For me, tempoU works great in mtga - I feel, that level of players as well as decks isn't very high.
But when I go to fnm with the same deck - I depend only on my luck.
The deck isn't really stable. You have core cards and the opponent doesn't have answers in time - fast win. If the opponent has answers - it will win, because the deck can't do anything in the middle/late game and have only one win plan.
Could anyone share sideboard plan and keep/mulligan hand thoughts? Versus Mono-Red Aggro, Golgari Midrange, Boros Angels, Esper Control and other "top" decks?
For me, tempoU works great in mtga - I feel, that level of players as well as decks isn't very high.
But when I go to fnm with the same deck - I depend only on my luck.
The deck isn't really stable. You have core cards and the opponent doesn't have answers in time - fast win. If the opponent has answers - it will win, because the deck can't do anything in the middle/late game and have only one win plan.
Could anyone share sideboard plan and keep/mulligan hand thoughts? Versus Mono-Red Aggro, Golgari Midrange, Boros Angels, Esper Control and other "top" decks?
Not sure which deck you are running and how your sideboard is setup. Are you running Surge Mare in the sideboard? On the front page there is information about how you sideboard for matchups.
5-0 list = MOL
I think all the 5 matchs is vs bg lol
I kinda doubt that...
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But when I go to fnm with the same deck - I depend only on my luck.
The deck isn't really stable. You have core cards and the opponent doesn't have answers in time - fast win. If the opponent has answers - it will win, because the deck can't do anything in the middle/late game and have only one win plan.
Could anyone share sideboard plan and keep/mulligan hand thoughts? Versus Mono-Red Aggro, Golgari Midrange, Boros Angels, Esper Control and other "top" decks?
That unstable feeling is kind of what you sign up for with a tempo deck. If you counter the right spell at the right time you win. If you don't or can't, you lose.
While the nut draw plays out like an aggro deck, you should not be trying to force aggro when you don't have the nuts. In the mid game you should be holding up mana and countering opposing bombs and/or using trickster to fend off good attacks and/or opting end of turn.
If you just tap out to jam your guys then yeah, you'll pretty much get ranched by decks playing bigger and scarier creatures.
There are three paths to victory with this deck:
(1) Unchecked early Obsession takes over the game.
(2) Hold off the opponent and protect your Tempest Djinn while it wins the game.
(3) Scuffle to a tempo win without Djinn and without Obsession (or with Obsession coming very late).
The first group runs almost on autopilot. That last group only happens when you draw a ton of counters and the opposing draw is bad. The second group of wins are tricky but manageable if you're careful. Seriously, Djinn can win games you don't think it can win. Djinn + running Tricksters can flat out steal games. Don't just slam Djinns into counters or removal unless it's a desperate situation.
ETA: After playing with the deck a bit, it feels like there's potential but it's not as well tuned as the mono blue version. Some thoughts on the card choice.
Kitesail Freebooter: A++, best payoff for playing black, 100% would cast again. Just getting a peek at your opponent's hand is nice. Getting to pluck a card and sometimes even keep the freebooter alive? Amazing.
Thief of Sanity: Meh. Suffers badly by comparison to Tempest Djinn. It's a great three drop with two caveats: (1) you can keep it alive, and (2) you can keep yourself alive). When you drop the djinn it usually means the opponent has to take a turn off from attacking because of the big body. Every deck in the format attacks right through Thief of Sanity, and it dies to everything. If it gets a free run at the opponent it will usually spiral out of control, but even that isn't guaranteed. I'd rather be getting an extra 3/4/5 points of damage than picking a card up from my opponent's deck--I'm more likely to be constrained on mana than cards anyways. This feels like a sideboard card.
Fathom Fleet Captain gets the "spiral out of control" spot. He deters attacks to some extent and if allowed to run wild he will fill the board with pirates. Untapped tokens should be a big help in a race. He gets down a turn earlier than Thief of Sanity and he doesn't cost any of our precious blue mana. This makes it much easier to cast him and hold up protection.
Land count is a little aggressive (average CMC of 1.6 would usually be 21 lands) but I think it's ok between the opt and the curious obsession. It's also not like we always want Dreamcaller exactly on turn 4.
Like I said, pure theory. The Freebooter is so sweet that there ought to be a good Freebooter/Obsession deck in the format if we can find it.
There is something to be said about playing theoretical magic. None of my play testing results have indicated either of what you gentleman have said. To each their own though.
Double white is only two spells out of the board, against situations which, as Jacob pointed out, are otherwise auto losses for this deck. Seems somewhat reasonable, especially between all the card drawing and surveiling. Single white gets you conclave, which is another out for an otherwise unwinnable situation as just mono U.
As for Djinn, in what matchups is your djinn going unchecked like that though? The whole djinn goes the distance plan doesnt happen for me very often. Every relevant deck in the format has multiple answers to that strategy.
As I have said in this thread, I personally have two competitive league 5-0 finishes with the deck. The same deck that has been putting a 5-0 finish up in every WotC release since rotation. The same deck with a top 8 in the SCG classic. Sure, theoretical magic.
If you drop Djinn on turn four with Dive Down and/or Stormtamer and/or Spell Pierce available, you should be able to fend off their attempts to deal with it. If you drop Djinn on turn three with no protection then you will lose a lot of games.
I agree. I'd have a hard time justifying white in this particular build. This deck has many answers, but it does have it's weaknesses against Red and Green but that is expected.
Lol, I think Jacob missed my point. If you havent played the white splash, and you have just played the mono U version, all of the MTGO accolades you list are erroneous, as, its obviously not the same deck... So to say, this wouldnt work, or you wouldnt be able to cast that, in a vacuum, on a forum, having never piloted that specific version of the deck, that is the definition of playing theoretical magic
It seems like a splash is warranted, or, at least that seems somewhat indicated by the newer lists splashing for good black stuff. Maybe you guys should give it a try lol, instead of finding yourselves in positions that are auto-losses, or as Jacob said above: "That unstable feeling is kind of what you sign up for with a tempo deck. If you counter the right spell at the right time you win. If you don't or can't, you lose." Weird, how the splash versions, dont feel like that at all.
Interestingly, no Niv-Mizzets in the Top 16 of the Standard Classic. We might auto-lost to it, but if the deck can'[t fight off Golgary and WR Angels/Mid-Range, then maybe we don't worry about it so much.
Could we have enough Merfolk density to go stronger on Wizards, wider on creatures, and play Silvergill Adept? I suspect 16 sources aren't good enough. I'm looking at you FANAttIC, you Merfolk slinger you.
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Lol, I think Jacob missed my point. If you havent played the white splash, and you have just played the mono U version, all of the MTGO accolades you list are erroneous, as, its obviously not the same deck... So to say, this wouldnt work, or you wouldnt be able to cast that, in a vacuum, on a forum, having never piloted that specific version of the deck, that is the definition of playing theoretical magic
It seems like a splash is warranted, or, at least that seems somewhat indicated by the newer lists splashing for good black stuff. Maybe you guys should give it a try lol, instead of finding yourselves in positions that are auto-losses, or as Jacob said above: "That unstable feeling is kind of what you sign up for with a tempo deck. If you counter the right spell at the right time you win. If you don't or can't, you lose." Weird, how the splash versions, dont feel like that at all.
Everybody else is able to play with the blue version and win. You apparently can't. It could be that everybody else in the world is lying about their results. MTG online and the SCG open are all engaged in a vast conspiracy to promote the sale of islands. Or maybe you should learn how to play the deck better before you start making wholesale changes.
Your initial post identified a flaw in the deck that is actually a flaw in your playstyle. You then suggested a change that blatantly weakens the performance of the deck. You have yet to post a list or any results other than your own supposed playtesting.
Could the current deck be improved? Probably, that's the purpose of the thread. I've played a lot of games with the black splash, though, enough to know that losing the Djinn really hurts. It's not something that will be made up by a six white source "splash" for double white cards.
@redtwister
Funny thing is that I did play heavier Merfolk Djinn list with Adepts instead of Sprite and Watertrap instead of Exclusion Mage, just because I couldn't find mentioned cards There were even two Tempest Callers instead of Sleep (I had those but I also needed to up Merfolk count for Adepts). No one takes random crap for trade. Won a tournament with it, which was hilarious. I had to fill my deck with suspect cards because I also lacked 2 Djinns and all four Dive Downs, but Curious Obsession's power can't be denied, even with draft chaff.
I like your Shaper Apprentice inclusion if you believe Chainyboi will not be so prevalent.
But I am not married to Merfolk subtype if there are no additional synergies, playing blue beatdown/tempo/aggro/whateveritiscalled is enough for me to feel comfortable. Delver, Heroic, Devotion, all great in their time.
If other decks take dump on Niv that is good news.
@FANAttIC
I thought you might have taken a swing at it. Not that I am trying to peg you down as "All Merfolk, all the time" guy, but I respect your experience there and whether or not you feel like a Merfolk-heavy build is actually viable means more to be than non-Merfolk player opinion. I like the idea of going wider with a creature that draws cards, but I worry that the number of Merfolk required to not get stuck with uncastable Adept in hand is too high below 20+ Merfolk. On the other hand, it also happens that the viable Merfolk are also all Wizards, doubling our Wizard count from 8 to 16, which seems relevant.
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Yep, there are endless Merfolk Wizards in Standard now, but only Adept (even if greatest card) is not enough reason for more dedication to the tribe.
The other problem is that Chainwhirler is close to gg vs that build and our matchup against beatdown worse in general.
If we employ more Surge and Diamond after side, then Adept cohesion takes a hit and I feel that can't be solved.
I like where we are as Djinn.dec and the only thing missing is more artifacts for Zahid. That would be great as plan C (A is CO, B is Tempest + Dive Down), more cheap fat to close the game. But with Kaladesh all relevant artifacts are gone. So here we are.
The black splash is great for the ability to attack the hand and kill creatures. However, the Djinn-shaped hole in the deck is very noticeable when you get stuck in a racing situation.
What about the other GRN-supported splash? Red lets us kill creatures and gives us a variable power 4 toughness flier...
Depending on how it plays out, once we're running both burn and counterspells (and opt, I guess) then Mission Briefing starts to get a little interesting. It's no Snapcaster Mage, but we do get decent mileage out of binning irrelevant stuff.
The Drake won't be as high power as the Djinn, but even a 2/4 can deter early attacks. And we could reasonably get it to a 4/4 by the time we turn the corner. I'll try taking it for a spin at least and see how things go.
The black splash is great for the ability to attack the hand and kill creatures. However, the Djinn-shaped hole in the deck is very noticeable when you get stuck in a racing situation.
What about the other GRN-supported splash? Red lets us kill creatures and gives us a variable power 4 toughness flier...
Depending on how it plays out, once we're running both burn and counterspells (and opt, I guess) then Mission Briefing starts to get a little interesting. It's no Snapcaster Mage, but we do get decent mileage out of binning irrelevant stuff.
The Drake won't be as high power as the Djinn, but even a 2/4 can deter early attacks. And we could reasonably get it to a 4/4 by the time we turn the corner. I'll try taking it for a spin at least and see how things go.
I would be tempted to drop Wizard's Retort in favor of Ionize
Also would remove guildgates since they would slow down the game.
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I'd would be tempted to drop Wizard's Retort in favor of Ionize
Also would remove guildgates since they would slow down the game.
I think you're right about the Ionize. With only the four wizards in the deck Retort is full cost most of the time. We definitely care about the 2 damage.
I think we want the guildgates. We still want to hit UUU most of the time since we will often have a key turn where we want to triple spell (some combination of obsession, dive down, spell pierce, or stormtamer activation). I found that having two tap lands in the deck, while not ideal, was manageable.
Quick thoughts after running through a friendly league:
Enigma Drake is a little inconsistent. I think we want a few more proactive spells to fuel it. That said, he does always have the four toughness and sometimes the inconsistency means you have a 9/4 on turn five. Definitely plays well with Nightveil Sprite.
It's so relaxing to have real burn available. Whether it's sending a bolt over Niv-Mizzet to finish the game or cleaning the board after your opponent sneaked a creature past your counter shields, it just feels good.
I had a one-of Mission Briefing in over a spell pierce and it was surprisingly good. I finished one opponent off with the old bolt-snap-bolt routine, used it to rebuy a spell pierce, and even felt ok using it to mega-opt. I don't think you want more than one (certainly not more than two), but one copy offers a decent amount of value. Also meshes well with Nightveil Sprite and Enigma Drake.
Ral out of the side was fairly meh. I just may not have run into the right matchup for him, but it also hurts that we aren't like Izzet Spells where his -3 is just a Murder. Possible he should be a Fight with Fire for Lyra/Niv-Mizzet killing purposes. I could also see one Beacon Bolt doing work.
Lava Coil out of the side is fantastic. I actually managed to beat an Arclight Phoenix deck. Game one I finished him just in time with flashed back burn and game two I had Lava Coil for every phoenix.
All that said, I think the red splash has potential. This is where I am with the list for now:
Shocks over counters to help buff the Drakes. Ionize in over Retort for more burn to the face. One more mountain grudgingly added to help fuel the early burn.
Quick thoughts after running through a friendly league: Enigma Drake is a little inconsistent. I think we want a few more proactive spells to fuel it. That said, he does always have the four toughness and sometimes the inconsistency means you have a 9/4 on turn five. Definitely plays well with Nightveil Sprite.
How does it fare against graveyard hate?
Deck feels awkward...feels like we are just a bad version of a UR drake deck.
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[quote from="jacobk »" url="/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/799704-mono-blue-tempo?comment=68"]
How does it fare against graveyard hate?
Deck feels awkward...feels like we are just a bad version of a UR drake deck.
Haven't run into GY hate yet. If somebody wants to waste cards on that I'm all in favor of it. Our plan A is still to get Curious Obsession running and counter everything relevant the opponent tries to do.
I've seen combo drakes with Arclight Phoenix and control drakes with Niv-Mizzet. I haven't seen a tempo drakes deck. The drake for this deck plays the same role as the djinn in mono-U. It's an emergency blocker who kills them before they kill us. The goal is to play a good tempo deck where the drake happens to be good instead of warping the whole deck around making the drake good.
I'm not sure if it's an attainable goal but my initial experience with the burn package was positive.
Played a lot of games last night against BG Mid-Range(8 games, 5-3) and GW Tokens(5 games, 4-1). The Mono-U felt generally very strong. I like where the build is at overall, though maybe some tinkering is still in order. Djinn is super strong late game. I just suddenly took over games where I was behind and flooded, but had counter/protection spells up. The games where I had issues were the ones where I got mana-screwed much, much moreso than the ones where I flooded, thanks to Djinn.
RE: UR, I am never one to sniff at having reach/removal in a tempo deck (23 points of possible burn feels good), but a couple of things worry me.
1. Merfolk Trickster is surprisingly powerful at multiple points in the game. I like Flash/tap/threat + Wizard.
2. Alongside that, 16 vs. 20 creatures... I feel like we end up with a lot of stuff in hand if they kill our early creatures and we don't catch up to them because Drake ain't no Djinn.
3. Sometimes 20 lands already felt tight and going to two colors with no additional draw feels a little rough. I don't see how we don't end up at 21 lands and the prospect of being screwed off of R sometimes in a deck that already doesn't ever want to give up tempo feels risky.
4. The curve feels slightly higher since you have to cast Ionize for 3, but often enough Retort is just UU, but that seems marginal.
That said... This build looks to have a better game against Mono-R and Mono-W aggro, especially post-sideboard.
Mission Briefing seems really, really interesting even for Mono-U as a 1-of. I like the idea of being able to choose something in the graveyard, it makes dropping a card off of surveil feel much, much better.
Looking forward to the results of your testing though.
RE: UR, I am never one to sniff at having reach/removal in a tempo deck (23 points of possible burn feels good), but a couple of things worry me.
1. Merfolk Trickster is surprisingly powerful at multiple points in the game. I like Flash/tap/threat + Wizard.
2. Alongside that, 16 vs. 20 creatures... I feel like we end up with a lot of stuff in hand if they kill our early creatures and we don't catch up to them because Drake ain't no Djinn.
3. Sometimes 20 lands already felt tight and going to two colors with no additional draw feels a little rough. I don't see how we don't end up at 21 lands and the prospect of being screwed off of R sometimes in a deck that already doesn't ever want to give up tempo feels risky.
4. The curve feels slightly higher since you have to cast Ionize for 3, but often enough Retort is just UU, but that seems marginal.
That said... This build looks to have a better game against Mono-R and Mono-W aggro, especially post-sideboard.
Mission Briefing seems really, really interesting even for Mono-U as a 1-of. I like the idea of being able to choose something in the graveyard, it makes dropping a card off of surveil feel much, much better.
Looking forward to the results of your testing though.
You pretty much nailed it. The big issue between the Izzet version and the mono-U version is whether Lightning Strike is better than Merfolk Trickster. If the opponent plays Knight of Grace into Benalish Marshal, Ligtning Strike is amazing. If they play History of Benalia into Aurelia, not so much. Basically, with UR as configured you are even more dead to a resolved Aurelia/Lyra than you are with mono blue, and it's somewhat more likely to resolve. On the other hand, you have one turn to knock out an early Wildgrowth Walker before it grows out of control and you can shoot down a max size Jadelight Ranger. Lava Coil out of the side even gives you a fighting chance against turn two Steel Leaf Champion.
Mono red is a lot more manageable, although you can still lose, especially if they resolve Experimental Frenzy. Being able to shock a Lavarunner/Steam-Kin and lightning strike a Chainwhirler feels good.
Enigma Drake is no Djinn, but it does a better impersonation than the Thief of Sanity. It's fine early as a 2/4 blocker, and in the drawn out mega-grind matchups it's usually Djinn-sized. Where it falls down is in those games where you have nothing going on but Djinn. Sometimes having your literal first play be turn four Djinn with Dive Down backup followed by turn five Djinn with Dive Down backup can be enough to win a game. The Drake won't do that for you. The Drake shares the Djinn's problem of weakness against 4+ power attackers.
The lands feel about right to me. You've got the opts and your nut draws can work off of two lands. Your curve tops out at three, even if ideally you play the Drake on four. Flood is super duper bad since we're mostly working on a 1-for-1 paradigm. I could see 21, but I think 22 would be too much.
Shock should probably be in the sideboard (where it already exists as the Shivan Fire). We aren't aggro enough for going upstairs to feel good in the matchups where you can't kill anything with it. I'm leaning towards a couple Essence Scatter in that slot, although that might just be the Aurelia-based PTSD talking.
I didn't feel the reduction in creatures that badly. Trickster is usually more of a spell than a creature. OTOH, I haven't run into one of those ultra-grind remove everything control decks yet.
I'm surprised how often I find myself wanting to draw Mission Briefing. In the late game when I want to draw some instant, I'd usually be thinking "ok, best draw is x... or Mission Briefing." It always felt good to hold onto it as the last card in my hand. My sense is that it gets a lot worse in multiples, though.
Overall I think Izzet has potential but needs tuning. Mono-U you either counter or race everything. Red gives you more options, which means more ways to go wrong in deck building.
ETA: Actually, I'll give Syncopate a go in the shock slot. It's a sometimes 2 mana counter that can hit whatever. I mostly want some protection against people blitzing me out on curve.
Side note: There seems to be a combo with Helm of the Host and Timestream Navigator which allow for endless turns on turn6?? I still need to research this, but if anyone wants to test that out. It would be cool.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
Somebody's going to bust Arclight Phoenix wide open at some point.
I have given up on the red splash. After trying out and scratching and clawing for 2-3 and 3-2 finishes then switching over to mono-U and cruising to 4-1 and 5-0 finishes I just had to admit it's not happening. The bottom line is that what we want to be doing with opposing early drops is ignoring them. When decks force us to deal with them it pushes us out of our comfort zone and makes the game tough. With the R splash I was almost committed to dealing with early drops.
Thanks for tuning the deck for us commons I'm also preparing for weekend tournaments with this deck so I have a question:
In a meta full of GB midrange and Red Aggro deck variants is it worth to maindeck Essence Scatter? If so, what could we take out, 1-2 Opts, or maybe one/two creatures? I like the 4x Spell pierce and Dive down so I wouldn't touch them.
Thanks.
You need all the card advantage you can get. Can probably remove 1-2 Spell pierce. Unless you plan on running Chart a Course
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[quote from="jacobk »" url="/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/799704-mono-blue-tempo?comment=74"]Thanks for tuning the deck for us commons I'm also preparing for weekend tournaments with this deck so I have a question:
In a meta full of GB midrange and Red Aggro deck variants is it worth to maindeck Essence Scatter? If so, what could we take out, 1-2 Opts, or maybe one/two creatures? I like the 4x Spell pierce and Dive down so I wouldn't touch them.
Thanks.
Cool, good luck with the tournament!
If you really want to pre-board for GB and red aggro you could also sneak in a couple of Surge Mares.
For a modest lean, since I trim opt and spell pierce in both matchups I would do something like -1 opt, -1 pierce, +2 scatter. If the meta is actual 50%+ plus GB and aggro I'd go -2 opt, -2 pierce, +2 scatter, +2 surge mare. Either way when you sideboard remember to adjust the plan for the changed main deck (i.e. I usually use 2 opt and 2 pierce as the flex cards, here you would use the scatters and mares).
No obsession wins: 3
No djinn wins: 5
No obsession or djinn wins: 2
Obsession by turn 3: 5 times
Losses:
Obsession in one, djinn in the other; in both cases loss was due to getting run over with good cards in hand. Once opposing rush, once choked on mana.
Conclusions:
Small sample size, of course, but I think it's fair to say that drawing obsession a lot helps you go 5-0. Lightning obsession followed by protection games are usually free wins. That said, it's still a big advantage even if the obsession doesn't start connecting until turn five.
Of the non-obsession wins, I would say that one was purely a Djinn victory, one was an honest to god tempo weenie rush that gave me delver flashbacks, and one was an incredibly favorable matchup.
I only played against one true aggro deck. That's usually the matchup where the djinn is most important, since you want to have on-board beef more than cards in hand.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
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Is it 5-0 in MTGA or in real fnms/showdowns/etc?
For me, tempoU works great in mtga - I feel, that level of players as well as decks isn't very high.
But when I go to fnm with the same deck - I depend only on my luck.
The deck isn't really stable. You have core cards and the opponent doesn't have answers in time - fast win. If the opponent has answers - it will win, because the deck can't do anything in the middle/late game and have only one win plan.
Could anyone share sideboard plan and keep/mulligan hand thoughts? Versus Mono-Red Aggro, Golgari Midrange, Boros Angels, Esper Control and other "top" decks?
I think all the 5 matchs is vs bg lol
Not sure which deck you are running and how your sideboard is setup. Are you running Surge Mare in the sideboard? On the front page there is information about how you sideboard for matchups.
I kinda doubt that...
-Stay Frosty
That unstable feeling is kind of what you sign up for with a tempo deck. If you counter the right spell at the right time you win. If you don't or can't, you lose.
While the nut draw plays out like an aggro deck, you should not be trying to force aggro when you don't have the nuts. In the mid game you should be holding up mana and countering opposing bombs and/or using trickster to fend off good attacks and/or opting end of turn.
If you just tap out to jam your guys then yeah, you'll pretty much get ranched by decks playing bigger and scarier creatures.
There are three paths to victory with this deck:
(1) Unchecked early Obsession takes over the game.
(2) Hold off the opponent and protect your Tempest Djinn while it wins the game.
(3) Scuffle to a tempo win without Djinn and without Obsession (or with Obsession coming very late).
The first group runs almost on autopilot. That last group only happens when you draw a ton of counters and the opposing draw is bad. The second group of wins are tricky but manageable if you're careful. Seriously, Djinn can win games you don't think it can win. Djinn + running Tricksters can flat out steal games. Don't just slam Djinns into counters or removal unless it's a desperate situation.
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Warkite Marauder
4 Thief of Sanity
3 Dreamcaller Siren
3 Dive Down
2 Spell Pierce
4 Essence Scatter
4 Lookout's Dispersal
2 Dead Weight
4 Drowned Catacomb
8 Island
6 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
3 Duress
1 Disdainful Stroke
4 Moment of Craving
2 Negate
1 Dreamcaller Siren
3 Doom Whisperer
A little bit of a pirate theme, Lookout's Dispersal over Wizard's Retort, and Thief of Sanity instead of Tempest Djinn. The go-big package in the side looks like you can switch into almost a Dimir Control sort of shell. Interesting deck.
ETA: After playing with the deck a bit, it feels like there's potential but it's not as well tuned as the mono blue version. Some thoughts on the card choice.
Kitesail Freebooter: A++, best payoff for playing black, 100% would cast again. Just getting a peek at your opponent's hand is nice. Getting to pluck a card and sometimes even keep the freebooter alive? Amazing.
Thief of Sanity: Meh. Suffers badly by comparison to Tempest Djinn. It's a great three drop with two caveats: (1) you can keep it alive, and (2) you can keep yourself alive). When you drop the djinn it usually means the opponent has to take a turn off from attacking because of the big body. Every deck in the format attacks right through Thief of Sanity, and it dies to everything. If it gets a free run at the opponent it will usually spiral out of control, but even that isn't guaranteed. I'd rather be getting an extra 3/4/5 points of damage than picking a card up from my opponent's deck--I'm more likely to be constrained on mana than cards anyways. This feels like a sideboard card.
Dreamcaller Siren: big old tempo swing. Very nice.
If I try this deck out again it will probably be something more like:
4 Dive Down
4 Opt
4 Lookout's Dispersal
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dead Weight
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Warkite Marauder
4 Fathom Fleet Captain
2 Storm Fleet Aerialist
2 Dreamcaller Siren
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dimir Guildgate
6 Island
4 Swamp
Fathom Fleet Captain gets the "spiral out of control" spot. He deters attacks to some extent and if allowed to run wild he will fill the board with pirates. Untapped tokens should be a big help in a race. He gets down a turn earlier than Thief of Sanity and he doesn't cost any of our precious blue mana. This makes it much easier to cast him and hold up protection.
Land count is a little aggressive (average CMC of 1.6 would usually be 21 lands) but I think it's ok between the opt and the curious obsession. It's also not like we always want Dreamcaller exactly on turn 4.
Like I said, pure theory. The Freebooter is so sweet that there ought to be a good Freebooter/Obsession deck in the format if we can find it.
Lol, I think Jacob missed my point. If you havent played the white splash, and you have just played the mono U version, all of the MTGO accolades you list are erroneous, as, its obviously not the same deck... So to say, this wouldnt work, or you wouldnt be able to cast that, in a vacuum, on a forum, having never piloted that specific version of the deck, that is the definition of playing theoretical magic
It seems like a splash is warranted, or, at least that seems somewhat indicated by the newer lists splashing for good black stuff. Maybe you guys should give it a try lol, instead of finding yourselves in positions that are auto-losses, or as Jacob said above: "That unstable feeling is kind of what you sign up for with a tempo deck. If you counter the right spell at the right time you win. If you don't or can't, you lose." Weird, how the splash versions, dont feel like that at all.
Could we have enough Merfolk density to go stronger on Wizards, wider on creatures, and play Silvergill Adept? I suspect 16 sources aren't good enough. I'm looking at you FANAttIC, you Merfolk slinger you.
20 Island
Creatures 24
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Shaper Apprentice
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Mist-cloaked Herald
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Tempest Djinn
4 Curious Obsession
4 Dive Down
4 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
4 Surge Mare
2 Watertrap Weaver
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Essence Scatter
2 Blink of an Eye
1 Time of Ice
Otherwise, I really like this build from jacobk
20 Island
Creatures 20
4 Nightveil Sprite
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Mist-cloaked Herald
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Tempest Djinn
4 Opt
4 Curious Obsession
4 Dive Down
4 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
4 Surge Mare
2 Exclusion Mage
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Essence Scatter
2 Blink of an Eye
1 Time of Ice
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
7 Island
7 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Watery Grave
Creatures (18)
4 Warkite Marauder
4 Thief of Sanity
4 Nightveil Sprite
4 Siren Stormtamer
2 Nightveil Predator
4 Curious Obsession
4 Dive Down
4 Essence Scatter
2 Spell Pierce
2 Admiral's Orders
2 Nightveil Predator
2 Silent Gravestone
4 Moment of Craving
3 Duress
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
-Stay Frosty
Everybody else is able to play with the blue version and win. You apparently can't. It could be that everybody else in the world is lying about their results. MTG online and the SCG open are all engaged in a vast conspiracy to promote the sale of islands. Or maybe you should learn how to play the deck better before you start making wholesale changes.
Your initial post identified a flaw in the deck that is actually a flaw in your playstyle. You then suggested a change that blatantly weakens the performance of the deck. You have yet to post a list or any results other than your own supposed playtesting.
Could the current deck be improved? Probably, that's the purpose of the thread. I've played a lot of games with the black splash, though, enough to know that losing the Djinn really hurts. It's not something that will be made up by a six white source "splash" for double white cards.
Before it's really worth playtesting a deck you have to have a competent mana base. Frank Karsten sat down and did the math for everybody: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
Funny thing is that I did play heavier Merfolk Djinn list with Adepts instead of Sprite and Watertrap instead of Exclusion Mage, just because I couldn't find mentioned cards
I like your Shaper Apprentice inclusion if you believe Chainyboi will not be so prevalent.
But I am not married to Merfolk subtype if there are no additional synergies, playing blue beatdown/tempo/aggro/whateveritiscalled is enough for me to feel comfortable. Delver, Heroic, Devotion, all great in their time.
If other decks take dump on Niv that is good news.
I thought you might have taken a swing at it. Not that I am trying to peg you down as "All Merfolk, all the time" guy, but I respect your experience there and whether or not you feel like a Merfolk-heavy build is actually viable means more to be than non-Merfolk player opinion. I like the idea of going wider with a creature that draws cards, but I worry that the number of Merfolk required to not get stuck with uncastable Adept in hand is too high below 20+ Merfolk. On the other hand, it also happens that the viable Merfolk are also all Wizards, doubling our Wizard count from 8 to 16, which seems relevant.
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
The other problem is that Chainwhirler is close to gg vs that build and our matchup against beatdown worse in general.
If we employ more Surge and Diamond after side, then Adept cohesion takes a hit and I feel that can't be solved.
I like where we are as Djinn.dec and the only thing missing is more artifacts for Zahid. That would be great as plan C (A is CO, B is Tempest + Dive Down), more cheap fat to close the game. But with Kaladesh all relevant artifacts are gone. So here we are.
What about the other GRN-supported splash? Red lets us kill creatures and gives us a variable power 4 toughness flier...
1 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Izzet Guildgate
4 Mist-cloaked Herald
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Nightveil Sprite
4 Enigma Drake
4 Dive Down
4 Opt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
4 Lightning Strike
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Lava Coil
3 Shivan Fire
2 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Depending on how it plays out, once we're running both burn and counterspells (and opt, I guess) then Mission Briefing starts to get a little interesting. It's no Snapcaster Mage, but we do get decent mileage out of binning irrelevant stuff.
The Drake won't be as high power as the Djinn, but even a 2/4 can deter early attacks. And we could reasonably get it to a 4/4 by the time we turn the corner. I'll try taking it for a spin at least and see how things go.
I would be tempted to drop Wizard's Retort in favor of Ionize
Also would remove guildgates since they would slow down the game.
-Stay Frosty
I think you're right about the Ionize. With only the four wizards in the deck Retort is full cost most of the time. We definitely care about the 2 damage.
I think we want the guildgates. We still want to hit UUU most of the time since we will often have a key turn where we want to triple spell (some combination of obsession, dive down, spell pierce, or stormtamer activation). I found that having two tap lands in the deck, while not ideal, was manageable.
Quick thoughts after running through a friendly league:
- Enigma Drake is a little inconsistent. I think we want a few more proactive spells to fuel it. That said, he does always have the four toughness and sometimes the inconsistency means you have a 9/4 on turn five. Definitely plays well with Nightveil Sprite.
- It's so relaxing to have real burn available. Whether it's sending a bolt over Niv-Mizzet to finish the game or cleaning the board after your opponent sneaked a creature past your counter shields, it just feels good.
- I had a one-of Mission Briefing in over a spell pierce and it was surprisingly good. I finished one opponent off with the old bolt-snap-bolt routine, used it to rebuy a spell pierce, and even felt ok using it to mega-opt. I don't think you want more than one (certainly not more than two), but one copy offers a decent amount of value. Also meshes well with Nightveil Sprite and Enigma Drake.
- Ral out of the side was fairly meh. I just may not have run into the right matchup for him, but it also hurts that we aren't like Izzet Spells where his -3 is just a Murder. Possible he should be a Fight with Fire for Lyra/Niv-Mizzet killing purposes. I could also see one Beacon Bolt doing work.
- Lava Coil out of the side is fantastic. I actually managed to beat an Arclight Phoenix deck. Game one I finished him just in time with flashed back burn and game two I had Lava Coil for every phoenix.
All that said, I think the red splash has potential. This is where I am with the list for now:2 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Izzet Guildgate
4 Mist-cloaked Herald
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Nightveil Sprite
4 Enigma Drake
4 Dive Down
4 Opt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ionize
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shock
1 Mission Briefing
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Lava Coil
3 Shivan Fire
1 Beacon Bolt
1 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Shocks over counters to help buff the Drakes. Ionize in over Retort for more burn to the face. One more mountain grudgingly added to help fuel the early burn.
How does it fare against graveyard hate?
Deck feels awkward...feels like we are just a bad version of a UR drake deck.
-Stay Frosty
Haven't run into GY hate yet. If somebody wants to waste cards on that I'm all in favor of it. Our plan A is still to get Curious Obsession running and counter everything relevant the opponent tries to do.
I've seen combo drakes with Arclight Phoenix and control drakes with Niv-Mizzet. I haven't seen a tempo drakes deck. The drake for this deck plays the same role as the djinn in mono-U. It's an emergency blocker who kills them before they kill us. The goal is to play a good tempo deck where the drake happens to be good instead of warping the whole deck around making the drake good.
I'm not sure if it's an attainable goal but my initial experience with the burn package was positive.
RE: UR, I am never one to sniff at having reach/removal in a tempo deck (23 points of possible burn feels good), but a couple of things worry me.
1. Merfolk Trickster is surprisingly powerful at multiple points in the game. I like Flash/tap/threat + Wizard.
2. Alongside that, 16 vs. 20 creatures... I feel like we end up with a lot of stuff in hand if they kill our early creatures and we don't catch up to them because Drake ain't no Djinn.
3. Sometimes 20 lands already felt tight and going to two colors with no additional draw feels a little rough. I don't see how we don't end up at 21 lands and the prospect of being screwed off of R sometimes in a deck that already doesn't ever want to give up tempo feels risky.
4. The curve feels slightly higher since you have to cast Ionize for 3, but often enough Retort is just UU, but that seems marginal.
That said... This build looks to have a better game against Mono-R and Mono-W aggro, especially post-sideboard.
Mission Briefing seems really, really interesting even for Mono-U as a 1-of. I like the idea of being able to choose something in the graveyard, it makes dropping a card off of surveil feel much, much better.
Looking forward to the results of your testing though.
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
You pretty much nailed it. The big issue between the Izzet version and the mono-U version is whether Lightning Strike is better than Merfolk Trickster. If the opponent plays Knight of Grace into Benalish Marshal, Ligtning Strike is amazing. If they play History of Benalia into Aurelia, not so much. Basically, with UR as configured you are even more dead to a resolved Aurelia/Lyra than you are with mono blue, and it's somewhat more likely to resolve. On the other hand, you have one turn to knock out an early Wildgrowth Walker before it grows out of control and you can shoot down a max size Jadelight Ranger. Lava Coil out of the side even gives you a fighting chance against turn two Steel Leaf Champion.
Mono red is a lot more manageable, although you can still lose, especially if they resolve Experimental Frenzy. Being able to shock a Lavarunner/Steam-Kin and lightning strike a Chainwhirler feels good.
Enigma Drake is no Djinn, but it does a better impersonation than the Thief of Sanity. It's fine early as a 2/4 blocker, and in the drawn out mega-grind matchups it's usually Djinn-sized. Where it falls down is in those games where you have nothing going on but Djinn. Sometimes having your literal first play be turn four Djinn with Dive Down backup followed by turn five Djinn with Dive Down backup can be enough to win a game. The Drake won't do that for you. The Drake shares the Djinn's problem of weakness against 4+ power attackers.
The lands feel about right to me. You've got the opts and your nut draws can work off of two lands. Your curve tops out at three, even if ideally you play the Drake on four. Flood is super duper bad since we're mostly working on a 1-for-1 paradigm. I could see 21, but I think 22 would be too much.
Shock should probably be in the sideboard (where it already exists as the Shivan Fire). We aren't aggro enough for going upstairs to feel good in the matchups where you can't kill anything with it. I'm leaning towards a couple Essence Scatter in that slot, although that might just be the Aurelia-based PTSD talking.
I didn't feel the reduction in creatures that badly. Trickster is usually more of a spell than a creature. OTOH, I haven't run into one of those ultra-grind remove everything control decks yet.
I'm surprised how often I find myself wanting to draw Mission Briefing. In the late game when I want to draw some instant, I'd usually be thinking "ok, best draw is x... or Mission Briefing." It always felt good to hold onto it as the last card in my hand. My sense is that it gets a lot worse in multiples, though.
Overall I think Izzet has potential but needs tuning. Mono-U you either counter or race everything. Red gives you more options, which means more ways to go wrong in deck building.
ETA: Actually, I'll give Syncopate a go in the shock slot. It's a sometimes 2 mana counter that can hit whatever. I mostly want some protection against people blitzing me out on curve.
Side note: There seems to be a combo with Helm of the Host and Timestream Navigator which allow for endless turns on turn6?? I still need to research this, but if anyone wants to test that out. It would be cool.
-Stay Frosty
I have given up on the red splash. After trying out and scratching and clawing for 2-3 and 3-2 finishes then switching over to mono-U and cruising to 4-1 and 5-0 finishes I just had to admit it's not happening. The bottom line is that what we want to be doing with opposing early drops is ignoring them. When decks force us to deal with them it pushes us out of our comfort zone and makes the game tough. With the R splash I was almost committed to dealing with early drops.
The added insult to injury was when I was staring at the Lightning Strike I brought in to replace Merfolk Trickster as my opponent went to town with his Adanto Vanguard.
This is what I'll be rocking when our local pptqs swing around in a week or so:
4 Mist-cloaked Herald
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Nightveil Sprite
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Tempest Djinn
4 Opt
4 Dive Down
4 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
4 Surge Mare
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Deep Freeze
2 Exclusion Mage
1 Time of Ice
You need all the card advantage you can get. Can probably remove 1-2 Spell pierce. Unless you plan on running Chart a Course
-Stay Frosty
Cool, good luck with the tournament!
If you really want to pre-board for GB and red aggro you could also sneak in a couple of Surge Mares.
For a modest lean, since I trim opt and spell pierce in both matchups I would do something like -1 opt, -1 pierce, +2 scatter. If the meta is actual 50%+ plus GB and aggro I'd go -2 opt, -2 pierce, +2 scatter, +2 surge mare. Either way when you sideboard remember to adjust the plan for the changed main deck (i.e. I usually use 2 opt and 2 pierce as the flex cards, here you would use the scatters and mares).
Win 1 (white weenie): turn 3 obsession, turn 6 djinn (exclusion mage great)
Win 2 (white weenie): turn 5 obsession, turn 6 djinn (opp hand poor)
Win 3 (lich's mastery): turn 3 obsession, no relevant djinn
Win 4 (lich's mastery): no obsession, no djinn (great matchup)
Win 5 (gb): turn 3 double obsession, turn 4 triple, no djinn
Loss 2 (gb): turn 4 obsession (killed), turn 6 double obsession (one protection, then killed), no djinn (greedy one land keep developed too slow)
Win 6 (gb): turn 2 obsession, turn 3 double, no djinn
Win 7 (gb): no djinn, turn 6 obsession to no real effect (four 1-power rush + counter backup got there)
Win 8 (gb): no obsession, turn 4 djinn (trickster 2 + djinn 5, 6, 7)
Win 9 (jeskai angels/midrange): turn 3 obsession, turn 4 djinn
Win 10 (jeskai angels/midrange): turn 4 djinn, turn 5 double obsession
Note: "to no effect" means the card was played on the last or second to last turn when the game was already locked up.
Wins:
Obsession on turn: 3, 5, 3, none, 3, 2, none, none, 3, 5
Djinn on turn: 6, 6, none, none, none, none, none, 4, 4, 4
No obsession wins: 3
No djinn wins: 5
No obsession or djinn wins: 2
Obsession by turn 3: 5 times
Losses:
Obsession in one, djinn in the other; in both cases loss was due to getting run over with good cards in hand. Once opposing rush, once choked on mana.
Conclusions:
Small sample size, of course, but I think it's fair to say that drawing obsession a lot helps you go 5-0. Lightning obsession followed by protection games are usually free wins. That said, it's still a big advantage even if the obsession doesn't start connecting until turn five.
Of the non-obsession wins, I would say that one was purely a Djinn victory, one was an honest to god tempo weenie rush that gave me delver flashbacks, and one was an incredibly favorable matchup.
I only played against one true aggro deck. That's usually the matchup where the djinn is most important, since you want to have on-board beef more than cards in hand.
20 Island
Creatures (19)
3 Exclusion Mage
4 Merfolk Trickster
3 Mist-cloaked Herald
1 Nightveil Sprite
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Tempest Djinn
4 Curious Obsession
2 Chart a Course
4 Dive Down
4 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
4 Diamond Mare
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Blink of an Eye
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
1 Entrancing Melody
1 Selective Snare
1 Essence Scatter
2 Sleep
2 Metamorphic Alteration
1 Sentinel Totem
-Stay Frosty