versus the Valakut Matchup (think about why this is awesome and you'll see why it's here) the last 2 Lighthouse for U/W, Aether Adepts for mid-range aggro strategies and Steel Hellkite for swarm strategies.
I am not at all happy with your curve. You wanna increase the chances of playing T3 Wormcoil as much as possible. That card is rediculous. Even without that, your curve is far from beatdown. As it stands now you are very rarely going to hit a drop every turn.
Im not sure what Lighthouse Chronologist's roll is. At all. Into the roil is not a answer. And Sea gate oracle is good for being a two for 1. Not for being a incredibly sub par beater. You have Jace without sac lands that wouldn't hurt you at all. You have Tectonic Edge in a deck that doesn't need to worry about even Valakut. When is Eldrazi monument ever going to be relevant for you? Coralhelm with 4 other merfolk... etc. You are spread out all over the place.
Your essentially running a very bad midrangy type deck.
I am more concerned with the idea that you only have 4 1 drop blues. Do you find yourself having too many beaters in your hand and stalling out early?
Well if you didnt noticed i have a bit of ramp in the form of artifacts available to me. Grand architect is only 4 of in this deck; that's what i think you should adhere to. Having so many bad 1 drops wont help you at all if you dont draw the architect. it's exactly the same issue with 1 drops and demon of death's gate. The theoretical idea of having a ton of weenies with the '4 of' looked good on paper but is far from consistent.
If i draw the vedalken certarch's, i draw them. If i dont, I dont. the deck isnt hurt by it at all.
On another note, I edited my list. Trinket Mage is indeed too useful to disregard:
Was playing the old list VS U/W control. The CA they Generated outright shut my gameplay down entirely. Hopefully this list has enough to compete with it somewhat.
Edit: Nim Deathmantle actually looks pretty damn good next to an architect...
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I am definitely curious to see how the deathmantle works. it does look like it can be extremely strong against anyone trying to run DoJ.
I still consistently see lists with Mana Leaks, and i have to wonder if that is just a force of habit when running blue. When running decks with a lot of 1 drops, 2 drops, 4 drops, i just don't see when Mana leak is going to be that key.
I also wonder about the argent. He is a decently sized body at 4/3, but he is also just dying to be bolted, and metalcraft, at least with these lists doesn't seem very viable. And at 4 mana that can't be ramped up by GA, he seems to be slow in this meta.
Against aggro decks, we are trying to race them, against ramp decks, the Leak is only going to be useful for turns 1-4, and i can't see us getting into a control war with blue.
I think Mindslaver is also being undercounted here. A turn 3 casted Mindslaver is rough enough, but a turn 5 cast and used Mindslaver is likely game versus a large number of decks.
@Vexed
I think I may have been vague. I do understand that with GA only being a 4 of, and our card drawing limited, we can't rely on it by turn 3/4 every time. But i think it is fair to say that the 1 drop blue cards should serve an independent purpose. I tend to agree about cutting hatchlings, but I think using cryptologists are nice as they help dig out an architect.
But my concern actually is that you have
8 cards with 5CC or higher
and your equipment require 6 mana to cast and equip on the same turn. Which means you have 10 cards that can't be used without GA until turn 5 at the earliest.
Without GA, my thought was that you may draw into very slow hands which can kill us.
As for the comparison to Death's gate, it isn't really Apt. Death's gate is a terrible card advantage card. Saccing 4 cards for one, better make it a game winner right away, and he just doesn't. GA doesn't require you to lose any card advantage, more that he is an enabler for the deck and adds a TON of speed. The deck should be able to limp out to a win even without getting GA out on the board. An early flier, coupled with a chalice and a turn 5 Wurmcoil may win the odd game or two.
Anyhow, i am very curious to see how this plays out. GA is an explosive card and i like the fact that there appears to be many ways into this.
Nebulagold - I took your earlier list out for a spin last night against Bu Lich/Mimic Vat and G Elfdrazi and it did fairly well. My main issues were the lack of removal and the Chronologist.
During the early turns, if everything went well, I would be tapped out so I may remove the mana leaks altogether. I also felt something decent needed to be in the 4 drop slot because a lot of games I would only have the Architect and a Coralhelm Commander on the field.
I like the updates you made to the list but I am not sure about the Masticore, his upkeep cost hurts a lot if we don't have a leveled up Cryptologist. Would Lodestone Golem be decent in here since we are trying to play a lot of artifacts?
I am not at all happy with your curve. You wanna increase the chances of playing T3 Wormcoil as much as possible. That card is rediculous. Even without that, your curve is far from beatdown. As it stands now you are very rarely going to hit a drop every turn.
Im not sure what Lighthouse Chronologist's roll is. At all. Into the roil is not a answer. And Sea gate oracle is good for being a two for 1. Not for being a incredibly sub par beater. You have Jace without sac lands that wouldn't hurt you at all. You have Tectonic Edge in a deck that doesn't need to worry about even Valakut. When is Eldrazi monument ever going to be relevant for you? Coralhelm with 4 other merfolk... etc. You are spread out all over the place.
Your essentially running a very bad midrangy type deck.
Originally it was all about running turn 3 Wurmcoil out as frequently as possible, and when you load your deck up with more inconsequential 1 drops and 2 drops to ensure that the curve is always hit, you lose the ability to manage a game when you don't hit it. The deck needs to be able to run with or without Grand Architect and with or without Wurmcoil Engine and still be capable of getting the "god draw". Coralhelm Commander is an efficient beater at 2cc, Enclave Cryptologist is for dig and not cause she's a merfolk, but being merfolk does allow her to benefit from the commander every so often. Lighthouse Chronologist is a brick house who can set up potentially devastating scenarios if he's left unchecked, 2 turns every turn and having a 3/5 body is very relevant in a standard dominated by 4/3 haste creatures in creature removal light decks. There aren't any other really aggressive/powerful 1/2 cc creatures that truly lend themselves to the ultimate goal of the deck.
Eldrazi Monument is just a meta choice, as it can single-handedly win a game for you when resolved against certain match ups, otherwise it's a perfectly good blank to chuck away to an Enclave. Tectonic Edge isn't for Valakut, it's actually for U/W control and their non-basics to slow their game down and buy you time to find/level up threats against them, forcing them into really bad decisions which you can exploit.
And I completely agree with you on the fetch lands, I just didn't think of it up until now.
I am just wondering how disruptive he is to the meta.
Against Titan/Valakut he does slow down their ramping, especially without RG anymore, they are relying more on cultivate, though i have to wonder whether by turn 4 if they are already able to ignore lodestone.
I see it shutting down poison by a lot. Most of their key creatures are >=3cc, and their tricks suddenly become much more expensive.
It definitely slows down control and red deck wins could very much be hurt.
I am definitely curious to see how the deathmantle works. it does look like it can be extremely strong against anyone trying to run DoJ.
I still consistently see lists with Mana Leaks, and i have to wonder if that is just a force of habit when running blue. When running decks with a lot of 1 drops, 2 drops, 4 drops, i just don't see when Mana leak is going to be that key.
I also wonder about the argent. He is a decently sized body at 4/3, but he is also just dying to be bolted, and metalcraft, at least with these lists doesn't seem very viable. And at 4 mana that can't be ramped up by GA, he seems to be slow in this meta.
Against aggro decks, we are trying to race them, against ramp decks, the Leak is only going to be useful for turns 1-4, and i can't see us getting into a control war with blue.
I think Mindslaver is also being undercounted here. A turn 3 casted Mindslaver is rough enough, but a turn 5 cast and used Mindslaver is likely game versus a large number of decks.
@Vexed
I think I may have been vague. I do understand that with GA only being a 4 of, and our card drawing limited, we can't rely on it by turn 3/4 every time. But i think it is fair to say that the 1 drop blue cards should serve an independent purpose. I tend to agree about cutting hatchlings, but I think using cryptologists are nice as they help dig out an architect.
But my concern actually is that you have
8 cards with 5CC or higher
and your equipment require 6 mana to cast and equip on the same turn. Which means you have 10 cards that can't be used without GA until turn 5 at the earliest.
Without GA, my thought was that you may draw into very slow hands which can kill us.
As for the comparison to Death's gate, it isn't really Apt. Death's gate is a terrible card advantage card. Saccing 4 cards for one, better make it a game winner right away, and he just doesn't. GA doesn't require you to lose any card advantage, more that he is an enabler for the deck and adds a TON of speed. The deck should be able to limp out to a win even without getting GA out on the board. An early flier, coupled with a chalice and a turn 5 Wurmcoil may win the odd game or two.
Anyhow, i am very curious to see how this plays out. GA is an explosive card and i like the fact that there appears to be many ways into this.
...? I only see 4. =|
And you have severely underestimated the strength of Argent Sphinx. Have you tried it yet? Metalcraft is far from an issue with cards like trinket mage available.
I just had a rematch with that U/W list i got CA'd by, Very good game. Jace digging for artis and then two sphinxes won me the game both times. g1, first error admittedly by my opp was letting grand architect survive a turn. kicked one chalice for 3 counters, nulled his mana leaks. G2 i think the opp went for a bounce tapout removal route or whatever. 3 for 1'd by Doj, but trinket mage gave me 6 counter mass to beat with so i didnt mind. i played jace the turn after, dug up some brittle effigies, Never used them not once oddly enough, dropped two argents and cleaned up. he had a ratchet bomb t2 so i stalled on dropping arti's till it was 2 counters. (i think he intended to blow up any architect i decided to play, but after Doj he used it on my Jace. =[ Already milked the hell out jace, but gg though.)
Steel Hellkite is an insane threat, so insane it's always seems to be answered before i can do anything with it... =[ most it's been good for is 6cmc eat a removal so chimeric mass can go for a swing... sigh. I mean overall its worthi it i guess, if it wins me the game but bleh.
Umm, +1 JtMs -1 Chimeric Mass. Jace is always good to have around. Extra Mass tend to feel... extra.
Why do members often misunderstand the objective of my posts. I brought up DoDg not to compared the two cards, but to compare deck building errors. DoDg.dec failed because its focus was to have an excessive number of one drops available so when Dodg was drawn, it could make the most of it. How is that any different from what you're insinuating? Enclave Cryptologist looks no better than a Viscera Seer to me. Worse even IMO.
I've been seeing more mature lists using DoDG recently and they stopped trying to make a DoDG.dec and worked on a suicide list instead. DoDg out of the sb against certain matchups. I dont know the list, but it seems the only 1 drop was mortician beetle.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
Sphinx is 5 cc? Not every color plays Lightning bolt man. You cant say theoretically 5cmc.
And You are right about play testing.
5 cmc is insignificant with a deck that runs 24-27 lands, and 8 'ramp' cards. by t3 i tend to blow pass five and have 7 mana available to me t4. The cost of these cards have never dawned on or hindered me.
As a matter of fact, As I've mentioned before, the issue is mostly with drawing the threats, not playing them.
Lodestone is a good one trick pony that only works in multiples and begs for a bit of over extension. Just to put it out there. i had 4 lode's before i put trinket in. It's nice at T3 to drop, but once its answered, There's a lack of satisfaction felt from playing it.
Contagion Engine is definitely a winmore, and an opt out if my Argent Sphinxes cant protect me. <--- Note, I've played games wishing i had a voltaic key around because I would have mana available to activate it twice. I've only actually ever drawn into Engine 3-4 times.
I already mentioned. Masses are great, just not too many, becomes winmore also.
Wurmcoil... Is a bit overhyped to me.
A played a mirror match, I shouldn't say mirror because they played counters and wurmcoil off an architect engine, I ramp my hellkite out earlier than than he could ramp out wurmcoil. aside from that, giving me the lead, I destroyed it off the swing, ate 3 from a token, blocked one with a martyred sphinx, swung popped everything for 0 taking chalices, tokens, and a mass. Dude scooped there. Even if he had gotten his wurmcoil out first, it's lack of evasion and what it does post summoning sickness is subpar to me from what hellkite is capable of.
^^ Preference. I can drop distort strike on hellkite and still kill bsa on the swing, wurmcoil just nets some life i really dont need often times. I'm speaking through my personal experience though. The hivemind will still play Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine because they 'look' good in a vacuum.
IMO Frost Titan is better than Wurmcoil simply because there are far more shenanigans available with frost than engine, E.G. Mimic Vat, Venser, the Sojourner.
If there's anything in the deck I'm not satisfied with in my list atm it's the certarch's. Wish there were better one drops that didnt demand the mana investment to be decent.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I really like Nim Deathmantle in this deck, it's so good... so good that it gets around Molten-Tail Masticore's upkeep cost if you have enough mana....
Vexed, have you tried out one of my later builds at all? How would you say they play out to you?
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4 Mox Opal
Creatures
4 Aether Adept
4 Grand Architect
4 Memnite
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Ornithopter
4 Riddle Smith
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Trinket Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
26 Island
Experimental Kraj
It was good on paper but in practice didn't do enough to validate it's presence, it improved board position, but again it only really rewarded over-extending, and at best/earliest it got my enclave to level 2 and same with my coral helm, which is a 4 mana investment without a 3rd card taking the place of the Grand Architect 3cc spot. I opted that if I was going to play anything else at 3cc it would either be a card that would dig for my Architect, or one that could conceivably give me another way of getting my beasts on the table, such as Trinket Mage.
I like your build Dm225, I think it needs a little bit more card drawing to be completely effective though, your build looks like it's also begging for an Argent Sphinx and some Stoic Rebuttals. I think 18 main board artifacts is enough to ensure Metalcraft often enough to make Argent Sphinx relevant, same with riddlesmith and mox opal.
I'd probably go
-4 Aether Adept
-3 Islands
-1 Mox Opal
-2 Steel Hellkite
+3 Argent Sphinx
+4 Preordain
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+1 Chimeric Mass
And so long as you're playing Trinket Mage you probably want to find space for some singleton silver bullets, Brittle Effigy, Chimeric Mass and Everflowing Chalice all have their place alongside Trinket Mage.
Preordain and Riddlesmith should be enough to get you Grand Architect and enough lands to run out most of your 3-4 drops.
3 Dread Statuary
14 Island
4 Halimar Depths
3 Mystifying Maze
Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Grand Architect
4 Argent Sphinx
4 Vedalken Certarch
4 Distortion Strike
3 Brittle Effigy
2 Mox Opal
3 Everflowing Chalice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Contagion Engine
3 Chimeric Mass
1 Brittle Effigy
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Dispel
3 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
4 Stoic Rebuttal
My list if it helps at all for consideration. I havent tried anything with slaver lock. It's purely, as the thread name suggests/asks for, Architect Blue Beatdown. Aggro/midrange.
Steel Hellkite is amazing to drop T3, when it happens. Argent Sphinx is easily one of the best blue creatures I've ever played.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I've tested against the former. When you get a beater in the air before they get monument online, you do well (hellkite is a targeted board wipe with an architect out). When you don't, you either hit the counter or miss it and they stick the monument. Then you sit there awkwardly while they go through the motions of effecting their flying, trampling, elf based alpha strike.
I think the generally weak main-board removal sported by elfdrazi makes it a favorable match-up for us.
I dunno' 'bout no Fauna Shaman.
4 grand architect
4 trinket mage
2 thrumming bird
2 wurmcoil engine
2 darksteel sentinel
tutorable
4 everflowing chalice
2 brittle effigy
1 darksteel axe
1 basilisk's collar
1 chimeric mass
1 elixir of immortality
3 jace the mind sculptor
instant/sorcery
2 all is dust
3 negate
4 mana leak
lands
4 glimmerpost
2 halimar depths
2 tectonic edge
16 island
thrumming bird is an mvp currently as one of my favorite plays is turn 2 bird turn 3 chalice, hit, proliferate chalice play trinket mage for a chalice, it ramps me up to enough mana i can play All is dust next turn if i need to, or I can drop a chalice next turn before attacks and just get silly mana for a chimeric mass later on.
I tested against the beta version of a naya colored agro deck today and in the games we played sentinel was great at keeping me alive against collar+sparkmage or inferno titan
also played against U/W mimic vat, IF i can keep a vat from coming down It is a fairly easy match up, otherwise I need to get a Chimeric for 10 on turn 5.
I plan to remove the elixir and one negate for two jace beleran as the elixir is usually just left there sitting most games.
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4 Augury Owl
4 other two drops
4 grand architect
12 support
I argue that to be maximally effective our dumpy one and two drops need to be threats in their own right so that in the event our cheaty-bombs get answered we can still beat face with our board. The only exception to this is when we can use a guy to dig.
1 drops:
These are the one drops available in blue right now.
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I don't think most versions of this deck will run Hedron Crab because we don't mill. It won't run Vedalken Certarch because we don't really want to spend time hitting metalcraft.
Popular choices so far seem to be Enclave Cryptologist and Skywatcher Adept. I don't think I would want to run skywatcher adept alongside coral helm commander because their roles overlap a lot and the 2-drop is basically just better. Kraken Hatchling shows up on a number of lists and is desirable because he is fat and cheap. It has been pointed out that he is good against aggro-heavy metas.
Cosi's trickster isn't too popular because it's situational. It can be explosive, but it can also be a dork. Some people like it for use against a control-heavy, combo-y meta.
I don't think there has been a lot of talk about either caller of gales or merfolk spy. The former could be good if you play lots of big ground pounders as your artifact bombs (like wurmcoil engine, masticore, or maybe even darksteel golem). The latter has merit in a fish deck because it is potentially evasive and can help shine some light on when to hold a mana leak/negate. If you are running fish, his ability might prove redundant with merfolk sovereigns or you may find yourself pressured to run spreading seas.
2 drops:
These are the two-drops available in blue
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Augury Owl is almost a must-play because he is a guy and he digs for missing pieces, and he evades, and with Grand Architect out he beats.
Popular guys include coralhelm commander because he can sneak in early and get big and evasive later for beating on control. If you aren't playing fish, Hada Spy Patrol is a good analogue and might actually be better in some cases. Thrummingbird is on a lot of lists because he proliferates to put counters on Jace and Chimeric Mass, but I think his value is undercut by his small body and reliance on other cards. In a control build this might be worth it, but aggro needs cards that do something on their own.
Renegade doppelganger shows up on a lot of lists but the goal should be to drop stuff by tapping blue guys so his ability may often be wasted. He is a viable option as he makes late game plays potentially devastating, but there are better guys.
Playing Riddlesmith is probably not a good call in aggro because we won't be playing chumpy artifacts. If you are playing a control-oriented deck with a trinket-mage package he might be a good way to filter cards and set up a mid-game mindslaver combo or dig up a missing piece to play a big guy.
3 Drops:
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We have a lot of three-drop options, but most of them are chaff.
Grand Architect is obviously a must-include. For Fish builds Merfolk Sovereign is also at least a three-of. Control builds should seriously think about Aether Adept. Everyone should think about Seagate Oracle.
Trinket Mage is interesting card advantage for control and gives them a toolbox of sorts. Aggro shouldn't clutter their draws with the 0 and 1 drops needed to make him worthwhile.
Thada Adel works great and is potentially main-deck stuff (depending on how much artifact is going to show up in the next week or two). Again you'll be pressured to run Sovereign and/or spreading seas with this card as with Merfolk Spy. She works really well with basically every component of the deck, though, so think about her.
I haven't seen much talk about Wall of Frost, Dormant Gomozoa, or Calcite snapper. Any of these might work well for control and calcite snapper could work for aggro.
Four Drops are probably Jace, the wallet emptier. He is a known commodity and an obvious three-of for any control deck ever. Aggro may not want to play him... but probably aggro wants to play him as a two-of just for repeatable brainstorm and the psuedo fog effect he represents. With this exception, I don't like four-drops that aren't bomby artifacts I can cheat out (masticore).
Lots of mid range and control version list the new sphinx. I really don't think this deck wants to play with metalcraft.
Big Artifacts
The magic number is six. That's what we can pay on turn three, three whole turns earlier than we ought to be able. If you miss turn three you'll probably get a shot at a seven-drop, but I don't think it's good to fill our precious bomb-slots with something that might be too expensive for us to make the most devastating play this deck can pull off short of a mind slaver lock.
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Four is also a good number for guys with abilities to activate and because sometimes you lose a guy early.
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Molten-Tail Masticore is really great because you can drop him for four if you miss a guy or play him for "six" and he is removal resistant. This is an important trait and the main reason I argue for a wurmcoil engine in the bomb slot. On turn three he takes over the game because even if they answer it you're still way ahead of the curve with your two guys. Hellkite is playable because his X ability is especially significant on turn four when the board is full of chumps and maybe one threat. Also he flies and that counts for a lot.
I don't like Lodestone Golem because this plays a lot of not-artifact spells and he has kinda' a small body on him for his four mana cost
I think this deck needs to be tested with Caller of Gales. I'd also like to try some mid-cost equipment like Sword of Body and Mind and Strata Scythe.
Do you find that he has a significant enough impact on the board?
I guess he's a good-sized body for his cost and because he hammers out mana it's ok to play him as a dork in most circumstances. I could see him as an analogue for coralhelm commander insofar as they both sneak onto the board early and scream "answer me!" a few turns later if your opponent blasts your metal dudes.
Coralhelm commander does the same thing faster and for less mana, though, and he gets pumped by and pumps other merfolk. Those guys make up all the best guys for this deck.
I just played this deck on MWS a few times, my win ration is really high, I've only lost once to a janky mono-black lich deck and even had the joy of playing a Mirror match(!).
So far, there isn't a card from my main list I'd think of cutting at all.
Here's what I'm playing now on MWS.
4 Enclave Cryptologist
4 Coralhelm Commander
2 Lighthouse Chronologist
4 Grand Architect
3 Sea Gate Oracle
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
2 Eldrazi Monument
Spells
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Into the Roil
Lands
4 Tectonic Edge
18 Islands
2 Aether Adept
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Unified Will
1 Lighthouse Chronologist
4 Mindslaver
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
2 Eldrazi Monument
Kraken Hatchlings were removed from the sideboard because they are mostly unnecessary, the deck already has a very solid game against aggro before them and over kills the match up with them. Those 4 slots that were being taken up can be used for the last 2 Molten-Tails and 2 Eldrazi Monuments in the board, JIC you go up against U/W or some other attrition deck types.
Unified Will goes up against control with light creatures, Mindslaver is tech versus the Valakut Matchup (think about why this is awesome and you'll see why it's here) the last 2 Lighthouse for U/W, Aether Adepts for mid-range aggro strategies and Steel Hellkite for swarm strategies.
Yes, the thought was that the Thrummingbird was a nice way to take advantage of the trinketmage/toolbox, ie chalice and Chimeric Mass. It strikes me that Mass is a good card against W control and days. The number of charge counters can get up very quickly.
I am a bit confused as to why turn 2 Thrumming bird, Turn 3 CC is a bad play? TB on Turn 2. Cast CC, with a 3rd land, level CC up once, then attack with bird, which then gives the CC a second counter. This allows turn 4 for Architect, which can result in any of the 6 cc creatures, OR a beatdown with 2/2 birds and a 4/4 CC.
I am not at all happy with your curve. You wanna increase the chances of playing T3 Wormcoil as much as possible. That card is rediculous. Even without that, your curve is far from beatdown. As it stands now you are very rarely going to hit a drop every turn.
Im not sure what Lighthouse Chronologist's roll is. At all. Into the roil is not a answer. And Sea gate oracle is good for being a two for 1. Not for being a incredibly sub par beater. You have Jace without sac lands that wouldn't hurt you at all. You have Tectonic Edge in a deck that doesn't need to worry about even Valakut. When is Eldrazi monument ever going to be relevant for you? Coralhelm with 4 other merfolk... etc. You are spread out all over the place.
Your essentially running a very bad midrangy type deck.
Well if you didnt noticed i have a bit of ramp in the form of artifacts available to me. Grand architect is only 4 of in this deck; that's what i think you should adhere to. Having so many bad 1 drops wont help you at all if you dont draw the architect. it's exactly the same issue with 1 drops and demon of death's gate. The theoretical idea of having a ton of weenies with the '4 of' looked good on paper but is far from consistent.
If i draw the vedalken certarch's, i draw them. If i dont, I dont. the deck isnt hurt by it at all.
On another note, I edited my list. Trinket Mage is indeed too useful to disregard:
3 Dread Statuary
14 Island
4 Halimar Depths
3 Mystifying Maze
Creatures
3 Trinket Mage
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Grand Architect
4 Argent Sphinx
4 Vedalken Certarch
2 Distortion Strike
3 Brittle Effigy
1 Mox Opal
3 Everflowing Chalice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Contagion Engine
4 Chimeric Mass
1 Nim Deathmantle
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Brittle Effigy
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Dispel
3 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
4 Stoic Rebuttal
Edit: Nim Deathmantle actually looks pretty damn good next to an architect...
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
I still consistently see lists with Mana Leaks, and i have to wonder if that is just a force of habit when running blue. When running decks with a lot of 1 drops, 2 drops, 4 drops, i just don't see when Mana leak is going to be that key.
I also wonder about the argent. He is a decently sized body at 4/3, but he is also just dying to be bolted, and metalcraft, at least with these lists doesn't seem very viable. And at 4 mana that can't be ramped up by GA, he seems to be slow in this meta.
Against aggro decks, we are trying to race them, against ramp decks, the Leak is only going to be useful for turns 1-4, and i can't see us getting into a control war with blue.
I think Mindslaver is also being undercounted here. A turn 3 casted Mindslaver is rough enough, but a turn 5 cast and used Mindslaver is likely game versus a large number of decks.
@Vexed
I think I may have been vague. I do understand that with GA only being a 4 of, and our card drawing limited, we can't rely on it by turn 3/4 every time. But i think it is fair to say that the 1 drop blue cards should serve an independent purpose. I tend to agree about cutting hatchlings, but I think using cryptologists are nice as they help dig out an architect.
But my concern actually is that you have
8 cards with 5CC or higher
and your equipment require 6 mana to cast and equip on the same turn. Which means you have 10 cards that can't be used without GA until turn 5 at the earliest.
Without GA, my thought was that you may draw into very slow hands which can kill us.
As for the comparison to Death's gate, it isn't really Apt. Death's gate is a terrible card advantage card. Saccing 4 cards for one, better make it a game winner right away, and he just doesn't. GA doesn't require you to lose any card advantage, more that he is an enabler for the deck and adds a TON of speed. The deck should be able to limp out to a win even without getting GA out on the board. An early flier, coupled with a chalice and a turn 5 Wurmcoil may win the odd game or two.
Anyhow, i am very curious to see how this plays out. GA is an explosive card and i like the fact that there appears to be many ways into this.
During the early turns, if everything went well, I would be tapped out so I may remove the mana leaks altogether. I also felt something decent needed to be in the 4 drop slot because a lot of games I would only have the Architect and a Coralhelm Commander on the field.
I like the updates you made to the list but I am not sure about the Masticore, his upkeep cost hurts a lot if we don't have a leveled up Cryptologist. Would Lodestone Golem be decent in here since we are trying to play a lot of artifacts?
Originally it was all about running turn 3 Wurmcoil out as frequently as possible, and when you load your deck up with more inconsequential 1 drops and 2 drops to ensure that the curve is always hit, you lose the ability to manage a game when you don't hit it. The deck needs to be able to run with or without Grand Architect and with or without Wurmcoil Engine and still be capable of getting the "god draw". Coralhelm Commander is an efficient beater at 2cc, Enclave Cryptologist is for dig and not cause she's a merfolk, but being merfolk does allow her to benefit from the commander every so often. Lighthouse Chronologist is a brick house who can set up potentially devastating scenarios if he's left unchecked, 2 turns every turn and having a 3/5 body is very relevant in a standard dominated by 4/3 haste creatures in creature removal light decks. There aren't any other really aggressive/powerful 1/2 cc creatures that truly lend themselves to the ultimate goal of the deck.
Eldrazi Monument is just a meta choice, as it can single-handedly win a game for you when resolved against certain match ups, otherwise it's a perfectly good blank to chuck away to an Enclave. Tectonic Edge isn't for Valakut, it's actually for U/W control and their non-basics to slow their game down and buy you time to find/level up threats against them, forcing them into really bad decisions which you can exploit.
And I completely agree with you on the fetch lands, I just didn't think of it up until now.
I am just wondering how disruptive he is to the meta.
Against Titan/Valakut he does slow down their ramping, especially without RG anymore, they are relying more on cultivate, though i have to wonder whether by turn 4 if they are already able to ignore lodestone.
I see it shutting down poison by a lot. Most of their key creatures are >=3cc, and their tricks suddenly become much more expensive.
It definitely slows down control and red deck wins could very much be hurt.
Definitely worth looking into.
...? I only see 4. =|
And you have severely underestimated the strength of Argent Sphinx. Have you tried it yet? Metalcraft is far from an issue with cards like trinket mage available.
I just had a rematch with that U/W list i got CA'd by, Very good game. Jace digging for artis and then two sphinxes won me the game both times. g1, first error admittedly by my opp was letting grand architect survive a turn. kicked one chalice for 3 counters, nulled his mana leaks. G2 i think the opp went for a bounce tapout removal route or whatever. 3 for 1'd by Doj, but trinket mage gave me 6 counter mass to beat with so i didnt mind. i played jace the turn after, dug up some brittle effigies, Never used them not once oddly enough, dropped two argents and cleaned up. he had a ratchet bomb t2 so i stalled on dropping arti's till it was 2 counters. (i think he intended to blow up any architect i decided to play, but after Doj he used it on my Jace. =[ Already milked the hell out jace, but gg though.)
Steel Hellkite is an insane threat, so insane it's always seems to be answered before i can do anything with it... =[ most it's been good for is 6cmc eat a removal so chimeric mass can go for a swing... sigh. I mean overall its worthi it i guess, if it wins me the game but bleh.
Umm, +1 JtMs -1 Chimeric Mass. Jace is always good to have around. Extra Mass tend to feel... extra.
Why do members often misunderstand the objective of my posts. I brought up DoDg not to compared the two cards, but to compare deck building errors. DoDg.dec failed because its focus was to have an excessive number of one drops available so when Dodg was drawn, it could make the most of it. How is that any different from what you're insinuating? Enclave Cryptologist looks no better than a Viscera Seer to me. Worse even IMO.
I've been seeing more mature lists using DoDG recently and they stopped trying to make a DoDG.dec and worked on a suicide list instead. DoDg out of the sb against certain matchups. I dont know the list, but it seems the only 1 drop was mortician beetle.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
4 sphinx, 3 hellkites, 1 contagion engine.
That is 8 x 5 CC or higher. Correct?
Obviously testing will be what is key here, so theory crafting can only go so far.
IHow did the chimeric masses work for you? They are a nice tool with trinketmage.
And did you miss wurmcoil? And when did you find use for the contagion engine? versus elf decks?
And You are right about play testing.
5 cmc is insignificant with a deck that runs 24-27 lands, and 8 'ramp' cards. by t3 i tend to blow pass five and have 7 mana available to me t4. The cost of these cards have never dawned on or hindered me.
As a matter of fact, As I've mentioned before, the issue is mostly with drawing the threats, not playing them.
Lodestone is a good one trick pony that only works in multiples and begs for a bit of over extension. Just to put it out there. i had 4 lode's before i put trinket in. It's nice at T3 to drop, but once its answered, There's a lack of satisfaction felt from playing it.
Contagion Engine is definitely a winmore, and an opt out if my Argent Sphinxes cant protect me. <--- Note, I've played games wishing i had a voltaic key around because I would have mana available to activate it twice. I've only actually ever drawn into Engine 3-4 times.
I already mentioned. Masses are great, just not too many, becomes winmore also.
Wurmcoil... Is a bit overhyped to me.
A played a mirror match, I shouldn't say mirror because they played counters and wurmcoil off an architect engine, I ramp my hellkite out earlier than than he could ramp out wurmcoil. aside from that, giving me the lead, I destroyed it off the swing, ate 3 from a token, blocked one with a martyred sphinx, swung popped everything for 0 taking chalices, tokens, and a mass. Dude scooped there. Even if he had gotten his wurmcoil out first, it's lack of evasion and what it does post summoning sickness is subpar to me from what hellkite is capable of.
^^ Preference. I can drop distort strike on hellkite and still kill bsa on the swing, wurmcoil just nets some life i really dont need often times. I'm speaking through my personal experience though. The hivemind will still play Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine because they 'look' good in a vacuum.
IMO Frost Titan is better than Wurmcoil simply because there are far more shenanigans available with frost than engine, E.G. Mimic Vat, Venser, the Sojourner.
If there's anything in the deck I'm not satisfied with in my list atm it's the certarch's. Wish there were better one drops that didnt demand the mana investment to be decent.
Skill is an ability that relates more so to the type of deck that's built and how said player pilots it. It also relates to the ability to assess the board and use the cards available to you in the most optimal way relative to each situation.
When a deck is filled with above par cards and every play is solid, there comes a diminishing need to "think" for the lack of wanting to use a better word.
Vexed, have you tried out one of my later builds at all? How would you say they play out to you?