I guess that I am not supposed to discuss it in competitive, but I have not wanted to pay for Krases until they came down. Finally, I used store credit for a lightly used one and borrowed two more so I could finally play the premier midrange deck after it became obsolete. But enough about me.
I started with this Reddit post but had only 3 Krases and no Ugin. So I put the bad list below together when I ran out of time before Monday Night Magic. This is what I would actually recommend.
Anyway, I went 3-0-1 with the semi-budget version and could have easily been 4-0. I think that this deck is still good and will have a meta moment over the time to come. Hydroid Krasis is as good as expected. I never played Liliana, but I still think she can be good.
Match 1: Izzet Invade the City brew 2-0 (1-0-0)
Opponent deck that seemed to be trying to fill the bin with instants and sorceries like a drakes deck and get there with Invade the City. Don't make decks that invest multiple cards in fragile and non-evasive win conditions without ways to protect them.
Match 2: Esper Control 1-1 (1-0-1)
Opponent is a good player that was extremely pleasant to play against.
Game 1, I got Davriel down early and rode the Vivien card advantage train to Carnage Tyrant and eventually to the win. Weirdly, Roalesk was good when I had a Davriel on 1 and Roalesk got wrathed. The double proliferate on Davriel was great.
Game 2, opponent was going to untap with Teferi at 8 just as time was running out. I was happy to concede since it is a less competitive setting and an opponent that I admired. Had I wanted, I think I could have survived turns and gotten the match win.
Match 3: Grixis Superfriends with Soul Diviner, Bolas creature, Bolas walker, Angrath and Sarkhan. 2-0 (2-0-1)
Game 1: Opponent mulled once on the play and was stuck on one land for a few turns, but made a game of it before I finally ran him over.
Game 2: More of a game with back and forth. The key play was when I had Carnage Tyrant, 2 counter Krasis, 4/3 Jadelight and elf attacking into creature Bolas, Angrath at 3, Soul Diviner, 6 lands and no cards. I attacked Angrath with the Tyrant, went face with the Jadelight and didn't attack with the smaller creatures. I wanted to force opponent to choose between Angrath and Bolas before they would know whether they would be able to flip Bolas. The attack may have been wrong, but it worked out well for me.
Match 4: Grixis Midrange with Phoenix. 2-0 (3-0-1)
Opponent was 3-0 and offered the draw, but my EV differential was too high, so I chose to play.
Game 1: Early Thought Erasure took Roalesk which I got back a few turns later (fighting over bad cards is ridiculous, but sometimes I just draw crap). Eventually I got a Vivien down, drew cards and shot down dragons for long enough to grind them out.
Game 2: I got enough early damage in with explore creatures and Krases at 4 counters that I had them down to 6 against a 3/2 Branchwalker and an elf. They had a Hostage Taker with an exiled Jadelight Ranger. I played Roalesk, put two counters on the elf and presented lethal, forcing a trade that would give me the Jadelight Ranger back. They scooped.
Llanowar Elves into t2 Davriel has been great against Esper Control. It seems kinda bad aginst Mono-R, particularly on the draw, but I have only faced Esper Control with it so far.
Another 3-0-1 with Sultai Midrange at a Monday night Standard Showdown. Pulling an M19 Vivien from the Showdown pack means that I should play the deck at the coming MCQ, right? Probably not, but unless my Arena testing goes horribly, I am liking it. All the grinders look scornful, so I don't think it will be wearing the target.
Beat a Naya Aggro brew 2-0, Bant Hero 2-0 and Wb Aggro 2-0 before chopping with Esper Control. Massacre Girl was quite good out of the board against Bant Hero and WW. Davriel was solid and Nissa took over in a game against Bant Hero. Otherwise, a pretty stock list taking some inspiration from Yellowhat.
I really like both cards, but when posting in competitive, I feel the need to honor the constraints of the section. I do believe the common wisdom that a 4-drop creature needs some ETB effect or at least haste to be viable, particularly in a format with a 4-mana wrath in one of the best decks.
Roalesk seems interesting in Vannifar pod chains as it has both an ETB and an upon dying effect, but the threshold for 5 drops is even higher. Storrev produces value with a successful swing along with an above curve body. I cannot honestly recommend either for a competitively-optimized Sultai deck. Please prove me wrong!
I took a pretty stock version of Sultai Mid to an MCQ. After starting with a match loss for being late, I went 3-2-1. Deck was fine, but not great. I beat Mono-R Aggro, barely Azorius Aggro and Esper Midrange while losing to Drakes/Phoenixes and Esper Midrange. I drew Simic Mass Manipulation.
I am building 4 Color Command the Dreadhorde, which I intend to post about in this thread.
I am assuming this is the 4C Dreadhorde post. If not my bad. I kind of have a weird question. I typically play Bo1 on arena. I think Dreadhorde could be the right deck for it. You want a deck that has game against both mono red and control. This is kind of what I was thinking.....
As you can see I am kinda pre sideboarding a little against mono red. In my head this seems like it would have game against both Mono Red and Control. Any opinions?
As someone currently playing 4c Dreadhorde, its red matchup isnt as good as you would think. While it does have the explore package, it durdles more than traditional BG midrange and your life total is a lot lower by the time you get to your Dreadhorde, rendering it far less useful if useable at all.
I assume you know that Bo1 is considered hostile to midrange because there are usually dead cards that are improved post-board.
The changes seem decent, cutting back on the Commands and Tamiyo, maindecking Brontodon, cutting back on Druids and adding a Vraska.
Just spitballing here. If Mono-R is still bad, I could see getting rid of the last Paradise Druid, cutting back on Threeferi or Tamiyo and maybe adding a Seekers' Squire or a Trostani.
My biggest problem on limited play with the archetype is that some builds just seem to loop Command without doing much else. I've found myself adding action for loop pieces. What's the best action card against Mono-R? Is Chupacabra good? Moment of Craving? Despark? Assassin's Trophy?
Sorry 'bout not having more definitive suggestions, but maybe these ideas will stimulate your thinking. I'd enjoy hearing how it goes for you.
I started with this Reddit post but had only 3 Krases and no Ugin. So I put the bad list below together when I ran out of time before Monday Night Magic. This is what I would actually recommend.
Anyway, I went 3-0-1 with the semi-budget version and could have easily been 4-0. I think that this deck is still good and will have a meta moment over the time to come. Hydroid Krasis is as good as expected. I never played Liliana, but I still think she can be good.
Match 1: Izzet Invade the City brew 2-0 (1-0-0)
Opponent deck that seemed to be trying to fill the bin with instants and sorceries like a drakes deck and get there with Invade the City. Don't make decks that invest multiple cards in fragile and non-evasive win conditions without ways to protect them.
Match 2: Esper Control 1-1 (1-0-1)
Opponent is a good player that was extremely pleasant to play against.
Game 1, I got Davriel down early and rode the Vivien card advantage train to Carnage Tyrant and eventually to the win. Weirdly, Roalesk was good when I had a Davriel on 1 and Roalesk got wrathed. The double proliferate on Davriel was great.
Game 2, opponent was going to untap with Teferi at 8 just as time was running out. I was happy to concede since it is a less competitive setting and an opponent that I admired. Had I wanted, I think I could have survived turns and gotten the match win.
Match 3: Grixis Superfriends with Soul Diviner, Bolas creature, Bolas walker, Angrath and Sarkhan. 2-0 (2-0-1)
Game 1: Opponent mulled once on the play and was stuck on one land for a few turns, but made a game of it before I finally ran him over.
Game 2: More of a game with back and forth. The key play was when I had Carnage Tyrant, 2 counter Krasis, 4/3 Jadelight and elf attacking into creature Bolas, Angrath at 3, Soul Diviner, 6 lands and no cards. I attacked Angrath with the Tyrant, went face with the Jadelight and didn't attack with the smaller creatures. I wanted to force opponent to choose between Angrath and Bolas before they would know whether they would be able to flip Bolas. The attack may have been wrong, but it worked out well for me.
Match 4: Grixis Midrange with Phoenix. 2-0 (3-0-1)
Opponent was 3-0 and offered the draw, but my EV differential was too high, so I chose to play.
Game 1: Early Thought Erasure took Roalesk which I got back a few turns later (fighting over bad cards is ridiculous, but sometimes I just draw crap). Eventually I got a Vivien down, drew cards and shot down dragons for long enough to grind them out.
Game 2: I got enough early damage in with explore creatures and Krases at 4 counters that I had them down to 6 against a 3/2 Branchwalker and an elf. They had a Hostage Taker with an exiled Jadelight Ranger. I played Roalesk, put two counters on the elf and presented lethal, forcing a trade that would give me the Jadelight Ranger back. They scooped.
Bad list that I played last night:
3 Hydroid Krasis
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Hostage Taker
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
4 Jadelight Ranger
1 Roalesk, Apex Hybrid
1 Storrev, Devkarin Lich
1 Carnage Tyrant
Enchantment
1 The Eldest Reborn
Land
3 Forest
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Memorial to Folly
4 Watery Grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Breeding Pool
2 Vraska's Contempt
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Ob Nixilis's Cruelty
1 Tyrant's Scorn
Sorcery
2 Find // Finality
Planeswalker
2 Vivien Reid
1 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
2 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General
3 Wildgrowth Walker
1 Hostage Taker
2 Thief of Sanity
2 Kraul Harpooner
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Moment of Craving
1 Negate
1 Duress
1 Cry of the Carnarium
1 Casualties of War
1 Finale of Eternity
What I would have played if I had the cards and more time to put it together:
4 Hydroid Krasis
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Hostage Taker
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
4 Jadelight Ranger
1 Carnage Tyrant
Enchantment
1 The Eldest Reborn
Land
3 Forest
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Memorial to Folly
4 Watery Grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Breeding Pool
2 Vraska's Contempt
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Ob Nixilis's Cruelty
1 Tyrant's Scorn
Sorcery
2 Find // Finality
Planeswalker
2 Vivien Reid
1 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
2 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General
3 Wildgrowth Walker
1 Hostage Taker
2 Thief of Sanity
2 Kraul Harpooner
1 The Elderspell
1 Moment of Craving
2 Negate
2 Duress
1 Cry of the Carnarium
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Beat a Naya Aggro brew 2-0, Bant Hero 2-0 and Wb Aggro 2-0 before chopping with Esper Control. Massacre Girl was quite good out of the board against Bant Hero and WW. Davriel was solid and Nissa took over in a game against Bant Hero. Otherwise, a pretty stock list taking some inspiration from Yellowhat.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Roalesk seems interesting in Vannifar pod chains as it has both an ETB and an upon dying effect, but the threshold for 5 drops is even higher. Storrev produces value with a successful swing along with an above curve body. I cannot honestly recommend either for a competitively-optimized Sultai deck. Please prove me wrong!
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I am building 4 Color Command the Dreadhorde, which I intend to post about in this thread.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
1 Paradise Druid
4 Wildgrowth Walker
4 Jadelight Ranger
2 Thrashing Brontodon
Spells
3 Duress
2 Cast Down
2 Command the Dreadhorde
3 Vraska, Golgari Queen
4 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
3 Tamiyo, Collector of Tales
Land
4 Interplanar Beacon
1 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Breeding Pool
2 Watery Grave
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Temple Garden
As you can see I am kinda pre sideboarding a little against mono red. In my head this seems like it would have game against both Mono Red and Control. Any opinions?
The changes seem decent, cutting back on the Commands and Tamiyo, maindecking Brontodon, cutting back on Druids and adding a Vraska.
Just spitballing here. If Mono-R is still bad, I could see getting rid of the last Paradise Druid, cutting back on Threeferi or Tamiyo and maybe adding a Seekers' Squire or a Trostani.
My biggest problem on limited play with the archetype is that some builds just seem to loop Command without doing much else. I've found myself adding action for loop pieces. What's the best action card against Mono-R? Is Chupacabra good? Moment of Craving? Despark? Assassin's Trophy?
Sorry 'bout not having more definitive suggestions, but maybe these ideas will stimulate your thinking. I'd enjoy hearing how it goes for you.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.