@kpal - Exact same list 5-0'ed 4 days ago. MTGO Competitive Standard Constructed League — 15-Feb-2018. Something to think about before the GP this weekend.
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
That is really close to what I do except I don't pull out the Hulks, instead pull out some Censor. They quickly lose value, IMO and the Hulks can help you stabilize if you make it to turn 6. Also, I may swap 2 Disallow/Supreme for 2 Negates depending on the matchup. Honestly, that is the matchup I miss Aether Meltdown the most.
I really like the 5-0 list Kpal posted. The 1 Farm makes a lot of sense once I realized that the list is a straight Draw-Go style deck. And after playtesting works great. Most players will play around a Settle if you have mana open for it, instead they will swinging with one or two big creatures. Farm lets you kill one without wasting your Settle. And what is really funny is watching them the next turn trying to figure out what to do, swing with everything or just one/two dudes.
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
Sorry for having to ask here, but is there anywhere that the Esper builds are discussed here? I have really loved playing the deck, but am pretty committed to the black cards in it. Thanks in advance!
Sorry for having to ask here, but is there anywhere that the Esper builds are discussed here? I have really loved playing the deck, but am pretty committed to the black cards in it. Thanks in advance!
There are some lists posted a while back, maybe if you go back 6-9 pages you will see some Esper lists but the mods decided to focus this thread on U/W control so that's why it is the way it is.
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I have spammed this deck the last couple nights against assortments of aggro decks. Mono Red, Mardu Vehicles, Mono Black, and B/R. Game 1 seems abysmal. Sideboarded games are obviously a lot better, but still don't feel great without turn 1 Authority of the Consuls. I am just not sure how this deck is 5-0ing without Baffling End.
I have spammed this deck the last couple nights against assortments of aggro decks. Mono Red, Mardu Vehicles, Mono Black, and B/R. Game 1 seems abysmal. Sideboarded games are obviously a lot better, but still don't feel great without turn 1 Authority of the Consuls. I am just not sure how this deck is 5-0ing without Baffling End.
Post your decklist and then we can figure out why you are losing game 1 in all those matchups. It's true that it's an uphill battle to win against aggro decks in game 1 but it's not impossible, I have won maybe 50% of game 1's against aggro decks in the past, so it's not as abysmal as you make it seem.
Also I have never played authority of the consuls in any of my sideboard plans, I go for having early counters (essence scatter, negate, supreme will) and drop down creatures such as sunscourge champion or vizier of deferment to block and kill attacking creatures until I can get 4 lands for settle or 5 lands for fumigate.
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I posted the list like 3 posts in front of the one you replyed to. Didn't think I needed to post it again. Its the most recent list to 5-0 on mtggoldfish.
I tested Baffling End a bit, and while I liked it at first (see earlier post), I think I'm moving away from it in favor of the Holds and Censor. Censor seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it card, but it has done so much work against aggro decks that want to curve out at all costs. Against red, it basically reads "Counter target Ahn-Crop Crasher". Tapping out turn 2 for a Baffling End doesn't seem like where you want to be against aggro because it will often result in a Crasher to the face. I'm much happier tapping out turn 3 for Desert's Hold if needed because it will at least get me a few life back.
Desert's Hold has also allowed me to go down to 2 Cast Out in the main because I no longer need to Cast Out the gods.
Desert of the True isn't super exciting, but I do like being able to cycle it away if I get flooded, and I don't think the deck wants Shefet Dunes.
I'm also testing 2 Slash of Talons in the main deck given all the creatures I'm seeing in my testing. Feels so good to get a Glint-Sleeve Siphoner early on.
Sorry for having to ask here, but is there anywhere that the Esper builds are discussed here? I have really loved playing the deck, but am pretty committed to the black cards in it. Thanks in advance!
Since it we can't talk about Esper or Jeskai Approach list here, which still seems funny to me, I will start a new thread when I get back from the GP in Memphis. The Esper lists right now are still 5-0'ing and are very solid. Even though Jeskai has fallen out of favor, I feel there are some very competitive lists out there.
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
I have spammed this deck the last couple nights against assortments of aggro decks. Mono Red, Mardu Vehicles, Mono Black, and B/R. Game 1 seems abysmal. Sideboarded games are obviously a lot better, but still don't feel great without turn 1 Authority of the Consuls. I am just not sure how this deck is 5-0ing without Baffling End.
It is hard to argue with the two recent 5-0s but I agree, this decklist isn't for me.
Sorry for having to ask here, but is there anywhere that the Esper builds are discussed here? I have really loved playing the deck, but am pretty committed to the black cards in it. Thanks in advance!
Since it we can't talk about Esper or Jeskai Approach list here, which still seems funny to me
Agreed. I like being able to compare the builds since all three play a similar style and have similar challenges.
Sorry for having to ask here, but is there anywhere that the Esper builds are discussed here? I have really loved playing the deck, but am pretty committed to the black cards in it. Thanks in advance!
Since it we can't talk about Esper or Jeskai Approach list here, which still seems funny to me
Agreed. I like being able to compare the builds since all three play a similar style and have similar challenges.
I'm not going to bother scrolling back, but I seem to recall a lot of discussion of the Jeskai and Esper variants. Until Baffling End came out I was firmly in the 3C versions, but I don't think that's necessary anymore.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I don't agree. I don't see Baffling End fixing what Black or Red shore up. Having played a few different 2 color versions over the last month, I don't like the land and I don't think any of them offer enough to give the deck an all around decent position in an expected metta. I am happy to discuss these theories, but regardless, I think that's why Silvestry (as mentioned in the article above) doesn't recommend UW Approach. I will say though, that in my experience Josh is really good at telling you why something was good last week, and has a pretty bad record with what will be good next week.
Sorry for having to ask here, but is there anywhere that the Esper builds are discussed here? I have really loved playing the deck, but am pretty committed to the black cards in it. Thanks in advance!
Since it we can't talk about Esper or Jeskai Approach list here, which still seems funny to me, I will start a new thread when I get back from the GP in Memphis. The Esper lists right now are still 5-0'ing and are very solid. Even though Jeskai has fallen out of favor, I feel there are some very competitive lists out there.
Do you have a link to the 5-0 lists anywhere? I usually just go to mtgtop8 for whats doing well but I don't think they have the mtg leagues in there. Thanks.
Sorry for having to ask here, but is there anywhere that the Esper builds are discussed here? I have really loved playing the deck, but am pretty committed to the black cards in it. Thanks in advance!
Since it we can't talk about Esper or Jeskai Approach list here, which still seems funny to me, I will start a new thread when I get back from the GP in Memphis. The Esper lists right now are still 5-0'ing and are very solid. Even though Jeskai has fallen out of favor, I feel there are some very competitive lists out there.
Do you have a link to the 5-0 lists anywhere? I usually just go to mtgtop8 for whats doing well but I don't think they have the mtg leagues in there. Thanks.
I don't agree. I don't see Baffling End fixing what Black or Red shore up. Having played a few different 2 color versions over the last month, I don't like the land and I don't think any of them offer enough to give the deck an all around decent position in an expected metta. I am happy to discuss these theories, but regardless, I think that's why Silvestry (as mentioned in the article above) doesn't recommend UW Approach. I will say though, that in my experience Josh is really good at telling you why something was good last week, and has a pretty bad record with what will be good next week.
Someone asked him about UW Approach specifically and he said, "Approach doesn't beat anything. It's a deck that looks good on paper and has no real good matches in practice."
I see his perspective. The metagame is almost 50% haste according to mtggoldfish. That's a nightmare game 1. I kind of think it isn't that bad post-board with Authority of the Consuls, especially with Rampaging Ferocidon gone. BTW, in retrospect, given how dominant haste is right now I think Wizards may have been right to ban that card.
The next big slice is 35% midrange. All of these decks are black and some are UB. I think these are generally favorable game 1 but pretty challenging post-board as you could be looking at sets of Negate & Duress, with some Disallow and Gonti, Lord of Luxury thrown in. A resolved Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is a nightmare in this game because you end up losing card advantage too.
The 15% control is a mixed bad. The Bant/UR Approach variants I think are pretty easy since they can't protect their second Approach with counters as well as I can attack it (they can't out "blue" us).
I feel advantage to Esper Approach and UB Control simply because they have Duress post-board. I still think UW is slightly better overall because of the more consistent lands.
Sort of mirrors last Standard. Temur was game 1 win with a loss game 2 and tough game 3. Ramunap was loss game 1 but I feel could board in a win. Anyway, from my perspective UW Approach won't be a Tier 1 deck but we're in a better position than last Standard.
Currently testing more general purpose counters (Supreme Will, Disallow) to see if that helps the Midrange Black match-up.
Control decks are notoriously hard to play, they are not easy to use and even if you get a proven decklist that 5-0'd some tourney it doesn't mean you will get even close to that result by playing that list.
The chances are that you don't understand why the cards are in the deck and how to use those cards, I know many people think that because they can play aggro decks and midrange decks that they can just pick up a pure control deck (U/W) and have the same results but that is an illusion.
Right now U/W has the BEST cards to run a pure control deck, I've said this before and I'll say it again...we have 3 playable Wrath cards such as slaughter the strong, settle the wreckage and fumigate. All 3 of these cards are playable and all 3 should be played in some version of this control deck.
The deck also has some of the BEST spot removal in the history of the game, are you kidding me? We have baffling end, cast out, ixalan's binding and thopter arrest to take care of creatures, planeswalkers or even enchantments and artifacts.
As a control player for more than 20 years this is an awesome time to be playing U/W control and I am quite surprised that people are making such a big deal about other decks instead of focussing on playing this deck to the best of their ability and testing it enough that they can beat any matchup.
I mean you can play 4 cast out, 4 baffling end, 4 settle the wreckage and 4 fumigates in a deck and if you get a bad draws, bad start or mana flood/screw you will lose against and aggro deck...it just happens, but if you do have a deck with those 16 removal spells then theoretically you should be winning every single game against an aggro deck due to the number of removal...and I'm not even counting any counterspells that you may have to deny the opponent threats.
Any deck can be beaten right now and any deck played by a good player can go 5-0 and wipe the board with the competition, what you have to do is choose your deck and play it...don't change cards in it every day whenever you think a new card may be better and don't change decks every 2-3 weeks, or add a color or whatever and then complain that the deck doesn't work.
The deck works, it's YOU who doesn't work!
Learn the deck, learn the card, learn the metagame and the interactions and how to respond to any threats being cast and then you will see that you can win any match up with this deck.
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Control
The deck also has some of the BEST spot removal in the history of the game, are you kidding me? We have baffling end, cast out, ixalan's binding and thopter arrest to take care of creatures, planeswalkers or even enchantments and artifacts.
those removers are ok if you are playing tap out control. Terrible in draw-go. Thopter Arrest leaves the creature to come back if the enchantment is removed allowing ETB effects to trigger yet again. The same goes for Cast Out.
The best spot removal in the history of Magic? In white only? Because this list of cards is certainly not even close to Hero's Downfall, Terminate, Grasp of Darkness, or Lightning Bolt.
If you are playing draw-go UW Control, you really need Slash of Talons and or Farm // Market at the very least. But would probably be better served by Fatal Push or Harnessed Lightning. The lack of early instant speed removers is a glaring weakness of the deck
[quote from="xaltair »" url="/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/proven-standard/784306-uw-approach?comment=513"]The lack of early instant speed removers is a glaring weakness of the deck
I tend to agree. It's a big part of what gravitates everyone to the 3 color builds. . . Hopefully we'll see some good results at the Memphis Grand Prix this weekend. Good luck pumpmonkey!
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Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
C Long Live Eldrazi C
With this decklist you are running 6 deserts. I wonder if that is enough for a 1 or 2 of Desert's Hold
On the play
Out
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Approach of the Second Sun
1 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Pull from Tomorrow
2 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Fumigate
In
4 Authority of the Consuls
4 Regal Caracal
1 Gideon of the Trials
On the draw maybe change some things around and take out Censor Thoughts?
I really like the 5-0 list Kpal posted. The 1 Farm makes a lot of sense once I realized that the list is a straight Draw-Go style deck. And after playtesting works great. Most players will play around a Settle if you have mana open for it, instead they will swinging with one or two big creatures. Farm lets you kill one without wasting your Settle. And what is really funny is watching them the next turn trying to figure out what to do, swing with everything or just one/two dudes.
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
Or is too narrow?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
There are some lists posted a while back, maybe if you go back 6-9 pages you will see some Esper lists but the mods decided to focus this thread on U/W control so that's why it is the way it is.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
Post your decklist and then we can figure out why you are losing game 1 in all those matchups. It's true that it's an uphill battle to win against aggro decks in game 1 but it's not impossible, I have won maybe 50% of game 1's against aggro decks in the past, so it's not as abysmal as you make it seem.
Also I have never played authority of the consuls in any of my sideboard plans, I go for having early counters (essence scatter, negate, supreme will) and drop down creatures such as sunscourge champion or vizier of deferment to block and kill attacking creatures until I can get 4 lands for settle or 5 lands for fumigate.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
I'm running 3x Desert's Hold in my current UW build. Went up to 7 deserts to support them (3 Desert of the True, 3 Ipnu Rivulet, 1 Scavenger Grounds). It's really very, very good. Some of my favorite targets are Bomat Courier (can't sac it for cards), Hazoret, the Fervent (stop throwing cards at me!), Rekindling Phoenix, and of course, The Scarab God. The lifegain is very relevant against most of the field (which seems to be very creature-heavy), it helps get me closer to City's Blessing for my Arch of Orazca, and it keeps things on the field for a better Fumigate.
I tested Baffling End a bit, and while I liked it at first (see earlier post), I think I'm moving away from it in favor of the Holds and Censor. Censor seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it card, but it has done so much work against aggro decks that want to curve out at all costs. Against red, it basically reads "Counter target Ahn-Crop Crasher". Tapping out turn 2 for a Baffling End doesn't seem like where you want to be against aggro because it will often result in a Crasher to the face. I'm much happier tapping out turn 3 for Desert's Hold if needed because it will at least get me a few life back.
Desert's Hold has also allowed me to go down to 2 Cast Out in the main because I no longer need to Cast Out the gods.
Desert of the True isn't super exciting, but I do like being able to cycle it away if I get flooded, and I don't think the deck wants Shefet Dunes.
I'm also testing 2 Slash of Talons in the main deck given all the creatures I'm seeing in my testing. Feels so good to get a Glint-Sleeve Siphoner early on.
Since it we can't talk about Esper or Jeskai Approach list here, which still seems funny to me, I will start a new thread when I get back from the GP in Memphis. The Esper lists right now are still 5-0'ing and are very solid. Even though Jeskai has fallen out of favor, I feel there are some very competitive lists out there.
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
For my part, I think we're in a pretty good spot now as evidenced by the recent 5-0 results by both the Esper and UW Approach decks.
It is hard to argue with the two recent 5-0s but I agree, this decklist isn't for me.
2 Torrential Gearhulk
Spells 33
3 Approach of the Second Sun
3 Fumigate
3 Censor
2 Disallow
4 Essence Scatter
1 Farm // Market
3 Glimmer of Genius
1 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Pull from Tomorrow
3 Settle the Wreckage
3 Supreme Will
4 Cast Out
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Field of Ruin
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Ipnu Rivulet
4 Irrigated Farmland
3 Island
6 Plains
2 Scavenger Grounds
I still prefer a derivative of this build from a couple of months ago: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/866217#paper.
7 Island
6 Plains
2 Field of Ruin
2 Scavenger Grounds
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
Spells 33
4 Cast Out
4 Censor
4 Disallow
3 Glimmer of Genius
4 Opt
3 Settle the Wreckage
3 Supreme Will
3 Search for Azcanta
3 Approach of the Second Sun
2 Fumigate
2 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Authority of the Consuls
4 Negate
2 Baffling End
4 Regal Caracal
1 Azor, the Lawbringer
Agreed. I like being able to compare the builds since all three play a similar style and have similar challenges.
I'm not going to bother scrolling back, but I seem to recall a lot of discussion of the Jeskai and Esper variants. Until Baffling End came out I was firmly in the 3C versions, but I don't think that's necessary anymore.
Do you have a link to the 5-0 lists anywhere? I usually just go to mtgtop8 for whats doing well but I don't think they have the mtg leagues in there. Thanks.
I go here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/standard#paper.
Someone asked him about UW Approach specifically and he said, "Approach doesn't beat anything. It's a deck that looks good on paper and has no real good matches in practice."
I see his perspective. The metagame is almost 50% haste according to mtggoldfish. That's a nightmare game 1. I kind of think it isn't that bad post-board with Authority of the Consuls, especially with Rampaging Ferocidon gone. BTW, in retrospect, given how dominant haste is right now I think Wizards may have been right to ban that card.
The next big slice is 35% midrange. All of these decks are black and some are UB. I think these are generally favorable game 1 but pretty challenging post-board as you could be looking at sets of Negate & Duress, with some Disallow and Gonti, Lord of Luxury thrown in. A resolved Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is a nightmare in this game because you end up losing card advantage too.
The 15% control is a mixed bad. The Bant/UR Approach variants I think are pretty easy since they can't protect their second Approach with counters as well as I can attack it (they can't out "blue" us).
I feel advantage to Esper Approach and UB Control simply because they have Duress post-board. I still think UW is slightly better overall because of the more consistent lands.
Sort of mirrors last Standard. Temur was game 1 win with a loss game 2 and tough game 3. Ramunap was loss game 1 but I feel could board in a win. Anyway, from my perspective UW Approach won't be a Tier 1 deck but we're in a better position than last Standard.
Currently testing more general purpose counters (Supreme Will, Disallow) to see if that helps the Midrange Black match-up.
The chances are that you don't understand why the cards are in the deck and how to use those cards, I know many people think that because they can play aggro decks and midrange decks that they can just pick up a pure control deck (U/W) and have the same results but that is an illusion.
Right now U/W has the BEST cards to run a pure control deck, I've said this before and I'll say it again...we have 3 playable Wrath cards such as slaughter the strong, settle the wreckage and fumigate. All 3 of these cards are playable and all 3 should be played in some version of this control deck.
The deck also has some of the BEST spot removal in the history of the game, are you kidding me? We have baffling end, cast out, ixalan's binding and thopter arrest to take care of creatures, planeswalkers or even enchantments and artifacts.
The card draw is decent with having access to champion of wits, hieroglyphic illuminations and glimmer of genius as well as the bomb that is search for azcanta.
Last but not least alternate win conditions such as torrential gearhulk, nezahal primal tide, azor the lawbringer and so on we can choose exactly what we want to end the game with, in case approach doesn't show up.
As a control player for more than 20 years this is an awesome time to be playing U/W control and I am quite surprised that people are making such a big deal about other decks instead of focussing on playing this deck to the best of their ability and testing it enough that they can beat any matchup.
I mean you can play 4 cast out, 4 baffling end, 4 settle the wreckage and 4 fumigates in a deck and if you get a bad draws, bad start or mana flood/screw you will lose against and aggro deck...it just happens, but if you do have a deck with those 16 removal spells then theoretically you should be winning every single game against an aggro deck due to the number of removal...and I'm not even counting any counterspells that you may have to deny the opponent threats.
Any deck can be beaten right now and any deck played by a good player can go 5-0 and wipe the board with the competition, what you have to do is choose your deck and play it...don't change cards in it every day whenever you think a new card may be better and don't change decks every 2-3 weeks, or add a color or whatever and then complain that the deck doesn't work.
The deck works, it's YOU who doesn't work!
Learn the deck, learn the card, learn the metagame and the interactions and how to respond to any threats being cast and then you will see that you can win any match up with this deck.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
The best spot removal in the history of Magic? In white only? Because this list of cards is certainly not even close to Hero's Downfall, Terminate, Grasp of Darkness, or Lightning Bolt.
If you are playing draw-go UW Control, you really need Slash of Talons and or Farm // Market at the very least. But would probably be better served by Fatal Push or Harnessed Lightning. The lack of early instant speed removers is a glaring weakness of the deck
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Not sure who that was directed to X-Man, but probably an unnecessary comment. . .
I tend to agree. It's a big part of what gravitates everyone to the 3 color builds. . . Hopefully we'll see some good results at the Memphis Grand Prix this weekend. Good luck pumpmonkey!