Has any of you guys tested Karn yet? I added 2 of them to my U/B list and the result has been good so far especially against midrange and other control deck. Also what is your experience as U/B going up against the U/W teferi control?
Hey guys I participated in a PPTQ on Saturday and went 3-2. It was small with only 13 people with 5 rounds and a cut to top 4. I thought the deck had the tools to win, but ultimately I didn't practice enough and performed poorly. Here is what I registered.
My local store had sold out of all the control staples a week previous, so I meta-gamed a little to include more disruption mainboard and less Fatal Push. Additionally I was not able to assemble all of my cards in time for the event so some of the 75 was incomplete, including fewer Lyra Dawnbringer, and substitutions for the forth Disallow and Settle the Wreckage.
I was familiar with this player having tested with him, but he brought control instead of aggro like he tested with before. Control mirrors are my favourite games and I'm pretty experienced with them, so I often feel favoured. Game 1 was pretty back and forth casting draw spells that neither player countered, discarding Settle the Wreckage and Fumigate to hand size and keeping Teferi, Hero of Dominaria off the board. Eventually he casts Approach of the Second Sun and tapped out, allowing me to resolve Teferi and take over the game with card and mana advantage and, in time, his ultimate. After cutting his blue sources off we went to game 2.
Game 2 I keep two lands with some cycling cards, but stumble on mana while he plays land each turn and resolves Teferi. Card is fairly hard to beat if it sticks since post-board Negate is there to protect it at their end step. He then plays Nezahal, Primal Tide on T7 and after dealing with my slower T9 blue dinosaur I concede.
Game 3 I disrupt him early with discard and force through a Teferi. I wait until there is no threat of Commit // Memory, which I'm not even sure he registered, and play Nezahal. He fights it with removal backed with counters, causing me to counter back and discard 6 cards. However Teferi activations and Nezahal triggers drew enough for me to win that fight and end the game in swift order. I was expecting Arguel's Bloodfast to score me a huge advantage but it never showed up. 1-0.
I also knew this player as he was a spike that played in my home town, and he had traveled to play at my new locale. I knew I had to play tight to win. Game 1 was a drawn out match in which I almost stabilized, however Heart of Kiran and History of Benalia were difficult for me to deal with even as I got rid of most of the other threats. I was going to lean on Settle the Wreckage as an out while I spent my removal 1-for-1 but it never came.
In retrospect, I feel as if I should have sided in Duress and boarded out some number of Seal Away. I was not ready for the match though, as he transformed into a much more midrange/control deck than I expected with many planeswalkers.
Game 2 I feel like I keep a reasonable hand with some creature removal and counters. T2 I Syncopate a Scrapheap Scrounger and follow T3 Negate for History of Benalia. T4 however Karn, Scion of Urza lands with no response from my side. He takes over the game slowly and I lose to an incredible amount of card Karn advantage. After Liliana, Death's Majesty flips a Lyra into the graveyard and he plays two vehicles in one turn I'm toast. My mistake here is that I should have saved my Syncopate as I had other ways to deal with the threat in my hand and the rest of the game my life total was quite high until I definitively lost. 1-1.
Another local player I knew, and we had sat beside each other in the last round so we knew what we were in store for. Game 1 lasts far too long and was in his favour for a while, with active Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, until I forced his counterspells with Torrential Gearhulk, slip in a Search for Azcanta and transform after clearing a Field of Ruin he had tapped for mana and have a Teferi of my own. He runs of out permission and I get to do what I want with The Scarab God accessing both graveyards for Gearhulks. Strangely enough I had seen a Glimmer of Genius in his hand early in the game with a Doomfall which he stubbornly held on to when I had mana up. I never usually counter my opponent's draw spells in a control mirror unless it draws 4 cards or more, but I suppose it was to my benefit.
I experiment here by going down all my spot removal and bringing an extra threat in Lyra.
Game 2 is a pretty brutal spanking, as I struggle to find my third and forth land after cycling 4 cards and getting my Azcanta exiled. I Duress him a couple times a bit jokingly, but he runs well even after discard. He resolves Teferi and a Gearhulk and I concede as we have 15 minutes left in the round.
Game 3 we try to play as quick as possible, but he stumbles on one land drop behind remaining at 5 lands while on my 7 lands I play Nezahal. He plays Gideon of the Trials and Sorcerous Spyglass to check it for multiple turns until I play Teferi. My mistake here was leaving Gideon on the battlefield and instead drawing cards. Time is called and I Gearhulk on his end step to draw more cards, thinking I could get an answer for Gideon. I do in Vraska's Contempt, but at Turn 5 I can only get him down to 1 life. He graciously concedes, as I have board advantage. 2-1.
Finally a player I don't know personally, but I had seen him dismantle people's slower draws as he always had time to get up and go for a smoke. He leads with Siren Stormtamer after winning the die roll, and then proceeds to chuck a few burn spells and small creatures at me while I stare at my removal spells wondering what went wrong. I do remove some of his creatures, but the Siren keeps the important ones alive and I receive one too many Wizard's Lightning to the dome with no permission or sweepers.
My thoughts here are to take out the slower cards and put in life gain with faster interaction. Lyra is also a house against red decks in theory. Unfortunately I never saw her. I should have also considered Duress as an option, since his list seemed burn heavy and I could grab his post-board permission.
Game 2 I mulligan so that I can find Authority of the Consuls, which I do get in my hand of 6. I play a tapped land T1 hoping he has no play, which is the case. An ideal start and I feel as though I can win. It gains me at least 8 life while protecting me from haste creatures. I test if he has counterspells on T4 with a draw spell to which he responds with Opt. I put him on not having it, but still play around Spell Pierce and cast Teferi T5 to bait. It actually resolves and I bounce a Ghitu Lavarunner who had a counter on it from Metallic Mimic, fearing the extra damage and assuming he'd ignore my planeswalker. He targets it with Shock end of turn and attacks me down. Settle the Wreckage on T6 gets 3 creatures. He responds with 9 points of burn while his wizards are still on the field. We both don't have much after that, with me going down to 1 life after removing his follow up creature.
This is the point where I mess up. He plays Riddleform with a card in hand, passes. I also draw, land, pass. I have a Vraska's Contempt in hand, so I feel comfortable. He draws and slams Siren Stormtamer and I respond with cycling Hieroglyphic Illumination to find an answer, as I am very dead to that creature. I find Seal Away, let the creature resolve since it comes in tapped, and snap it off. I then allow him to cast Warlord's Fury so he can trigger the Riddleform, stop him after the trigger resolves but before his spell and go to tap mana for Contempt. I look down, realizing I have only 1 black source, having tapped my other one in for Seal Away. I feel terrible, but try not to look concerned as I allow him to proceed with his turn. He attacks me and I die. Very disappointed with myself, as I might have stabilized from there with Contempt putting me at 4 life to still fade at least one more burn spell. I also missed an Authority trigger earlier in the game to gain 1 life, but it was irrelevant at the end. Salt. 2-2.
My opponent is another local who knew he couldn't make Top 4 so he conceded right away. Unfortunately with my losses and small player attendance I had no chance of making Top 4 even though my opponent conceded. We played for fun and he drops T2 maindeck Arguel's Bloodfast and out cards me with a couple Karn, Scion of Urza while clocking me with Gideon of the Trials. Deck was sweet and I lost badly. Post board I think it would have gone better, but the Bloodfast drew him about a million cards off the bat so I lost handily. If I were to board it might look like this.
Essentially the control board, complete with Nezahal since I will still draw cards from his non-creature spells and blank removal. More Seal Away stay in because it gets Gideon, but Scarab God comes out because he was essentially creatureless.
Overall I feel the deck had legs and was fun to play with many options to answer most opponent's game plans, but my poor play and inexperience with the newer format led to losses that could have been prevented, such as mis-tapping my mana in Round 4.
The 75 was not optimal, and I think knowing where the deck's weaknesses lie I would change the sideboard to accommodate. I did not board in Profane Procession in a single game and will likely find room for another Forsake the Worldly to combat WB Vehicles. Fatal Push will go back in the mainboard and perhaps I will have a Negate instead of an Essence Scatter.
More answers to things such as Karn, Scion of Urza, are likely necessary since I kept losing to it. I am unsure if putting Karn in the deck is the way forward, as T4 is this deck's catch up turn with Settle the Wreckage, Vraska's Contempt, and Hieroglyphic Illumination. A midrange or superfriends build that can protect the walkers more reliably would probably fit better.
TBH, this is version 1.1 of the deck. I had a bad arm injury, so I spent the past 3 weeks goldfishing, and played 2 FNMs (4-0, 3-1). No real testing, as I was one-armed.
Mana Base - Greed, and lack of testing. Was 2 Field, but made it a 2nd Swamp. I miss having 3-4 Field , but it doesn't seem too bad. The mana has only failed me once, as you'll see below.
Cast Down, No Fatal Push - As I said in earlier discussions, I don't want to lose to Steel Leaf, and there's not many Kari Zevs around. I've still beaten mono Red, so I don't regret it. Cast Down is amazing.
SB Karn - I play an all foil deck, I got the foil Karn at the FNM before the SCG event, and hadn't tested it. I wasn't sure, but it seemed solid. I had Approach Of The Second Sun in the board, and chucked it for Karn. Version 1.0 strat was to side in Approach, and go all defense and draw against decks with no way to stop it. Still unsure how I feel about it. I rate Teferi a 10, Karn feels like a 7 so far.
Sunscourge Champion: Was unsure about Lyra, as I expected Puncturing Blow and Unlicensed Disintegration and didn't want to spend $100 on two foils untested. (I won a box over two FNMs, and it was trash, so I was operating on cash, as I opened only 2 +10 dollar cards, History and Mox, and trash foils... )
I beat GW Angel Midrange (grindy, but I was never in too much trouble. Scarab Godding his Shalai was just WRONG), Mono Red (one sided), and Mono Green (one-sided). Lost to:
- Mono Green (No Settle Game 3 despite drawing several extra cards, vs. several cheap 3+ power creatures, got chipped away)
- U/W Control (He won the die roll, he stuck his 1 Gideon Of The Trials on T3 and protected it . Game 2, I draw only 1 Essence Scatter as countermagic until turn T13 or so, despite T2 Search For Azcanta, and several cycles/draws. No Duress either. I land Karn, but he whiffs, then he bounces it. He sticks Teferi, draws incredibly, and I never resolve another spell for the rest of the game. He came in 10th.
- Mono Red God-Pharoah's Gift (Game 2, he goes off T4, I can't kill enough, no Disallow. Game 3, I have double Settle in hand, and don't get the second W source. He came in 11th.
This deck is really powerful, I feel like I just need to refine the deck to the new metagame. My 3 wins, and all my FNM wins were pretty easy and mostly one-sided. Rumors of Scarab God's demise were greatly exaggerated. It still flat out wins games. I love Settle, but I would play white just for Teferi. It's easily my new favorite card, and is busted. It's really absurd, especially with the deck being all instants, and with high powered 2s and 3s.
Changes I've made so far:
MD:
-1 Search
+1 Karn
SB
-1 Karn
-2 Sunscourge Champion
+2 Lyra Dawnbringer (All of my aggro opponents asked why I didn't have it, but only 1 or 2 had any real plan for it. Oh well, got two for 90, so that's that.) Also, I can bring it back with Scarab God.
+1 Doomfall - Good vs. midrange and control. Wanted another Negate or Duress, but I feel this is a good middle ground. Still unsure about this slot. Might just end up a 4th Settle, to avoid the "no Settle" crap against green decks, which was my one loss at FNM over the past 2 weeks. I hate punk-a$$ Carnage Tyrant.
Glad to know the deck has game against multiple decks in the format.
When you brought in Karn did you have trouble protecting him? Or was the high loyalty enough? Also why Moment of Craving instead of Seal Away? Seems decent against the likes of Steel Leaf Champion and other creatures above 2 toughness. Against Mono-Green was Llanowar Elves a concern without Fatal Push?
How do you end up with a 5-round tournament for less than 16 people? Am I missing something?
I am unsure myself, but when the presiding judge explained it the structure made sense. Something to do with brackets being different between 9-12 players and 13-16 players.
Glad to know the deck has game against multiple decks in the format.
When you brought in Karn did you have trouble protecting him? Or was the high loyalty enough? Also why Moment of Craving instead of Seal Away? Seems decent against the likes of Steel Leaf Champion and other creatures above 2 toughness. Against Mono-Green was Llanowar Elves a concern without Fatal Push?
I've only brought in Karn a few times, but he wasn't hard to protect due to the high loyalty. I never fought over him for like, Cast Out vs. Approach. That was a strategic decision, as I already got value out of him, and had nothing but lands stranded. BTW, one of my LGSs got a foil Karn, so I picked it up yesterday, going to try 2 MD. I think that will be better, and mitigate good cards being stranded.
I'm playing Moment Of Craving to keep the "life-gain removal" advantage that I had with UB. It kills almost every T1 and T2 (and several T3) creature, and is still great against aggro. Also, no weakness to enchantment removal (no enchantment removal is 100% intentional, I like things dead for good) or vigilance. The minus toughness effect is useful sometimes. I have double Momented Hazoret several times, for instance. Another thing I don't like about Seal Away, it and Settle look REALLY bad against Scarab God plus anything draining you every turn, while fixing my draws to protect it. Been doing that already.
Stuff like Steel Leaf is why I insist on Cast Down. I'm thinking of going back to 4. I love it more the more I play it.
Llanowar Elves never really concerned me. I may have taken a couple chip hits from them until I Settled, or had free mana and cards to kill them. Cast Down let me kill everything they ramped to, which was more important. I don't miss Fatal Push at all, though I concede I haven't played any Vehicles yet, and Heart Of Kiran may be problematic (Seal Away doesn't work here, either though...Moment on the enabler does buy back 2 of the 4 life. I can double Moment in a pinch). On the play, I often "wasted" a Moment on them, as it was a "free" 2 life and a virtual land destruction spell. Worked out great, actually.
I like the look of that list, as a base. Need to get my lands together for esper.
A few thoughts:
1. Fumigate with it over the 4th settle? One more mana, but it's 'unconditional'.
2. With the expected rise in uw, is Blood Fast worth looking at in the board?
3. Commit/memory? As a one of. Seeing Hulk can instant speed it and it with teferi...
4. I get why the wilds is there, but could it be a 2nd ruin?
Glad to know the deck has game against multiple decks in the format.
When you brought in Karn did you have trouble protecting him? Or was the high loyalty enough? Also why Moment of Craving instead of Seal Away? Seems decent against the likes of Steel Leaf Champion and other creatures above 2 toughness. Against Mono-Green was Llanowar Elves a concern without Fatal Push?
I've only brought in Karn a few times, but he wasn't hard to protect due to the high loyalty. I never fought over him for like, Cast Out vs. Approach. That was a strategic decision, as I already got value out of him, and had nothing but lands stranded. BTW, one of my LGSs got a foil Karn, so I picked it up yesterday, going to try 2 MD. I think that will be better, and mitigate good cards being stranded.
I'm playing Moment Of Craving to keep the "life-gain removal" advantage that I had with UB. It kills almost every T1 and T2 (and several T3) creature, and is still great against aggro. Also, no weakness to enchantment removal (no enchantment removal is 100% intentional, I like things dead for good) or vigilance. The minus toughness effect is useful sometimes. I have double Momented Hazoret several times, for instance. Another thing I don't like about Seal Away, it and Settle look REALLY bad against Scarab God plus anything draining you every turn, while fixing my draws to protect it. Been doing that already.
Stuff like Steel Leaf is why I insist on Cast Down. I'm thinking of going back to 4. I love it more the more I play it.
Llanowar Elves never really concerned me. I may have taken a couple chip hits from them until I Settled, or had free mana and cards to kill them. Cast Down let me kill everything they ramped to, which was more important. I don't miss Fatal Push at all, though I concede I haven't played any Vehicles yet, and Heart Of Kiran may be problematic (Seal Away doesn't work here, either though...Moment on the enabler does buy back 2 of the 4 life. I can double Moment in a pinch). On the play, I often "wasted" a Moment on them, as it was a "free" 2 life and a virtual land destruction spell. Worked out great, actually.
I'm not a huge fan of Karn in the Esper Control shell, we have way more important plays on turn 4 and he doesn't effect the board without being able to - on his loyalty.
I also agree on Seal Away over Craving, especially if your concern is enchantment removal. Only G/B runs dedicated MD enchantment removal and seal away deals with almost every threat in the format. I'd rather play fatal push, as it can grab Elves/Couriers on turn 1. I like keeping two mana up for seal away or syncopate and then the curve goes perfectly into disallow/settle or glimpse, teferi/scarab god and then gearhulk.
You havn't played any vehicles yet but after it's huge showing at the last event you are going to need a lot of MD ways of dealing with heart, so give fatal push another consideration.
I like the look of that list, as a base. Need to get my lands together for esper.
A few thoughts:
1. Fumigate with it over the 4th settle? One more mana, but it's 'unconditional'.
2. With the expected rise in uw, is Blood Fast worth looking at in the board?
3. Commit/memory? As a one of. Seeing Hulk can instant speed it and it with teferi...
4. I get why the wilds is there, but could it be a 2nd ruin?
I think NSC's landbase needs some work, especially with the ruin and wild's numbers.
To answer your questions
1) Fumigate has become a SB card, because without tokens being around and settle taking care of most threats it's just not killing a lot of creatures most board states
2) Blood Fast is an auto add in the sideboard, it's amazing against opposing control decks
3) Commit/Memory has fallen out of my 75 but I might bring it back as a 1 of, it just has so much range and is an amazing card
4) I'd run more ruins personally and if you want to enable bigger fatal pushes i'd run more wilds too. There needs to be more basics in the deck too, otherwise you are going to have more games where you are going to have turn 1 and two taplands and that is no good.
Thabks for the answers. I agree with you on the manabase.
Do you have an esper list built that you'd be willing to post?
I haven't developed my own yet, but it would be similar to NSC's but running a commit and probably pushes and seal aways. I prefer glimmer to heiro, but that's probably too greedy.
I like the look of that list, as a base. Need to get my lands together for esper.
A few thoughts:
1. Fumigate with it over the 4th settle? One more mana, but it's 'unconditional'.
2. With the expected rise in uw, is Blood Fast worth looking at in the board?
3. Commit/memory? As a one of. Seeing Hulk can instant speed it and it with teferi...
4. I get why the wilds is there, but could it be a 2nd ruin?
1. I'm considering Fumigate due to requiring WW a turn later, as well as Shalai being good against Settle (lost an otherwise unlosable game due to this). I wanted to stay all instants, but Fumigate may be worth it.
2. I'm on 4 Duress, 3 Negate now. Was considering ABF, but unsure if I want less Duress, as it's great for catching Gideons and Karns before they can drop them. Probably about 75% it will find it's way in there.
3. I love Commit, just didn't have room. It's always in the back of my mind also. Memory could be good with my large amount of exile effects.
4. It was originally. I really want more Fields, but vs. mono red or green, there were games where there were no non-basic lands to blow up, which prevented me from mana fixing. The Wilds was a concession to that.
I'm not a huge fan of Karn in the Esper Control shell, we have way more important plays on turn 4 and he doesn't effect the board without being able to - on his loyalty.
I also agree on Seal Away over Craving, especially if your concern is enchantment removal. Only G/B runs dedicated MD enchantment removal and seal away deals with almost every threat in the format. I'd rather play fatal push, as it can grab Elves/Couriers on turn 1. I like keeping two mana up for seal away or syncopate and then the curve goes perfectly into disallow/settle or glimpse, teferi/scarab god and then gearhulk.
You havn't played any vehicles yet but after it's huge showing at the last event you are going to need a lot of MD ways of dealing with heart, so give fatal push another consideration.
I think NSC's landbase needs some work, especially with the ruin and wild's numbers.
To answer your questions
1) Fumigate has become a SB card, because without tokens being around and settle taking care of most threats it's just not killing a lot of creatures most board states
2) Blood Fast is an auto add in the sideboard, it's amazing against opposing control decks
3) Commit/Memory has fallen out of my 75 but I might bring it back as a 1 of, it just has so much range and is an amazing card
4) I'd run more ruins personally and if you want to enable bigger fatal pushes i'd run more wilds too. There needs to be more basics in the deck too, otherwise you are going to have more games where you are going to have turn 1 and two taplands and that is no good.
I agree, I'm liking Karn less and less the more I play it. Thinking they will become a 3rd Teferi (Control MVP) and something else. Commit, Gearhulk, 4th Settle, 4th Essence Scatter, Fumigate, something.
Not doing Seal Away, there are a LOT of Brontodons in my local meta. Mono green, GB Snake, Ramp. It also doesn't help the Heart Of Kiran issue. The life gain of Craving it still good, too. Mono red GPG, Vehicles, W/B Knights, all aggro decks I've faced lately where Moment shined.
I am considering Push in the SB for Vehicles, I played against it and lost, due to not drawing Settle or Vraska's Contempt, the only answers for HOK main. I switched from Forsake to Invoke The Divine SB for Vehicles, but didn't draw any That's variance, but I feel I need to shore that match up some. The reason I don't like Push is I only have 2 Revolt outlets, and as I said earlier, my meta has a good amount of Steel Leafs. Cast Down has still been excellent otherwise. I am also thinking Invoke #3, as the life gain is great there also. Just have to draw them...
As far as the manabase, I'm open to suggestions. I admit that's not my strong suit. I was considering dumping Settle, so I could drop W sources, and be more like old UB with just Teferi, and the SB cards, but Settle solves SO MANY issues right now, including the ridiculous amount of Carnage Tyrants I have to see. I was thinking cutting like 2 Glacial Fortress and 2 Irrigated Farmland and adding like 1 Plains, 1 Island 1 Field, 1 Wilds so I can search for the W sources, but I would have to test it. The way it is now is greedy, but 1 cycle land, and all my check lands come into play untapped, and it works pretty well. Extra cycle lands just become draw. Between them and Illumination, I can usually dig out of an iffy starting hand easily. This is somewhere I would want the 4th Scatter, as it's great with T5 Teferi, and keeping the board from getting out of control while digging.
@corranhorn01 - I also considered Pull From Tomorrow, another favorite of mine, but 1. I want to stay on Gearhulk, and that's a non-bo. and 2. It's not good in the control mirror. Post board, It's basically a high priced, instant speed Duress. It is the truth against midrange though...maybe sub an Illumination for one as a mid-late game bomb?
Thabks for the answers. I agree with you on the manabase.
Do you have an esper list built that you'd be willing to post?
I haven't developed my own yet, but it would be similar to NSC's but running a commit and probably pushes and seal aways. I prefer glimmer to heiro, but that's probably too greedy.
I like the look of that list, as a base. Need to get my lands together for esper.
A few thoughts:
1. Fumigate with it over the 4th settle? One more mana, but it's 'unconditional'.
2. With the expected rise in uw, is Blood Fast worth looking at in the board?
3. Commit/memory? As a one of. Seeing Hulk can instant speed it and it with teferi...
4. I get why the wilds is there, but could it be a 2nd ruin?
1. I'm considering Fumigate due to requiring WW a turn later, as well as Shalai being good against Settle (lost an otherwise unlosable game due to this). I wanted to stay all instants, but Fumigate may be worth it.
2. I'm on 4 Duress, 3 Negate now. Was considering ABF, but unsure if I want less Duress, as it's great for catching Gideons and Karns before they can drop them. Probably about 75% it will find it's way in there.
3. I love Commit, just didn't have room. It's always in the back of my mind also. Memory could be good with my large amount of exile effects.
4. It was originally. I really want more Fields, but vs. mono red or green, there were games where there were no non-basic lands to blow up, which prevented me from mana fixing. The Wilds was a concession to that.
I'm not a huge fan of Karn in the Esper Control shell, we have way more important plays on turn 4 and he doesn't effect the board without being able to - on his loyalty.
I also agree on Seal Away over Craving, especially if your concern is enchantment removal. Only G/B runs dedicated MD enchantment removal and seal away deals with almost every threat in the format. I'd rather play fatal push, as it can grab Elves/Couriers on turn 1. I like keeping two mana up for seal away or syncopate and then the curve goes perfectly into disallow/settle or glimpse, teferi/scarab god and then gearhulk.
You havn't played any vehicles yet but after it's huge showing at the last event you are going to need a lot of MD ways of dealing with heart, so give fatal push another consideration.
I think NSC's landbase needs some work, especially with the ruin and wild's numbers.
To answer your questions
1) Fumigate has become a SB card, because without tokens being around and settle taking care of most threats it's just not killing a lot of creatures most board states
2) Blood Fast is an auto add in the sideboard, it's amazing against opposing control decks
3) Commit/Memory has fallen out of my 75 but I might bring it back as a 1 of, it just has so much range and is an amazing card
4) I'd run more ruins personally and if you want to enable bigger fatal pushes i'd run more wilds too. There needs to be more basics in the deck too, otherwise you are going to have more games where you are going to have turn 1 and two taplands and that is no good.
I agree, I'm liking Karn less and less the more I play it. Thinking they will become a 3rd Teferi (Control MVP) and something else. Commit, Gearhulk, 4th Settle, 4th Essence Scatter, Fumigate, something.
Not doing Seal Away, there are a LOT of Brontodons in my local meta. Mono green, GB Snake, Ramp. It also doesn't help the Heart Of Kiran issue. The life gain of Craving it still good, too. Mono red GPG, Vehicles, W/B Knights, all aggro decks I've faced lately where Moment shined.
I am considering Push in the SB for Vehicles, I played against it and lost, due to not drawing Settle or Vraska's Contempt, the only answers for HOK main. I switched from Forsake to Invoke The Divine SB for Vehicles, but didn't draw any That's variance, but I feel I need to shore that match up some. The reason I don't like Push is I only have 2 Revolt outlets, and as I said earlier, my meta has a good amount of Steel Leafs. Cast Down has still been excellent otherwise. I am also thinking Invoke #3, as the life gain is great there also. Just have to draw them...
As far as the manabase, I'm open to suggestions. I admit that's not my strong suit. I was considering dumping Settle, so I could drop W sources, and be more like old UB with just Teferi, and the SB cards, but Settle solves SO MANY issues right now, including the ridiculous amount of Carnage Tyrants I have to see. I was thinking cutting like 2 Glacial Fortress and 2 Irrigated Farmland and adding like 1 Plains, 1 Island 1 Field, 1 Wilds so I can search for the W sources, but I would have to test it. The way it is now is greedy, but 1 cycle land, and all my check lands come into play untapped, and it works pretty well. Extra cycle lands just become draw. Between them and Illumination, I can usually dig out of an iffy starting hand easily. This is somewhere I would want the 4th Scatter, as it's great with T5 Teferi, and keeping the board from getting out of control while digging.
@corranhorn01 - I also considered Pull From Tomorrow, another favorite of mine, but 1. I want to stay on Gearhulk, and that's a non-bo. and 2. It's not good in the control mirror. Post board, It's basically a high priced, instant speed Duress. It is the truth against midrange though...maybe sub an Illumination for one as a mid-late game bomb?
I still like Seal Away better than Craving because it a) takes care of some persistent threats like scroungers permanently and b) hits pretty much every threat in the format outside of Kiran. Craving's lifegain is inconsequential for me cause I rarely am worried about my life total. One of the most important lessons i've learned playing magic is that the only point of life that matters is your last one and very often I will win games with sub 5 life. Sure there might be times where the lifegain matters but I feel like lifegain is only important in formats where burn is a real thing. Outside of ballista, every deck but 1 wins by turning creatures sideways and attacking and we have answers for that. Also, Vraska's contempt is often more than enough lifegain to keep me afloat if need be. I don't find Brontodons to be as much of a problem as a turn 2 Steel-Leaf so I need the reassurance of seal away if I can't enable a bigger Push at the moment.
Push is a mandatory main deck card, a lot of the 1 and 2 drops in the format are super consequential and it fills in perfectly in our optimal curve. Turn 1 push turn 2 seal turn 3 disallow turn 4 settle turn 5 teferi/fumigate turn 6 torrential. Without the 1 drop removal option you've got a bunch of stuff fighting for the same mana slot and then it becomes clunky decisions you have to make instead of a smooth curve. Don't worry about always having revolt, almost every deck in the format has something important you need to push and things from your deck WILl get removed and that's where Push will shine. You can always activate Field of Ruin to get the revolt too, don't be afraid to be aggressive to keep the board clean (not to mention that a 1 mana answer to Heart of Kiran is super efficient considering they a) have to cast it and then b) tap another creature and all you have to do is have one black mana to deal with that). I also like Cast Down as a 1 of, as it hits a lot of stuff too. I might go to a 3 push 1 cast down split when I make my final esper build.
For the mana base you have to decide if you want more revolt triggers or not and then you can build from there. You need to make sure you have enough basics to turn on your checklands and also to not get field of ruin'd off an entire color or double of a color when you need it most. DO NOT get rid of Settle, it is the best card in the entire deck and even if you don't have it in your hand at the time people think that you do and play around it if you have 2WW open and that's a huge chunk of life you save just off fear of a blowout alone. You need to make sure you have double white and double black pretty consistently on turn 4 or you will struggle. I'm no math guy so I'm not sure what actual distribution you would need but the decks I posted earlier both play smoothly and i've only been screwed out of a color I needed maybe two games out of a hundred.
I'm not a huge fan of essence scatter because our deck is really optimized to take care of creatures once they hit the board, I don't need extra slots that are redundant to what my deck is already accomplishing. Maybe a 1 of or a max 2 of but honestly it's been a dead card in hand a lot more than I've really needed it. Outside of things that are devastating ETB like Gonti, I really don't have a problem with most creatures resolving and I'll disallow or syncopate the remainder.
Even without working with Gearhulk Pull is still a great card, since I'm more than willing to throw that card away at the end of turn to eat a counter so I can stick Teferi the next turn against the control counter. I've drawn up to 11 cards with it and anytime X > 3 it's pretty much a game ender on the spot if it resolves.
Thanks Yuz for the lists. I'll hopefully have my starting build ready this weekend and will be posting it for critiques :D.
And thanks to everyone for all the great discussion! It helps a lot.
How are people finding Syncopate? I liked it when I first started to play (in Theros RTR standard), but as time went on, I found I don't like it as much.
EDIT: Here's my list.
Notes:
I suck with manabases, but I think this one seems ok.
I still like Seal Away better than Craving because it a) takes care of some persistent threats like scroungers permanently and b) hits pretty much every threat in the format outside of Kiran. Craving's lifegain is inconsequential for me cause I rarely am worried about my life total. One of the most important lessons i've learned playing magic is that the only point of life that matters is your last one and very often I will win games with sub 5 life. Sure there might be times where the lifegain matters but I feel like lifegain is only important in formats where burn is a real thing. Outside of ballista, every deck but 1 wins by turning creatures sideways and attacking and we have answers for that. Also, Vraska's contempt is often more than enough lifegain to keep me afloat if need be. I don't find Brontodons to be as much of a problem as a turn 2 Steel-Leaf so I need the reassurance of seal away if I can't enable a bigger Push at the moment.
We'll have to agree to disagree here, Moment Of Craving has been great. You mention HOK, but what about tokens from History Of Benalia? They have vigilance. The life gain is very relevant, as mono red is still a thing (somehow...) and Vehicles is a tough match. There is also The W/B Knight deck, with the knight that sacs to give another one indestructible. Also, T2 Steel Leaf with a Push with no revolt is a blank. I don't accept being in those situations. This is a great bridge from the early game to the mid-late game where Settle comes online and shuts down their attacking options.
Push is a mandatory main deck card, a lot of the 1 and 2 drops in the format are super consequential and it fills in perfectly in our optimal curve. Turn 1 push turn 2 seal turn 3 disallow turn 4 settle turn 5 teferi/fumigate turn 6 torrential. Without the 1 drop removal option you've got a bunch of stuff fighting for the same mana slot and then it becomes clunky decisions you have to make instead of a smooth curve. Don't worry about always having revolt, almost every deck in the format has something important you need to push and things from your deck WILl get removed and that's where Push will shine. You can always activate Field of Ruin to get the revolt too, don't be afraid to be aggressive to keep the board clean (not to mention that a 1 mana answer to Heart of Kiran is super efficient considering they a) have to cast it and then b) tap another creature and all you have to do is have one black mana to deal with that). I also like Cast Down as a 1 of, as it hits a lot of stuff too. I might go to a 3 push 1 cast down split when I make my final esper build.
Of course, I disagree here, Cast Down has been insane. Even with 3 or 4 revolt enablers, it misses too much for my tastes.
For the mana base you have to decide if you want more revolt triggers or not and then you can build from there. You need to make sure you have enough basics to turn on your checklands and also to not get field of ruin'd off an entire color or double of a color when you need it most. DO NOT get rid of Settle, it is the best card in the entire deck and even if you don't have it in your hand at the time people think that you do and play around it if you have 2WW open and that's a huge chunk of life you save just off fear of a blowout alone. You need to make sure you have double white and double black pretty consistently on turn 4 or you will struggle. I'm no math guy so I'm not sure what actual distribution you would need but the decks I posted earlier both play smoothly and i've only been screwed out of a color I needed maybe two games out of a hundred.
Settle is too good to go, I agree there. I added 2 Fumigate main, and feel great about it. I don't think I can lose to any of the green decks anymore. This is another place Moment shines, as it buys time to find WW after turn 4 if needed.
I'm not a huge fan of essence scatter because our deck is really optimized to take care of creatures once they hit the board, I don't need extra slots that are redundant to what my deck is already accomplishing. Maybe a 1 of or a max 2 of but honestly it's been a dead card in hand a lot more than I've really needed it. Outside of things that are devastating ETB like Gonti, I really don't have a problem with most creatures resolving and I'll disallow or syncopate the remainder.
I wholeheartedly disagree here. Scatter is your protection against things like Shalai, that turn off Settle (best card in the deck according to you), and other nasty ETB triggers. Also things like Hazoret and The Scab God, that never have to attack to beat you. It is also another cheap bridge to the mid-late game while you get your mana together. On the play, this is your best T2 play, as HOK and Gideon are the only non-creature threats that matter at all before T4.
Even without working with Gearhulk Pull is still a great card, since I'm more than willing to throw that card away at the end of turn to eat a counter so I can stick Teferi the next turn against the control counter. I've drawn up to 11 cards with it and anytime X > 3 it's pretty much a game ender on the spot if it resolves.
I agree. I'm looking to fit at least one in. I think I'll try one in place of a Hieroglyphic Illumination tonight as a test. It's ridiculous against anything but control.
Thanks Yuz for the lists. I'll hopefully have my starting build ready this weekend and will be posting it for critiques :D.
And thanks to everyone for all the great discussion! It helps a lot.
How are people finding Syncopate? I liked it when I first started to play (in Theros RTR standard), but as time went on, I found I don't like it as much.
I like it in general, but I'm waiting until rotation to possibly run it. Disallow does too much, and Essence Scatter is too efficient.
I really love Essence Scatter for the reasons I stated above, but if you only run 4, I'd choose Disallow.
Invoke against Green and Vehicles, Forsake against Gift. What do you face more, and what do you feel you need the help for more? Go from there. I went to 3 Invoke since Vehicles is tough for my build.
Binding or Cast out: What permanents do you need help against? Also, how much green/Brontodon in your meta? Are you prepared to do the dance against the UW decks? I like not having to worry about it, but that's me. Same with Seal Away.
As far as your SB, I feel it should be 4/3 Duress/Negate instead of the other way around, as getting the T3 Gideon or History out of the opponents' hand can be HUGE. Also, pure UW has Azcanta advantage (more Field Of Ruin), and Arch Of Orazca, and runs more counters, so Duress is big game. You will have an easier time dismantling their hand then fighting the straight up counter war.
As I said earlier, I went to 2 Fumigate MD, and it went great. I like it MD. A good player whose opinion I trust on mono green told me after I beat him that green can't beat both because it's impossible to play around both and be efficient.
Thanks NSC. There's a good amount to think about in there. The cast out/binding would be as a md answer to aritfacts/enchants.
I just found this from Gab Nassif from May 16th. Nice 2hr league of him playing Esper, with a really different build from what we are running here. (1 settle, 3 censors, 2 cast out, that sort of thing). Granted he only played one 'meta deck', but it was still a good watch. https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/esper-control-standard-channel-nassif/
EDIT: I went through my folder today looking at possible cards and saw profane procession. If the format goes more midrange, could it be looked at?
Thanks NSC. There's a good amount to think about in there. The cast out/binding would be as a md answer to aritfacts/enchants.
I just found this from Gab Nassif from May 16th. Nice 2hr league of him playing Esper, with a really different build from what we are running here. (1 settle, 3 censors, 2 cast out, that sort of thing). Granted he only played one 'meta deck', but it was still a good watch. https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/esper-control-standard-channel-nassif/
EDIT: I went through my folder today looking at possible cards and saw profane procession. If the format goes more midrange, could it be looked at?
Checking this out now. Interesting.
I've considered Procession before. Solid removal, that becomes a win con, that is searchable with Azcanta. Need to get around to testing it.
Here's where I'm at with my build currently. I've been talking with a few players that I trust and had a limited amount of testing (due to work and standard being a small thing where I'm currently living).
Thoughts:
I think my manabase needs work, but unsure how to fix it.
Seal Away or Cast Out? Everyone I've talked to say one or the other in about a 50:50 ratio. I'm currently leaning on Cast Out due to it's ability to hit everything. But then is my 4 drop spot too big?..
2 SB spots. I'm currently going with 4th Duress and 1 Gonti, but am also tossing up with 2 Lyra.
2:2 or 3:1 with Teferi:Scarab? Again people are 50:50. The person I trust most said there's no real point only running 1 Scarab in his mind, so...
I've liked Censor so far. It's nuts vs curve outs, which is what seems to be happening in a lot of the games I've played recently.
Here's where I'm at with my build currently. I've been talking with a few players that I trust and had a limited amount of testing (due to work and standard being a small thing where I'm currently living).
Thoughts:
I think my manabase needs work, but unsure how to fix it.
Seal Away or Cast Out? Everyone I've talked to say one or the other in about a 50:50 ratio. I'm currently leaning on Cast Out due to it's ability to hit everything. But then is my 4 drop spot too big?..
2 SB spots. I'm currently going with 4th Duress and 1 Gonti, but am also tossing up with 2 Lyra.
2:2 or 3:1 with Teferi:Scarab? Again people are 50:50. The person I trust most said there's no real point only running 1 Scarab in his mind, so...
I've liked Censor so far. It's nuts vs curve outs, which is what seems to be happening in a lot of the games I've played recently.
1. Not sure. I'm running the mana base from this deck posted earlier, with good results: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1095607#paper . Went 3-3 at a PPTQ Saturday, every game loss besides one was mana screw, so I'm considering a 27th land. No color problems, but my only MD white cards are Settle, Fumigate and Teferi.
2. I play neither, but if forced to choose, I'd take Cast Out. Versatility, and cycling is a plus.
3. All of the options sound good. I wasn't a Lyra believer at first, but it's very good. No answer, lose the game. Races extremely well.
4. I'm on 3/2 right now. I tried one God, but it was too hard to find in a timely fashion, as well as not having the "ressurrect God to save God" trick.
5. I don't like Censor right now. Llanowar Elves makes it bad fast. I feel like it's too much air right now.
I basically am running Gabs manabase -1 Farmland. It's been alright so far, just seems a bit weird on paper haha. I'll try it out, maybe 27 is the way to go.
Yea, that's where I'm going think. Thanks for reinforcing my thinking.
Yea, I still need to get 1 or 2 Teferi so the Lyra may have to wait a little.
Yup. Unsure about the 3rd Teferi. That might be something to test. Maybe over that Cast Out.
I don't have as much green in my meta as you do, so that may be why I'm liking it haha. I also run the pushes to deal with the elves. If that changes, it'll probs be 2 Seal Away/Cast Down, 3rd Scatter and either a Cast Out or 3rd Teferi.
Here's where I'm at with my build currently. I've been talking with a few players that I trust and had a limited amount of testing (due to work and standard being a small thing where I'm currently living).
Thoughts:
I think my manabase needs work, but unsure how to fix it.
Seal Away or Cast Out? Everyone I've talked to say one or the other in about a 50:50 ratio. I'm currently leaning on Cast Out due to it's ability to hit everything. But then is my 4 drop spot too big?..
2 SB spots. I'm currently going with 4th Duress and 1 Gonti, but am also tossing up with 2 Lyra.
2:2 or 3:1 with Teferi:Scarab? Again people are 50:50. The person I trust most said there's no real point only running 1 Scarab in his mind, so...
I've liked Censor so far. It's nuts vs curve outs, which is what seems to be happening in a lot of the games I've played recently.
1) My suggestion: two more Islands and Irrigated Farmlands, go down a Plains, Isolated Chapel and Drowned Catacomb. having double black is the least important color to be able to get, but having double white is SUPER important. You only need 1 basic plains since your islands and tap-lands turn on chapel anyway.
2) I removed Cast out from my list, other than being a really nice cycle option it fights with a bunch of 4 mana options and also is less efficient than just outright countering or removing something all together. It can be a good sideboard 1 of but otherwise it's been pretty meh. I've also gone down to 3 seal away 1 cast down as my non fatal push/vraska's removal - there is so many vehicles/benalia running around that you don't want it to be a dead card in g1
3) I'm not a fan of Lyra, since it requires us to tap down and is pretty easily removable by pretty much every deck, I love Gonti though because he does something whether he leaves the battlefield or not and deathtouch is also a nice added bonus. I'd probably cut a Vraska's in the SB you don't need the whole grip of 4. I'd go with Doomfall for persistent threats/more discard instead. I've been experimenting with Regal Caracal as it achieves kind of the same thing as Lyra on an open board but goes wide enough to avoid Settle in the mirror/control. I might just go 2 Gonti but i'll let you know how the 1 Gonti 1 Caracal testing goes.
4) I run 3 Teferi and 2 Scarab currently and I'm probably going to go 3:1 instead. Scarab God is an amazing card but I run a full playset of syncopate, and that along with almost all of my removal exiles means that I have to disallow a creature spell if I want to Scarab God it and that just feels bad since Disallow is much more important and flexible than that. Did you mean the split of Gearhulk/Scarab God though, cause you only run 2 Teferi (I'd run 3) but you need at least 3 gearhulks as it is one of our only win conditions.
5) Censor seems pretty meh in the face of syncopate, in the fact that Censor doesn't scale well where syncopate scales exponentially. Censor isn't a dead card because it cycles but once the cat is out of the bag and they know you have it they can much more easily play around it. I would definitely run 4 Disallow though it's by a large margin the best counter in the entire format and i've won games in a variety of ways off denying triggers (the most recent one being fumigating the board and then disallowing the Scarab God trigger).
Might I suggest Angel of Sanctions for one sideboard slot? I saw it do a lot of work at a PPTQ this past weekend in a UW control deck. The idea behind it is so simple, it literally made me wonder why I didn't think of it.
Here's where I'm at with my build currently. I've been talking with a few players that I trust and had a limited amount of testing (due to work and standard being a small thing where I'm currently living).
Thoughts:
I think my manabase needs work, but unsure how to fix it.
Seal Away or Cast Out? Everyone I've talked to say one or the other in about a 50:50 ratio. I'm currently leaning on Cast Out due to it's ability to hit everything. But then is my 4 drop spot too big?..
2 SB spots. I'm currently going with 4th Duress and 1 Gonti, but am also tossing up with 2 Lyra.
2:2 or 3:1 with Teferi:Scarab? Again people are 50:50. The person I trust most said there's no real point only running 1 Scarab in his mind, so...
I've liked Censor so far. It's nuts vs curve outs, which is what seems to be happening in a lot of the games I've played recently.
1) My suggestion: two more Islands and Irrigated Farmlands, go down a Plains, Isolated Chapel and Drowned Catacomb. having double black is the least important color to be able to get, but having double white is SUPER important. You only need 1 basic plains since your islands and tap-lands turn on chapel anyway.
2) I removed Cast out from my list, other than being a really nice cycle option it fights with a bunch of 4 mana options and also is less efficient than just outright countering or removing something all together. It can be a good sideboard 1 of but otherwise it's been pretty meh. I've also gone down to 3 seal away 1 cast down as my non fatal push/vraska's removal - there is so many vehicles/benalia running around that you don't want it to be a dead card in g1
3) I'm not a fan of Lyra, since it requires us to tap down and is pretty easily removable by pretty much every deck, I love Gonti though because he does something whether he leaves the battlefield or not and deathtouch is also a nice added bonus. I'd probably cut a Vraska's in the SB you don't need the whole grip of 4. I'd go with Doomfall for persistent threats/more discard instead. I've been experimenting with Regal Caracal as it achieves kind of the same thing as Lyra on an open board but goes wide enough to avoid Settle in the mirror/control. I might just go 2 Gonti but i'll let you know how the 1 Gonti 1 Caracal testing goes.
4) I run 3 Teferi and 2 Scarab currently and I'm probably going to go 3:1 instead. Scarab God is an amazing card but I run a full playset of syncopate, and that along with almost all of my removal exiles means that I have to disallow a creature spell if I want to Scarab God it and that just feels bad since Disallow is much more important and flexible than that. Did you mean the split of Gearhulk/Scarab God though, cause you only run 2 Teferi (I'd run 3) but you need at least 3 gearhulks as it is one of our only win conditions.
5) Censor seems pretty meh in the face of syncopate, in the fact that Censor doesn't scale well where syncopate scales exponentially. Censor isn't a dead card because it cycles but once the cat is out of the bag and they know you have it they can much more easily play around it. I would definitely run 4 Disallow though it's by a large margin the best counter in the entire format and i've won games in a variety of ways off denying triggers (the most recent one being fumigating the board and then disallowing the Scarab God trigger).
Thanks Yuz.
1. I'll definitely give that a shot!
2. I can see where you're coming from. I'll give the 4th Disallow a test in that spot.
3. I can try it, it just feels weird not running a full set in the 75. Does that make sense (re: cutting sb contempt)? Also, I get what you're saying about Lyra, but it is a must kill threat. I'm currently with Gonti and 4th Duress in that spot. I personally don't like Caracal as a 1 of.
4. I do mean Teferi:Scarab. Already running 3 Hulks. I would like to fit a 3rd Tef in, but gotta find room.
5. That is true, but currently, hardly anyone is running Censor. I could try -3 Censor +1 Tef +2 Synco. See how that goes. I'm jst worried I'm a little low of counter/removal early on.
@chaos, you definitely can. But if everyone is prepared for Lyra, wouldn't it just eat removal? I'll put it into my consideration pile :).
2. I can see where you're coming from. I'll give the 4th Disallow a test in that spot.
3. I can try it, it just feels weird not running a full set in the 75. Does that make sense (re: cutting sb contempt)? Also, I get what you're saying about Lyra, but it is a must kill threat. I'm currently with Gonti and 4th Duress in that spot. I personally don't like Caracal as a 1 of.
4. I do mean Teferi:Scarab. Already running 3 Hulks. I would like to fit a 3rd Tef in, but gotta find room.
5. That is true, but currently, hardly anyone is running Censor. I could try -3 Censor +1 Tef +2 Synco. See how that goes. I'm jst worried I'm a little low of counter/removal early on.
@chaos, you definitely can. But if everyone is prepared for Lyra, wouldn't it just eat removal? I'll put it into my consideration pile :).
I can't endorse not running 4 Contempt, I feel it's the main reason to run black besides The Scarab God.
I would also fill out the Disallows before adding any Syncopates.
I had the same doubts about Lyra, but it has been great. Several decks have to have the removal (as well as resolve it) or, they just lose. Mono green, mono red, W/B, Vehicles. Also, it stomps down planeswalkers very quickly, as well as profitably. Even a 4/4 reanimated Lyra from the Scarab God beats about 85% of the creatures you'll encounter in this metagame.
Hey all just ran UB control through and league and went 3-2. Would've been 4-1 but I ran out of time against UW control. G1 against UW I exile every win condition they had and basically had it wrapped up but the timer on MTGO is a cruel mistress If this were a paper event I would've decked them.
I tried to cater my MD and SB to have game against UW G1, and still have a well rounded gameplan against everything else.
Wins:
2-0 Vs GB Snek (EASY mode)
2-1 Vs RB Vehicles
2-1 Vs UB Midrange
Loss to
UB Mirror
My deck is not prepped for the mirror so I lost handily here.
Win but loss due to timer (grr, I played the heck out of this match)
UW Control, literally exiled every Planeswalker they had in the Main. Opponent was kind and admitted he had no way to win. Win in my heart
Sb cards that mattered: Knight of Malice put a wrench in RB's aggro plan (saved me at least 6pts) but at the same time it's not the best nor most impactful creature; but I had for this card against UW after SB. My SB would've been:
In: All of it, all 15 cards
Out: -1 Gearhulk, -4 Push, -2 Moment of Craving, -2 Essence Scatter, -3 Syncopate (I think it's better to just have Negate after SB), -2 Commit // Memory, -1 Hieroglyphic.
This was the plan, never got to execute it because see above lol
My deck still needs work, but I think UB has the tools, and Scarab God is still insane.
2. I can see where you're coming from. I'll give the 4th Disallow a test in that spot.
3. I can try it, it just feels weird not running a full set in the 75. Does that make sense (re: cutting sb contempt)? Also, I get what you're saying about Lyra, but it is a must kill threat. I'm currently with Gonti and 4th Duress in that spot. I personally don't like Caracal as a 1 of.
4. I do mean Teferi:Scarab. Already running 3 Hulks. I would like to fit a 3rd Tef in, but gotta find room.
5. That is true, but currently, hardly anyone is running Censor. I could try -3 Censor +1 Tef +2 Synco. See how that goes. I'm jst worried I'm a little low of counter/removal early on.
@chaos, you definitely can. But if everyone is prepared for Lyra, wouldn't it just eat removal? I'll put it into my consideration pile :).
I can't endorse not running 4 Contempt, I feel it's the main reason to run black besides The Scarab God.
I would also fill out the Disallows before adding any Syncopates.
I had the same doubts about Lyra, but it has been great. Several decks have to have the removal (as well as resolve it) or, they just lose. Mono green, mono red, W/B, Vehicles. Also, it stomps down planeswalkers very quickly, as well as profitably. Even a 4/4 reanimated Lyra from the Scarab God beats about 85% of the creatures you'll encounter in this metagame.
Contempt is a good card but it is often sitting in my hand not being used even only running 2 copies. The creatures either 1) get dealt with through seal away/settle/push or outright countered and the only time I HAVE to use vraska's or lose is against Teferi or Chandra, both of which can just be countered. I do agree that Vraska's gives us some reach but I feel like more than 3 is just redundant unless your meta is super aggressive. To each their own though.
I'm currently through a league and i'll give Lyra a chance in the next league I run, right now i'm running double Gonti, and am 3-1 thusfar. Gonti is just so good, and has turned the tide of the game every time I play him.
Contempt is a good card but it is often sitting in my hand not being used even only running 2 copies. The creatures either 1) get dealt with through seal away/settle/push or outright countered and the only time I HAVE to use vraska's or lose is against Teferi or Chandra, both of which can just be countered. I do agree that Vraska's gives us some reach but I feel like more than 3 is just redundant unless your meta is super aggressive. To each their own though.
I'm currently through a league and i'll give Lyra a chance in the next league I run, right now i'm running double Gonti, and am 3-1 thusfar. Gonti is just so good, and has turned the tide of the game every time I play him.
I see your point, but I look at it as the "emergency reset button". It keeps them honest, and cleans up almost all of the accidental things that resolve, as well as life gain. Every time I cut some, it ends up back in. It also lets you save counters by removing planeswalkers and things like gods that don't get easily removed by anything else.
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Irrigated Farmland
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Field of Ruin
Non-land Permanents (10)
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Cast Out
1 The Scarab God
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Fatal Push
1 Essence Scatter
4 Seal Away
1 Syncopate
3 Disallow
1 Cancel
1 Doomfall
1 Commit // Memory
2 Vraska's Contempt
3 Settle the Wreckage
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Fumigate
3 Duress
1 Profane Procession
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
2 Negate
1 Contraband Kingpin
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 Arguel's Bloodfast
1 Forsake the Worldly
2 Fatal Push
2 Authority of the Consuls
My local store had sold out of all the control staples a week previous, so I meta-gamed a little to include more disruption mainboard and less Fatal Push. Additionally I was not able to assemble all of my cards in time for the event so some of the 75 was incomplete, including fewer Lyra Dawnbringer, and substitutions for the forth Disallow and Settle the Wreckage.
I was familiar with this player having tested with him, but he brought control instead of aggro like he tested with before. Control mirrors are my favourite games and I'm pretty experienced with them, so I often feel favoured. Game 1 was pretty back and forth casting draw spells that neither player countered, discarding Settle the Wreckage and Fumigate to hand size and keeping Teferi, Hero of Dominaria off the board. Eventually he casts Approach of the Second Sun and tapped out, allowing me to resolve Teferi and take over the game with card and mana advantage and, in time, his ultimate. After cutting his blue sources off we went to game 2.
Out
In
Game 2 I keep two lands with some cycling cards, but stumble on mana while he plays land each turn and resolves Teferi. Card is fairly hard to beat if it sticks since post-board Negate is there to protect it at their end step. He then plays Nezahal, Primal Tide on T7 and after dealing with my slower T9 blue dinosaur I concede.
Game 3 I disrupt him early with discard and force through a Teferi. I wait until there is no threat of Commit // Memory, which I'm not even sure he registered, and play Nezahal. He fights it with removal backed with counters, causing me to counter back and discard 6 cards. However Teferi activations and Nezahal triggers drew enough for me to win that fight and end the game in swift order. I was expecting Arguel's Bloodfast to score me a huge advantage but it never showed up. 1-0.
I also knew this player as he was a spike that played in my home town, and he had traveled to play at my new locale. I knew I had to play tight to win. Game 1 was a drawn out match in which I almost stabilized, however Heart of Kiran and History of Benalia were difficult for me to deal with even as I got rid of most of the other threats. I was going to lean on Settle the Wreckage as an out while I spent my removal 1-for-1 but it never came.
Out
In
In retrospect, I feel as if I should have sided in Duress and boarded out some number of Seal Away. I was not ready for the match though, as he transformed into a much more midrange/control deck than I expected with many planeswalkers.
Game 2 I feel like I keep a reasonable hand with some creature removal and counters. T2 I Syncopate a Scrapheap Scrounger and follow T3 Negate for History of Benalia. T4 however Karn, Scion of Urza lands with no response from my side. He takes over the game slowly and I lose to an incredible amount of
cardKarn advantage. After Liliana, Death's Majesty flips a Lyra into the graveyard and he plays two vehicles in one turn I'm toast. My mistake here is that I should have saved my Syncopate as I had other ways to deal with the threat in my hand and the rest of the game my life total was quite high until I definitively lost. 1-1.Another local player I knew, and we had sat beside each other in the last round so we knew what we were in store for. Game 1 lasts far too long and was in his favour for a while, with active Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, until I forced his counterspells with Torrential Gearhulk, slip in a Search for Azcanta and transform after clearing a Field of Ruin he had tapped for mana and have a Teferi of my own. He runs of out permission and I get to do what I want with The Scarab God accessing both graveyards for Gearhulks. Strangely enough I had seen a Glimmer of Genius in his hand early in the game with a Doomfall which he stubbornly held on to when I had mana up. I never usually counter my opponent's draw spells in a control mirror unless it draws 4 cards or more, but I suppose it was to my benefit.
Out
In
I experiment here by going down all my spot removal and bringing an extra threat in Lyra.
Game 2 is a pretty brutal spanking, as I struggle to find my third and forth land after cycling 4 cards and getting my Azcanta exiled. I Duress him a couple times a bit jokingly, but he runs well even after discard. He resolves Teferi and a Gearhulk and I concede as we have 15 minutes left in the round.
Game 3 we try to play as quick as possible, but he stumbles on one land drop behind remaining at 5 lands while on my 7 lands I play Nezahal. He plays Gideon of the Trials and Sorcerous Spyglass to check it for multiple turns until I play Teferi. My mistake here was leaving Gideon on the battlefield and instead drawing cards. Time is called and I Gearhulk on his end step to draw more cards, thinking I could get an answer for Gideon. I do in Vraska's Contempt, but at Turn 5 I can only get him down to 1 life. He graciously concedes, as I have board advantage. 2-1.
Finally a player I don't know personally, but I had seen him dismantle people's slower draws as he always had time to get up and go for a smoke. He leads with Siren Stormtamer after winning the die roll, and then proceeds to chuck a few burn spells and small creatures at me while I stare at my removal spells wondering what went wrong. I do remove some of his creatures, but the Siren keeps the important ones alive and I receive one too many Wizard's Lightning to the dome with no permission or sweepers.
Out
In
My thoughts here are to take out the slower cards and put in life gain with faster interaction. Lyra is also a house against red decks in theory. Unfortunately I never saw her. I should have also considered Duress as an option, since his list seemed burn heavy and I could grab his post-board permission.
Game 2 I mulligan so that I can find Authority of the Consuls, which I do get in my hand of 6. I play a tapped land T1 hoping he has no play, which is the case. An ideal start and I feel as though I can win. It gains me at least 8 life while protecting me from haste creatures. I test if he has counterspells on T4 with a draw spell to which he responds with Opt. I put him on not having it, but still play around Spell Pierce and cast Teferi T5 to bait. It actually resolves and I bounce a Ghitu Lavarunner who had a counter on it from Metallic Mimic, fearing the extra damage and assuming he'd ignore my planeswalker. He targets it with Shock end of turn and attacks me down. Settle the Wreckage on T6 gets 3 creatures. He responds with 9 points of burn while his wizards are still on the field. We both don't have much after that, with me going down to 1 life after removing his follow up creature.
This is the point where I mess up. He plays Riddleform with a card in hand, passes. I also draw, land, pass. I have a Vraska's Contempt in hand, so I feel comfortable. He draws and slams Siren Stormtamer and I respond with cycling Hieroglyphic Illumination to find an answer, as I am very dead to that creature. I find Seal Away, let the creature resolve since it comes in tapped, and snap it off. I then allow him to cast Warlord's Fury so he can trigger the Riddleform, stop him after the trigger resolves but before his spell and go to tap mana for Contempt. I look down, realizing I have only 1 black source, having tapped my other one in for Seal Away. I feel terrible, but try not to look concerned as I allow him to proceed with his turn. He attacks me and I die. Very disappointed with myself, as I might have stabilized from there with Contempt putting me at 4 life to still fade at least one more burn spell. I also missed an Authority trigger earlier in the game to gain 1 life, but it was irrelevant at the end. Salt. 2-2.
Out
In
Essentially the control board, complete with Nezahal since I will still draw cards from his non-creature spells and blank removal. More Seal Away stay in because it gets Gideon, but Scarab God comes out because he was essentially creatureless.
Overall I feel the deck had legs and was fun to play with many options to answer most opponent's game plans, but my poor play and inexperience with the newer format led to losses that could have been prevented, such as mis-tapping my mana in Round 4.
The 75 was not optimal, and I think knowing where the deck's weaknesses lie I would change the sideboard to accommodate. I did not board in Profane Procession in a single game and will likely find room for another Forsake the Worldly to combat WB Vehicles. Fatal Push will go back in the mainboard and perhaps I will have a Negate instead of an Essence Scatter.
More answers to things such as Karn, Scion of Urza, are likely necessary since I kept losing to it. I am unsure if putting Karn in the deck is the way forward, as T4 is this deck's catch up turn with Settle the Wreckage, Vraska's Contempt, and Hieroglyphic Illumination. A midrange or superfriends build that can protect the walkers more reliably would probably fit better.
4 Fetid Pools
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Field Of Ruin
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
Spells 29
3 Essence Scatter
4 Disallow
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
3 Search For Azcanta
3 Cast Down
3 Moment Of Craving
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria
3 Settle The Wreckage
3 Duress
3 Negate
2 Forsake The Worldly
4 Authority Of The Conculs
2 Sunscourge Champion
1 Karn, Scion Of Urza
Deck Design:
TBH, this is version 1.1 of the deck. I had a bad arm injury, so I spent the past 3 weeks goldfishing, and played 2 FNMs (4-0, 3-1). No real testing, as I was one-armed.
Mana Base - Greed, and lack of testing. Was 2 Field, but made it a 2nd Swamp. I miss having 3-4 Field , but it doesn't seem too bad. The mana has only failed me once, as you'll see below.
Cast Down, No Fatal Push - As I said in earlier discussions, I don't want to lose to Steel Leaf, and there's not many Kari Zevs around. I've still beaten mono Red, so I don't regret it. Cast Down is amazing.
SB Karn - I play an all foil deck, I got the foil Karn at the FNM before the SCG event, and hadn't tested it. I wasn't sure, but it seemed solid. I had Approach Of The Second Sun in the board, and chucked it for Karn. Version 1.0 strat was to side in Approach, and go all defense and draw against decks with no way to stop it. Still unsure how I feel about it. I rate Teferi a 10, Karn feels like a 7 so far.
Sunscourge Champion: Was unsure about Lyra, as I expected Puncturing Blow and Unlicensed Disintegration and didn't want to spend $100 on two foils untested. (I won a box over two FNMs, and it was trash, so I was operating on cash, as I opened only 2 +10 dollar cards, History and Mox, and trash foils... )
I beat GW Angel Midrange (grindy, but I was never in too much trouble. Scarab Godding his Shalai was just WRONG), Mono Red (one sided), and Mono Green (one-sided). Lost to:
- Mono Green (No Settle Game 3 despite drawing several extra cards, vs. several cheap 3+ power creatures, got chipped away)
- U/W Control (He won the die roll, he stuck his 1 Gideon Of The Trials on T3 and protected it . Game 2, I draw only 1 Essence Scatter as countermagic until turn T13 or so, despite T2 Search For Azcanta, and several cycles/draws. No Duress either. I land Karn, but he whiffs, then he bounces it. He sticks Teferi, draws incredibly, and I never resolve another spell for the rest of the game. He came in 10th.
- Mono Red God-Pharoah's Gift (Game 2, he goes off T4, I can't kill enough, no Disallow. Game 3, I have double Settle in hand, and don't get the second W source. He came in 11th.
This deck is really powerful, I feel like I just need to refine the deck to the new metagame. My 3 wins, and all my FNM wins were pretty easy and mostly one-sided. Rumors of Scarab God's demise were greatly exaggerated. It still flat out wins games. I love Settle, but I would play white just for Teferi. It's easily my new favorite card, and is busted. It's really absurd, especially with the deck being all instants, and with high powered 2s and 3s.
Changes I've made so far:
MD:
-1 Search
+1 Karn
SB
-1 Karn
-2 Sunscourge Champion
+2 Lyra Dawnbringer (All of my aggro opponents asked why I didn't have it, but only 1 or 2 had any real plan for it. Oh well, got two for 90, so that's that.) Also, I can bring it back with Scarab God.
+1 Doomfall - Good vs. midrange and control. Wanted another Negate or Duress, but I feel this is a good middle ground. Still unsure about this slot. Might just end up a 4th Settle, to avoid the "no Settle" crap against green decks, which was my one loss at FNM over the past 2 weeks. I hate punk-a$$ Carnage Tyrant.
When you brought in Karn did you have trouble protecting him? Or was the high loyalty enough? Also why Moment of Craving instead of Seal Away? Seems decent against the likes of Steel Leaf Champion and other creatures above 2 toughness. Against Mono-Green was Llanowar Elves a concern without Fatal Push?
I am unsure myself, but when the presiding judge explained it the structure made sense. Something to do with brackets being different between 9-12 players and 13-16 players.
I've only brought in Karn a few times, but he wasn't hard to protect due to the high loyalty. I never fought over him for like, Cast Out vs. Approach. That was a strategic decision, as I already got value out of him, and had nothing but lands stranded. BTW, one of my LGSs got a foil Karn, so I picked it up yesterday, going to try 2 MD. I think that will be better, and mitigate good cards being stranded.
I'm playing Moment Of Craving to keep the "life-gain removal" advantage that I had with UB. It kills almost every T1 and T2 (and several T3) creature, and is still great against aggro. Also, no weakness to enchantment removal (no enchantment removal is 100% intentional, I like things dead for good) or vigilance. The minus toughness effect is useful sometimes. I have double Momented Hazoret several times, for instance. Another thing I don't like about Seal Away, it and Settle look REALLY bad against Scarab God plus anything draining you every turn, while fixing my draws to protect it. Been doing that already.
Stuff like Steel Leaf is why I insist on Cast Down. I'm thinking of going back to 4. I love it more the more I play it.
Llanowar Elves never really concerned me. I may have taken a couple chip hits from them until I Settled, or had free mana and cards to kill them. Cast Down let me kill everything they ramped to, which was more important. I don't miss Fatal Push at all, though I concede I haven't played any Vehicles yet, and Heart Of Kiran may be problematic (Seal Away doesn't work here, either though...Moment on the enabler does buy back 2 of the 4 life. I can double Moment in a pinch). On the play, I often "wasted" a Moment on them, as it was a "free" 2 life and a virtual land destruction spell. Worked out great, actually.
I like the look of that list, as a base. Need to get my lands together for esper.
A few thoughts:
1. Fumigate with it over the 4th settle? One more mana, but it's 'unconditional'.
2. With the expected rise in uw, is Blood Fast worth looking at in the board?
3. Commit/memory? As a one of. Seeing Hulk can instant speed it and it with teferi...
4. I get why the wilds is there, but could it be a 2nd ruin?
@all
On a different note, Shaheen put up an interesting article about uw today.
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37101_The-Flaws-Of-UW-Control.html
EDIT: to fix an autocorrect
I'm not a huge fan of Karn in the Esper Control shell, we have way more important plays on turn 4 and he doesn't effect the board without being able to - on his loyalty.
I also agree on Seal Away over Craving, especially if your concern is enchantment removal. Only G/B runs dedicated MD enchantment removal and seal away deals with almost every threat in the format. I'd rather play fatal push, as it can grab Elves/Couriers on turn 1. I like keeping two mana up for seal away or syncopate and then the curve goes perfectly into disallow/settle or glimpse, teferi/scarab god and then gearhulk.
You havn't played any vehicles yet but after it's huge showing at the last event you are going to need a lot of MD ways of dealing with heart, so give fatal push another consideration.
I think NSC's landbase needs some work, especially with the ruin and wild's numbers.
To answer your questions
1) Fumigate has become a SB card, because without tokens being around and settle taking care of most threats it's just not killing a lot of creatures most board states
2) Blood Fast is an auto add in the sideboard, it's amazing against opposing control decks
3) Commit/Memory has fallen out of my 75 but I might bring it back as a 1 of, it just has so much range and is an amazing card
4) I'd run more ruins personally and if you want to enable bigger fatal pushes i'd run more wilds too. There needs to be more basics in the deck too, otherwise you are going to have more games where you are going to have turn 1 and two taplands and that is no good.
Thabks for the answers. I agree with you on the manabase.
Do you have an esper list built that you'd be willing to post?
I haven't developed my own yet, but it would be similar to NSC's but running a commit and probably pushes and seal aways. I prefer glimmer to heiro, but that's probably too greedy.
Thoughts on Pull?
1. I'm considering Fumigate due to requiring WW a turn later, as well as Shalai being good against Settle (lost an otherwise unlosable game due to this). I wanted to stay all instants, but Fumigate may be worth it.
2. I'm on 4 Duress, 3 Negate now. Was considering ABF, but unsure if I want less Duress, as it's great for catching Gideons and Karns before they can drop them. Probably about 75% it will find it's way in there.
3. I love Commit, just didn't have room. It's always in the back of my mind also. Memory could be good with my large amount of exile effects.
4. It was originally. I really want more Fields, but vs. mono red or green, there were games where there were no non-basic lands to blow up, which prevented me from mana fixing. The Wilds was a concession to that.
I agree, I'm liking Karn less and less the more I play it. Thinking they will become a 3rd Teferi (Control MVP) and something else. Commit, Gearhulk, 4th Settle, 4th Essence Scatter, Fumigate, something.
Not doing Seal Away, there are a LOT of Brontodons in my local meta. Mono green, GB Snake, Ramp. It also doesn't help the Heart Of Kiran issue. The life gain of Craving it still good, too. Mono red GPG, Vehicles, W/B Knights, all aggro decks I've faced lately where Moment shined.
I am considering Push in the SB for Vehicles, I played against it and lost, due to not drawing Settle or Vraska's Contempt, the only answers for HOK main. I switched from Forsake to Invoke The Divine SB for Vehicles, but didn't draw any That's variance, but I feel I need to shore that match up some. The reason I don't like Push is I only have 2 Revolt outlets, and as I said earlier, my meta has a good amount of Steel Leafs. Cast Down has still been excellent otherwise. I am also thinking Invoke #3, as the life gain is great there also. Just have to draw them...
As far as the manabase, I'm open to suggestions. I admit that's not my strong suit. I was considering dumping Settle, so I could drop W sources, and be more like old UB with just Teferi, and the SB cards, but Settle solves SO MANY issues right now, including the ridiculous amount of Carnage Tyrants I have to see. I was thinking cutting like 2 Glacial Fortress and 2 Irrigated Farmland and adding like 1 Plains, 1 Island 1 Field, 1 Wilds so I can search for the W sources, but I would have to test it. The way it is now is greedy, but 1 cycle land, and all my check lands come into play untapped, and it works pretty well. Extra cycle lands just become draw. Between them and Illumination, I can usually dig out of an iffy starting hand easily. This is somewhere I would want the 4th Scatter, as it's great with T5 Teferi, and keeping the board from getting out of control while digging.
@corranhorn01 - I also considered Pull From Tomorrow, another favorite of mine, but 1. I want to stay on Gearhulk, and that's a non-bo. and 2. It's not good in the control mirror. Post board, It's basically a high priced, instant speed Duress. It is the truth against midrange though...maybe sub an Illumination for one as a mid-late game bomb?
Basically i've been running https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1088564#paper or https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1082880#paper
I still like Seal Away better than Craving because it a) takes care of some persistent threats like scroungers permanently and b) hits pretty much every threat in the format outside of Kiran. Craving's lifegain is inconsequential for me cause I rarely am worried about my life total. One of the most important lessons i've learned playing magic is that the only point of life that matters is your last one and very often I will win games with sub 5 life. Sure there might be times where the lifegain matters but I feel like lifegain is only important in formats where burn is a real thing. Outside of ballista, every deck but 1 wins by turning creatures sideways and attacking and we have answers for that. Also, Vraska's contempt is often more than enough lifegain to keep me afloat if need be. I don't find Brontodons to be as much of a problem as a turn 2 Steel-Leaf so I need the reassurance of seal away if I can't enable a bigger Push at the moment.
Push is a mandatory main deck card, a lot of the 1 and 2 drops in the format are super consequential and it fills in perfectly in our optimal curve. Turn 1 push turn 2 seal turn 3 disallow turn 4 settle turn 5 teferi/fumigate turn 6 torrential. Without the 1 drop removal option you've got a bunch of stuff fighting for the same mana slot and then it becomes clunky decisions you have to make instead of a smooth curve. Don't worry about always having revolt, almost every deck in the format has something important you need to push and things from your deck WILl get removed and that's where Push will shine. You can always activate Field of Ruin to get the revolt too, don't be afraid to be aggressive to keep the board clean (not to mention that a 1 mana answer to Heart of Kiran is super efficient considering they a) have to cast it and then b) tap another creature and all you have to do is have one black mana to deal with that). I also like Cast Down as a 1 of, as it hits a lot of stuff too. I might go to a 3 push 1 cast down split when I make my final esper build.
For the mana base you have to decide if you want more revolt triggers or not and then you can build from there. You need to make sure you have enough basics to turn on your checklands and also to not get field of ruin'd off an entire color or double of a color when you need it most. DO NOT get rid of Settle, it is the best card in the entire deck and even if you don't have it in your hand at the time people think that you do and play around it if you have 2WW open and that's a huge chunk of life you save just off fear of a blowout alone. You need to make sure you have double white and double black pretty consistently on turn 4 or you will struggle. I'm no math guy so I'm not sure what actual distribution you would need but the decks I posted earlier both play smoothly and i've only been screwed out of a color I needed maybe two games out of a hundred.
I'm not a huge fan of essence scatter because our deck is really optimized to take care of creatures once they hit the board, I don't need extra slots that are redundant to what my deck is already accomplishing. Maybe a 1 of or a max 2 of but honestly it's been a dead card in hand a lot more than I've really needed it. Outside of things that are devastating ETB like Gonti, I really don't have a problem with most creatures resolving and I'll disallow or syncopate the remainder.
Even without working with Gearhulk Pull is still a great card, since I'm more than willing to throw that card away at the end of turn to eat a counter so I can stick Teferi the next turn against the control counter. I've drawn up to 11 cards with it and anytime X > 3 it's pretty much a game ender on the spot if it resolves.
And thanks to everyone for all the great discussion! It helps a lot.
How are people finding Syncopate? I liked it when I first started to play (in Theros RTR standard), but as time went on, I found I don't like it as much.
EDIT: Here's my list.
Notes:
4x Drowned Catacomb
1x Evolving Wilds
2x Fetid Pools
2x Field of Ruin
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Irrigated Farmland
3x Island
4x Isolated Chapel
2x Plains
2x Swamp
Instant (22)
1x Cast Down
1x Commit
4x Disallow
4x Fatal Push
2x Glimmer of Genius
2x Hieroglyphic Illumination
1x Pull from Tomorrow
3x Settle the Wreckage
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Enchantment (5)
3x Seal Away
2x Search for Azcanta
Creature (5)
2x The Scarab God
3x Torrential Gearhulk
2x Arguel's Blood Fast
3x Duress
2x Essence Scatter
2x Fumigate
2x Invoke the Divine
4x Negate
We'll have to agree to disagree here, Moment Of Craving has been great. You mention HOK, but what about tokens from History Of Benalia? They have vigilance. The life gain is very relevant, as mono red is still a thing (somehow...) and Vehicles is a tough match. There is also The W/B Knight deck, with the knight that sacs to give another one indestructible. Also, T2 Steel Leaf with a Push with no revolt is a blank. I don't accept being in those situations. This is a great bridge from the early game to the mid-late game where Settle comes online and shuts down their attacking options.
Of course, I disagree here, Cast Down has been insane. Even with 3 or 4 revolt enablers, it misses too much for my tastes.
Settle is too good to go, I agree there. I added 2 Fumigate main, and feel great about it. I don't think I can lose to any of the green decks anymore. This is another place Moment shines, as it buys time to find WW after turn 4 if needed.
I wholeheartedly disagree here. Scatter is your protection against things like Shalai, that turn off Settle (best card in the deck according to you), and other nasty ETB triggers. Also things like Hazoret and The Scab God, that never have to attack to beat you. It is also another cheap bridge to the mid-late game while you get your mana together. On the play, this is your best T2 play, as HOK and Gideon are the only non-creature threats that matter at all before T4.
I agree. I'm looking to fit at least one in. I think I'll try one in place of a Hieroglyphic Illumination tonight as a test. It's ridiculous against anything but control.
I like it in general, but I'm waiting until rotation to possibly run it. Disallow does too much, and Essence Scatter is too efficient.
I really love Essence Scatter for the reasons I stated above, but if you only run 4, I'd choose Disallow.
Invoke against Green and Vehicles, Forsake against Gift. What do you face more, and what do you feel you need the help for more? Go from there. I went to 3 Invoke since Vehicles is tough for my build.
Binding or Cast out: What permanents do you need help against? Also, how much green/Brontodon in your meta? Are you prepared to do the dance against the UW decks? I like not having to worry about it, but that's me. Same with Seal Away.
As far as your SB, I feel it should be 4/3 Duress/Negate instead of the other way around, as getting the T3 Gideon or History out of the opponents' hand can be HUGE. Also, pure UW has Azcanta advantage (more Field Of Ruin), and Arch Of Orazca, and runs more counters, so Duress is big game. You will have an easier time dismantling their hand then fighting the straight up counter war.
As I said earlier, I went to 2 Fumigate MD, and it went great. I like it MD. A good player whose opinion I trust on mono green told me after I beat him that green can't beat both because it's impossible to play around both and be efficient.
I just found this from Gab Nassif from May 16th. Nice 2hr league of him playing Esper, with a really different build from what we are running here. (1 settle, 3 censors, 2 cast out, that sort of thing). Granted he only played one 'meta deck', but it was still a good watch.
https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/esper-control-standard-channel-nassif/
EDIT: I went through my folder today looking at possible cards and saw profane procession. If the format goes more midrange, could it be looked at?
Checking this out now. Interesting.
I've considered Procession before. Solid removal, that becomes a win con, that is searchable with Azcanta. Need to get around to testing it.
Thoughts:
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Fetid Pools
2x Field of Ruin
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Irrigated Farmland
1x Island
4x Isolated Chapel
2x Plains
2x Swamp
Sorcery (1)
1x Fumigate
Instant (23)
1x Cast Down
3x Censor
3x Disallow
2x Essence Scatter
4x Fatal Push
4x Glimmer of Genius
3x Settle the Wreckage
3x Vraska's Contempt
2x The Scarab God
3x Torrential Gearhulk
Enchantment (3)
1x Seal Away
2x Search for Azcanta
Planeswalker (2)
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2x Arguel's Blood Fast
3x Duress
1x Essence Scatter
2x Forsake the Worldly
1x Fumigate
3x Negate
1x Vraska's Contempt
2x ???
1. Not sure. I'm running the mana base from this deck posted earlier, with good results: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1095607#paper . Went 3-3 at a PPTQ Saturday, every game loss besides one was mana screw, so I'm considering a 27th land. No color problems, but my only MD white cards are Settle, Fumigate and Teferi.
2. I play neither, but if forced to choose, I'd take Cast Out. Versatility, and cycling is a plus.
3. All of the options sound good. I wasn't a Lyra believer at first, but it's very good. No answer, lose the game. Races extremely well.
4. I'm on 3/2 right now. I tried one God, but it was too hard to find in a timely fashion, as well as not having the "ressurrect God to save God" trick.
5. I don't like Censor right now. Llanowar Elves makes it bad fast. I feel like it's too much air right now.
Yea, that's where I'm going think. Thanks for reinforcing my thinking.
Yea, I still need to get 1 or 2 Teferi so the Lyra may have to wait a little.
Yup. Unsure about the 3rd Teferi. That might be something to test. Maybe over that Cast Out.
I don't have as much green in my meta as you do, so that may be why I'm liking it haha. I also run the pushes to deal with the elves. If that changes, it'll probs be 2 Seal Away/Cast Down, 3rd Scatter and either a Cast Out or 3rd Teferi.
1) My suggestion: two more Islands and Irrigated Farmlands, go down a Plains, Isolated Chapel and Drowned Catacomb. having double black is the least important color to be able to get, but having double white is SUPER important. You only need 1 basic plains since your islands and tap-lands turn on chapel anyway.
2) I removed Cast out from my list, other than being a really nice cycle option it fights with a bunch of 4 mana options and also is less efficient than just outright countering or removing something all together. It can be a good sideboard 1 of but otherwise it's been pretty meh. I've also gone down to 3 seal away 1 cast down as my non fatal push/vraska's removal - there is so many vehicles/benalia running around that you don't want it to be a dead card in g1
3) I'm not a fan of Lyra, since it requires us to tap down and is pretty easily removable by pretty much every deck, I love Gonti though because he does something whether he leaves the battlefield or not and deathtouch is also a nice added bonus. I'd probably cut a Vraska's in the SB you don't need the whole grip of 4. I'd go with Doomfall for persistent threats/more discard instead. I've been experimenting with Regal Caracal as it achieves kind of the same thing as Lyra on an open board but goes wide enough to avoid Settle in the mirror/control. I might just go 2 Gonti but i'll let you know how the 1 Gonti 1 Caracal testing goes.
4) I run 3 Teferi and 2 Scarab currently and I'm probably going to go 3:1 instead. Scarab God is an amazing card but I run a full playset of syncopate, and that along with almost all of my removal exiles means that I have to disallow a creature spell if I want to Scarab God it and that just feels bad since Disallow is much more important and flexible than that. Did you mean the split of Gearhulk/Scarab God though, cause you only run 2 Teferi (I'd run 3) but you need at least 3 gearhulks as it is one of our only win conditions.
5) Censor seems pretty meh in the face of syncopate, in the fact that Censor doesn't scale well where syncopate scales exponentially. Censor isn't a dead card because it cycles but once the cat is out of the bag and they know you have it they can much more easily play around it. I would definitely run 4 Disallow though it's by a large margin the best counter in the entire format and i've won games in a variety of ways off denying triggers (the most recent one being fumigating the board and then disallowing the Scarab God trigger).
Thanks Yuz.
1. I'll definitely give that a shot!
2. I can see where you're coming from. I'll give the 4th Disallow a test in that spot.
3. I can try it, it just feels weird not running a full set in the 75. Does that make sense (re: cutting sb contempt)? Also, I get what you're saying about Lyra, but it is a must kill threat. I'm currently with Gonti and 4th Duress in that spot. I personally don't like Caracal as a 1 of.
4. I do mean Teferi:Scarab. Already running 3 Hulks. I would like to fit a 3rd Tef in, but gotta find room.
5. That is true, but currently, hardly anyone is running Censor. I could try -3 Censor +1 Tef +2 Synco. See how that goes. I'm jst worried I'm a little low of counter/removal early on.
@chaos, you definitely can. But if everyone is prepared for Lyra, wouldn't it just eat removal? I'll put it into my consideration pile :).
I can't endorse not running 4 Contempt, I feel it's the main reason to run black besides The Scarab God.
I would also fill out the Disallows before adding any Syncopates.
I had the same doubts about Lyra, but it has been great. Several decks have to have the removal (as well as resolve it) or, they just lose. Mono green, mono red, W/B, Vehicles. Also, it stomps down planeswalkers very quickly, as well as profitably. Even a 4/4 reanimated Lyra from the Scarab God beats about 85% of the creatures you'll encounter in this metagame.
I tried to cater my MD and SB to have game against UW G1, and still have a well rounded gameplan against everything else.
Wins:
2-0 Vs GB Snek (EASY mode)
2-1 Vs RB Vehicles
2-1 Vs UB Midrange
Loss to
UB Mirror
My deck is not prepped for the mirror so I lost handily here.
Win but loss due to timer (grr, I played the heck out of this match)
UW Control, literally exiled every Planeswalker they had in the Main. Opponent was kind and admitted he had no way to win. Win in my heart
4-1 overall, 3-2 according to mtgo lol
2 The Scarab God
Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
Land
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Field of Ruin
7 Island
7 Swamp
Artifact
4 Torrential Gearhulk
3 Glimmer of Genius
4 Disallow
4 Fatal Push
2 Essence Scatter
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Commit // Memory
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Moment of Craving
3 Syncopate
4 Knight of Malice
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Jace's Defeat
4 Negate
4 Duress
Sb cards that mattered:
Knight of Malice put a wrench in RB's aggro plan (saved me at least 6pts) but at the same time it's not the best nor most impactful creature; but I had for this card against UW after SB. My SB would've been:
In: All of it, all 15 cards
Out: -1 Gearhulk, -4 Push, -2 Moment of Craving, -2 Essence Scatter, -3 Syncopate (I think it's better to just have Negate after SB), -2 Commit // Memory, -1 Hieroglyphic.
This was the plan, never got to execute it because see above lol
My deck still needs work, but I think UB has the tools, and Scarab God is still insane.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Contempt is a good card but it is often sitting in my hand not being used even only running 2 copies. The creatures either 1) get dealt with through seal away/settle/push or outright countered and the only time I HAVE to use vraska's or lose is against Teferi or Chandra, both of which can just be countered. I do agree that Vraska's gives us some reach but I feel like more than 3 is just redundant unless your meta is super aggressive. To each their own though.
I'm currently through a league and i'll give Lyra a chance in the next league I run, right now i'm running double Gonti, and am 3-1 thusfar. Gonti is just so good, and has turned the tide of the game every time I play him.
I see your point, but I look at it as the "emergency reset button". It keeps them honest, and cleans up almost all of the accidental things that resolve, as well as life gain. Every time I cut some, it ends up back in. It also lets you save counters by removing planeswalkers and things like gods that don't get easily removed by anything else.