Recently started playing magic again. Bought most of the pieces for this deck for mtgo. I was wondering which pieces are rotating out that I'm going to have to replace.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
SB need more work but I am REALLY liking how this color combination has so many cards against so many different threats; brontodon, Vivien, trophy and Statue can resolve artifacts and enchantments. Vivien, Harpooner, trophy and Statue against fliers (harpooner blocking flier with STATUS). Deathgorger gives angle against graveyard decks.
I dont know if Ghalta is going to be too good but we'll see. I have heard the argument about the lack of Blossoming defense but they have to have the removal and there are many other threats.
Maybe 1 or 2 Charnel Troll instead those additional 2 drops?
I don't think you want that tapland. You need to go down forests. I think you can carry 2 swamps and 11 forests.
which gives you
19 green sources
10 black sources
Beyond that deck should handle I think most of it's matchups. I might still have issues against Jeskai/Sultai control but everybody might have problems with those.
You could replace Untamed Kavu with Thorn Lieutenant
I don't think ghalta would need to be removed it's just we have some easier ways to deal with it now.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
I don't think you want that tapland. You need to go down forests. I think you can carry 2 swamps and 11 forests.
which gives you
19 green sources
10 black sources
Beyond that deck should handle I think most of it's matchups. I might still have issues against Jeskai/Sultai control but everybody might have problems with those.
You could replace Untamed Kavu with Thorn Lieutenant[/card]
I don't think ghalta would need to be removed it's just probably have some easier ways to deal with it now.
I guess lieutenant is better, I was just think is its only a 2 of, either or.
Charnel Troll seems not to fit, too hard to cast. With Territory though, you can go the Midnight Reaper's route and name Knight (so you can cast Steel Leaf Champion on curve). Once again, just an idea.
If white is played instead, it gives the deck Knight of Autumn (which plays around our own Ferox, in opposition to Trophy) and wrath protection via Assure // Assemble.
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Charnel Troll seems not to fit, too hard to cast. With Territory though, you can go the Midnight Reaper's route and name Knight (so you can cast Steel Leaf Champion on curve). Once again, just an idea.
If white is played instead, it gives the deck Knight of Autumn (which plays around our own Ferox, in opposition to Trophy) and wrath protection via Assure // Assemble.
The mana base could not support Shaman, would never play unclaimed territory, too many creature types, couldnt play colored non-creature spells, especially games two and three when more come in. Shaman dies 100% by whirler, Branchwalker will draw you a land or prevent you from drawing what you dont want (could fuel a later game troll) and if so then survives whirler.
The idea of the troll is only as cards 59 and 60, two or one of, and would be played later in the game when the yard has creatures in it and you need those extra points of damage. Troll could discard late game collectors and llanowar elves to continue to grow. By turn 6-8 I think I would have come across a black mana to cast it. if you untap with troll you could have it at a 6/6 with trample by discarding a creature, then thats one creatures to be able to cast a freshly draw Ghalta or on that was rotting in your hand.
Idea anyway.
Ferox stops you from casting non-creature spells before Territory does.
The idea of the troll is only as cards 59 and 60, two or one of, and would be played later in the game when the yard has creatures in it and you need those extra points of damage. Troll could discard late game collectors and llanowar elves to continue to grow. By turn 6-8 I think I would have come across a black mana to cast it.
Ok, but it's a slot you wanted to force in place of the Thorn Lieutenants, which are real turn-2 plays. I believe it's more important to ensure a nice curve rather than a possible dead card in your hand in the early game. That late in the game, wouldn't you prefer Underrealm Lich ? Carnage Tyrant ? Would they fit in Lieutenant slots or elsewhere after all ?
The Troll is tempting to grow Collector but I doubt it works outside of a graveyard-based strategy.
I did cut Ghalta, Branchwalker and Scavenger only to visualize other worthwhile cards. Scavenger is in if graveyard decks make an impact, Ghalta is rather bad if control takes the cake, so those 2 cards (Brontodon as well) are mostly meta calls. Branchwalker helps with the mana but Song of Freyalise may be a strong sleeper card, which helps splashing and gives evasion to big fatties that are pretty easily "chumpable".
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Ferox stops you from casting non-creature spells before Territory does.
The idea of the troll is only as cards 59 and 60, two or one of, and would be played later in the game when the yard has creatures in it and you need those extra points of damage. Troll could discard late game collectors and llanowar elves to continue to grow. By turn 6-8 I think I would have come across a black mana to cast it.
Ok, but it's a slot you wanted to force in place of the Thorn Lieutenants, which are real turn-2 plays. I believe it's more important to ensure a nice curve rather than a possible dead card in your hand in the early game. That late in the game, wouldn't you prefer Underrealm Lich ? Carnage Tyrant ? Would they fit in Lieutenant slots or elsewhere after all ?
The Troll is tempting to grow Collector but I doubt it works outside of a graveyard-based strategy.
I did cut Ghalta, Branchwalker and Scavenger only to visualize other worthwhile cards. Scavenger is in if graveyard decks make an impact, Ghalta is rather bad if control takes the cake, so those 2 cards (Brontodon as well) are mostly meta calls. Branchwalker helps with the mana but Song of Freyalise may be a strong sleeper card, which helps splashing and gives evasion to big fatties that are pretty easily "chumpable".
Dont ignore 'Territory' not being able to cast all creatures in addition to other constraints.
I like the point of a better card later game then the troll.
Thoughts on your list:
I'll take the 4 branch walkers over thorn Lieutenants right now, my hot thought is enabling a stronger ETB trigger from the Harpooner not only to fight other larger fliers but also to help cast Ghalta faster,(im aware of harpooner dying if fight happens not enabling Ghalta, choice to be made there.) like Resilient Khenra providing 4 power at ETB. Thats only because I want to run ghalta until its bad.
2nd swamp necessary? well in your list yea due to the lich.
I would like to test it.
2nd swamp necessary? well in your list yea due to the lich.
Useful more than necessary ? I don't have the math in my head, and Song fixes the mana for Trophy (or whatever is splashed). I want all my sources untapped, from there I know 2 swamps don't hurt Steel Leaf openings too much, it's still a safe manabase.
I'll take the 4 branch walkers over thorn Lieutenants right now, my hot thought is enabling a stronger ETB trigger from the Harpooner not only to fight other larger fliers but also to help cast Ghalta faster
That makes total sense.
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I feel like the weakest card is probably Thorn Lieutenant but I can't really think of a 2 drop to replace it with.
Are you forgetting about Kraul Harpooner?
IMO, best 2 drops are: Kraul, B.Dub (B.W., Merfolk Branchwalker) then Leiutenant
Kraul Harpooner doesn't do it for me, and is worse than the other 2 drops for me. As a turn 2 play it's basically just a 3/2 for 2. (thats fantastic, what are you talking about?) And I can't see you getting much utility from its ability, especially once your opponent knows you have it. (so what if the Opponent knows, what are they not going to cast those cards or SB anti graveyard cards against you so harpooner cant do that? If so fantastic, they are buying you time or bring in bad cards.) It has no effect on something like Rekindling Phoenix which is one of the biggest problems for mono green.(um, yes, the effect is you trade harpooner for PHX [pelt collector pump?]and then they have to decide to throw it away on blocking a dork because its not blocking pelt collector [Trample after harpooner dying?] or steel leaf champion) The decks running Lyra Dawnbringer likely aren't playing cards to fuel your Kraul Harpooner(are you talking about U/W control that has access to Cleansing Nova?). You might be able to get a Nicol Bolas, the Ravager every now and then, but it's not like even that is a great trade for you.(Now I know you are just trolling me? LOL, trading a harpooner for a card that can turn into a planeswalker isnt worth it?)
Harpooner can block all three of those creatures you mentioned, Leiutenant and BW can not. Unless you want to take the deck in a direction that doesnt cast Ghalta, you want that extra power, especially if you can get it to come into play as 4 or 5.
Thankfully this discussion made me realize the interaction of Harpooner trading with a flier, removing a blocker, then potentially triggering Pelt collector.
Harpooners also 'feed themselves' in this manner; dying for the next one to be stronger.
I have tested a Gb list against Boros midrange (not aggro) and found an 50% winrate (only 6 matches so far).
Some observations: Turn 3 Steel Leaf into turn 4 Nullhide can't be beat. Deafening Clarion is bad against these two cards. The only way to deal with Nullhide for boros is a huge blocker in for example Ajani's Pridemate or a 6 mana Ixalan's Binding. Citywide Bust was not tested but in theory it would be great against the two creatures mentioned above. I honestly don't think anyone will run Citywide Bust in maindeck, ever.
Steel Leaf Champion is bad vs Rekindling Phoenix but Nullhide again dominates it.
Out of 6 matches, one starting hand had to be mulliganed down to 5 cards. There was two 1 land opening hands that was saved by Llanowar Elves. The deck I tested had 23 lands.
Edit: I noticed a neat interaction during testing.I have Deathgorge Scavenger in play. I play Steel Leaf Champion. Opponent plays Rekindling Phoenix. I play Kraul Harpooner, target phoenix. Kraul and Phoenix dies. I then attack with my Steel Leaf champion and my Deathgorge Scavenger, and I exile phoenix from the graveyard so it can't reanimate.
But they could run lava coil. Deafening Clarion is probably over valued at this point. Nullhide Ferox is a problem. not as dangerous as Rhonas but still can be dealt with.
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
I have tested a Gb list against Boros midrange (not aggro) and found an 50% winrate (only 6 matches so far).
Some observations: Turn 3 Steel Leaf into turn 4 Nullhide can't be beat. Deafening Clarion is bad against these two cards. The only way to deal with Nullhide for boros is a huge blocker in for example Ajani's Pridemate or a 6 mana Ixalan's Binding. Citywide Bust was not tested but in theory it would be great against the two creatures mentioned above. I honestly don't think anyone will run Citywide Bust in maindeck, ever.
Steel Leaf Champion is bad vs Rekindling Phoenix but Nullhide again dominates it.
Out of 6 matches, one starting hand had to be mulliganed down to 5 cards. There was two 1 land opening hands that was saved by Llanowar Elves. The deck I tested had 23 lands.
Testing IMO shouldnt go past mull to 6, results arent useful IMO.
keep up the good work after the first weekend of new standard I'll start testing to add findings here.
Some observations: Turn 3 Steel Leaf into turn 4 Nullhide can't be beat.
Rekindling Phoenix contradicts that observation though. The Phoenix is the best mid-curve creature VS Stompy as far as I know. Maybe the best creature in the format not from GRN.
These are 2 (unoptimal, obv) lists I'm testing against BG Stompy :
Yes a good curve helps, but Flyers are a notable issue. Trophy doesn't solve it, Harpooner isn't better. One key component to me is Deathgorge Scavenger, probably the better Maindeck option to deal with it. I suggest to play some over Jadelight Ranger or Thrashing Brontodon without hesitation. The lifegain is also certainly relevant.
Steel Leaf Champion is bad vs Rekindling Phoenix but Nullhide again dominates it.
This is not quite true, but it's only because the MU isn't about a creature VS another creature. If Phoenix chumps Ferox every turn, that's a problem because red decks can burn you in the meantime or stall the board and eventually win in several fashions. that's why I like Song of Freyalise : many decks can stall the board and beat Stompy, then I feel the deck needs a way to push damage through anyhow.
What do you think ?
Edit: crosspost with Stormyorky, you mentionned Scavenger as well.
Some observations: Turn 3 Steel Leaf into turn 4 Nullhide can't be beat.
Rekindling Phoenix contradicts that observation though. The Phoenix is the best mid-curve creature VS Stompy as far as I know. Maybe the best creature in the format not from GRN.
These are 2 (unoptimal, obv) lists I'm testing against BG Stompy :
Yes a good curve helps, but Flyers are a notable issue. Trophy doesn't solve it, Harpooner isn't better. One key component to me is Deathgorge Scavenger, probably the better Maindeck option to deal with it. I suggest to play some over Jadelight Ranger or Thrashing Brontodon without hesitation. The lifegain is also certainly relevant.
Steel Leaf Champion is bad vs Rekindling Phoenix but Nullhide again dominates it.
This is not quite true, but it's only because the MU isn't about a creature VS another creature. If Phoenix chumps Ferox every turn, that's a problem because red decks can burn you in the meantime or stall the board and eventually win in several fashions. that's why I like Song of Freyalise : many decks can stall the board and beat Stompy, then I feel the deck needs a way to push damage through anyhow.
What do you think ?
Edit: crosspost with Stormyorky, you mentioned Scavenger as well.
I think it all depends how it all plays out, harpooner can shot the PHX down so that SLC can attack with others, if a pelt collector is out will it eventually out grow the PHX with trample? My deck mains 2 Gorgers with 2 SB because there are going to be a lot of graveyard interactions beyond PHX, so harpooner and Gorger on T5 or later? I wouldnt say this deck isnt top tier because of that one card.
Yeah sure, btw on turn 4 you can trade SLC to PHX and play Scavenger (or Trophy) post-combat. I'm high on Scavenger with 4 copies (over maindeck Vine Mares for example) because I expect graveyard stuff to be more prevalent than I initially believed. I leave Mares and Brontodons in the SB for now, but that's all speculation over a non-existing metagame.
Nature's Way, Khenra, Rhonas, Blossoming Defense, Rampager, Oasis all rotate in a few weeks
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Thorn Lieutenant
4 Thrashing Brontodon
4 Jadelight Ranger
4 Steel Leaf Champion
3 Vine Mare
3 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
4 Blanchwood Armor
2 Vivien Reid
24 Forest
Still work on sideboard. Also, I'm not too big on Gigantosaurus.
Yeah. I've only seen a couple of decks have one in the sideboard, but still... I'm worried hehe.
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-Stay Frosty
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Pelt Collector
4 Kraul Harpooner
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Thorn Lieutenant - cards 59 and 60, additional 2 drops. Untamed Kavu instead?
4 Steel Leaf Champion
2 Thrashing Brontodon
2 Deathgorge Scavenger
4 Nullhide Ferox
1 Vine Mare
3 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
3 Assassin's Trophy
Lands - 23
12 forest - or -2 G.GG for +2 forest?
1 Swamp - against other trophies, ruins, etc.
4 woodland cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Golgari Guildgate - unsure about this. Necessary for SB cards?
2 Carnage Tyrant
2 Status // Statue
2 Vine Mare
2 Vivien Reid
1 Sentinel Totem
2 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Assassin's Trophy
SB need more work but I am REALLY liking how this color combination has so many cards against so many different threats; brontodon, Vivien, trophy and Statue can resolve artifacts and enchantments. Vivien, Harpooner, trophy and Statue against fliers (harpooner blocking flier with STATUS). Deathgorger gives angle against graveyard decks.
I dont know if Ghalta is going to be too good but we'll see. I have heard the argument about the lack of Blossoming defense but they have to have the removal and there are many other threats.
Maybe 1 or 2 Charnel Troll instead those additional 2 drops?
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Settle the Wreckage
Slaughter the Strong
Citywide Bust
Ritual of Soot
I'm starting to think Mono-green splashing black needs Duress or Sorcerous Spyglass
I don't think you want that tapland. You need to go down forests. I think you can carry 2 swamps and 11 forests.
which gives you
19 green sources
10 black sources
Beyond that deck should handle I think most of it's matchups. I might still have issues against Jeskai/Sultai control but everybody might have problems with those.
You could replace Untamed Kavu with Thorn Lieutenant
I don't think ghalta would need to be removed it's just we have some easier ways to deal with it now.
-Stay Frosty
I guess lieutenant is better, I was just think is its only a 2 of, either or.
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Charnel Troll seems not to fit, too hard to cast. With Territory though, you can go the Midnight Reaper's route and name Knight (so you can cast Steel Leaf Champion on curve). Once again, just an idea.
If white is played instead, it gives the deck Knight of Autumn (which plays around our own Ferox, in opposition to Trophy) and wrath protection via Assure // Assemble.
The mana base could not support Shaman, would never play unclaimed territory, too many creature types, couldnt play colored non-creature spells, especially games two and three when more come in. Shaman dies 100% by whirler, Branchwalker will draw you a land or prevent you from drawing what you dont want (could fuel a later game troll) and if so then survives whirler.
The idea of the troll is only as cards 59 and 60, two or one of, and would be played later in the game when the yard has creatures in it and you need those extra points of damage. Troll could discard late game collectors and llanowar elves to continue to grow. By turn 6-8 I think I would have come across a black mana to cast it. if you untap with troll you could have it at a 6/6 with trample by discarding a creature, then thats one creatures to be able to cast a freshly draw Ghalta or on that was rotting in your hand.
Idea anyway.
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Ferox stops you from casting non-creature spells before Territory does.
Ok, but it's a slot you wanted to force in place of the Thorn Lieutenants, which are real turn-2 plays. I believe it's more important to ensure a nice curve rather than a possible dead card in your hand in the early game. That late in the game, wouldn't you prefer Underrealm Lich ? Carnage Tyrant ? Would they fit in Lieutenant slots or elsewhere after all ?
The Troll is tempting to grow Collector but I doubt it works outside of a graveyard-based strategy.
What do you think of a list like that :
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Pelt Collector
4 Kraul Harpooner
4 Thorn Lieutenant
4 Steel Leaf Champion
3 Thrashing Brontodon
4 Nullhide Ferox
2 Underrealm Lich
2 Carnage Tyrant
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Song of Freyalise
Lands - 23:
13 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
I did cut Ghalta, Branchwalker and Scavenger only to visualize other worthwhile cards. Scavenger is in if graveyard decks make an impact, Ghalta is rather bad if control takes the cake, so those 2 cards (Brontodon as well) are mostly meta calls. Branchwalker helps with the mana but Song of Freyalise may be a strong sleeper card, which helps splashing and gives evasion to big fatties that are pretty easily "chumpable".
Dont ignore 'Territory' not being able to cast all creatures in addition to other constraints.
I like the point of a better card later game then the troll.
Thoughts on your list:
I'll take the 4 branch walkers over thorn Lieutenants right now, my hot thought is enabling a stronger ETB trigger from the Harpooner not only to fight other larger fliers but also to help cast Ghalta faster,(im aware of harpooner dying if fight happens not enabling Ghalta, choice to be made there.) like Resilient Khenra providing 4 power at ETB. Thats only because I want to run ghalta until its bad.
2nd swamp necessary? well in your list yea due to the lich.
I would like to test it.
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Standard
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Useful more than necessary ? I don't have the math in my head, and Song fixes the mana for Trophy (or whatever is splashed). I want all my sources untapped, from there I know 2 swamps don't hurt Steel Leaf openings too much, it's still a safe manabase.
That makes total sense.
Are you forgetting about Kraul Harpooner?
IMO, best 2 drops are: Kraul, B.Dub (B.W., Merfolk Branchwalker) then Leiutenant
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Harpooner can block all three of those creatures you mentioned, Leiutenant and BW can not. Unless you want to take the deck in a direction that doesnt cast Ghalta, you want that extra power, especially if you can get it to come into play as 4 or 5.
Thankfully this discussion made me realize the interaction of Harpooner trading with a flier, removing a blocker, then potentially triggering Pelt collector.
Harpooners also 'feed themselves' in this manner; dying for the next one to be stronger.
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Standard
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It seems like high synergy with a high creature count.
Some observations: Turn 3 Steel Leaf into turn 4 Nullhide can't be beat. Deafening Clarion is bad against these two cards. The only way to deal with Nullhide for boros is a huge blocker in for example Ajani's Pridemate or a 6 mana Ixalan's Binding. Citywide Bust was not tested but in theory it would be great against the two creatures mentioned above. I honestly don't think anyone will run Citywide Bust in maindeck, ever.
Steel Leaf Champion is bad vs Rekindling Phoenix but Nullhide again dominates it.
Out of 6 matches, one starting hand had to be mulliganed down to 5 cards. There was two 1 land opening hands that was saved by Llanowar Elves. The deck I tested had 23 lands.
Edit: I noticed a neat interaction during testing.I have Deathgorge Scavenger in play. I play Steel Leaf Champion. Opponent plays Rekindling Phoenix. I play Kraul Harpooner, target phoenix. Kraul and Phoenix dies. I then attack with my Steel Leaf champion and my Deathgorge Scavenger, and I exile phoenix from the graveyard so it can't reanimate.
-Stay Frosty
Testing IMO shouldnt go past mull to 6, results arent useful IMO.
keep up the good work after the first weekend of new standard I'll start testing to add findings here.
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Standard
GRAggro
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GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Rekindling Phoenix contradicts that observation though. The Phoenix is the best mid-curve creature VS Stompy as far as I know. Maybe the best creature in the format not from GRN.
These are 2 (unoptimal, obv) lists I'm testing against BG Stompy :
4 Rekindling Phoenix
4 Guttersnipe
4 Electrostatic Field
2 Sonic Assault
4 Discovery // Dispersal
4 Radical Idea
4 Lightning Strike
4 Lava Coil
4 Shock
4 Rekindling Phoenix
3 Aurelia, Exemplar of Justice
3 Tajic, Legion's Edge
4 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Knight of Grace
4 Torch Courier
4 Fanatical Firebrand
4 Integrity//Intervention
4 Lightning Strike
Yes a good curve helps, but Flyers are a notable issue. Trophy doesn't solve it, Harpooner isn't better. One key component to me is Deathgorge Scavenger, probably the better Maindeck option to deal with it. I suggest to play some over Jadelight Ranger or Thrashing Brontodon without hesitation. The lifegain is also certainly relevant.
This is not quite true, but it's only because the MU isn't about a creature VS another creature. If Phoenix chumps Ferox every turn, that's a problem because red decks can burn you in the meantime or stall the board and eventually win in several fashions. that's why I like Song of Freyalise : many decks can stall the board and beat Stompy, then I feel the deck needs a way to push damage through anyhow.
What do you think ?
Edit: crosspost with Stormyorky, you mentionned Scavenger as well.
I think it all depends how it all plays out, harpooner can shot the PHX down so that SLC can attack with others, if a pelt collector is out will it eventually out grow the PHX with trample? My deck mains 2 Gorgers with 2 SB because there are going to be a lot of graveyard interactions beyond PHX, so harpooner and Gorger on T5 or later? I wouldnt say this deck isnt top tier because of that one card.
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Standard
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GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
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Midnight Reaper was discussed a bit, it can be a sleeper card, but it also fights with Shapers' Sanctuary, way easier on the mana.
What is people's experience with PWs off the SB while we're also playing Feroxen ? Vivien Reid seems playable but Big Vraska, a tad less so...