I feel like Slaughter the strong too often will yield a board that will still kill you even though Hazoret will be gone. 4 power plus another haste and you're dead (or burn). That's the problem with all these half ass removal spells they're vomiting out.
Baffling End does do it's job. Perhaps a build that pushes towards Ascend for some reason. Kumena's Awakening seems jank.
Golden Guardian is almost tempting to use as a defender then transform it to make an army but 4 mana to get on the board leaves you tapped out and behind on T4. You have to have 2 mana out to transform it vs removal or Glorybringer
Not even a Plainswalkers that will work with control. This is how far off balance to creature feature design STILL is pushing.
Gideon has won me a lot of games all by himself. And has kept me from losing even more. Seems like there are going to be more aggro decks, this must be how Wizards is trying to deal with Temur. So the control decks are going to have to get better at dealing with faster threats. Personnel, I don't feel like UW is going to be enough, you will have to splash Red or Black for the instant spot removal. The mana base is a little rough, but not to bad. Not sure which is the best way to go, Red Or Black, both will work, just depends on what you want from your sideboard.
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
Honestly I see UW being worth it with baffling end. We already have enough 2-mana answers, but the biggest gain for me from red was Magma Spray as the only effective way to deal with Earthshaker Khenra. The better mana is reason enough imo to go back to UW. Of course this is all theoretical since I haven't played with these cards yet, so I'll get back to y'all once I get a better idea of what I'm doing.
How so? Exactly what do you plan to exile with it? Bomat Courier? Earthshaker Khenra? Another 1/1 or 2/1? That doesn't answer anything, one for one removal is not good, settle the wreckage is enough to deal with ramunap red, as is 4 copies of Essence Scatter main deck so you can counter their threats.
You can use Baffling End better against energy decks, you can use it on cub, snake, even rogue refiner if you need to.
Moment of Craving benefits you 2 fold.
You don't take damage from an attack.
You gain 2 life padding (likely trading for the other creature you couldn't stop)
Esper is going to have a sweet spot although Aether Meltdown gets you half of that and they don't get to Eternalize Earthshaker Khenra which benefits you later.
Baffling End is better against energy but post board they're likely to get that 3/3 or outright counter your sorcery.
I have a conceptual question I'm hoping someone can help me out with. UR seems to have a lot of two mana answers with Aether Meltdown and Harnessed Lightning and Essence Scatter. And my least favorite thing about Approach Decks is reliance on wraths; especially post-board and especially with Admiral's Order coming into the World. . . What is the significant downside of UR builds? Seems like a splash of white via an Aether Hub or some other means would be enough to get Approach of the Second Sun out.
The wraths are the safety valve you have to depend on because point and shoot removal has more limitations than missing just 1 indestructible target.
Harness is great if you're building up a lot of energy but if you're not Energy creatures will outsize your energy limit. Aether meltdown is also decent but can be outsized or just 'hex proofed' when you cast.
Since no mana has to be expended to use energy the natural limitations the game has for itself are ignored and then theres Blossoming Defense.
The problem is red removal is great early game and against Ramred but not great against energy/lategame. Other than the red wrath, you cannot deal with Hazoret. So it will come down to your meta and what you expect to deal with.
UR was great for a while but has failed in the current energy/ramredness of the world. Esper gives you a nice mix (UB to a lesser degree). You have access to instant conditional removal and wraths that will get everything.
What Greyimp said. IMO, Approach needs to be a UWx deck, splash a third color for spot removal and sideboard options. If you are planning on running a UR list with a splash for Approach, you probably won't be able to run the white sweepers, Settle and Fumigate, because of needing double white for both. Those are 2 of the best sweepers in Standard right now.
I have tried both Jeskai and Esper, with pretty similar results. So it comes down to what you like the best. One has Abrade , Glorybringer and The Locust God. The other has Vrasha's Contempt , Duress and The Scarab God. Red seems to be better against a more aggro meta and Esper feels stronger against mostly Temur. But that could just be the differences in my list. My Jeskai lists run Gideon main and my Esper runs Gearhulk main (so I can turn the deck into a UB Control list G2/3).
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
How so? Exactly what do you plan to exile with it? Bomat Courier? Earthshaker Khenra? Another 1/1 or 2/1? That doesn't answer anything, one for one removal is not good, settle the wreckage is enough to deal with ramunap red, as is 4 copies of Essence Scatter main deck so you can counter their threats.
You can use Baffling End better against energy decks, you can use it on cub, snake, even rogue refiner if you need to.
Try playing some leagues online or going to a GP. I think you'll find that the Ramunap Red players there don't play into Settle the Wreckage like the RR players you play against do. You need a dearth of cheap 1-for-1s as well as Wrath/Settle effects in order to beat RR.
The problem with energy decks is that they are an aggro deck, that has an amazing midgame due to Whirler Virtuoso making tokens and it runs on 3-4 colored mana to boot. That in itself is hard to replicate when the deck has access to blue mana for card draw and counters (rogue refiner, negate, etc...) it has access to red mana for burn (shock, harnessed lightning) and creatures (glorybringer, whirler) and black mana sometimes for removal (push) or duress or the scarab god. Of course, the base is green to play attune, cub, hydra, etc...
So, that is the problem with the deck it has a fast start, and it keeps up the speed without running out of cards, I played against a few energy decks and I was running out of cards faster than them even though I am playing a control deck. They also have a lot of threats and even a lone whirler virtuoso can make 2-3 tokens quickly to beat down on you.
If energy gets cut down to size on Monday by having some of its toys banned then all the other amazing cards in this Standard format can finally shine, and some decks which are really good but can't deal with energy will finally get their time in the Sun. Let's hope for the best!
Until then, it may be possible to play baffling end to get rid of a growing cub, or even a whirler virtuoso.
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If energy gets cut down to size on Monday by having some of its toys banned then all the other amazing cards in this Standard format can finally shine, and some decks which are really good but can't deal with energy will finally get their time in the Sun. Let's hope for the best!
How many of its toys would have to be removed to accomplish this? Would Aether Hub + Attune with Aether be enough? It would probably require both of those at minimum.
If energy gets cut down to size on Monday by having some of its toys banned then all the other amazing cards in this Standard format can finally shine, and some decks which are really good but can't deal with energy will finally get their time in the Sun. Let's hope for the best!
How many of its toys would have to be removed to accomplish this? Would Aether Hub + Attune with Aether be enough? It would probably require both of those at minimum.
Aether hub is not a problem, attune with aether and whirler virtuoso are the cards that make the deck fast and mid rangey. Especially without whirler the deck will run out of steam and not depend on energy so much to win.
I'm not sure what they will ban but if they don't then energy will continue to rule until September.
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The wraths are the safety valve you have to depend on because point and shoot removal has more limitations than missing just 1 indestructible target.
Harness is great if you're building up a lot of energy but if you're not Energy creatures will outsize your energy limit. Aether meltdown is also decent but can be outsized or just 'hex proofed' when you cast.
Since no mana has to be expended to use energy the natural limitations the game has for itself are ignored and then theres Blossoming Defense.
The problem is red removal is great early game and against Ramred but not great against energy/lategame. Other than the red wrath, you cannot deal with Hazoret. So it will come down to your meta and what you expect to deal with.
UR was great for a while but has failed in the current energy/ramredness of the world. Esper gives you a nice mix (UB to a lesser degree). You have access to instant conditional removal and wraths that will get everything.
What Greyimp said. IMO, Approach needs to be a UWx deck, splash a third color for spot removal and sideboard options. If you are planning on running a UR list with a splash for Approach, you probably won't be able to run the white sweepers, Settle and Fumigate, because of needing double white for both. Those are 2 of the best sweepers in Standard right now.
I have tried both Jeskai and Esper, with pretty similar results. So it comes down to what you like the best. One has Abrade , Glorybringer and The Locust God. The other has Vrasha's Contempt , Duress and The Scarab God. Red seems to be better against a more aggro meta and Esper feels stronger against mostly Temur. But that could just be the differences in my list. My Jeskai lists run Gideon main and my Esper runs Gearhulk main (so I can turn the deck into a UB Control list G2/3).
Thank you both for the responses; I appreciate it! I was sort of feeling Settle the Wreckage was dead because of Admiral's Orders but I am probably over-reacting a bit. My son plays Temur and the match-up is hard enough already!
Baffling End does look promising! While I was testing out Jeskai I played a The Locust God and that felt really natural because the Approach decks are already so card-draw and cycling focused. I will look into that option more.
Wait until after Monday before you commit.
If they nerf Energy it could change the options.
If they nerf Energy and RR then for sure it will change things.
All the new tribes feel like each are lacking a piece to make them as good as the top 2 right now. Without a nerf... well you know your meta go with that.
With one, things will open up a lot and different Strats will surface, also give control and bring it back strategies a chance.
Wait until after Monday before you commit.
If they nerf Energy it could change the options.
If they nerf Energy and RR then for sure it will change things.
All the new tribes feel like each are lacking a piece to make them as good as the top 2 right now. Without a nerf... well you know your meta go with that.
With one, things will open up a lot and different Strats will surface, also give control and bring it back strategies a chance.
Monday ban... don't have hope, but wait for it
I am already going to be testing baffling end main deck instead of cast out, since it can't hurt against creature decks to exile something turn 2 (RR and energy or mono black) and if the deck is low on creatures I can always discard it to farm/market or to champion of wits both of which I play 3 copies of main deck right now.
Right now cast out is mainly to deal with planeswalkers, but if there aren't any in my opp's main deck or if I get to counter them then cast out doesn't do much, and I don't need to use it for card draw either. Having 4 Essence Scatter and 3 Baffling End main deck makes me feel safer against being able to respond to an annoying creature turn 2, then use farm turn 3 and roll into settle the wreckage turn 4 and fumigate turn 5.
Still hoping that energy will lose either attune with aether or whirler virtuoso or both!
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Imo, I don't think it's a choice between Baffling End and Cast Out. I think regardless of what removal you have at the 2-mana slot Cast Out is necessary for Scarab God, Hazoret, Chandra ToD, Vraska, etc.
Still hoping for Attune to go. I want Energy to go back to straight Temur since Duress is really annoying.
Imo, I don't think it's a choice between Baffling End and Cast Out. I think regardless of what removal you have at the 2-mana slot Cast Out is necessary for Scarab God, Hazoret, Chandra ToD, Vraska, etc.
Still hoping for Attune to go. I want Energy to go back to straight Temur since Duress is really annoying.
Scarab god is not so scary first game, the player has to still play around farm, settle and fumigate. Second game we can bring in cast out from the sideboard and other things to remove it from the game, but we also have counters main deck and other ways to deal with creatures so it's not a washout. Hazoret has to go around setle the wreckage or counter magic and even then it is not that dangerous.
I am more worried about cubs, whirler virtuoso or a lone rogue refiner keep dealing damage without the opp needing to add more creatures to the table, so if we don't want to waste a settle the wreckage on one guy we need to use farm or baffling end to force the opp to add more guys to the table for settle or fumigate.
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I think Wizards is going to do ban 1-3 cards from Entergy Monday. If that happens it is going to open up the format, not necessarily in our favor. Right now, Temur is keeping Ramp Red in check. As well as all the others aggro decks. Once Temur is cut off at the knees, I feel like, with the new set, the meta is going to become a lot faster. Even if nothing gets banned, there are going to be a lot of tribal decks that are very fast, which is currently the best way to beat energy decks (other than control ). We are going to have to adjust our list to accommodate that. I personally don't like to see cards getting banned. Players have spent a lot of money and time building energy decks just so wizards can come back and say they are too strong. It is not good for the game. Don't get me wrong, Temur Energy is not good for standard, the mechanic should have never been printed, but that is a different conversation.
One card I have been playing testing is Slaughter the Strong and been very happy with it. 3 mana to cut the board down to just 0-2 creatures has been doing a lot of work so far. And because it is a sacrifice not a destroy it hits everything. Not 100% sold on it and really not sure what I would cut from my list to make it fit, but will keep testing. Let me know if you guys find anything with the new set that really stands out and your thoughts on the upcoming banning tomorrow.
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
One card I have been playing testing is Slaughter the Strong and been very happy with it. 3 mana to cut the board down to just 0-2 creatures has been doing a lot of work so far. And because it is a sacrifice not a destroy it hits everything. Not 100% sold on it and really not sure what I would cut from my list to make it fit, but will keep testing. Let me know if you guys find anything with the new set that really stands out and your thoughts on the upcoming banning tomorrow.
Was just about to ask about this one. Certainly looks usable. Perhaps as a two of. And compliments our other two board sweepers.
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Baffling End
Slaughter the Strong - For Hazoret
Flood of Recollection - To get back a countered approach
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Baffling End does do it's job. Perhaps a build that pushes towards Ascend for some reason. Kumena's Awakening seems jank.
Golden Guardian is almost tempting to use as a defender then transform it to make an army but 4 mana to get on the board leaves you tapped out and behind on T4. You have to have 2 mana out to transform it vs removal or Glorybringer
Not even a Plainswalkers that will work with control. This is how far off balance to creature feature design STILL is pushing.
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C Long Live Eldrazi C
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
How so? Exactly what do you plan to exile with it? Bomat Courier? Earthshaker Khenra? Another 1/1 or 2/1? That doesn't answer anything, one for one removal is not good, settle the wreckage is enough to deal with ramunap red, as is 4 copies of Essence Scatter main deck so you can counter their threats.
You can use Baffling End better against energy decks, you can use it on cub, snake, even rogue refiner if you need to.
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Mtg Lifestyle
You don't take damage from an attack.
You gain 2 life padding (likely trading for the other creature you couldn't stop)
Esper is going to have a sweet spot although Aether Meltdown gets you half of that and they don't get to Eternalize Earthshaker Khenra which benefits you later.
Baffling End is better against energy but post board they're likely to get that 3/3 or outright counter your sorcery.
Admiral's Order is going to be a problem going forward.
Also transitioning to more of a haste creature deck for G2 & G3 where maybe I can use Admiral's Order to protect Approach of the Second Sun has some appeal.
Thanks!
Harness is great if you're building up a lot of energy but if you're not Energy creatures will outsize your energy limit. Aether meltdown is also decent but can be outsized or just 'hex proofed' when you cast.
Since no mana has to be expended to use energy the natural limitations the game has for itself are ignored and then theres Blossoming Defense.
The problem is red removal is great early game and against Ramred but not great against energy/lategame. Other than the red wrath, you cannot deal with Hazoret. So it will come down to your meta and what you expect to deal with.
UR was great for a while but has failed in the current energy/ramredness of the world. Esper gives you a nice mix (UB to a lesser degree). You have access to instant conditional removal and wraths that will get everything.
I have tried both Jeskai and Esper, with pretty similar results. So it comes down to what you like the best. One has Abrade , Glorybringer and The Locust God. The other has Vrasha's Contempt , Duress and The Scarab God. Red seems to be better against a more aggro meta and Esper feels stronger against mostly Temur. But that could just be the differences in my list. My Jeskai lists run Gideon main and my Esper runs Gearhulk main (so I can turn the deck into a UB Control list G2/3).
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
C Long Live Eldrazi C
you can also exile a rampaging ferocidon
So, that is the problem with the deck it has a fast start, and it keeps up the speed without running out of cards, I played against a few energy decks and I was running out of cards faster than them even though I am playing a control deck. They also have a lot of threats and even a lone whirler virtuoso can make 2-3 tokens quickly to beat down on you.
If energy gets cut down to size on Monday by having some of its toys banned then all the other amazing cards in this Standard format can finally shine, and some decks which are really good but can't deal with energy will finally get their time in the Sun. Let's hope for the best!
Until then, it may be possible to play baffling end to get rid of a growing cub, or even a whirler virtuoso.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Aether hub is not a problem, attune with aether and whirler virtuoso are the cards that make the deck fast and mid rangey. Especially without whirler the deck will run out of steam and not depend on energy so much to win.
I'm not sure what they will ban but if they don't then energy will continue to rule until September.
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Mtg Lifestyle
Thank you both for the responses; I appreciate it! I was sort of feeling Settle the Wreckage was dead because of Admiral's Orders but I am probably over-reacting a bit. My son plays Temur and the match-up is hard enough already!
Baffling End does look promising! While I was testing out Jeskai I played a The Locust God and that felt really natural because the Approach decks are already so card-draw and cycling focused. I will look into that option more.
If they nerf Energy it could change the options.
If they nerf Energy and RR then for sure it will change things.
All the new tribes feel like each are lacking a piece to make them as good as the top 2 right now. Without a nerf... well you know your meta go with that.
With one, things will open up a lot and different Strats will surface, also give control and bring it back strategies a chance.
Monday ban... don't have hope, but wait for it
I am already going to be testing baffling end main deck instead of cast out, since it can't hurt against creature decks to exile something turn 2 (RR and energy or mono black) and if the deck is low on creatures I can always discard it to farm/market or to champion of wits both of which I play 3 copies of main deck right now.
Right now cast out is mainly to deal with planeswalkers, but if there aren't any in my opp's main deck or if I get to counter them then cast out doesn't do much, and I don't need to use it for card draw either. Having 4 Essence Scatter and 3 Baffling End main deck makes me feel safer against being able to respond to an annoying creature turn 2, then use farm turn 3 and roll into settle the wreckage turn 4 and fumigate turn 5.
Still hoping that energy will lose either attune with aether or whirler virtuoso or both!
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
Still hoping for Attune to go. I want Energy to go back to straight Temur since Duress is really annoying.
Scarab god is not so scary first game, the player has to still play around farm, settle and fumigate. Second game we can bring in cast out from the sideboard and other things to remove it from the game, but we also have counters main deck and other ways to deal with creatures so it's not a washout. Hazoret has to go around setle the wreckage or counter magic and even then it is not that dangerous.
I am more worried about cubs, whirler virtuoso or a lone rogue refiner keep dealing damage without the opp needing to add more creatures to the table, so if we don't want to waste a settle the wreckage on one guy we need to use farm or baffling end to force the opp to add more guys to the table for settle or fumigate.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
One card I have been playing testing is Slaughter the Strong and been very happy with it. 3 mana to cut the board down to just 0-2 creatures has been doing a lot of work so far. And because it is a sacrifice not a destroy it hits everything. Not 100% sold on it and really not sure what I would cut from my list to make it fit, but will keep testing. Let me know if you guys find anything with the new set that really stands out and your thoughts on the upcoming banning tomorrow.
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
C Long Live Eldrazi C