The problem here as I see it, is that 6 also means that some times youre going to see a lot more than 1 by turn 2...I still also really hate that Sphere comes into play tapped...the main strength of Chalice is that on turn 3 you can play it and still have leak mana open, which you cant with sphere. Playing it turn 2 gives you leak mana on turn 3, but prevents stopping say a Lotus Cobra or something that might kill you from aggro. Playing tap out like this is cool but not if your opponent is tapping out and playing much better spells (like lotus cobra vs sphere). When you run say 3 or 4 (easier of course if youre running Trinket Mage, which I think you should if youre trying to run chalice) then you are still pretty likely to see one by turn 4 where playing one still gets you a Wurmcoil a turn earlier. I feel like if you are trying to run this much ramp then you are probably better off running something like RUG/BUG and having a legit ramp plan where you can play turn 3 Jace turn 4 Titan or turn 4 Jace with leak backup which you cant really do with the artifact "ramp."
My build for example uses the Chalice more for mid game ramp than early game ramp...The idea is that it gets me clear of Mana Leak (or gets me mana to play something big with leak backup) sooner than my opponent in control mirrors, and as stated earlier if im playing a chalice on say turn 3/4 (instead of 2) I am leaving myself with Leak or Doom Blade (GftT) mana open more often than not. Ill usually only play Chalice turn 2 if I really have nothing in hand and need to get to big stuff or lose, and it usually doesnt matter if im on the play or draw. Being able to play Jace turn earlier, even on the play, means nothing if they are on 2 mana (cause they didnt tap out to play chalice or sphere) vs our 4, and they have a leak in hand.
I also wouldnt worry too much about playing Memoricide against the mirror...control decks have enough variable ways to win or stop memoricide that its really not worth it.
Being able to pump out a big BSZ earlier doesnt really mean much either since early game their creatures aren't going to be that big anyways...Maybe you're trying to kill a Percy with it?
I understood why Stoic (over say cancel) I just didnt understand why 1 stoic and 1 deprive when stoic is clearly a much better option for a deck running a decent amount of artifacts...what happens after the player plays you at say FNM one week then realizes that you aren't on 12 hard counters? Will you still run 1 of each at that point?
Ill give you this, if you test with it a lot and are happy with it and comfortable with the build then play it...its still the most important thing to play what is comfortable to you. Its the 2nd more important thing tho to listen to constructive advice
@ Knighted
Id like that list a lot more if the Eldrazi things were artifacts that worked with Tezz. Id also like to see at least 2 fetchlands (maybe -1 swamp -1 island +1 misty +1 verdant) go in there if you like Eternity Vessel. Inkmoth Nexus also probably doesnt fit into that list real well. I think youd be happier if you dropped those and added more swamps and islands so you dont find yourself color screwed (8 colorless lands is pretty painful) I really like the idea of ichor wellspring with Tezz, how has it been working out for you?
I see what you're saying here. In the testing I've done, I've never been flooded by Chalices and Spheres in the early game. I don't think six is a critical mass number. I remember playing Mythic last season, and hating the idea of running eight one drop mana dorks. I thought it was too much. But I only was flooded with Birds and Hierarchs two or three times out of ten games. I really think six is the right number. It gives me enough mana in the mirror to gain an advantage, as well as allowing me to keep up somewhat with the RUGs, BUGs, and Valakuts of the format.
I look at Sphere similar to how I look at Rampant Growth. Technically, Rampant draws you a card, while Sphere doesn't, but fundamentally they work the same in my eyes. You're making a down payment on mana advantage next turn.
I just hate Trinket Mage. It's a waste of a slot to me. Mage into Chalice isn't backbreaking, and as a body Mage is significantly worse in this kind of deck than, say, Sea Gate Oracle. I really don't see the need to run Mage in this if all I'm doing is fetching out Chalices.
I'll consider the advice. I like the direction the deck is headed. I've considered taking out both Deprive and Stoic Rebuttal in favor of, well, something. This list is more akin to a tap out UB, and I often find myself sitting on counterspells in my hand with too much land tapped. I'll probably end up adding a Doom Blade and Disfigure, or something like that.
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@Knighted:
So, how effective is semblance anvil? Seems like with the lack of ways to really draw cards consistently it wouldn't really be that great. And I mean CA drawing. Not preordain which is just selection and not CA. Especially because you don't really have that many artifacts that it really benefits or that really need it. I mean, is it convenient if you get it going? Yes. But it just seems like a really loose card. Mimic vat seems like it would be a stronger choice.
I'll try Mimic Vat, I do find that the semblance anvil is less effective; I find often my choice is dropping my ish sah or one of my mana arts to it.
Also, what do people think about using lux cannon? If you are going to be proliferating 1-2 times a turn (or more), being able to vindicate every other turn is pretty good. And combined with spine of Ish Sah and throne of geth, it seems pretty stupid good.
I did try Lux cannon out, it was in the original list, but i found it was too slow. I kept feeling like if I only drew a way to deal with the 4-5 1/1s they played in the first few turns i would feel better about it.
And instead of all is dust, which is expensive/slow, and not going to do that much against control (except against grave titan), and probably too slow against aggro, why not just play your own jaces? Even just 2 gives the deck that much more consistency, and a CA engine that will actually draw you cards. Its also huge against control, and gives you a way to combat an opposing jace if you cant just vindicate it.
all is dust is in there for a sweeper, I'm thinking I might replace it with the black zenith in the sb, because i can reduce the size of their creatures, and slowly kill them off with proliferate.
I think disfigure is an excellent call in this deck, and props for that. Given that you have ways to deal with bigger creatures, the 1 drop is very relevant. Also great against tarpits in the "mirror" or other UB matches.
Eternity vessel is hilarious, and is kool as a miser.
Eternity vessel works well with the proliferate, and keeps reseting my life each turn, forcing the opponent to deal any time i get it out, 20+ damage on a turn to kill me. It's fun
I agree with the above posts about having 8 colorless sources. Maybe drop to a 2/2 split or a 3/1 split. I think the manlands might be better, especially with proliferate, you will have an alternate win con (never a bad thing). It can also function as removal since you proliferate.
I originally had 4 spreading seas in with the manlands (i've proliferated poison counters as a wincon, especially with a 2nd turn attack). I found that the spreading seas spots were not helping the deck, and the tectonic edges fixed the problem. I have been mana screwed a few times since. originally i had 1 marsh flats and 1 scalding tarn in the deck, but I kept getting them after I already had all the swamps and islands out of my deck :(. bad luck i guess.
This is fine in a deck youre playin with buds, or maybe even FNM...but not for any sort of actual tournament. So 8 colorless lands at your own risk.
@ LostCon
I appreciate the idea behind your mana ramp, I really do...your comparisons feel off to me though as an attack with those mythic creatures was game over with Sovereign out while at the same time ramping into that instant sort of win condition. That ramp at 1 mana was also obviously much better/faster than sphere/chalice (although prone to creature removal I guess...but if artifacts get popular then im sure it will be similar here). My point still stands that if you want to do legit ramping then you need to actually ramp for reals and run something like rug that is built to abuse that ramp. Lotus Cobra and Oracle are much more effective means of both ramp and in Oracle's case fixing. I dont at all mean that you shouldnt run chalice (maybe sphere, but I really hate sphere tbh) but 6 seems like you are really dedicating too much space, the type of control you can run with UB just doesnt need that much. The comparison to Rampant Growth also doesnt really apply so much as that card is much more appropriate in a Ramp style deck built around ramping much more so than either tap out or permission control. Sure it could fit into something like RUG but then RUG is designed to work with ramp and without it isnt super hot.
The reason I approve of Trinket mage is cause if youre gonna run the mage then you can/should both run chalice AND brittle effigy/elixer as well, this yields you both answers and a way to get chalice to ramp into a 6 drop on turn 5 if you need to do so. Its still a blocker even if only a 2/2 instead of a 1/3 and I am plenty happy to trade it with things like Goblin Guide or whatever as opposed to just sitting around having a stare off.
@Patsfan
yah memnite doesnt really do much for a control deck...even with tezz...although tbh I dont really like Ornithopter either, im not too worried about evasion on my tezz tokens as I have a lot of ways to get through blockers (removal/jace etc) I guess as a 1 of is a possibility for a trinket mage package if you really need multiple blockers (in fact I had a game today where that would have worked nicely to buy me an extra turn I guess).
@ everybody
Was testing my version out a bit more today, had some more good results, although most of it wasnt full matches, just game 1s vs a handful of decks as the UB SB is full of good options and the meta isnt really very set atm so a SB would be all guesswork atm anyways. While this one day of course isnt a full sample of testing, it is useful to show how some of these games play out. For example I find with this deck most often I use Tezz's +1 ability and it only takes a turn or two of doing this before games are ending via tezz ultimate and a few beats.
Played a few against RG infect (growths, assault strobe, crazy fast but fragile deck)
First game I kept a hand with sketchy lands that almost came back to bite me, I was on the draw and had only citpt lands so I was a full turn behind till turn 4/5 basically...Phyrexian Revoker was again a MD all start shutting of Blight Mamba's Regen which let me kill it after he swung for 8 poison counters on turn 3. I was able to drop out a ratchet bomb also at some point which killed the only other creature he landed after I leaked 2 others. Consecrated Sphinx and Jace sealed it from there.
Second game I lost but it was close, I thought I had the board stable at 9 poison counters, but he was able to find a smoldering spires to shut off a tezz token and he was able to sneak through the last counter...this is the game above I was talking about where Trinket Mage into Ornithopter/Memnite would have actually saved me, heh.
Third game opponent got stuck on lots of pump spells but not enough creatures, so it was pretty easy, tezz and myr battlesphere won it pretty quickly.
Second match was against a mono green eldrazi deck running Steel Hellkites instead of wurmcoil engines (I still dont get why all of a sudden hellkite is in so many lists)
Game 1 he dropped Hellkite turn 4 but I bounced it twice with Jace then got a Consecrated Sphinx out which died to hellkite, but went on Mimic Vat. Was pretty easy to control from there till I could kill hellkite with doom blade (doom blade is amazing..dont run only GftT) Tectonic Edge and mana leak was able to keep him off of enough mana to drop his Ulamog.
Game 2 wasnt very close, I phyrexian revoked his Joraga Treespeaker. GftT on birds of paradise which went on Mimic Vat shut off Steel Hellkite and Turn 6 Myr Battlesphere Turn 7 Tezz sealed it up. Revoker is better and better the more I play with it. Shutting off Joraga is pretty win.
Third "match" was against another mono green eldrazi (yawn I know) but one running wurmcoils and a MD gaea's revenge which is pretty irritating, lol.
Game 1 was pretty much a blowout for him. I was on the draw, He had a ton of ramp and my mana leaks that I drew into were quickly pointless...I was close at one point with mimic vat hitting the board and jace out, but next turn 2x Summoning trap for primeval titan and gaeas revenge sealed the deal (plus a wurmcoil I had bounced with Jace)
Game 2 was sorta the opposite, on the play I had mana leak for his explore then cultivate (I have found I have to delay his mana ramp or I am a major underdog, and leak on walls and titans just runs me into summoning trap so yah) He finally dropped joraga which I doom bladed. He was seemingly stuck on 4 mana for a turn or two after that so I was able to get a pretty good board with Tezz and Mimic Vat and then a Myr Battlesphere. He finally dropped a Wurmcoil and Primeval Titan but at that point it was largely irrelevant as doom blade got the wurm and something got the lifelink token and I was able to just blow him up with battlesphere and tezz ultimate.
Next was Valakut but only one game then I ran out o time.
I was on play and kept a nice hand of darkslick darkslick tec edge tec edge jace doom blade mana leak. Naturally I drew a few more lands, killed overgrown battlement, killed 2 valakuts and mana leaked a primeval titan...kinda a boring game. Jace fate-sealed him a few turns while he had no cards in hand and no shuffle effects, but I killed him with Sphinx before I could ultimate him which made me sad, lol.
All in all each time I play this build I am more and more happy with it. I cant wait to run up against more new decks to see how it does vs some more newer things, but I am very positive about how good the deck is at this stage and I feel like this should be reasonably easy to tweak to fit in the coming months.
Thanks again for the input. I really like Sphere, and I think that's our primary point of contention.
I'll consider adding Trinket Mage. I've tested Mage in a thousand different Tezz decks and I'm consistently disappointed. Perhaps that's why I have a bias against it. But I'll consider finding room for it.
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Would you rather tap out to play sphere on turn 2, or tap out to doom blade a lotus cobra? Or have mana leak up for their turn 3 drop? Or drop a ratchet bomb to clear the board of little dudes? or whatever sort of set up you might want. Or maybe its turn 5 and they just played a Titan...would you rather jace into land land sphere or land land doom blade?
In other words, those 2 to 3 spots you are giving up to sphere or chalice that go beyond what most people run could easily be answers to problems that you might face. Control is about answers and how easy it is to find them...Even RUG is succeptable to this when occasionally it ramps and filters into more ramp and filters..why drag yourself into this when you dont have to with a worse version of ramp?
Why is your version better than BUG or RUG, explain this to me and ill leave you alone ;p Dont just say "tezz" either, cause I dont buy it since you only run 2 tezz (and 3 jace only too boot!) ;p I guess you have a 2 color mana base vs 3 and you get tectonic edge? That hasnt stopped RUG from doing really well anyways.
On the Trinket mage thing...I didnt really like him much either until Tezzeret came along and made those artifacts he nabs relevant in the mid/late game, trinket mage really comes through and shines for me a lot now, where before I was pretty bleh about him...yay its turn 10 ill trinket mage for chalice???? now its turn 10 and ill trinket mage for a 5/5 or another piece of the puzzle for the ultimate or ill recur elixer off my mimic vatted mage or whatever...Is it the BEST way to build this deck? I dunno, but I know my results are very promising so far and that thus far trinket mage has really never been dead for me. I was right there with you man, I hated trinket mage with only SoM...now I dunno but hes pretty solid now. The only negative with him is that a few times ive been able to pull out a lot of artifacts early before landing tezz which made his +1 miss, but it has never really swung a game badly and at the least its always been a pseudo-shuffle for me for Jace.
On that note ill try to get up an updated list at some point tonight or tomorrow.
edit:
I found this list on channelfireball that is interesting looking for tezz control running a poison theme which I know some have mentioned and ive just not gotten around to tryin out.
That Poison list looks pretty interesting. I think that's a viable route to take, since an early Plague Myr can be pretty similar to a Chalice anyway, Inkmoth Nexus is already a bamf, and Skittles over your expensive Artifact bomb of choice (Precursor Golem, Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere) is a-ok. My only issue with making Poison the primary win-con is that it doesn't mesh well with Tezz's amazing ultimate, which I honestly kinda think is the primary appeal of him. Being able to hit it turn after he drops, or even the same turn with proliferate, and Drain Life to the head for 10+ is sickening, for four mana to boot... but you need the chip damage of those Trinket Mages, Creeping Tar Pits, and stuff to actually make it lethal.
Trinket Mage is a good card. There's nothing wrong with pulling your ramp Artifacts, especially if it's your first. (They still help you activate manlands, pop an Effigy, power through Mana Leak, etc.) But besides that, fetching up instant exile removal is pretty strong. Equipment-wise, Darksteel Axe is the obvious application but Basilisk Collar is also really good too if you're running more creatures. A singleton Voltaic Key is a wonderful target with which to abuse Lux Cannon if you have them in your 75, a strong anti-control card from the SB if nothing else. Of course, there's also Elixir shenanigans (and the 2/2 body) against aggro. It's a shame there aren't any good creatures for Trinket Mage to nab, only 2-3 questionable choices at best.
I think Sphere of the Suns is pretty worthless, since I see little reason to run it over Mox Opal. Both color fix but Mox Opal can actually accelerate the turn it comes down and can beautifully be fetched off a Trinket Mage. I suppose that implies you're running a "machine" type of list and not merely using Tezz as a 2-of supplement in a fairly normal UB list... but I don't really think Tezz's home is in a normal UB list as nothing more than Jace's Brainstorm buddy. Trinket Mage can already do that while taking up much less deckspace. :/
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Now after some initial contributions, I get to talk about my own list finally. It's most similar to LawfulNeutral's Machine Red modification, although I keep the alternate Poison win-con... no real disadvantage when you get it on your land now, not that Necropede is a bad card or anything.
Total Artifact count of 24, with the SB set up to keep my Artifact count high after Game 1. Not sure what kind of questions I'll get, so I'll try to explain some choices best I can... I'll start with the more obvious choices and work my way down. Spoiler tag for length.
Trinket Mage, "duh." See above. And, umm, Jace... yeah. What can I say? Likewise, you can see I'm on board with LC's assessment of the Artifact ramp, though I like Mox Opal as a fetch target and potential immediate ramp over the Sphere. Other fetch targets...
I've been very happy with having two Brittle Effigy in the deck. One sometimes isn't enough and I don't think I've ever really required a third, so I think I hit the sweet spot on the first try.
Basilisk Collar might seem like a strange choice but the ability to allow my weenies to hold Grave Titans and ☺☺☺☺ at bay is actually really good. It also lets Etched Champion race effectively by buffering the life total and it sets up gimmicky but effective Perilous Myr shenanigans.
I don't feel like Voltaic Key does much in the MD but it's a really good singleton to have available for my SB Lux Cannons. Occasionally, it does serve to allow a single Etched Champion or Wurmcoil Engine to play both offense and defense, which is nice.
I'm considering replacing the Key (moving it to the side over the nigh-useless GY hate card :P) with a Darksteel Axe. Aside the obvious application with Tezz himself, the fact it makes respectable beaters out of my little creatures and gives Inkmoth Nexus a much faster clock is notable.
Throne of Geth, still fairly obvious IMO. It's the cheapest, fastest way to proliferate, pushing Tezz's ability to finish games out of nowhere in the mid/late-game. It also lets Perilous Myr double as a colorless Shock (or a build-your-own removal spell with Collar). It splits Wurmcoil Engine when two dudes are better than one, helps it avoid bounce, or ups your Artifact count for Tezz's ultimate. It's what enables Inkmoth Nexus poison as a viable alternate win-con and abuses SB Lux Cannons against control. It makes something useful from your opponent's Artifact removal and hoses enemy Wurmcoil Engines in combat... it's surprisingly versatile, quite possibly the best Artifact in the deck.
Less obvious... why Etched Champion? With 20+ Artifacts I'm liable to have metalcraft for it a vast majority of the time. Do people just underestimate the power of Pro-Colors? Seriously, he's amazing. Admittedly, he's been somewhat underwhelming against all the janky Artifact decks I keep running into more often than I should right now :(, but against most real decks that don't have a bunch of Myr and colorless removal (**** Contagion Clasp) he's really good. ;/ He's very difficult to remove and can block/swing past everything short of Wurmcoil Engine. Combined with Tar Pit and slinging Myrs, it's how I so easily chip away at opponents to set up for a late-game Tezz-bomb... shame those pro-colors prevent Tezz from buffing his puny body, that's the only drawback.
Perilous Myr is an Artifact and a wonderful anti-aggro creature. It shouldn't be that hard to see what he brings to the table... but just as relevant a question, why him over Necropede? Numerous reasons... The two damage hits just kills so many more things than a -1/-1 counter, especially if he's hit by removal (e.g. Bolt -> kill Goblin Guide) or I have the Throne of Geth interaction early (T3 Throne following up T2 Myr -> EFF YOO FAUNA SHAMAN). And remember that I'm pushing the DD angle (with Tezz's ultimate) more than I am the poison angle, so I prefer the real damage over poison damage. It also hits Planeswalkers, which is occasionally relevant, and can abuse Basilisk Collar to take down even bomby creatures.
Wurmcoil Engine is a-ok where he is, I think. I originally tried Precursor Golem there, as he's cheaper and creates more dudes for Tezz, but Wurmcoil is a better defender anyway (lifelink) and doesn't threaten to "die to removal" as easily. I haven't tried other potential Artifact bombs, namely Myr Battlesphere (legion of chump blockers, much stronger interaction with Tezz, innate resistance to bounce... still much inferior in the face of targetted removal), so I can't say if Wurmcoil is the best choice but he's been working pretty well and the six-cost is notable at being able to come down T4 on a lucky draw.
Lastly, the playset of both Inkmoth Nexus and Tectonic Edge has given me no problems casting colored cards. I mean, look at my list and literally the only thing I need colors for is Trinket Mage, the PWs, and activating Tar Pit. Tectonic Edge I've found to be necessary to help shore up an otherwise difficult ramp matchup (being that I have no counters), plus they kill manlands and can give me a huge mana advantage in control mirrors when I have Artifact sources going. Inkmoth Nexus was originally considered for its ability to activate as an Artifact and work with Tezz's ultimate, yet it can also be a win-con in its own right and is yet another speed bump for aggro to work through, especially against annoying Flyers that are otherwise hard to answer without the Myr-Throne combo.
The worst match-ups, besides ramp, are quick aggro swarms which is where BSZ comes in from the board. I haven't seen enough red decks to get a good feel for Wall of Tanglecord, so I can't say how effective it is but they're thoeretically good! They could probably just be Spreading Seas as another means to combat ramp. Nihil Spellbomb has been useless even against the occasional Vengevine deck, since I find they usually play around it easily just by recurring the first Vengevine they dump into the GY. ;/ Lux Cannon is amazing against control decks.
It basically plays like a control deck, though with a heavy Artifact package instead of counters I am forced to be more proactive. Instead of trying to preserve my life total long enough to drop bombs and take control of the mid-game from aggro, I'm dropping cheap 2-for-1 bodies (Myr, Mage) and producing huge 5/5 dudes for protection as early as Turn 3 with T2 accel. Ramp matchup is weaker without the counters but my limited ability to ramp alongside them, then hold them down with Tec Edge gives me a little game against them. (Phyrexian Revoker is surprisingly good against ramp decks that aren't Valakut, too. It shuts down mana dorks and is another Artifact to count toward Tezz.) Control matchups are actually quite easy I have so many little advantages over them -- I have the mana advantage with my Artifact ramp, Etched Champion is basically Tar Pits 5-8, and Tezz can come out of nowhere to knock off Jace when they think they've won the Jace war.
A typical win is chipping the opponent down in the 8-12 range with early beats and unavoidable damage sources (Myr trigger, Champion, Tar Pit), then bombing them with Tezz's ultimate. Sometimes that isn't necessary and I just naturally get there with my cheap beats and CA generation, sometimes an aggressive start (e.g. T1 Artifact, T2 Chalice, T3 Tezz into 5/5 Haste dude) is too much for them to handle. Though I have pulled it off a few times, winning via poison is actually rare since it tends to require multiple Inkmoths or Thrones to make it a reasonable clock.
Just to demonstrate the extreme: One game against a Valakut opponent. He didn't god-ramp into T4 Titan and beat my ass, so we had a good back-and-forth in the mid-game. I removed his first Titan with a Brittle Effigy and Tec Edge both Valakuts, so he couldn't burn me out there. A few turns later, he drops an Avenger of Zendikar with eight lands and a Khalni on-board... ouch. ;/ And I hadn't been putting much pressure on him, so he's still at 17 life and I have one turn before I'm trampled by Plant Army. I do, however, have a ton of Artifacts on the board and a Tezzeret in hand. I untap, Tar Pit him to 14. Second main phase I play down Tezz, proliferate him with Throne of Geth, activate my three on-board Inkmoth Nexus and burn him for lethal. \m/ A four-mana Fireball for 14? The lifegain is just gravy. There's my "showcase" example of his ridiculous ultimate.
question: if i use tezzeret to turn an equipment that gives +1/+1 (for example) into a 5/5, will it then turn into a 6/6 because of the +1/+1 it would give an equipped creature (like it was equipped itself)
The more fun question would have been "what happens when you turn Darksteel Axe into a 5/5 artifact creature equipment then equip it on another Darksteel Axe 5/5 artifact creature equipment!?" lawl ;p
On a serious note:
my only comment on the "machine" build is how is it as good or better than existing UB control decks? I see a theorhetical ability to be faster with seemingly more early beats (although you could probably build a UB build with MD nighthawks and Skinrenders and maybe Percy that would be as fast or faster I suppose) But I also see a large number of slow or clunky artifacts that look really terrible without tezz on board. Still though I like the idea, and it can only get better a short time from now when the next set comes out even if it doesnt work out fully this time.
On my deck, you note that Tezz is merely a "brainstorm buddy" for Jace...While I did make a point of that amazing interaction (tezz actually leads to more CA with Jace while Trinket Mage is only a shuffle effect really, which isnt bad also ;p) but that isnt the only good use of the card. While I dont abuse Tezz as fully obviously as your list, I do make good use of trying to limit the bad artifacts that are really only there for Tezz (like throne of geth for example) while still keeping the total number of artifacts mathematically high enough to warrant Tezz's inclusion in the build. With 12/13 artifacts (myr battlesphere being semi key here) I am generally able to utilize Tezz's Ultimate for a win a turn or two after he drops also and even on occasions where I dont actually finish the game that soon, it effectivly is ending the game that soon by major board advantage brought out by both the pseudo tutoring effect of his +1 or the army creation of his -1. Here cards like brittle effigy, ratchet bomb and mimic vat really excell by creating a much more controlling game state and a lot stronger defense as opposed to again throne of geth that really isnt contributing to board presence at all on its own, I really try to avoid cards that do nothing on their own without enablers. I think I went over the list earlier but; Chalice ramps into things, Effigy removes things, Mimic Vat makes playing creatures against UB a scary proposition (yes if nothing else happens Mimic Vat does nothing I guess you could argue but Id rather stare down a Throne of Geth before a Mimic Vat across the table wouldnt you?) Ratchet Bomb kills all sorts of threats, Elixer of Immortality is great against aggro and valakut and enables silly trinket mage and jace tricks. So by running a more bare bones and not all in on tezz plan I am hopefully limiting my dead draws and bad spells count by a signifigant margin compared to lists trying to run 20-26 artifacts. I just dont find enough of those artifacts to be actually worth it.
In other words I really focused on trying not to get too caught up by the prospect of tezz while still abusing him in UB. The main thing ive found here is that Tezz allows for a much more varied plan of attack and lets me hit opponents from different angles that the more straightforward UB control (like say wafo-tapos from worlds) cant do. Not that normal UB isnt amazing, cause it is..but its a lot of fun with tezz and some other options and my results are as good or better now than they were before.
I did note your approval of Phyrexian Revoker...he is still decent against Valakut (like out 4x PMyr in 4x PR would work for me) as PMyr is doing nothing in that matchup and PR shuts of battlement and more importantly Khalni Heart Expedition. But I dont know what your SB plan is all the way so maybe youre bringing out PMyr for something else already. I love this guy though, and while a lot of people are talking about him in SBs I am calling him as the sleeper dude of the set
My thoughts on tezz in u/b control, and this is speculation, not from testing, but id like to run a permission heavy deck possibly using inkmoth nexus as a finisher (2 turn clock with minimal mana investment).
I also think that this type of deck would either require very good mental math or a lot of writing down ☺☺☺☺, cuz you WILL be cycling through your deck with jace and tezz and knowing the order of the cards on the bottom will be important.
I reeaaallyy think that having enough counters here is key, but i could see a tapoutish approach being takin as well
I actually think Throne of Geth is better than Contagion Clasp (or Engine), unless you also really need that ETB -1/-1 trigger for the sake of killing early mana dorks. (Titans? I don't want them shrunken, I want them dead.) Four mana to proliferate is expensive, Throne of Geth is simply much faster. Though it does weaken Tezz's ultimate slightly, throwing away Artifacts isn't a huge deal because there's so many extraneous (e.g. extra Chalices) and beneficial targets (e.g. Perilous Myr) to sacrifice, not to mention it makes targetted Artifact removal look silly.
Ratchet Bomb is a generically good card. Even if it hits your Chalices at zero and a few other cheap cards, the game state will dictate when it is and isn't necessary to blow it up. For example, T2 Ratchet Bomb for zero is liable to really screw with Kuldotha decks and is generally quick to sweep weenie decks in the 0-2 range. It's not even that bad at removing higher-CMC things if don't need an immediate answer, since proliferate or a single Voltaic Key can make cranking it up relatively quick.
In other words I really focused on trying not to get too caught up by the prospect of tezz while still abusing him in UB. The main thing ive found here is that Tezz allows for a much more varied plan of attack and lets me hit opponents from different angles that the more straightforward UB control (like say wafo-tapos from worlds) cant do. Not that normal UB isnt amazing, cause it is..but its a lot of fun with tezz and some other options and my results are as good or better now than they were before.
Well, I've always stuck by UW myself. Indeed, I built a deck specifically built around abusing Tezzeret to his fullest, not a minor modification of standard UB to accomodate him. It was a fun project, I don't claim it to be the next big thing! That said, I still think he needs more than 10-12 Artifacts to work well. "On average" isn't good enough, Tezz still sucks when his +1 whiffs 40% of the time and you don't even have any Artifacts on the board he can animate. That makes him too dependent on Jace to get any work done.
You underrate Throne of Geth. I have plenty of experience with Mimic Vat in MBC, though, and I do loves me some of that...
Would you rather tap out to play sphere on turn 2, or tap out to doom blade a lotus cobra? Or have mana leak up for their turn 3 drop? Or drop a ratchet bomb to clear the board of little dudes? or whatever sort of set up you might want. Or maybe its turn 5 and they just played a Titan...would you rather jace into land land sphere or land land doom blade?
In other words, those 2 to 3 spots you are giving up to sphere or chalice that go beyond what most people run could easily be answers to problems that you might face. Control is about answers and how easy it is to find them...Even RUG is succeptable to this when occasionally it ramps and filters into more ramp and filters..why drag yourself into this when you dont have to with a worse version of ramp?
Why is your version better than BUG or RUG, explain this to me and ill leave you alone ;p Dont just say "tezz" either, cause I dont buy it since you only run 2 tezz (and 3 jace only too boot!) ;p I guess you have a 2 color mana base vs 3 and you get tectonic edge? That hasnt stopped RUG from doing really well anyways.
On the Trinket mage thing...I didnt really like him much either until Tezzeret came along and made those artifacts he nabs relevant in the mid/late game, trinket mage really comes through and shines for me a lot now, where before I was pretty bleh about him...yay its turn 10 ill trinket mage for chalice???? now its turn 10 and ill trinket mage for a 5/5 or another piece of the puzzle for the ultimate or ill recur elixer off my mimic vatted mage or whatever...Is it the BEST way to build this deck? I dunno, but I know my results are very promising so far and that thus far trinket mage has really never been dead for me. I was right there with you man, I hated trinket mage with only SoM...now I dunno but hes pretty solid now. The only negative with him is that a few times ive been able to pull out a lot of artifacts early before landing tezz which made his +1 miss, but it has never really swung a game badly and at the least its always been a pseudo-shuffle for me for Jace.
On that note ill try to get up an updated list at some point tonight or tomorrow.
edit:
I found this list on channelfireball that is interesting looking for tezz control running a poison theme which I know some have mentioned and ive just not gotten around to tryin out.
You may just need to sleeve my deck up and realize how often you draw to much artifact ramp. There are games that I literally go without a Sphere AND Chalice.
The RUG matchup is actually one of my favorites. I have tons of spot removal to deal with their Titans, and Black Sun's Zenith to deal with Avenger, Cobra, and Oracle. Mimic Vat really shines in that MU. Being able to imprint a Vat with Frosty or Avenger is GG. Creeping Tar Pit knocks out Jace and Garruk and Wurmcoil is unmatched on the board, save for a resolved Frost Titan. Last night I had a game in which I had a Doomblade, Go for the Throat, Tezzeret, and Black Sun's Zenith in hand late in the game, with six land and a Sea Gate Oracle on the board. I had cast a Chalice the turn prior, which was at two counters. My opponent had just resolved an Inferno Titan, his only threat on the board (I had Tec Edged a Ravine and also swept earlier in the game). I dropped Tezzeret, +1, and found a Mimic Vat, which I dropped. I then Doombladed his Titan, and imprinted it on Vat. Next turn, he dropped Frost Titan, choosing to keep my Mimic Vat tapped down. I dug with Tezzeret again, found a Wurmcoil, cast it, and Throttled the Frost, choosing to imprint it on Vat.
Long story short, I eventually won on the back of an animated 5/5 Chalice and Frost Titan tokens. I would have never won that game without a. Tezzeret finding the Vat and Wurmcoil, and b. the extra mana Chalice gave me late game.
I absolutely see what you're saying about Sphere, and I've considered dropping them for two Ratchet Bombs. But the idea behind Chalice ramp, some minor artifact utility, and Tezzeret in the UB shell is a solid idea.
Pretty sure the Contagion engine ruins the aggro decks... completely. and then when you untap... you proliferate twice making tez go ultimate (if you used him to get him) or pop off a 5/5 (you can make engine a 5/5 and then proliferate twice in response to attacks at Instant speed... leaving up crirical counter mana (not much if we are using stoic rebuttle)
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Legacy: GRB Belcher UUB Merfolk RRR Burn GWU Bant Walker RB Goblins
Pretty sure the Contagion engine ruins the aggro decks... completely. and then when you untap... you proliferate twice making tez go ultimate (if you used him to get him) or pop off a 5/5 (you can make engine a 5/5 and then proliferate twice in response to attacks at Instant speed... leaving up crirical counter mana (not much if we are using stoic rebuttle)
I think Consume the Meek is just better than the Engine. It has instant speed, it cost one less, and it removes creatures faster. Also, you cannot tap a creature in response to attacking.
This seems to be the largest, most active thread regarding Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. So I'll post my biggest question here. What does the new planeswalker really offer U/B Control that it doesn't already have or do better? It seems an awful lot to me like there's a lot of effort to put Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas into the deck along with a bunch of relatively crappy artifacts whose presences are justified only by Tezzeret's. I'm just not seeing the synergy or utility. WHY add the new planeswalker?
I think ive gone over quite a few of the reasons to run Tezz if you are willing to read my (and a few others) long posts.
Ill list a few options here though I guess to sum a few things up.
Against control you gain a planeswalker that isnt named Jace which at times is relevant.
You pick up a win condition where say Jace Beleren is only CA, Tezz is CA that can win a game extremely fast.
Massive synergy with JtMS making the squadron hawk plan of UW caw-go look like a silly little school girl.
While the original artifact package of say Nick Spagnolo's UB control deck that won NY States was good early and gave the deck some interesting plans with Trinket Mage, it didnt really have what it takes to continue on in the format (with more standard UB lists like the one from California taking the popular spot) What Tezz does is allow that list (with obviously a few other changes) to actively abuse those early artifacts that are super easy found (between trinket mage, jace and tezz) to become major threats in the mid to late game where in the past they were pretty dead.
Even a small "ultimate" can swing a ton of games against aggro, especially since tezz can protect himself very easily. both a +1 to search or a -1 to make a token protect tezz from quick death in ways that a lot of other walkers cant do.
At least in my version there really wasn't THAT much effort into making him fit. It just took Nick Spagnolo's original list and a few other swaps to make him work pretty well IMO. Options that get brought in are things like Mimic Vat that were already pretty good in UB anyways and which play very well into the tezz plan as well as the general UB plan. The only non-standard swap that I felt compelled to make was Myr Battlesphere over Wurmcoil Engine due to the synergy of those two cards...I think wurmcoil would still be find, but its not the same beating, Battlesphere is pretty good against aggro anyways, although if youre really low then the lifelink could be relevant occasionally vs 5 bodies hitting play.
there are other things too, but thats a quick rundown of a few off the top o my head.
You may just need to sleeve my deck up and realize how often you draw to much artifact ramp. There are games that I literally go without a Sphere AND Chalice.
I know from my own play running 3/4 chalices that at times I get 2 chalices very early game...if this happens to me with 3 then I could only imagine with 6...it happens enough where I draw into chalice when I dont want to at 3 that I generally dont even both with 4. Maybe im just unlucky or maybe you are very lucky. Hey at least with jace and tezz its semi easy to shoo them away I guess.
people running ratchet bombs: really? What number do you blow it at?
I was dubious about them as well, which is why it took me 3 or 4 versions of the build to try them out. I have been pretty happy with them so far though, and against a number of aggro decks ive tested with they have clearly been all-stars. What number do I blow it at? Whatever number I need to. 2 seems to be the most common number, and fortunatly I dont really run too much at 2 beyond Ratchet Bomb, about the only thing really is Phyrexian Revoker, but in the one or two instances where I had both out, I gladly gave up the revoker to kill multiple targets across the board. Id also gladly give up an everflowing chalice to kill multiple kuldotha tokens or whatever tokens/memnites you need killed. Generally if I need to ramp Ratchet bomb up past 2 then I am in bad shape and trading say a mimic vat or trinket mage is the least of my worries, UB has plenty of other things to deal with the larger drops, especially now with GftT.
you underrate throne of geth
Maybe I do, but I simply dont think there is enough good things to do with it to warrant its use in competitive decks as of yet (though that doesnt mean we wont hit that critical mass with the next set)
I think ive gone over quite a few of the reasons to run Tezz if you are willing to read my (and a few others) long posts.
Ill list a few options here though I guess to sum a few things up.
Against control you gain a planeswalker that isnt named Jace which at times is relevant.
You pick up a win condition where say Jace Beleren is only CA, Tezz is CA that can win a game extremely fast.
Massive synergy with JtMS making the squadron hawk plan of UW caw-go look like a silly little school girl.
While the original artifact package of say Nick Spagnolo's UB control deck that won NY States was good early and gave the deck some interesting plans with Trinket Mage, it didnt really have what it takes to continue on in the format (with more standard UB lists like the one from California taking the popular spot) What Tezz does is allow that list (with obviously a few other changes) to actively abuse those early artifacts that are super easy found (between trinket mage, jace and tezz) to become major threats in the mid to late game where in the past they were pretty dead.
Even a small "ultimate" can swing a ton of games against aggro, especially since tezz can protect himself very easily. both a +1 to search or a -1 to make a token protect tezz from quick death in ways that a lot of other walkers cant do.
At least in my version there really wasn't THAT much effort into making him fit. It just took Nick Spagnolo's original list and a few other swaps to make him work pretty well IMO. Options that get brought in are things like Mimic Vat that were already pretty good in UB anyways and which play very well into the tezz plan as well as the general UB plan. The only non-standard swap that I felt compelled to make was Myr Battlesphere over Wurmcoil Engine due to the synergy of those two cards...I think wurmcoil would still be find, but its not the same beating, Battlesphere is pretty good against aggro anyways, although if youre really low then the lifelink could be relevant occasionally vs 5 bodies hitting play.
there are other things too, but thats a quick rundown of a few off the top o my head.
I know from my own play running 3/4 chalices that at times I get 2 chalices very early game...if this happens to me with 3 then I could only imagine with 6...it happens enough where I draw into chalice when I dont want to at 3 that I generally dont even both with 4. Maybe im just unlucky or maybe you are very lucky. Hey at least with jace and tezz its semi easy to shoo them away I guess.
I was dubious about them as well, which is why it took me 3 or 4 versions of the build to try them out. I have been pretty happy with them so far though, and against a number of aggro decks ive tested with they have clearly been all-stars. What number do I blow it at? Whatever number I need to. 2 seems to be the most common number, and fortunatly I dont really run too much at 2 beyond Ratchet Bomb, about the only thing really is Phyrexian Revoker, but in the one or two instances where I had both out, I gladly gave up the revoker to kill multiple targets across the board. Id also gladly give up an everflowing chalice to kill multiple kuldotha tokens or whatever tokens/memnites you need killed. Generally if I need to ramp Ratchet bomb up past 2 then I am in bad shape and trading say a mimic vat or trinket mage is the least of my worries, UB has plenty of other things to deal with the larger drops, especially now with GftT.
Maybe I do, but I simply dont think there is enough good things to do with it to warrant its use in competitive decks as of yet (though that doesnt mean we wont hit that critical mass with the next set)
I really like Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and I want it to work. But I don't want it to work too hard. The ultimate question that must be answered is: is the card advantage it nets you really tantamount to diluting the draw-go nature of Scars U/B Control? Deck lists are fairly loose, so I could imagine losing answers for artifacts or whatever. I don't know. I may have to visualize it. See it in action for myself.
Yah, most of the lists thus far are really loose...there isnt much I can do about mine tho (well okay okay I could drop Sphinx finally and run something better, but bleh, thats no fun! rawr) until I have a firmer grasp of what my meta is gonna look like. For example, I am loving loving loving Phyrexian Revoker....will it actually be good in my meta though as a MD option? I have no idea....I cant really tune a list until I know at least a bit more..so for now the list remains a bit loose in order to keeping trying out new ideas to see what really works (hell I dont even have real proof that Tezz builds are actually statistically any better or worse than non tezz lists...I just know that I win the majority of my games as of this point..which I also did with non-tezz UB) About the only thing I really now is that if you really really like permission then Tezz probably wont work for you..he really works better in a tap-out sort of frame, but thats really about all the info ive got for you beyond what has already been said.
Games today for anybody who may or may not care!
I played eldrazi 5 times...3 with Silvestri's Poison UB list (with one or two changes)
Game 1: turn 1 inkmoth, turn 2 GftT a joraga, turn 3 Contagion Clasp a Joraga that he didnt pump cause he also played wall and play E. Chalice for 1, turn 4 drop vatmother, turn 5 tezz/win...Joraga was his main plan and he wasnt able to ramp into anything big at all.
Game 2: turn 1 inkmoth (I sense a pattern here) turn 2 E. Chalice, turn 3 E.Chalice and swing with inkmoth, turn 4 vatmother and clasp a Wurmcoil Engine (woot 5/5 engine not as scary, lolz), turn 5 Tezz (I sense a pattern here) I dont win this turn but that was pretty much it, he just cant really do anything to a 5/5 flying poison guy and even if he attacks with wurmcoil his lifegain means nothing.
Game 3: turn 1 inkmoth (see the pattern yet?) turn 2 GftT a joraga, turn 3 Plague Myr, turn 4 (this game was a tad bit slower) Vatmother, he plays a Steel Hellkite...turn 5 I play Tezz (weird I know) and make an inkmoth a 5/5, he blocks cause he has to or its lethal...I play another inkmoth at that point and the Titan he grabs on his next turn can really do nothing about another flying 5/5 token.
These 3 games were all pretty easy and obviously really consistant....I just dont know yet how it works vs anything else as these were the first games ive tried with it...Seems decent though with maybe some tuning...its nice that you can SB pretty aggressivly toward better control though if you need it.
I played 2 more against him with a modified version of my own UB Tezz deck and won those games pretty easily too, they were slower though and just more of the same from past reports so I wont go into it.
I also played against a naya sorta vengevine deck that has bare bones amounts of Red and suprisingly enough Black (although he never played anything black MD so I dunno what it was for) I only went 1-2 in these games, but 1 and 3 were pretty close games (I lost game 2 pretty badly)
Game 1 I am on the draw...He opens with birds turn 1, and Fauna Shaman turn 2 while I played land go...turn 3 he drops out a Lotus Cobra pitching another and grabbing a Sun Titan which hed be able to play next turn pretty easy. Of course I just play Black Sun's Zenith for 1 (not enough mana to kill the shaman, but meh) and set him back a number of turns...turn 4 he plays squadron hawk (which is really what killed me finally this game) to set up vengevines (which he shoulda probably just done instead of go after Sun Titan which he thought would help protect his guys from doom blades and what not) I tec edge a raging ravine to try to keep him off of mana so he cant tap shaman and play dude dude and get vengevine back...he rips a land and hardcasts vine, which I kill...I play out Tezz and Mimic Vat at some point here and I am pretty far ahead...I then draw like 7 lands in a row and let him back in it after he drops tezz (cunning sparkmage/collar killed my 5/5 guy I had sigh) I did get acidic slime on my vat here but it was too little too late as sword of body and mind wrecked me. I could have easily won this but had some really terrible mid game draws...oh well
Game 2 I had a decent starting hand on the play and was able to kill off 2x Fauna Shamans, but he found a hawk and 2x Vengevine and was able to beat me up before I could develop a decent game state.
Game 3 (good thing it wasnt a real match right, or I wouldnt have gotten this game.)
This was a really long one...I kept getting out win conditions which he scrambled to protect...The real winner this game was Consecrated Sphinx...his deck has no instant removal MD outside of sparkmage/collar and he never played either this game...I drew like 10 extra cards off of him and was able to stay well ahead...he did actually get me to 1 at one point this game from hawks and garruk tokens, but during that trinket mage hit and landed on a mimic vat and elixer shenanigans meant that 1 was as close as he ever got. The only bummer really was that it took forever, he was able to kill like 3 jaces this game with Squadron Hawk (before I landed Sphinx, he could have gone after me, but Jace would have killed him before he got me to that 1 life scenario) and Sphinx is a slow clock when you have to leave him home most of the time to keep hawks in check...Myr Battlesphere finally hit late to seal the deal....even at the 1 life the game was not really ever in jeopardy. Revoker could have been a much bigger deal in this matchup, but the only time I saw it was game 3 and he was only able to stop garruk for a turn before he was used to chump a token.
Even though I went 1-2 against this deck I feel decent about the matchup overall, and while I wouldnt by any means call it favorable (vengevine is semi tough unless you can land tezz early and make a token, and even then he seemed to be able to deal with singleton blockers pretty well) I could have easily won game 1 and game 3 felt pretty good...The game I lost he had a great hand and my hand was only average and the draws werent great either...I needed a mana leak turn 5 and didnt draw it till turn 6 so baneslayer angel stuck for a turn or two...such is life. Fortunatly I dont actually play against many vengevine decks here though so I am not concerned there either.
Nice write up Coma. I enjoyed reading it. Can you post a deck list or a link to the deck list that you used for a better understanding of it all?
I see you used Silvestri's UB poison list, so that list would be helpful and I guess whatever list you used to play against that naya deck
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Originally posted by Deimosfobos
BTW... what a silly question, I guess I should go to Ux control forum and ask: How come Mana Leak has a place in Ux control?
A friend of mine has come up with quite an interesting build with Tezzeret and has been posting pretty solid results against RUG, Valakut and UB Control.
Also I know you are going to laugh at the land count but it has been testing well for him too be honest when I first saw the deck I laughed at him for calling it competitive.
A friend of mine has come up with quite an interesting build with Tezzeret and has been posting pretty solid results against RUG, Valakut and UB Control.
Also I know you are going to laugh at the land count but it has been testing well for him too be honest when I first saw the deck I laughed at him for calling it competitive.
Honestly, man, this seems pretty terrible. I don't want to rain all over the parade, but I just have to be honest with you. What is this deck trying to do? Ornithopter and Memnite are horrible cards without consistent ways to pump. Fortunately, we have three cards that could turn Memnite and Ornithopter into threats: Tempered Steel, Steel Overseer, and Tezzeret. So let's start there.
But first, again, what is this deck trying to do? Are you aiming to be the beatdown in most of your match ups, or are you the control? This deck is somewhere in the middle, and not in a good midrangey sort of way. You're running counter spells and Contagion Clasps, why? Again, are you trying to beat or control? Decide what you are, first, then go from there.
It seems you're leaning toward an aggro approach, so add some Steels and Overseers, and drop the Jaces, counters, Clasps, and other stuff. You don't want to rely on Tezzeret as your only win condition. A bunch of 0/2 Ornithopters is probably the worst board position ever, so you definitely need more ways than Tezzeret to turn your crappy weenies into decent bodies.
Anyway, I though I'd share the latest incarnation of my build. This has been testing very well. Mimic Vat is just an all star. Why wasn't this card being played more? I've been out of type two for quite a while, but the Vat just seems balls out awesome in a meta of Titans. Anyway, I've tweaked some numbers, added the Ratchet Bombs, and exchanged Leaks for Stoic Rebuttals (I don't want to type out the entire reason here, I'll explain later; it was a deeply intense and emotional personal decision). Oh, and I took out the Preordains. Another long story.
I'm pretty comfortable with this current MD. I've even started considering a sideboard. I would like Spreading Seas somewhere in my 75, just because GSZ made Valakut THAT much better. Definitely some more counter magic: Spell Pierce, possibly something like Flashfreeze. It's a tossup between Nighthawk and Crusader at the moment. I may end up finding room for both, especially if both Boros and infect.dec get as big as I think they will. And of course, disruption. Any combination of Inquisition and Memoricide will be fine, potentially Duress. Oh, and Phyrexian Revoker.
Damn, too many sideboard cards, not enough slots! I'm really loving UB right now.
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I see you used Silvestri's UB poison list, so that list would be helpful and I guess whatever list you used to play against that naya deck
Both of those lists can be found earlier in this thread without me having to repost that information.
@ your SB
I still like nighthawk over crusader unless youre going more all in towards poison. At the least I think if youre running crusader you should find the spots for inkmoth nexus. It works vs Valakut cause Valakut cant do anything if you pump an inmoth with tezz, youll likely win faster (assuming you did something else to slow him down a turn or so at some point from turn 1-4) so inkmoth would work. Inkmoth would also further your cause vs boros and other aggro more so obviously than tech edge, and would make crusader that much better.
Do I think inkmoth is better in UB right now? umm, not really, but Silvestri's list makes me hopeful and I could see people winning things with something along those lines. Still inkmoth + Crusader seems like an obvious conclusion.
@ dpg20
that list seems pretty bad really...yes we all see that 22 lands is not gonna work...not consistantly enough to make me want to bother with it at least. I also dont really see much point in running Grand Architect here along with treasure mage which seems to only nab kinda bleh artifacts that dont really impact things enough quickly enough imo. I dont get how you wouldnt be running a MD Wurmcoil or Battlesphere here to go with that treasure mage. You need it as an out in case you cant get tezz to stick and a MD threat beyond ornithopter seems good.
Honestly, man, this seems pretty terrible. I don't want to rain all over the parade, but I just have to be honest with you. What is this deck trying to do? Ornithopter and Memnite are horrible cards without consistent ways to pump. Fortunately, we have three cards that could turn Memnite and Ornithopter into threats: Tempered Steel, Steel Overseer, and Tezzeret. So let's start there.
But first, again, what is this deck trying to do? Are you aiming to be the beatdown in most of your match ups, or are you the control? This deck is somewhere in the middle, and not in a good midrangey sort of way. You're running counter spells and Contagion Clasps, why? Again, are you trying to beat or control? Decide what you are, first, then go from there.
It seems you're leaning toward an aggro approach, so add some Steels and Overseers, and drop the Jaces, counters, Clasps, and other stuff. You don't want to rely on Tezzeret as your only win condition. A bunch of 0/2 Ornithopters is probably the worst board position ever, so you definitely need more ways than Tezzeret to turn your crappy weenies into decent bodies.
Anyway, I though I'd share the latest incarnation of my build. This has been testing very well. Mimic Vat is just an all star. Why wasn't this card being played more? I've been out of type two for quite a while, but the Vat just seems balls out awesome in a meta of Titans. Anyway, I've tweaked some numbers, added the Ratchet Bombs, and exchanged Leaks for Stoic Rebuttals (I don't want to type out the entire reason here, I'll explain later; it was a deeply intense and emotional personal decision). Oh, and I took out the Preordains. Another long story.
I'm pretty comfortable with this current MD. I've even started considering a sideboard. I would like Spreading Seas somewhere in my 75, just because GSZ made Valakut THAT much better. Definitely some more counter magic: Spell Pierce, possibly something like Flashfreeze. It's a tossup between Nighthawk and Crusader at the moment. I may end up finding room for both, especially if both Boros and infect.dec get as big as I think they will. And of course, disruption. Any combination of Inquisition and Memoricide will be fine, potentially Duress. Oh, and Phyrexian Revoker.
Damn, too many sideboard cards, not enough slots! I'm really loving UB right now.
I agree his list is terrible lol I am sticking to traditional UB Control for now as I don't forsee Tezzeret making an impact on standard.
I'm not saying ur list is bad it seems quite solid I hope for your sake that he does turn out playable but I just don't see it happening with the current cardpool in Standard.
I agree his list is terrible lol I am sticking to traditional UB Control for now as I don't forsee Tezzeret making an impact on standard.
I'm not saying ur list is bad it seems quite solid I hope for your sake that he does turn out playable but I just don't see it happening with the current cardpool in Standard.
I'm pretty confident that Tezzeret will see type two play, even to the point of making some friendly wagers on this very board. Most of the pros seem to think he's a solid card, so I'm assuming we'll see him at PT:Paris in some fashion.
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I see what you're saying here. In the testing I've done, I've never been flooded by Chalices and Spheres in the early game. I don't think six is a critical mass number. I remember playing Mythic last season, and hating the idea of running eight one drop mana dorks. I thought it was too much. But I only was flooded with Birds and Hierarchs two or three times out of ten games. I really think six is the right number. It gives me enough mana in the mirror to gain an advantage, as well as allowing me to keep up somewhat with the RUGs, BUGs, and Valakuts of the format.
I look at Sphere similar to how I look at Rampant Growth. Technically, Rampant draws you a card, while Sphere doesn't, but fundamentally they work the same in my eyes. You're making a down payment on mana advantage next turn.
I just hate Trinket Mage. It's a waste of a slot to me. Mage into Chalice isn't backbreaking, and as a body Mage is significantly worse in this kind of deck than, say, Sea Gate Oracle. I really don't see the need to run Mage in this if all I'm doing is fetching out Chalices.
I'll consider the advice. I like the direction the deck is headed. I've considered taking out both Deprive and Stoic Rebuttal in favor of, well, something. This list is more akin to a tap out UB, and I often find myself sitting on counterspells in my hand with too much land tapped. I'll probably end up adding a Doom Blade and Disfigure, or something like that.
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I'll try Mimic Vat, I do find that the semblance anvil is less effective; I find often my choice is dropping my ish sah or one of my mana arts to it.
I did try Lux cannon out, it was in the original list, but i found it was too slow. I kept feeling like if I only drew a way to deal with the 4-5 1/1s they played in the first few turns i would feel better about it.
all is dust is in there for a sweeper, I'm thinking I might replace it with the black zenith in the sb, because i can reduce the size of their creatures, and slowly kill them off with proliferate.
Eternity vessel works well with the proliferate, and keeps reseting my life each turn, forcing the opponent to deal any time i get it out, 20+ damage on a turn to kill me. It's fun
I originally had 4 spreading seas in with the manlands (i've proliferated poison counters as a wincon, especially with a 2nd turn attack). I found that the spreading seas spots were not helping the deck, and the tectonic edges fixed the problem. I have been mana screwed a few times since. originally i had 1 marsh flats and 1 scalding tarn in the deck, but I kept getting them after I already had all the swamps and islands out of my deck :(. bad luck i guess.
This is fine in a deck youre playin with buds, or maybe even FNM...but not for any sort of actual tournament. So 8 colorless lands at your own risk.
@ LostCon
I appreciate the idea behind your mana ramp, I really do...your comparisons feel off to me though as an attack with those mythic creatures was game over with Sovereign out while at the same time ramping into that instant sort of win condition. That ramp at 1 mana was also obviously much better/faster than sphere/chalice (although prone to creature removal I guess...but if artifacts get popular then im sure it will be similar here). My point still stands that if you want to do legit ramping then you need to actually ramp for reals and run something like rug that is built to abuse that ramp. Lotus Cobra and Oracle are much more effective means of both ramp and in Oracle's case fixing. I dont at all mean that you shouldnt run chalice (maybe sphere, but I really hate sphere tbh) but 6 seems like you are really dedicating too much space, the type of control you can run with UB just doesnt need that much. The comparison to Rampant Growth also doesnt really apply so much as that card is much more appropriate in a Ramp style deck built around ramping much more so than either tap out or permission control. Sure it could fit into something like RUG but then RUG is designed to work with ramp and without it isnt super hot.
The reason I approve of Trinket mage is cause if youre gonna run the mage then you can/should both run chalice AND brittle effigy/elixer as well, this yields you both answers and a way to get chalice to ramp into a 6 drop on turn 5 if you need to do so. Its still a blocker even if only a 2/2 instead of a 1/3 and I am plenty happy to trade it with things like Goblin Guide or whatever as opposed to just sitting around having a stare off.
@Patsfan
yah memnite doesnt really do much for a control deck...even with tezz...although tbh I dont really like Ornithopter either, im not too worried about evasion on my tezz tokens as I have a lot of ways to get through blockers (removal/jace etc) I guess as a 1 of is a possibility for a trinket mage package if you really need multiple blockers (in fact I had a game today where that would have worked nicely to buy me an extra turn I guess).
@ everybody
Was testing my version out a bit more today, had some more good results, although most of it wasnt full matches, just game 1s vs a handful of decks as the UB SB is full of good options and the meta isnt really very set atm so a SB would be all guesswork atm anyways. While this one day of course isnt a full sample of testing, it is useful to show how some of these games play out. For example I find with this deck most often I use Tezz's +1 ability and it only takes a turn or two of doing this before games are ending via tezz ultimate and a few beats.
Played a few against RG infect (growths, assault strobe, crazy fast but fragile deck)
First game I kept a hand with sketchy lands that almost came back to bite me, I was on the draw and had only citpt lands so I was a full turn behind till turn 4/5 basically...Phyrexian Revoker was again a MD all start shutting of Blight Mamba's Regen which let me kill it after he swung for 8 poison counters on turn 3. I was able to drop out a ratchet bomb also at some point which killed the only other creature he landed after I leaked 2 others. Consecrated Sphinx and Jace sealed it from there.
Second game I lost but it was close, I thought I had the board stable at 9 poison counters, but he was able to find a smoldering spires to shut off a tezz token and he was able to sneak through the last counter...this is the game above I was talking about where Trinket Mage into Ornithopter/Memnite would have actually saved me, heh.
Third game opponent got stuck on lots of pump spells but not enough creatures, so it was pretty easy, tezz and myr battlesphere won it pretty quickly.
Second match was against a mono green eldrazi deck running Steel Hellkites instead of wurmcoil engines (I still dont get why all of a sudden hellkite is in so many lists)
Game 1 he dropped Hellkite turn 4 but I bounced it twice with Jace then got a Consecrated Sphinx out which died to hellkite, but went on Mimic Vat. Was pretty easy to control from there till I could kill hellkite with doom blade (doom blade is amazing..dont run only GftT) Tectonic Edge and mana leak was able to keep him off of enough mana to drop his Ulamog.
Game 2 wasnt very close, I phyrexian revoked his Joraga Treespeaker. GftT on birds of paradise which went on Mimic Vat shut off Steel Hellkite and Turn 6 Myr Battlesphere Turn 7 Tezz sealed it up. Revoker is better and better the more I play with it. Shutting off Joraga is pretty win.
Third "match" was against another mono green eldrazi (yawn I know) but one running wurmcoils and a MD gaea's revenge which is pretty irritating, lol.
Game 1 was pretty much a blowout for him. I was on the draw, He had a ton of ramp and my mana leaks that I drew into were quickly pointless...I was close at one point with mimic vat hitting the board and jace out, but next turn 2x Summoning trap for primeval titan and gaeas revenge sealed the deal (plus a wurmcoil I had bounced with Jace)
Game 2 was sorta the opposite, on the play I had mana leak for his explore then cultivate (I have found I have to delay his mana ramp or I am a major underdog, and leak on walls and titans just runs me into summoning trap so yah) He finally dropped joraga which I doom bladed. He was seemingly stuck on 4 mana for a turn or two after that so I was able to get a pretty good board with Tezz and Mimic Vat and then a Myr Battlesphere. He finally dropped a Wurmcoil and Primeval Titan but at that point it was largely irrelevant as doom blade got the wurm and something got the lifelink token and I was able to just blow him up with battlesphere and tezz ultimate.
Next was Valakut but only one game then I ran out o time.
I was on play and kept a nice hand of darkslick darkslick tec edge tec edge jace doom blade mana leak. Naturally I drew a few more lands, killed overgrown battlement, killed 2 valakuts and mana leaked a primeval titan...kinda a boring game. Jace fate-sealed him a few turns while he had no cards in hand and no shuffle effects, but I killed him with Sphinx before I could ultimate him which made me sad, lol.
All in all each time I play this build I am more and more happy with it. I cant wait to run up against more new decks to see how it does vs some more newer things, but I am very positive about how good the deck is at this stage and I feel like this should be reasonably easy to tweak to fit in the coming months.
I'll consider adding Trinket Mage. I've tested Mage in a thousand different Tezz decks and I'm consistently disappointed. Perhaps that's why I have a bias against it. But I'll consider finding room for it.
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Would you rather tap out to play sphere on turn 2, or tap out to doom blade a lotus cobra? Or have mana leak up for their turn 3 drop? Or drop a ratchet bomb to clear the board of little dudes? or whatever sort of set up you might want. Or maybe its turn 5 and they just played a Titan...would you rather jace into land land sphere or land land doom blade?
In other words, those 2 to 3 spots you are giving up to sphere or chalice that go beyond what most people run could easily be answers to problems that you might face. Control is about answers and how easy it is to find them...Even RUG is succeptable to this when occasionally it ramps and filters into more ramp and filters..why drag yourself into this when you dont have to with a worse version of ramp?
Why is your version better than BUG or RUG, explain this to me and ill leave you alone ;p Dont just say "tezz" either, cause I dont buy it since you only run 2 tezz (and 3 jace only too boot!) ;p I guess you have a 2 color mana base vs 3 and you get tectonic edge? That hasnt stopped RUG from doing really well anyways.
On the Trinket mage thing...I didnt really like him much either until Tezzeret came along and made those artifacts he nabs relevant in the mid/late game, trinket mage really comes through and shines for me a lot now, where before I was pretty bleh about him...yay its turn 10 ill trinket mage for chalice???? now its turn 10 and ill trinket mage for a 5/5 or another piece of the puzzle for the ultimate or ill recur elixer off my mimic vatted mage or whatever...Is it the BEST way to build this deck? I dunno, but I know my results are very promising so far and that thus far trinket mage has really never been dead for me. I was right there with you man, I hated trinket mage with only SoM...now I dunno but hes pretty solid now. The only negative with him is that a few times ive been able to pull out a lot of artifacts early before landing tezz which made his +1 miss, but it has never really swung a game badly and at the least its always been a pseudo-shuffle for me for Jace.
On that note ill try to get up an updated list at some point tonight or tomorrow.
edit:
I found this list on channelfireball that is interesting looking for tezz control running a poison theme which I know some have mentioned and ive just not gotten around to tryin out.
3x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4x Phyrexian Vatmother
4x Plague Myr
2x Tumble Magnet
4x Contagion Clasp
4x Everflowing Chalice
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Go for the Throat
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
5x Swamp
4x Island
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Inkmoth Nexus
Trinket Mage is a good card. There's nothing wrong with pulling your ramp Artifacts, especially if it's your first. (They still help you activate manlands, pop an Effigy, power through Mana Leak, etc.) But besides that, fetching up instant exile removal is pretty strong. Equipment-wise, Darksteel Axe is the obvious application but Basilisk Collar is also really good too if you're running more creatures. A singleton Voltaic Key is a wonderful target with which to abuse Lux Cannon if you have them in your 75, a strong anti-control card from the SB if nothing else. Of course, there's also Elixir shenanigans (and the 2/2 body) against aggro. It's a shame there aren't any good creatures for Trinket Mage to nab, only 2-3 questionable choices at best.
I think Sphere of the Suns is pretty worthless, since I see little reason to run it over Mox Opal. Both color fix but Mox Opal can actually accelerate the turn it comes down and can beautifully be fetched off a Trinket Mage. I suppose that implies you're running a "machine" type of list and not merely using Tezz as a 2-of supplement in a fairly normal UB list... but I don't really think Tezz's home is in a normal UB list as nothing more than Jace's Brainstorm buddy. Trinket Mage can already do that while taking up much less deckspace. :/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Now after some initial contributions, I get to talk about my own list finally. It's most similar to LawfulNeutral's Machine Red modification, although I keep the alternate Poison win-con... no real disadvantage when you get it on your land now, not that Necropede is a bad card or anything.
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Island
2 Swamp
4 Tectonic Edge
// Creatures
4 Etched Champion
4 Trinket Mage
4 Perilous Myr
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Brittle Effigy
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Mox Opal
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Throne of Geth
1 Voltaic Key
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Wall of Tanglecord
3 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Lux Cannon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
I've been very happy with having two Brittle Effigy in the deck. One sometimes isn't enough and I don't think I've ever really required a third, so I think I hit the sweet spot on the first try.
Basilisk Collar might seem like a strange choice but the ability to allow my weenies to hold Grave Titans and ☺☺☺☺ at bay is actually really good. It also lets Etched Champion race effectively by buffering the life total and it sets up gimmicky but effective Perilous Myr shenanigans.
I don't feel like Voltaic Key does much in the MD but it's a really good singleton to have available for my SB Lux Cannons. Occasionally, it does serve to allow a single Etched Champion or Wurmcoil Engine to play both offense and defense, which is nice.
I'm considering replacing the Key (moving it to the side over the nigh-useless GY hate card :P) with a Darksteel Axe. Aside the obvious application with Tezz himself, the fact it makes respectable beaters out of my little creatures and gives Inkmoth Nexus a much faster clock is notable.
Throne of Geth, still fairly obvious IMO. It's the cheapest, fastest way to proliferate, pushing Tezz's ability to finish games out of nowhere in the mid/late-game. It also lets Perilous Myr double as a colorless Shock (or a build-your-own removal spell with Collar). It splits Wurmcoil Engine when two dudes are better than one, helps it avoid bounce, or ups your Artifact count for Tezz's ultimate. It's what enables Inkmoth Nexus poison as a viable alternate win-con and abuses SB Lux Cannons against control. It makes something useful from your opponent's Artifact removal and hoses enemy Wurmcoil Engines in combat... it's surprisingly versatile, quite possibly the best Artifact in the deck.
Less obvious... why Etched Champion? With 20+ Artifacts I'm liable to have metalcraft for it a vast majority of the time. Do people just underestimate the power of Pro-Colors? Seriously, he's amazing. Admittedly, he's been somewhat underwhelming against all the janky Artifact decks I keep running into more often than I should right now :(, but against most real decks that don't have a bunch of Myr and colorless removal (**** Contagion Clasp) he's really good. ;/ He's very difficult to remove and can block/swing past everything short of Wurmcoil Engine. Combined with Tar Pit and slinging Myrs, it's how I so easily chip away at opponents to set up for a late-game Tezz-bomb... shame those pro-colors prevent Tezz from buffing his puny body, that's the only drawback.
Perilous Myr is an Artifact and a wonderful anti-aggro creature. It shouldn't be that hard to see what he brings to the table... but just as relevant a question, why him over Necropede? Numerous reasons... The two damage hits just kills so many more things than a -1/-1 counter, especially if he's hit by removal (e.g. Bolt -> kill Goblin Guide) or I have the Throne of Geth interaction early (T3 Throne following up T2 Myr -> EFF YOO FAUNA SHAMAN). And remember that I'm pushing the DD angle (with Tezz's ultimate) more than I am the poison angle, so I prefer the real damage over poison damage. It also hits Planeswalkers, which is occasionally relevant, and can abuse Basilisk Collar to take down even bomby creatures.
Wurmcoil Engine is a-ok where he is, I think. I originally tried Precursor Golem there, as he's cheaper and creates more dudes for Tezz, but Wurmcoil is a better defender anyway (lifelink) and doesn't threaten to "die to removal" as easily. I haven't tried other potential Artifact bombs, namely Myr Battlesphere (legion of chump blockers, much stronger interaction with Tezz, innate resistance to bounce... still much inferior in the face of targetted removal), so I can't say if Wurmcoil is the best choice but he's been working pretty well and the six-cost is notable at being able to come down T4 on a lucky draw.
Lastly, the playset of both Inkmoth Nexus and Tectonic Edge has given me no problems casting colored cards. I mean, look at my list and literally the only thing I need colors for is Trinket Mage, the PWs, and activating Tar Pit. Tectonic Edge I've found to be necessary to help shore up an otherwise difficult ramp matchup (being that I have no counters), plus they kill manlands and can give me a huge mana advantage in control mirrors when I have Artifact sources going. Inkmoth Nexus was originally considered for its ability to activate as an Artifact and work with Tezz's ultimate, yet it can also be a win-con in its own right and is yet another speed bump for aggro to work through, especially against annoying Flyers that are otherwise hard to answer without the Myr-Throne combo.
The worst match-ups, besides ramp, are quick aggro swarms which is where BSZ comes in from the board. I haven't seen enough red decks to get a good feel for Wall of Tanglecord, so I can't say how effective it is but they're thoeretically good! They could probably just be Spreading Seas as another means to combat ramp. Nihil Spellbomb has been useless even against the occasional Vengevine deck, since I find they usually play around it easily just by recurring the first Vengevine they dump into the GY. ;/ Lux Cannon is amazing against control decks.
It basically plays like a control deck, though with a heavy Artifact package instead of counters I am forced to be more proactive. Instead of trying to preserve my life total long enough to drop bombs and take control of the mid-game from aggro, I'm dropping cheap 2-for-1 bodies (Myr, Mage) and producing huge 5/5 dudes for protection as early as Turn 3 with T2 accel. Ramp matchup is weaker without the counters but my limited ability to ramp alongside them, then hold them down with Tec Edge gives me a little game against them. (Phyrexian Revoker is surprisingly good against ramp decks that aren't Valakut, too. It shuts down mana dorks and is another Artifact to count toward Tezz.) Control matchups are actually quite easy I have so many little advantages over them -- I have the mana advantage with my Artifact ramp, Etched Champion is basically Tar Pits 5-8, and Tezz can come out of nowhere to knock off Jace when they think they've won the Jace war.
A typical win is chipping the opponent down in the 8-12 range with early beats and unavoidable damage sources (Myr trigger, Champion, Tar Pit), then bombing them with Tezz's ultimate. Sometimes that isn't necessary and I just naturally get there with my cheap beats and CA generation, sometimes an aggressive start (e.g. T1 Artifact, T2 Chalice, T3 Tezz into 5/5 Haste dude) is too much for them to handle. Though I have pulled it off a few times, winning via poison is actually rare since it tends to require multiple Inkmoths or Thrones to make it a reasonable clock.
Just to demonstrate the extreme: One game against a Valakut opponent. He didn't god-ramp into T4 Titan and beat my ass, so we had a good back-and-forth in the mid-game. I removed his first Titan with a Brittle Effigy and Tec Edge both Valakuts, so he couldn't burn me out there. A few turns later, he drops an Avenger of Zendikar with eight lands and a Khalni on-board... ouch. ;/ And I hadn't been putting much pressure on him, so he's still at 17 life and I have one turn before I'm trampled by Plant Army. I do, however, have a ton of Artifacts on the board and a Tezzeret in hand. I untap, Tar Pit him to 14. Second main phase I play down Tezz, proliferate him with Throne of Geth, activate my three on-board Inkmoth Nexus and burn him for lethal. \m/ A four-mana Fireball for 14? The lifegain is just gravy. There's my "showcase" example of his ridiculous ultimate.
The more fun question would have been "what happens when you turn Darksteel Axe into a 5/5 artifact creature equipment then equip it on another Darksteel Axe 5/5 artifact creature equipment!?" lawl ;p
On a serious note:
my only comment on the "machine" build is how is it as good or better than existing UB control decks? I see a theorhetical ability to be faster with seemingly more early beats (although you could probably build a UB build with MD nighthawks and Skinrenders and maybe Percy that would be as fast or faster I suppose) But I also see a large number of slow or clunky artifacts that look really terrible without tezz on board. Still though I like the idea, and it can only get better a short time from now when the next set comes out even if it doesnt work out fully this time.
On my deck, you note that Tezz is merely a "brainstorm buddy" for Jace...While I did make a point of that amazing interaction (tezz actually leads to more CA with Jace while Trinket Mage is only a shuffle effect really, which isnt bad also ;p) but that isnt the only good use of the card. While I dont abuse Tezz as fully obviously as your list, I do make good use of trying to limit the bad artifacts that are really only there for Tezz (like throne of geth for example) while still keeping the total number of artifacts mathematically high enough to warrant Tezz's inclusion in the build. With 12/13 artifacts (myr battlesphere being semi key here) I am generally able to utilize Tezz's Ultimate for a win a turn or two after he drops also and even on occasions where I dont actually finish the game that soon, it effectivly is ending the game that soon by major board advantage brought out by both the pseudo tutoring effect of his +1 or the army creation of his -1. Here cards like brittle effigy, ratchet bomb and mimic vat really excell by creating a much more controlling game state and a lot stronger defense as opposed to again throne of geth that really isnt contributing to board presence at all on its own, I really try to avoid cards that do nothing on their own without enablers. I think I went over the list earlier but; Chalice ramps into things, Effigy removes things, Mimic Vat makes playing creatures against UB a scary proposition (yes if nothing else happens Mimic Vat does nothing I guess you could argue but Id rather stare down a Throne of Geth before a Mimic Vat across the table wouldnt you?) Ratchet Bomb kills all sorts of threats, Elixer of Immortality is great against aggro and valakut and enables silly trinket mage and jace tricks. So by running a more bare bones and not all in on tezz plan I am hopefully limiting my dead draws and bad spells count by a signifigant margin compared to lists trying to run 20-26 artifacts. I just dont find enough of those artifacts to be actually worth it.
In other words I really focused on trying not to get too caught up by the prospect of tezz while still abusing him in UB. The main thing ive found here is that Tezz allows for a much more varied plan of attack and lets me hit opponents from different angles that the more straightforward UB control (like say wafo-tapos from worlds) cant do. Not that normal UB isnt amazing, cause it is..but its a lot of fun with tezz and some other options and my results are as good or better now than they were before.
I did note your approval of Phyrexian Revoker...he is still decent against Valakut (like out 4x PMyr in 4x PR would work for me) as PMyr is doing nothing in that matchup and PR shuts of battlement and more importantly Khalni Heart Expedition. But I dont know what your SB plan is all the way so maybe youre bringing out PMyr for something else already. I love this guy though, and while a lot of people are talking about him in SBs I am calling him as the sleeper dude of the set
I also think that this type of deck would either require very good mental math or a lot of writing down ☺☺☺☺, cuz you WILL be cycling through your deck with jace and tezz and knowing the order of the cards on the bottom will be important.
I reeaaallyy think that having enough counters here is key, but i could see a tapoutish approach being takin as well
Ratchet Bomb is a generically good card. Even if it hits your Chalices at zero and a few other cheap cards, the game state will dictate when it is and isn't necessary to blow it up. For example, T2 Ratchet Bomb for zero is liable to really screw with Kuldotha decks and is generally quick to sweep weenie decks in the 0-2 range. It's not even that bad at removing higher-CMC things if don't need an immediate answer, since proliferate or a single Voltaic Key can make cranking it up relatively quick.
Well, I've always stuck by UW myself. Indeed, I built a deck specifically built around abusing Tezzeret to his fullest, not a minor modification of standard UB to accomodate him. It was a fun project, I don't claim it to be the next big thing! That said, I still think he needs more than 10-12 Artifacts to work well. "On average" isn't good enough, Tezz still sucks when his +1 whiffs 40% of the time and you don't even have any Artifacts on the board he can animate. That makes him too dependent on Jace to get any work done.
You underrate Throne of Geth. I have plenty of experience with Mimic Vat in MBC, though, and I do loves me some of that...
You may just need to sleeve my deck up and realize how often you draw to much artifact ramp. There are games that I literally go without a Sphere AND Chalice.
The RUG matchup is actually one of my favorites. I have tons of spot removal to deal with their Titans, and Black Sun's Zenith to deal with Avenger, Cobra, and Oracle. Mimic Vat really shines in that MU. Being able to imprint a Vat with Frosty or Avenger is GG. Creeping Tar Pit knocks out Jace and Garruk and Wurmcoil is unmatched on the board, save for a resolved Frost Titan. Last night I had a game in which I had a Doomblade, Go for the Throat, Tezzeret, and Black Sun's Zenith in hand late in the game, with six land and a Sea Gate Oracle on the board. I had cast a Chalice the turn prior, which was at two counters. My opponent had just resolved an Inferno Titan, his only threat on the board (I had Tec Edged a Ravine and also swept earlier in the game). I dropped Tezzeret, +1, and found a Mimic Vat, which I dropped. I then Doombladed his Titan, and imprinted it on Vat. Next turn, he dropped Frost Titan, choosing to keep my Mimic Vat tapped down. I dug with Tezzeret again, found a Wurmcoil, cast it, and Throttled the Frost, choosing to imprint it on Vat.
Long story short, I eventually won on the back of an animated 5/5 Chalice and Frost Titan tokens. I would have never won that game without a. Tezzeret finding the Vat and Wurmcoil, and b. the extra mana Chalice gave me late game.
I absolutely see what you're saying about Sphere, and I've considered dropping them for two Ratchet Bombs. But the idea behind Chalice ramp, some minor artifact utility, and Tezzeret in the UB shell is a solid idea.
For reference, here is my current decklist:
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Sea Gate Oracle
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Spells
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Sphere of the Suns/Ratchet Bomb
3 Mimic Vat
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
2 Doomblade
2 Go for the Throat
3 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacombs
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Island
3 Swamp
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
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RRR Burn
GWU Bant Walker
RB Goblins
I think Consume the Meek is just better than the Engine. It has instant speed, it cost one less, and it removes creatures faster. Also, you cannot tap a creature in response to attacking.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Ill list a few options here though I guess to sum a few things up.
Against control you gain a planeswalker that isnt named Jace which at times is relevant.
You pick up a win condition where say Jace Beleren is only CA, Tezz is CA that can win a game extremely fast.
Massive synergy with JtMS making the squadron hawk plan of UW caw-go look like a silly little school girl.
While the original artifact package of say Nick Spagnolo's UB control deck that won NY States was good early and gave the deck some interesting plans with Trinket Mage, it didnt really have what it takes to continue on in the format (with more standard UB lists like the one from California taking the popular spot) What Tezz does is allow that list (with obviously a few other changes) to actively abuse those early artifacts that are super easy found (between trinket mage, jace and tezz) to become major threats in the mid to late game where in the past they were pretty dead.
Even a small "ultimate" can swing a ton of games against aggro, especially since tezz can protect himself very easily. both a +1 to search or a -1 to make a token protect tezz from quick death in ways that a lot of other walkers cant do.
At least in my version there really wasn't THAT much effort into making him fit. It just took Nick Spagnolo's original list and a few other swaps to make him work pretty well IMO. Options that get brought in are things like Mimic Vat that were already pretty good in UB anyways and which play very well into the tezz plan as well as the general UB plan. The only non-standard swap that I felt compelled to make was Myr Battlesphere over Wurmcoil Engine due to the synergy of those two cards...I think wurmcoil would still be find, but its not the same beating, Battlesphere is pretty good against aggro anyways, although if youre really low then the lifelink could be relevant occasionally vs 5 bodies hitting play.
there are other things too, but thats a quick rundown of a few off the top o my head.
I know from my own play running 3/4 chalices that at times I get 2 chalices very early game...if this happens to me with 3 then I could only imagine with 6...it happens enough where I draw into chalice when I dont want to at 3 that I generally dont even both with 4. Maybe im just unlucky or maybe you are very lucky. Hey at least with jace and tezz its semi easy to shoo them away I guess.
I was dubious about them as well, which is why it took me 3 or 4 versions of the build to try them out. I have been pretty happy with them so far though, and against a number of aggro decks ive tested with they have clearly been all-stars. What number do I blow it at? Whatever number I need to. 2 seems to be the most common number, and fortunatly I dont really run too much at 2 beyond Ratchet Bomb, about the only thing really is Phyrexian Revoker, but in the one or two instances where I had both out, I gladly gave up the revoker to kill multiple targets across the board. Id also gladly give up an everflowing chalice to kill multiple kuldotha tokens or whatever tokens/memnites you need killed. Generally if I need to ramp Ratchet bomb up past 2 then I am in bad shape and trading say a mimic vat or trinket mage is the least of my worries, UB has plenty of other things to deal with the larger drops, especially now with GftT.
Maybe I do, but I simply dont think there is enough good things to do with it to warrant its use in competitive decks as of yet (though that doesnt mean we wont hit that critical mass with the next set)
I really like Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and I want it to work. But I don't want it to work too hard. The ultimate question that must be answered is: is the card advantage it nets you really tantamount to diluting the draw-go nature of Scars U/B Control? Deck lists are fairly loose, so I could imagine losing answers for artifacts or whatever. I don't know. I may have to visualize it. See it in action for myself.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Games today for anybody who may or may not care!
I played eldrazi 5 times...3 with Silvestri's Poison UB list (with one or two changes)
Game 1: turn 1 inkmoth, turn 2 GftT a joraga, turn 3 Contagion Clasp a Joraga that he didnt pump cause he also played wall and play E. Chalice for 1, turn 4 drop vatmother, turn 5 tezz/win...Joraga was his main plan and he wasnt able to ramp into anything big at all.
Game 2: turn 1 inkmoth (I sense a pattern here) turn 2 E. Chalice, turn 3 E.Chalice and swing with inkmoth, turn 4 vatmother and clasp a Wurmcoil Engine (woot 5/5 engine not as scary, lolz), turn 5 Tezz (I sense a pattern here) I dont win this turn but that was pretty much it, he just cant really do anything to a 5/5 flying poison guy and even if he attacks with wurmcoil his lifegain means nothing.
Game 3: turn 1 inkmoth (see the pattern yet?) turn 2 GftT a joraga, turn 3 Plague Myr, turn 4 (this game was a tad bit slower) Vatmother, he plays a Steel Hellkite...turn 5 I play Tezz (weird I know) and make an inkmoth a 5/5, he blocks cause he has to or its lethal...I play another inkmoth at that point and the Titan he grabs on his next turn can really do nothing about another flying 5/5 token.
These 3 games were all pretty easy and obviously really consistant....I just dont know yet how it works vs anything else as these were the first games ive tried with it...Seems decent though with maybe some tuning...its nice that you can SB pretty aggressivly toward better control though if you need it.
I played 2 more against him with a modified version of my own UB Tezz deck and won those games pretty easily too, they were slower though and just more of the same from past reports so I wont go into it.
I also played against a naya sorta vengevine deck that has bare bones amounts of Red and suprisingly enough Black (although he never played anything black MD so I dunno what it was for) I only went 1-2 in these games, but 1 and 3 were pretty close games (I lost game 2 pretty badly)
Game 1 I am on the draw...He opens with birds turn 1, and Fauna Shaman turn 2 while I played land go...turn 3 he drops out a Lotus Cobra pitching another and grabbing a Sun Titan which hed be able to play next turn pretty easy. Of course I just play Black Sun's Zenith for 1 (not enough mana to kill the shaman, but meh) and set him back a number of turns...turn 4 he plays squadron hawk (which is really what killed me finally this game) to set up vengevines (which he shoulda probably just done instead of go after Sun Titan which he thought would help protect his guys from doom blades and what not) I tec edge a raging ravine to try to keep him off of mana so he cant tap shaman and play dude dude and get vengevine back...he rips a land and hardcasts vine, which I kill...I play out Tezz and Mimic Vat at some point here and I am pretty far ahead...I then draw like 7 lands in a row and let him back in it after he drops tezz (cunning sparkmage/collar killed my 5/5 guy I had sigh) I did get acidic slime on my vat here but it was too little too late as sword of body and mind wrecked me. I could have easily won this but had some really terrible mid game draws...oh well
Game 2 I had a decent starting hand on the play and was able to kill off 2x Fauna Shamans, but he found a hawk and 2x Vengevine and was able to beat me up before I could develop a decent game state.
Game 3 (good thing it wasnt a real match right, or I wouldnt have gotten this game.)
This was a really long one...I kept getting out win conditions which he scrambled to protect...The real winner this game was Consecrated Sphinx...his deck has no instant removal MD outside of sparkmage/collar and he never played either this game...I drew like 10 extra cards off of him and was able to stay well ahead...he did actually get me to 1 at one point this game from hawks and garruk tokens, but during that trinket mage hit and landed on a mimic vat and elixer shenanigans meant that 1 was as close as he ever got. The only bummer really was that it took forever, he was able to kill like 3 jaces this game with Squadron Hawk (before I landed Sphinx, he could have gone after me, but Jace would have killed him before he got me to that 1 life scenario) and Sphinx is a slow clock when you have to leave him home most of the time to keep hawks in check...Myr Battlesphere finally hit late to seal the deal....even at the 1 life the game was not really ever in jeopardy. Revoker could have been a much bigger deal in this matchup, but the only time I saw it was game 3 and he was only able to stop garruk for a turn before he was used to chump a token.
Even though I went 1-2 against this deck I feel decent about the matchup overall, and while I wouldnt by any means call it favorable (vengevine is semi tough unless you can land tezz early and make a token, and even then he seemed to be able to deal with singleton blockers pretty well) I could have easily won game 1 and game 3 felt pretty good...The game I lost he had a great hand and my hand was only average and the draws werent great either...I needed a mana leak turn 5 and didnt draw it till turn 6 so baneslayer angel stuck for a turn or two...such is life. Fortunatly I dont actually play against many vengevine decks here though so I am not concerned there either.
I see you used Silvestri's UB poison list, so that list would be helpful and I guess whatever list you used to play against that naya deck
Also I know you are going to laugh at the land count but it has been testing well for him too be honest when I first saw the deck I laughed at him for calling it competitive.
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Inkmoth Nexus
8 Island
2 Swamp
Creatures 15
2 Grand Architect
2 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Shimmer Myr
3 Treasure Mage
3 Into the Roil
2 Mana Leak
3 Stoic Rebuttal
Artifacts 8
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Knowledge Pool
2 Contagion Clasp
Planeswalkers 7
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Disfigure
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flashfreeze
2 Go for the Throat
Honestly, man, this seems pretty terrible. I don't want to rain all over the parade, but I just have to be honest with you. What is this deck trying to do? Ornithopter and Memnite are horrible cards without consistent ways to pump. Fortunately, we have three cards that could turn Memnite and Ornithopter into threats: Tempered Steel, Steel Overseer, and Tezzeret. So let's start there.
But first, again, what is this deck trying to do? Are you aiming to be the beatdown in most of your match ups, or are you the control? This deck is somewhere in the middle, and not in a good midrangey sort of way. You're running counter spells and Contagion Clasps, why? Again, are you trying to beat or control? Decide what you are, first, then go from there.
It seems you're leaning toward an aggro approach, so add some Steels and Overseers, and drop the Jaces, counters, Clasps, and other stuff. You don't want to rely on Tezzeret as your only win condition. A bunch of 0/2 Ornithopters is probably the worst board position ever, so you definitely need more ways than Tezzeret to turn your crappy weenies into decent bodies.
Anyway, I though I'd share the latest incarnation of my build. This has been testing very well. Mimic Vat is just an all star. Why wasn't this card being played more? I've been out of type two for quite a while, but the Vat just seems balls out awesome in a meta of Titans. Anyway, I've tweaked some numbers, added the Ratchet Bombs, and exchanged Leaks for Stoic Rebuttals (I don't want to type out the entire reason here, I'll explain later; it was a deeply intense and emotional personal decision). Oh, and I took out the Preordains. Another long story.
Here ya go:
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Sea Gate Oracle
Planeswalkers
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Sphere of the Suns
3 Mimic Vat
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Stoic Rebuttal
3 Go for the Throat
2 Doomblade
2 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
3 Island
3 Swamp
I'm pretty comfortable with this current MD. I've even started considering a sideboard. I would like Spreading Seas somewhere in my 75, just because GSZ made Valakut THAT much better. Definitely some more counter magic: Spell Pierce, possibly something like Flashfreeze. It's a tossup between Nighthawk and Crusader at the moment. I may end up finding room for both, especially if both Boros and infect.dec get as big as I think they will. And of course, disruption. Any combination of Inquisition and Memoricide will be fine, potentially Duress. Oh, and Phyrexian Revoker.
Damn, too many sideboard cards, not enough slots! I'm really loving UB right now.
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Currently Playing:
Anything U in Theogony IX's Cube: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5794231&postcount=1
Check out our EDH Cube! Constructive discussion welcomed. Hell, just a response would be nice.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8316611&postcount=1
Both of those lists can be found earlier in this thread without me having to repost that information.
@ your SB
I still like nighthawk over crusader unless youre going more all in towards poison. At the least I think if youre running crusader you should find the spots for inkmoth nexus. It works vs Valakut cause Valakut cant do anything if you pump an inmoth with tezz, youll likely win faster (assuming you did something else to slow him down a turn or so at some point from turn 1-4) so inkmoth would work. Inkmoth would also further your cause vs boros and other aggro more so obviously than tech edge, and would make crusader that much better.
Do I think inkmoth is better in UB right now? umm, not really, but Silvestri's list makes me hopeful and I could see people winning things with something along those lines. Still inkmoth + Crusader seems like an obvious conclusion.
@ dpg20
that list seems pretty bad really...yes we all see that 22 lands is not gonna work...not consistantly enough to make me want to bother with it at least. I also dont really see much point in running Grand Architect here along with treasure mage which seems to only nab kinda bleh artifacts that dont really impact things enough quickly enough imo. I dont get how you wouldnt be running a MD Wurmcoil or Battlesphere here to go with that treasure mage. You need it as an out in case you cant get tezz to stick and a MD threat beyond ornithopter seems good.
I agree his list is terrible lol I am sticking to traditional UB Control for now as I don't forsee Tezzeret making an impact on standard.
I'm not saying ur list is bad it seems quite solid I hope for your sake that he does turn out playable but I just don't see it happening with the current cardpool in Standard.
I'm pretty confident that Tezzeret will see type two play, even to the point of making some friendly wagers on this very board. Most of the pros seem to think he's a solid card, so I'm assuming we'll see him at PT:Paris in some fashion.
Banner courtesy of Skizzik_NZ and Maelstrom Graphics
Currently Playing:
Anything U in Theogony IX's Cube: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5794231&postcount=1
Check out our EDH Cube! Constructive discussion welcomed. Hell, just a response would be nice.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8316611&postcount=1