4 Effigies, 3 consuming vapors... and 3 rebounds of vapors can add up to 10 outs. Hence 7-10.
As far as flawed logic, please prove it. Mathematically speaking I find no issue in my logic... and to be sure my list runs a lot more draw/manip than most others posted here with Sign in Blood, Tutelage, and Crystal Ball in the list. 7 to 3 is barely better than 2:1 to be sure whereas 12:4 is 3:1. If one rebound hits we're at a near 3:1 ratio... if a 2nd rebound hits we're 3:1 and if a 3rd rebound hits we're >3:1. I take the average here which is you will get 2 rebounds off vapors over the course of a game. Ultimately your opponent has to also not just kill your percy outright because other removal they're holding is irrelevant vs. Ghast or Lich.
I'm not even going to listen to an argument based on counterspells. Counterspell beats almost everything. It's a fact of the game. However you will find that this list is pretty resilient to counterspell locking your percy in because effigy ducks under mana leak very well.
Finally, I think you're being way to absolutist with no real evidence except 'I'm right' supporting your argument.
I will leave it to someone else to fling statistics back at you since I suck at it, but I'm sure that you are still overestimating things here. It is only 7 chances because you need to actually draw the card to use it, and rebound is irrelevant in this case. Also, ignoring counterspells is foolish in the meta where UW control and friends is running rampant. Yes, the effigy slides under the mana leaks nicely, then eats an oring or pithing needle or whatever.
1) Yes very vulnerable. But who cares. On the flip side the decks that can kill it will kill every threat you have. Those that cant have almost 0 way to remove it. For eg. U/W is bad matchup. RDW is great as is Titan Force. A 2 for 1 is bad anytime but we reup on a Grave Titan. They can only mess the the Phlactary counters in so many ways. Once you down the frist counter the next Lich is bound to be stronger.
(BTW did MBC come to the conclusion that they themsevles are unplayable! Look at my name FFS it pains me but it's true, dont beleive a word of their lies)
We acknowledge that we're tier 2 at the moment, but viable. Once Jund goes away, everything will be gravy. ^^
2) The loss of red isn't hideous besdies for the people running terminate. Blue is just as strong. Mono is weaker unless you play into blacks strengths. Aka- Huge beats, disrpuption, grave tricks etc...
You also lose Lightning Bolt and Blightning. But I guess Urge to Feed and Mind Rot are sufficient substitutes for a mono black variant.
3) NO NO NO NO NO FFS! arhhhh im not angry at you but OFC this is a midrange creature that MUST be played with other elements to win the game outside aggro (such as creatures that curve up and out and disruption). Why is Lich aggro a hideous idea. It revovles around a shaky, vunrable (yet powerful) creature that is often a 2 for 1 that is begging to get owned. Turn 4 beating isnt aggro anway. If he gets 2for1ed on your turn 4 its time to scoop if your plan is aggro. You've lost 2-3 turns from the loss, playing the artifact T2, playing him without haste T3 and then he's gone T4 to Into the Roil, OPPS! He is a signifcant threat that can do some damage around turn 4-7 if not answered. Then usally he eats an answer and you play Percy/Grave Titan/Mind Sludge/Mind Shatter/other win con. Heck, i usally just play the Lich to get rid of Mana Leak to Mind Shatter the ☺☺☺☺ out of them or clear the way for Abyssal Persecutor. Agasint decks that dont have such soild answers, well the more the merrier and i play my Percy anyway.
The best part about black Midrange is that each creature is so huge and deadly it must be dealt with. We run their answers out of steam then use the best standard card draw (Sign in Blood) to keep plonking down our wins. The Lich is a midrange creature period. This debate should be over. What part of a turn 4 swing, combo to cast creature, is aggro?
This thread should be turned away from Lich 'this and that' into B/x Midrange, he isn't even the star anymore lol...but hey he is so super sexy for mindrange decks he fits like a glove.
Okay. So I agree that Lich is either midrange or control. My current list is a control deck that focuses on Dark Tutelage to generate card advantage to control my opponents board and hand. Lich has thus far been the best candidate for the finisher, as the deck runs 3 Basilisk Collar to hold off aggro and gain life to fuel the Dark Tutelage. (It's post-rotation though. xD)
I didn't run Abyssal Persecutor or Grave Titan; as awesome as they are, I really am depending on Dark Tutelage (I used to run 4, might go back up) to power the deck, and the former needs more sources of removal to make work (which all cost 4+) and the latter is 6cc, which can kill you (and note my low land count, which actually works with an average mana cost of ~1.4). I don't really have the goal of dropping a turn three Phylactery Lich. I usually attempt to establish card advantage and hand control as soon as possible.
It might need less equipment or more creatures. I'm thinking:
-1 Some Artifact
+1 Dark Tutelage
We acknowledge that we're tier 2 at the moment, but viable. Once Jund goes away, everything will be gravy. ^^
You also lose Lightning Bolt and Blightning. But I guess Urge to Feed and Mind Rot are sufficient substitutes for a mono black variant.
Okay. So I agree that Lich is either midrange or control. My current list is a control deck that focuses on Dark Tutelage to generate card advantage to control my opponents board and hand. Lich has thus far been the best candidate for the finisher, as the deck runs 3 Basilisk Collar to hold off aggro and gain life to fuel the Dark Tutelage. (It's post-rotation though. xD)
It might need less equipment or more creatures. I'm thinking:
-1 Some Artifact
+1 Dark Tutelage
* 3 Sign in Blood and 3 Tutelage? How much life draining card draw is to much? For me its either 3-4 SiB or 3 Tutelage. Once Tutlage is down why SiB? You can add a lot of good stuff with 3 slots.
* -1 SoV maybe. How many artifacts is to many, especially if your in topdeck and draw SoV with another one down. Maybe +1 Effigy - 1 SoV. I'm happy when i see 1 SoV but never 2, thats why i run one (you can check my list in my sig)
* Room for Nighthawk or Hypnotic Specter? That way you have evasive, lifegaining (offsetting tutelage) deathtoucher, who merits eating a removal spell, saving Lich. Or a discard a card flier is good. As another option if you think something is subpar or not working
* I see that your counting on discard/removal to quickly eat away their options but Consuming Vapors is good for nabbing those fats that Inquistion can't. But sufficent removal looks okay.
Given up magic because a)its a waste of money b)it sucks the joy out of life c)im doing more interesting things than tapping pieces of plastic that have no intrinsic value.
I encourage you to do the same. Instead of FNM try Friday Night Something Spontaneous. Instead of thousands of hours and dollars on plastic imagine it with a significant other or friends sharing something meaningful. I randomly typed a new password, so bon voyage itches i encourage you to follow suit! Cheers
* 3 Sign in Blood and 3 Tutelage? How much life draining card draw is to much? For me its either 3-4 SiB or 3 Tutelage. Once Tutlage is down why SiB? You can add a lot of good stuff with 3 slots.
* -1 SoV maybe. How many artifacts is to many, especially if your in topdeck and draw SoV with another one down. Maybe +1 Effigy - 1 SoV. I'm happy when i see 1 SoV but never 2, thats why i run one (you can check my list in my sig)
* Room for Nighthawk or Hypnotic Specter? That way you have evasive, lifegaining (offsetting tutelage) deathtoucher, who merits eating a removal spell, saving Lich. Or a discard a card flier is good. As another option if you think something is subpar or not working
* I see that your counting on discard/removal to quickly eat away their options but Consuming Vapors is good for nabbing those fats that Inquistion can't. But sufficent removal looks okay.
I guess I didn't really point it out, but please keep in mind, yhe reason why you see no Mind Sludge, Consuming Vapors, Consume the Meek, Abyssal Persecutor, or Grave Titan is because of the Dark Tutelage + Crystal Ball engine that I hope to exploit. Keeping the mana curve low lets me play turn three Dark Tutelage without any real time pressure, and it has been scary good against a wide swath of matchups (my pre-Lich variant did pretty well against everything but Jund). I mean, sure, I can make it 4 SiB and 2 GD with fetchlands and higher cost removal, but that would change the concept.
I'm happy seeing two SoV. SoV is always useful, given I have the mana for it.
I am not running those two creatures. Nighthawk is good on paper, but is sort of a disaster in practice. I mean this is how it looked when I used to run Nighthawk: Oh hey Jund, let's trade your <insert any Jund creature here> for my Nighthawk! OH CRAP! TOKENS? -_- And most other decks would just Lightning Bolt or Flame Slash or whatever my Nighthawk, so it fails as an early aggro deterrent (and given Nighthawk's sole role in my deck, being vulnerable to removal is probably a good argument... I think I'll stick to Doom Blade and Brittle Effigy). Hypnotic Specter has the same problems, except I guess it's easier to attack than it is to defend, but if I had to run a card like that, I would do Mind Shatter, but I'm trying for a post-rotation build at the moment.
Went 2-2 at FNM last week with this deck. 11th place. But, in a second tournament held yesterday, went 2-2 in swiss, and 2-1 in top 8 bracket...took home second.
Hypnotic Specter over Blightning for me, because local meta is aggro-heavy, and the discard is random, as opposed to my opponent getting a free Obstinate Baloth (etc.).
Really would like to drop one Consume the Meek (or SB it) for one more Grave Titan, but..I'm the epitome of a budget player. The one I have I lucked out and pulled from a pack. Have also considered pulling the Inquisitions from the SB in favor of D-Force x2 and another CtM.
Thoughts, post-rotation? Skytherix and Geth as finishers (Esp. with blue spells, Contagion Clasp/Engine and Geth's Throne for proliferate?). Even Trigon of Contagion is easy to weasel in, with artifacts like Khalni Gem.
Darksteel Axe as a Lich anchor may be a staple, or Clone Shell (suspending another finisher) are also shenannigans I'd love to try. Would likely need Crystal Ball support, or splash blue for Foresee.
I have done a little bit of playtesting with this, and it shows promise. Getting the axe can be a little bit inconsistent, but there is not a whole lot wrong with making your mox opal a phylactery, swinging and then sacking lich to dais when they blow up mox. I can't say enough about Culling Dais with Bloodghast. Holy frickin card advantage batman! Also Grim Discovery is just a great card in general, getting back lich and Wurmcoil engine (if they can manage to kill it) and your fetchlands for use with bloodghast. All opinions welcome.
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Liquidmetal Coating makes for some fun Litch moves such as turning one of your basic lands into an artifact and putting the Litch's counter on it. This makes for a difficult destroy for most players currently. Then if you get a second Litch into play you can make the first Litch an artifact and put the second Litch's counter on the first Litch. Unfortunately in mono B there isnt much other synergy from the Liquidmetal Coating. Most players who want to use this card will end up splashing red for some artifact destroy to go along with it. Its your call but I figured I would point out some advantages with it.
Another good artifact to rely on might be Crystal Ball. Scrying with it can help you set up what you draw as well as if needed being a target for a litch. Not as good as the axes who are indestructable but not bad I suppose.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
no way you can activate Mox Opal in this... you will have 1 or 2 artifact on the field maximum on the field... i hope you dont count Wurmcoil as an artifact to activate Mox.
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Kakwann, Lvl 39 Sorcerer
Currently Playing
Standard:GWRU 4C Collected Company Modern:GUWRB Bloom Titan Legacy:BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH : GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
Hi all,
I've recently come up with a mono black deck that revolves around Phylactery Lich. I have been waiting to make a deck around him since M11 came out. I have tested it against a few decks and it peforms fine enough but was looking for some constructive criticism.
The idea is simple enough, tank up the Lich. Just a note, the lone Gatekeeper is a temporary Consuming Vapors...couldn't get my hands on another. And as you can probarbly tell, I can't go hunting for lots of titans due to money restraints!
Any comments would be great!
I don't like the creature base. 4 leaches are far too many, just play 2 of them, and its enought.
The nantuko + leaden myr + black knight, seems more a aggro pack, with a mix of ramp, than a trully control. And the best possible 2 drop, that normaly its a 3, its the gatekeeper. One more sacrificing efect, you could easly play with 4 + 3 consuming, to have the real board position.
Then, like the classics MBC from past standards, the discard creatures are awesome, but the fragile equipment like contact lenses are not. Take out 4 lenses, and put up 4 Liliana Specter.
For the black knight, 90% of the time you want him because its a 2 power initiative. Hexmage does the same, and has a strong habillity against the PW's.
Then, why not 4 sign in blood? The extra cards are perfect for a control deck.
Why just 2 doom blades, and no smother?
Just some question to think of.
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I don't like the Myr here. You'd never use him as the artifact for the Lich because he's too fragile, and I don't think the mana ability is worth it. You also might want to consider Diabolic Tutors to snag an artifact from your deck. Also, Everflowing Chalice is a good choice as a utility artifact.
Ok I made an Equipment deck with it. Equip dudes, attack. If etched champion gets 3, toss lich counter on it, and viola, no way to deal with it. Save a DoJ or something.
Isn't that the point of running Lich in the first place? Whats the point of jumping through all these hoops to make a guy who doesn't die to wrath....that dies to wrath.
The Lich's ability activates when he enters the battlefield. Couldn't you use Liquimetal Coating to make himself an artifact and put the counter on him? I'm pretty sure that should work
The biggest problem with Liquimetal Coating imo is that it isn't really that good of a card on its own. It's sole use in this deck is to turn some non-artifact into an artifact for the lich. Slots taken up by LMC could be filled with cards that would be effective in more situations (Collar, Sword of Vengence, maybe even ratchet bomb or mimic vat if you are going for more of a control flavor). I'm also not a huge fan of bloodghast in this deck/decks like this. The way the format is shaping, i would much rather run hexmage or gatekeeper.
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I will leave it to someone else to fling statistics back at you since I suck at it, but I'm sure that you are still overestimating things here. It is only 7 chances because you need to actually draw the card to use it, and rebound is irrelevant in this case. Also, ignoring counterspells is foolish in the meta where UW control and friends is running rampant. Yes, the effigy slides under the mana leaks nicely, then eats an oring or pithing needle or whatever.
We acknowledge that we're tier 2 at the moment, but viable. Once Jund goes away, everything will be gravy. ^^
You also lose Lightning Bolt and Blightning. But I guess Urge to Feed and Mind Rot are sufficient substitutes for a mono black variant.
Okay. So I agree that Lich is either midrange or control. My current list is a control deck that focuses on Dark Tutelage to generate card advantage to control my opponents board and hand. Lich has thus far been the best candidate for the finisher, as the deck runs 3 Basilisk Collar to hold off aggro and gain life to fuel the Dark Tutelage. (It's post-rotation though. xD)
21 Swamp
Creatures - 11
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Phylactery Lich
Spells - 15
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Doom Blade
3 Sign in Blood
4 Mind Rot
3 Basilisk Collar
3 Brittle Effigy
2 Sword of Vengeance
2 Crystal Ball
Other - 3
3 Dark Tutelage
4 Duress
4 Black Knight
1 Vampire Hexmage
3 Marsh Casualties
3 Sadistic Sacrament
I didn't run Abyssal Persecutor or Grave Titan; as awesome as they are, I really am depending on Dark Tutelage (I used to run 4, might go back up) to power the deck, and the former needs more sources of removal to make work (which all cost 4+) and the latter is 6cc, which can kill you (and note my low land count, which actually works with an average mana cost of ~1.4). I don't really have the goal of dropping a turn three Phylactery Lich. I usually attempt to establish card advantage and hand control as soon as possible.
It might need less equipment or more creatures. I'm thinking:
-1 Some Artifact
+1 Dark Tutelage
* 3 Sign in Blood and 3 Tutelage? How much life draining card draw is to much? For me its either 3-4 SiB or 3 Tutelage. Once Tutlage is down why SiB? You can add a lot of good stuff with 3 slots.
* -1 SoV maybe. How many artifacts is to many, especially if your in topdeck and draw SoV with another one down. Maybe +1 Effigy - 1 SoV. I'm happy when i see 1 SoV but never 2, thats why i run one (you can check my list in my sig)
* Room for Nighthawk or Hypnotic Specter? That way you have evasive, lifegaining (offsetting tutelage) deathtoucher, who merits eating a removal spell, saving Lich. Or a discard a card flier is good. As another option if you think something is subpar or not working
* I see that your counting on discard/removal to quickly eat away their options but Consuming Vapors is good for nabbing those fats that Inquistion can't. But sufficent removal looks okay.
I encourage you to do the same. Instead of FNM try Friday Night Something Spontaneous. Instead of thousands of hours and dollars on plastic imagine it with a significant other or friends sharing something meaningful. I randomly typed a new password, so bon voyage itches i encourage you to follow suit! Cheers
I guess I didn't really point it out, but please keep in mind, yhe reason why you see no Mind Sludge, Consuming Vapors, Consume the Meek, Abyssal Persecutor, or Grave Titan is because of the Dark Tutelage + Crystal Ball engine that I hope to exploit. Keeping the mana curve low lets me play turn three Dark Tutelage without any real time pressure, and it has been scary good against a wide swath of matchups (my pre-Lich variant did pretty well against everything but Jund). I mean, sure, I can make it 4 SiB and 2 GD with fetchlands and higher cost removal, but that would change the concept.
I'm happy seeing two SoV. SoV is always useful, given I have the mana for it.
I am not running those two creatures. Nighthawk is good on paper, but is sort of a disaster in practice. I mean this is how it looked when I used to run Nighthawk: Oh hey Jund, let's trade your <insert any Jund creature here> for my Nighthawk! OH CRAP! TOKENS? -_- And most other decks would just Lightning Bolt or Flame Slash or whatever my Nighthawk, so it fails as an early aggro deterrent (and given Nighthawk's sole role in my deck, being vulnerable to removal is probably a good argument... I think I'll stick to Doom Blade and Brittle Effigy). Hypnotic Specter has the same problems, except I guess it's easier to attack than it is to defend, but if I had to run a card like that, I would do Mind Shatter, but I'm trying for a post-rotation build at the moment.
Went 2-2 at FNM last week with this deck. 11th place. But, in a second tournament held yesterday, went 2-2 in swiss, and 2-1 in top 8 bracket...took home second.
Hypnotic Specter over Blightning for me, because local meta is aggro-heavy, and the discard is random, as opposed to my opponent getting a free Obstinate Baloth (etc.).
Really would like to drop one Consume the Meek (or SB it) for one more Grave Titan, but..I'm the epitome of a budget player. The one I have I lucked out and pulled from a pack. Have also considered pulling the Inquisitions from the SB in favor of D-Force x2 and another CtM.
Thoughts, post-rotation? Skytherix and Geth as finishers (Esp. with blue spells, Contagion Clasp/Engine and Geth's Throne for proliferate?). Even Trigon of Contagion is easy to weasel in, with artifacts like Khalni Gem.
Darksteel Axe as a Lich anchor may be a staple, or Clone Shell (suspending another finisher) are also shenannigans I'd love to try. Would likely need Crystal Ball support, or splash blue for Foresee.
Standard:
WBG Abzan Midrange
Modern:
UWR Kiki-Jiki Control
EDH:
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
4 Memnite
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Artifacts:
4 Darksteel Axe
3 Mox Opal
3 Culling Dais
4 Grim Discovery
4 Consuming Vapors
Land:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
12 Swamps
3 Deathmark
12 ??
I have done a little bit of playtesting with this, and it shows promise. Getting the axe can be a little bit inconsistent, but there is not a whole lot wrong with making your mox opal a phylactery, swinging and then sacking lich to dais when they blow up mox. I can't say enough about Culling Dais with Bloodghast. Holy frickin card advantage batman! Also Grim Discovery is just a great card in general, getting back lich and Wurmcoil engine (if they can manage to kill it) and your fetchlands for use with bloodghast. All opinions welcome.
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
Another good artifact to rely on might be Crystal Ball. Scrying with it can help you set up what you draw as well as if needed being a target for a litch. Not as good as the axes who are indestructable but not bad I suppose.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Standard: GWRU 4C Collected Company
Modern: GUWRB Bloom Titan
Legacy: BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH :
GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED
GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA
UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED
UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY
B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE
R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
Add in more Doom Blades, Sign in Blood and other general purpose black cards.
Doom blade is great too, and grasp of darkness gives -4/-4, so that's also an option.
I don't like the creature base. 4 leaches are far too many, just play 2 of them, and its enought.
The nantuko + leaden myr + black knight, seems more a aggro pack, with a mix of ramp, than a trully control. And the best possible 2 drop, that normaly its a 3, its the gatekeeper. One more sacrificing efect, you could easly play with 4 + 3 consuming, to have the real board position.
Then, like the classics MBC from past standards, the discard creatures are awesome, but the fragile equipment like contact lenses are not. Take out 4 lenses, and put up 4 Liliana Specter.
For the black knight, 90% of the time you want him because its a 2 power initiative. Hexmage does the same, and has a strong habillity against the PW's.
Then, why not 4 sign in blood? The extra cards are perfect for a control deck.
Why just 2 doom blades, and no smother?
Just some question to think of.
John Adams
Magic Intelligence - Now in the last stage of beta. With archetyps and pretty more data! A strong source for facts.. or as you can say statistics and decklists of MtG!
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Abyssal Persecutor
Artifacts:
4 Darksteel Axe
3 Culling Dais
3 Liquimetal Coating
2 Nim Deathmantle
3 Crystal Ball
3 Grim Discovery
3 Doomblade
3 Consuming Vapors
Land:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
12 Swamps
3 Deathmark
3 Consume the Meek
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Sign in Blood
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
4 Bloodghast
4 Phylactery Lich
3 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Painsmith
3 Perilous Myr
4 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lux Cannon
4 Mox Opal
2 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Eldrazi Monument
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Discovery
Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
14 Swamp
Here's my idea.
16 Swamps
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flat
Creatures
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Etched Champion
4 Bloodghast
3 Skinrender
2 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Vengence
3 Darksteel Axe
2 Mox Opal
2 Basilisk Collar
3 Infiltration Lens
4 Doom Blade
4 Duress
2 Corrupt
Ok I made an Equipment deck with it. Equip dudes, attack. If etched champion gets 3, toss lich counter on it, and viola, no way to deal with it. Save a DoJ or something.
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Isn't that the point of running Lich in the first place? Whats the point of jumping through all these hoops to make a guy who doesn't die to wrath....that dies to wrath.
Lodestone golem
Memnite
steel over seer and such
the issue ive been having is that alot of the removal main decked can still kill him. IE, Journey.
the lodestones are awesome though. youwould be surprised how many decks simply cant deal with that tempo loss from having to play around that
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