@hoser2, I actually love the explore deck, but I don't have the stones to take it into competitive battle. I think the deck has some legs. I just feel like UW and UB wreck it. I guess we can't win 'em all.
What I am saying is that if we have a tier 0 deck (lumping all the noncontrol 'whirlers together), the grinders will play it and master the mirror. As a hobbyist, I can't really compete on that axis, but it gives me a target. Grinders pretty much have to play the best deck or something that beats it. Yeah, there may be 20% of the field that is running Fumigate and I can't get better than 40-45% postboard against it. But that's better odds than I face in a wide open field.
I 3-0ed at FNM level with this. The explore creatures are good. Good enough? I'll try to find out.
soul-scar mage is annoying because it can erode some of our best defensive(4+ toughness) cards in Brontodon & Harvester to no longer brick their team on curve and the weenies keep coming in. I'm being generous with the term 'weenies'; most 2 drops they have are Kari Zev or a Scrounger.
not really sure where to go. my March 1-build some pages back was slanted towards aggro matchups
basically it curves out turn 1 hand removal Duress/Harsh Scrutiny, turn 2 Gifted Aetherborn turn 3 Rishkar, Peema Renegadeand that should keep your life out of the single digits
the R/B doesn't have a lot for raw card advantage outside a couple Chandra, so it's an attrition game
we seem to be getting pushed away from playing the snek deck we want to play, it might work to include something like midnight oil which is something they can't remove and should do the heavy lifting and keep your hand full of all those Contempts.(figurative and literal)
i dont think something like midnight oil would remedy mono red matchup.
a bit confused because mono red used to be our best matchup and they only gain goblin chainwhirler from dominaria.
i think the main reason we are losing to mono red is because people are skimping on removal mainly fatal push.
maybe we need to bring back longtusk cub (far stretch but the cub used to be extremely good against red decks) into the mix and need to be more aware of the soul-scar mage + goblin chainwhirler. also cut down on one toughness creature (llanowar elves, glint-sleeve siphoner) and bring back bristling hydra to the mainboard.
@hoser2, I actually love the explore deck, but I don't have the stones to take it into competitive battle. I think the deck has some legs. I just feel like UW and UB wreck it. I guess we can't win 'em all.
What I am saying is that if we have a tier 0 deck (lumping all the noncontrol 'whirlers together), the grinders will play it and master the mirror. As a hobbyist, I can't really compete on that axis, but it gives me a target. Grinders pretty much have to play the best deck or something that beats it. Yeah, there may be 20% of the field that is running Fumigate and I can't get better than 40-45% postboard against it. But that's better odds than I face in a wide open field.
I 3-0ed at FNM level with this. The explore creatures are good. Good enough? I'll try to find out.
I understood what you're aiming for the first time. What I'm trying to point out is that even though day 2 and the top 8 made it appear that world was drowning in R/X decks, there were other decks that did reasonably well just on their Standard records (Esper control variants in particular). That's why I'm not completely sold on RB midrange being THE deck right now. I actually want to see more tournaments following this pro tour.
In any case, I still love the explore deck, and I'm hoping you will you have some amazing results to report back.
i dont think something like midnight oil would remedy mono red matchup.
a bit confused because mono red used to be our best matchup and they only gain goblin chainwhirler from dominaria.
i think the main reason we are losing to mono red is because people are skimping on removal mainly fatal push.
maybe we need to bring back longtusk cub (far stretch but the cub used to be extremely good against red decks) into the mix and need to be more aware of the soul-scar mage + goblin chainwhirler. also cut down on one toughness creature (llanowar elves, glint-sleeve siphoner) and bring back bristling hydra to the mainboard.
This is what I've been saying for three weeks now. Planeswalkers/Aggro both have issues with the Hydra. Fatal push was only 'not great' when the U/W control deck is rampant. I'll always hedge my deck to beat red pre-board and control post board. I already have gas to beat control w/o adding, let alone after.
Elves are fine tho. If they waste a removal nuke on those, its good cause next turn a 2/3 snake or any other 2 drop is coming down thats more of a must kill. If he gets a block on a bomat, awesome. Just have to save the answer for whirler's FS and the typical 4 drops. It isn't a bad matchup for us if we still have the pushes in main.
Yeah I’m thinking of going down on a few copies of the chupacabra 4>2 and maybe going a 2/2 split of Defense and Impulse to up my fatal pushes to 4. I think a bigger threat than Chainwhirler is to get rid of the Soul-Scar mage, since with the snek out, it absolutely wrecks our board. And I fully agree with bringing some Hydras in. This is all at least while RB is top dog.
Ideally I'd pull a Fatal Push for my opening hand to start hamstringing red's tempo. I ran some test hands and I like what I see so far. I'll let you all know how it plays next FNM I go to.
To answer the red flyers, I'm thinking Crushing Canopy. Answers Heart, Glorybringer, Flame of Keld, half-answers Phoenix; answers Cast Out, Seal Away, Search. I'd play this in a Climb deck splashing for Constrictor and Push.
You can also try plummet, but it's narrower, can't be run main. 3CMC is not too much to answer Glorybringer. Cast Down is your other option, but that has limits also.
So, how is everybody coping? My current experience has been limited to online games where is almost exclusively encounter Rx of UWx control. Both matchups are hard, but the latter is terrible.
I for one am staying on Blossoming Defense main, but I can still use some guidance on how to beat the rediculous amount of removal and sweeper power UWx has.
Would going back to blue and loading the sideboard up on Negate/Spell Pierce be any good?
4x Duress is a good start. Cast on turn 4 to take out Settle the Wreckage so you can attack unhindered. If you go blue, use Negate to counter only Settle, Fumigate or Teferi (if you can't immediately kill him). Spell Pierce isn't reliable in this context.
And play all the card draw you can fit. Glint, Lifecrafter's Bestiary, Shaper's Sanctuary, whatever's in your decklist.
So, how is everybody coping? My current experience has been limited to online games where is almost exclusively encounter Rx of UWx control. Both matchups are hard, but the latter is terrible.
I for one am staying on Blossoming Defense main, but I can still use some guidance on how to beat the rediculous amount of removal and sweeper power UWx has.
I've been doing okay. Those particular matches are a struggle. I have a real hard time against control, but if I get a good draw, I can stay competitive with red. Keep in mind I've been running the deck on Magic Arena, in one-match games, with no chance to sideboard. So, if I do hit a control deck, I don't have the Duress to throw in. Still, I've increased my removal (running 3x Vraska's Contempt and 3x Fatal Push and added back 3x Blossoming Defense, which has worked really well. Constrictor seems like it's in a tough place currently, just trying to power through.
I finally took the all-in Sultai Explore deck out to Monday Night Magic. The deck did fine, going 3-1. It beat a dinosaur deck, a Saproling deck and a more conventional Sultai Sneck deck while losing to Rb Midrange. Ironically, the Rb loss was the most encouraging result. With a slightly better draw, it was winnable and it was the most skilled opponent. With a few tweaks to the deck and sideboard, the chances would have been even better.
Here is what I took:
I want to replace some Pushes with Cast Down and the Explore creatures all emptied out of my hand before I could play Path of Discovery, so that's a slot I want back. It seems good enough to test more. Maybe I'll build it on MTG Arena. That is infested with 'whirlers.
That's awesome. I might summon the stones to run an explore deck soon. I am curious why you chose Sultai over Gokgari though.
The original design concept was rope-a-dope. I hold the 'whirler decks off with enough lifegain and big enough blockers to survive Hazoret, then grind them out with reanimation. I just want to get more testing in before I give up on it.
I play a lot of decks, though. I would trust A_E's opinion, as someone who plays the deck every week, over mine. Further, the data from last night points to Golgari being better. I played Hostage Taker effectively against Saprolings, but another Chupacabra would have been nearly as good. In general, I think Chupacabra is better against public enemy #1. There were times when I needed another B source, so the mana hurt. I never cast Muldrotha. I cast The Scarab God thrice: once I lost anyway and the other time it was win more. Another Verdurous Gearhulk would have been better last night. I want to test Sultai more in paper, but I would already recommend that you go Golgari. Abzan is also interesting, as I love Shalai, but Golgari seems safest.
Due to the Arena economy, I will probably go Golgari there, as I hate spending wildcards on land.
Yea, Muldrotha is more of a win more usually.
I did win last week with a hydra build but i did notice that i was behind a lot of games and wouldn't have won without a bestiary in play. I really wanna splash white like Smaug(i think) did for shalai and my own flavor...profane procession in the side.
My shop has become nearly 100% R aggro or R/b Aggro. Maybe one or two guys play control but they just aren't good control players so you can usually steal games you otherwise wouldn't.
Woo-hoo! Small sample size and tons of luck, but I built a budget version of Golgari Explore Constrictor on MTG Arena. 7-0 (8-0 if I count an opponent timeout) in Bo1 so far including 2-3 R or Rb.
Yea, Muldrotha is more of a win more usually.
I did win last week with a hydra build but i did notice that i was behind a lot of games and wouldn't have won without a bestiary in play. I really wanna splash white like Smaug(i think) did for shalai and my own flavor...profane procession in the side.
Apart from some online testing, i've not had a lot of games with the white splash. I've never sleeved up the GBw deck (while i have the parts). I guess i'm not really convinced by my own idea and am favoring the consistency of straight GB. The banning of Attune with Aether has been very hard on the manabase.
The premise of running Aethergeode Miner either main or from the board against UWx control looks pretty good though.
My shop has become nearly 100% R aggro or R/b Aggro. Maybe one or two guys play control but they just aren't good control players so you can usually steal games you otherwise wouldn't.
How is a deck without Bristling Hydra working out for you? You've gone a lot lower on the energy theme from the looks of it.
How is Llanowar Elves been for you? Is it worth the risk of dying without any value over Servant of the Conduit? Also, What is your best turn two play after an elf? I have a stark feeling the deck is more top heavy (4 drops over 3drops) and thus Servant would fit better.
The maindeck inclusion of Aethersphere Harvester looks like a wise one too. Might give that a go too.
I'm changing the lineup pretty much every day, trying to find something that works trough the enormous amounts of removal and fat beats from the current top decks.
I've swapped out all copies of Merfolk Branchwalker for Seekers' Squire for some more defensive strength and for not dying to chainwhirler damage. This works out pretty good thusfar. I'm also back on Blossoming Defense main. Though i'm not sure if three copies is too much.
Edit: More Arena testing. My budget Golgari Explore version is having trouble with control, but overall positive and positive against 'whirlers so far.
Edit 2: Yeah. No constrictors, but the full 16 explore creatures seem viable in this instance.
my current list has no Constrictors as well
but the full boat of Steel leaf Champion and Brontodons as well as Gifted Aetherborn
that gordy list definitely looks like a maindeck Bestiary candidate
Played Jeff Cunningham's list today against Esper Control and got pretty completely destroyed. Not having exile removal (save for the one post sideboard) is atrocious when they land Scarab God in general, especially on the draw.
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I 3-0ed at FNM level with this. The explore creatures are good. Good enough? I'll try to find out.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
not really sure where to go. my March 1-build some pages back was slanted towards aggro matchups
basically it curves out turn 1 hand removal Duress/Harsh Scrutiny, turn 2 Gifted Aetherborn turn 3 Rishkar, Peema Renegadeand that should keep your life out of the single digits
the R/B doesn't have a lot for raw card advantage outside a couple Chandra, so it's an attrition game
we seem to be getting pushed away from playing the snek deck we want to play, it might work to include something like midnight oil which is something they can't remove and should do the heavy lifting and keep your hand full of all those Contempts.(figurative and literal)
a bit confused because mono red used to be our best matchup and they only gain goblin chainwhirler from dominaria.
i think the main reason we are losing to mono red is because people are skimping on removal mainly fatal push.
maybe we need to bring back longtusk cub (far stretch but the cub used to be extremely good against red decks) into the mix and need to be more aware of the soul-scar mage + goblin chainwhirler. also cut down on one toughness creature (llanowar elves, glint-sleeve siphoner) and bring back bristling hydra to the mainboard.
I understood what you're aiming for the first time. What I'm trying to point out is that even though day 2 and the top 8 made it appear that world was drowning in R/X decks, there were other decks that did reasonably well just on their Standard records (Esper control variants in particular). That's why I'm not completely sold on RB midrange being THE deck right now. I actually want to see more tournaments following this pro tour.
In any case, I still love the explore deck, and I'm hoping you will you have some amazing results to report back.
This is what I've been saying for three weeks now. Planeswalkers/Aggro both have issues with the Hydra. Fatal push was only 'not great' when the U/W control deck is rampant. I'll always hedge my deck to beat red pre-board and control post board. I already have gas to beat control w/o adding, let alone after.
Elves are fine tho. If they waste a removal nuke on those, its good cause next turn a 2/3 snake or any other 2 drop is coming down thats more of a must kill. If he gets a block on a bomat, awesome. Just have to save the answer for whirler's FS and the typical 4 drops. It isn't a bad matchup for us if we still have the pushes in main.
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Winding Constrictor
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Jadelight Ranger
4 Bristling Hydra
Land
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Aether Hub
2 Ifnir Deadlands
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Swamp
7 Forest
4 Walking Ballista
2 Aethersphere Harvester
3 Verdurous Gearhulk
Instant
4 Fatal Push
2 Vraska's Contempt
3 Thrashing Brontodon
2 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Naturalize
4 Duress
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
With the current meta being so heavy on red aggro, this is pretty much what I am looking to roll with.
Any comments or suggestions?
3CMC though... to me that seems borderline or a bit on the slow side.
crushing canopy is the premier green/black SB enchant hate card atm. Hits every card we can't handle...every one.
Lyra, heart, harvester dragon, phoenix, white enchantments, eldest reborn history. all the good cards. at instant speed.
It's definitely you SB card...and has been for a few months now.
I for one am staying on Blossoming Defense main, but I can still use some guidance on how to beat the rediculous amount of removal and sweeper power UWx has.
Would going back to blue and loading the sideboard up on Negate/Spell Pierce be any good?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
And play all the card draw you can fit. Glint, Lifecrafter's Bestiary, Shaper's Sanctuary, whatever's in your decklist.
I've been doing okay. Those particular matches are a struggle. I have a real hard time against control, but if I get a good draw, I can stay competitive with red. Keep in mind I've been running the deck on Magic Arena, in one-match games, with no chance to sideboard. So, if I do hit a control deck, I don't have the Duress to throw in. Still, I've increased my removal (running 3x Vraska's Contempt and 3x Fatal Push and added back 3x Blossoming Defense, which has worked really well. Constrictor seems like it's in a tough place currently, just trying to power through.
Here is what I took:
4 Wildgrowth Walker
4 Seekers' Squire
4 Winding Constrictor
1 Hostage Taker
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
4 Jadelight Ranger
1 The Scarab God
1 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Enchantment
1 Path of Discovery
Land
4 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Aether Hub
4 Fetid Pools
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Walking Ballista
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
Instant
2 Fatal Push
2 Vraska's Contempt
Sorcery
2 Adventurous Impulse
Planeswalker
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Blossoming Defense
1 Fatal Push
1 Heroic Intervention
2 Vraska's Contempt
1 Negate
2 Duress
I want to replace some Pushes with Cast Down and the Explore creatures all emptied out of my hand before I could play Path of Discovery, so that's a slot I want back. It seems good enough to test more. Maybe I'll build it on MTG Arena. That is infested with 'whirlers.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I play a lot of decks, though. I would trust A_E's opinion, as someone who plays the deck every week, over mine. Further, the data from last night points to Golgari being better. I played Hostage Taker effectively against Saprolings, but another Chupacabra would have been nearly as good. In general, I think Chupacabra is better against public enemy #1. There were times when I needed another B source, so the mana hurt. I never cast Muldrotha. I cast The Scarab God thrice: once I lost anyway and the other time it was win more. Another Verdurous Gearhulk would have been better last night. I want to test Sultai more in paper, but I would already recommend that you go Golgari. Abzan is also interesting, as I love Shalai, but Golgari seems safest.
Due to the Arena economy, I will probably go Golgari there, as I hate spending wildcards on land.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I did win last week with a hydra build but i did notice that i was behind a lot of games and wouldn't have won without a bestiary in play. I really wanna splash white like Smaug(i think) did for shalai and my own flavor...profane procession in the side.
My shop has become nearly 100% R aggro or R/b Aggro. Maybe one or two guys play control but they just aren't good control players so you can usually steal games you otherwise wouldn't.
4x winding constrictor
4x glint-sleeve siphoner
2x verdurous gearhulk
3x ravenous chupacabra
2x thrashing brontodon
2x rishkar, peeme renegade
4x llanowar elves
3x walking ballista
2x gonti, lord of luxury
artifacts: (2)
2x aethersphere harvester
1x vraska, relic seeker
other junk: (8)
3x adventurous impulse
2x fatal push
3x vraska's contempt
lands: (23)
4x aether hub
4x woodland cemetery
4x blooming marsh
2x ifnir deadlands
2x hashep oasis
4x swamp
3x forest
1x thrashing brontodon
2x lifecrafter's bestiary
4x duress
1x fatal push
2x crushing canopy
1x vraska, relic seeker
1x nissa, vital force
1x liliana, death's majesty
2x cast down
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Apart from some online testing, i've not had a lot of games with the white splash. I've never sleeved up the GBw deck (while i have the parts). I guess i'm not really convinced by my own idea and am favoring the consistency of straight GB. The banning of Attune with Aether has been very hard on the manabase.
The premise of running Aethergeode Miner either main or from the board against UWx control looks pretty good though.
How is a deck without Bristling Hydra working out for you? You've gone a lot lower on the energy theme from the looks of it.
How is Llanowar Elves been for you? Is it worth the risk of dying without any value over Servant of the Conduit? Also, What is your best turn two play after an elf? I have a stark feeling the deck is more top heavy (4 drops over 3drops) and thus Servant would fit better.
The maindeck inclusion of Aethersphere Harvester looks like a wise one too. Might give that a go too.
I'm changing the lineup pretty much every day, trying to find something that works trough the enormous amounts of removal and fat beats from the current top decks.
I've swapped out all copies of Merfolk Branchwalker for Seekers' Squire for some more defensive strength and for not dying to chainwhirler damage. This works out pretty good thusfar. I'm also back on Blossoming Defense main. Though i'm not sure if three copies is too much.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
3 Champion of Wits
3 Hostage Taker
4 Jadelight Ranger
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Seekers' Squire
4 The Scarab God
3 Thrashing Brontodon
4 Wildgrowth Walker
4 Adventurous Impulse
Land
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Botanical Sanctum
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Fetid Pools
4 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Champion of Wits
1 Hostage Taker
1 Thrashing Brontodon
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
3 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
2 Noxious Gearhulk
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Vizier of Many Faces
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Edit: More Arena testing. My budget Golgari Explore version is having trouble with control, but overall positive and positive against 'whirlers so far.
Edit 2: Yeah. No constrictors, but the full 16 explore creatures seem viable in this instance.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
but the full boat of Steel leaf Champion and Brontodons as well as Gifted Aetherborn
that gordy list definitely looks like a maindeck Bestiary candidate
Played Jeff Cunningham's list today against Esper Control and got pretty completely destroyed. Not having exile removal (save for the one post sideboard) is atrocious when they land Scarab God in general, especially on the draw.