One each of Murderous Rider and Acclaimed Contender were removed for two of Foulmire Knight; he's just a good little man even if his Adventure never seems to come into play.
Corpse Knight still does a great deal of work for me as does Worthy Knight. I drew a hand with one Corpse and three Worthy Knights last time out. Trigger, trigger, trigger, trigger - it got silly.
Smitten Swordmaster or, rather, Curry Favor hasn't had any big moments in the last few outings but it still does some work. Order of Midnight is always value even if he can't block Rankle, Master of Pranks. :(.
Blacklance Paragon has been mostly a Flash creature lately - not too exciting. There's too many weird decks that aren't interested in combat, it seems.
Contender is solid but but with the extra Reapers, something had to go. One Rider went to the side-board but he may not stay there.
Midnight Reaper is a good man; I have added two more. I need to remember the life gain from Kaya's Wrath next time.
The Castles are probably excessive; I probably should go down one on Ardenvale or both.
The Disfigures have seemed inadequate lately. The removal in this format seems pathetic. I will experiment with some of the W janky looking stuff I guess. I hate to bring in three-CMC kill spells and there aren't enough of them it seems. Rider is just not really good enough if he isn't taking out a Planeswalker.
The board is a still a work in progress. Kaya is a good girl and I will add a second copy. I like Kaya's Vengence and its value should increase with the extra Reapers. Duress is probably needed but I find I don't often want to trade a knight for it. I find I rarely want to trade a Knight for any non-creature card. I am going to add some number of Noxious Grasp and I will eventually get a couple copies of Legion's End.
The two biggest issues I have is three+ CMC creatures that have evasion or just don't attack, such as Rankle. The Oven-Cat combo is a nuisance as well. Kaya can help with it. Lucky Clover is another weak point; I've just got nothing for it. Disenchant in the board is not appealing.
After the Mardu debacle, I trimmed the R entirely and picked up a few more cards for BW. Obviously, this is still a little low-budget, but it's getting there.
The most obvious need: Two more copies of Knight of the Ebon Hand. This is a good little man!
The mana needs some more work; I had to make do a bit as I slapped things together in the store before the tournament. Some more Tournament Grounds will be added, but I don't want to cut off the possibility of casting Swift End on curve. Well, as close as possible. Castle Locthwain is probably a better bet than Ardenvale and I've ordered a copy of the former. Whether I play both or not has not yet been determined.
Worthy Knight and Corpse Knight do pair reasonably well, but it's slow and it isn't really putting power on the board quickly. I'm still not sure which to cast first! I'm tempted to try more copies of Smitten Swordmaster and Order of Midnight instead as these guys can do some work; the life gain from Swordmaster can really help and reloading is always good.
Given how badly mono-R thrashed this pile, I'm under no delusions that it's competitive or nearly so. But I did win half of my games. I played Golos, and stole a game with Witch's Vengeance and a miss play on his part allowing me to pump KotEL to get lethal. I played an Artifacts brew and won both games; the first was a grinder but the second was smooth sailing as he never got off two mana despite several cantrips.
The W one-drop will probably get the old heave-ho as I want to shift the mana a little twoards B to improve the odds of a first turn, untapped B source. Deathtouch is not useless, but I still haven't gotten a card off of Profane Insight, so I don't know if he will stick around or not.
Kaya is dubious as well; somehow I imagined her -1 was more useful than it is. She might go to the side-board though, as life gain can still be useful.
Duress came in often as did Witch's Vengeance - there were Field of the Dead in two matches - but the rest of the side-board is subject to change. I'm especially doubtful of Deafening Silence in Standard.
Any good advice is always welcome; don't play Knights in Standard is probably the best advice, but I'm going to keep at it, at least until the spoiler of the next set proves it hopeless.
You need Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord in this list. He's probably standard's strongest Orzhov card at the moment because he does so many useful things. He turns the tide against aggro decks. He generates a stream of card advantage against midrange and control. He picks off Teferi, Time Raveler. His sheer lifegain capacity also lets you swap Smitten Swordmaster for something a little more impactful.
I notice that you're also missing a few great knights in this list. Blacklance Paragon is a 3/1 with flash at worst and is "1B: Destroy target Questing Beast. You gain 3 life." at best. Midnight Reaper is a strong source of value that makes it easier for you to recover from sweepers.
You might also want some sort of powerful top-end card. Cavalier of Night provides some great value and is a fantastic Sorin target after an uptick. Gruesome Menagerie is a board in a can for a tribe with some powerful low-CMC creatures. Harmonious Archon is a ten-power windmill slam that will sometimes shrink your opponent's board while never weakening your own.
You need Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord in this list. He's probably standard's strongest Orzhov card at the moment because he does so many useful things. He turns the tide against aggro decks. He generates a stream of card advantage against midrange and control. He picks off Teferi, Time Raveler. His sheer lifegain capacity also lets you swap Smitten Swordmaster for something a little more impactful.
I notice that you're also missing a few great knights in this list. Blacklance Paragon is a 3/1 with flash at worst and is "1B: Destroy target Questing Beast. You gain 3 life." at best. Midnight Reaper is a strong source of value that makes it easier for you to recover from sweepers.
You might also want some sort of powerful top-end card. Cavalier of Night provides some great value and is a fantastic Sorin target after an uptick. Gruesome Menagerie is a board in a can for a tribe with some powerful low-CMC creatures. Harmonious Archon is a ten-power windmill slam that will sometimes shrink your opponent's board while never weakening your own.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply!
Sorin has been on the radar. I agree that he should be added; probably as a two-of. A four-drop isn't going to help against mono-R so I'll have to think about other sources of life gain. Curry Favor is a pretty cheap way of doing some damage as well as gaining some life and having a creature to boot.
I haven't come across any copies of Black Lance Paragon yet. As I said, it's still a little on the low-budget side, but I have thought about him, he seems like a good man. I've got a copy of Midnight Reaper and I've considered him; I do love some card-draw.
I'm leery of five-drops but I agree the decks needs something with some grunt. I've never noticed Gruesome Menagerie. It's potential is strong, but I'd hate to draw that in my opener.
Sorin is a good bet; I'll definitely round up a copy or two, I had already checked and he's not too expensive. Adding Blacklance probably means a more substantial rework but that's probably what this deck needs. I can work in a single Reaper by cutting more of the junk; I don't really know what I was thinking playing that ridiculous Mace. I actually do know what I was thinking but it was wishful thinking.
Every decklist I've seen online - all both of them! - for Orzhov Knights doesn't run any main-deck removal. There's no way those decks can compete with Boros or mono-R decks. The removal available for B seems to - what's the word I'm looking for? - oh yeah, SUCK. I suppose Blacklance would shore that up a bit, but it isn't going to help against first- or double-strikers which appear to be a thing in Standard today.
The irony of someone with a list of Modern decks like mine worrying about the cost of rarely played Standard rares is not lost on me, but circumstances have changed.
Sorin has been on the radar. I agree that he should be added; probably as a two-of. A four-drop isn't going to help against mono-R so I'll have to think about other sources of life gain. Curry Favor is a pretty cheap way of doing some damage as well as gaining some life and having a creature to boot.
I think you're underestimating how red decks can crumble before giving your whole team lifelink. Unless your opponent has Tibalt or you have very few creatures, your opponent will likely have to deal with Sorin immediately to not fall behind, buying you plenty of valuable time. If aggro is still a problem, I would recommend Disfigure in the main or side to pick off some early threats.
Sorin has been on the radar. I agree that he should be added; probably as a two-of. A four-drop isn't going to help against mono-R so I'll have to think about other sources of life gain. Curry Favor is a pretty cheap way of doing some damage as well as gaining some life and having a creature to boot.
I think you're underestimating how red decks can crumble before giving your whole team lifelink. Unless your opponent has Tibalt or you have very few creatures, your opponent will likely have to deal with Sorin immediately to not fall behind, buying you plenty of valuable time. If aggro is still a problem, I would recommend Disfigure in the main or side to pick off some early threats.
Disfigure x4 is already main, plus a few other removal spells.
Two copies of Sorin are on the way along with four copies of Blacklance. The latter can replace some of the main-deck removal, but he won't help against pumped, double-striking tramplers.
We'll certainly see if Sorin can get there fast enough to save some games. I appreciate you taking the time to give some advice. It's sad to see this community dying while people are screwing around on Facebook which is an awful format for discussing Magic.
Sorin should hopefully help stabilize against aggro and Burn. Blacklance will help against most fatties. Blacklance in the list increases the value of Order of Midnight, so one additional copy of the latter has been added. One Reaper has been added and the mana has been tuned ever so slightly. I don't care much for Scoured Barrens, but Tournament Grounds won't produce B under some key circumstances.
At this point I've half a mind to ditch the W and go mono-B. It would make the investment in those Fabled Passages seem unwise but c'est la vie.
Okay, so the StarCity builds were tuned to beat Golos decks with Field of the Dead. . . That's to an extent obvious I suppose. I guess I still have an issue with my Tribalism though.
Most of the new cards arrived, I'm still waiting for two KotEL. This is what I played Friday:
The deck is tremendously improved. I won all four matches and the tournament.
The first match was the same artifact build I beat last week. It's just a little too slow; He did win the second game on the play.
The second match was the mono-R deck that steamrolled me last week but with a different player. The first game was close, but I stabiilzed, killed everything and got there. He did draw a prodigious number of lands. The second game was uneventful.
The third match was a Oko brew. It used Dreadhorde Invasion and he used Oko to turn the armies into buffed Elk. There was very little combat damage dealt in the game and that was by Order of Midnight. Most of the damage came from Corpse Knight and his own Dreadhorde although he used a liberal amount of Food tokens through the course of the game. The game winner was Curry Favor - for ten! I had deathtouchers and chumps for forever but he had some beefy guys so we sat there and I churned out Humans off of Worthy Knight and got value off of Adventures. Foulmire Knight is a good man in a match-up like this. Gets the job done and is easy to get back into play with Alter Fate. We finished the game just about at the time limit, so game-two was inconclusive.
The last match was a brew that used Corpse Knight, Cruel Celebrant, Midnight Reaper and numerous X-casting cost creatures plus Forever Young to restock. The first game it worked perfectly and he drew way too many cards to keep up with. The second game Kaya came in from the board and hosed him hard starting on turn-three and eventually finished him off with her ultimate. Game three he started with Leyline of Sanctity but I didn't draw any of the planeswalkers so it didn't really cut off anything but Curry Favor. My little fellows just managed to get in the beats.
Blacklance Paragon was very impactful and really may be better than Murderous Rider - at least in Standard. Sorin never really had a chance to show what he could do; I cast him only once and it was near the end of an already won game. Disfigure never felt bad and never sat in my hand.
Outside of one stellar effort by Kaya, the side-board really didn't make any contribution. Some work remains to be done there.
The KotEL is probably all-around better than Foulmire, but Foulmire is a good little man even if I still haven't got a card off of his adventure. I am also reluctant to cut Swordmaster or Order of Midnight. The deck is able to compete basically by generating value with the Adventures plus a little draw from Acclaimed Contender. Blacklance's EtB ability is about as good as an Adventure as well. Both Castles made a contribution as well. The B castle is better, in my view, but the W castle is usable and the drawback isn't significant.
A big closer would still be groovy, but Rotting Regisaur is probably not the guy without something like Embercleave to make it get through. Embercleave would likely be well-worth adding, but that's another story for another thread.
The deck is tremendously improved. I won all four matches and the tournament.
Congratulations, that's impressive. Corpse Knight is a really cool card that I didn't consider myself, so I'm considering running it over Wintermoor Commander. Commander is a fine card in many aspects, but it sometimes doesn't feel impactful enough.
I'm taking my own Orzhov Knights brew to a big MCQ this weekend, so the news that another player is succeeding with the deck, especially versus Oko, is heartening.
The deck is tremendously improved. I won all four matches and the tournament.
Congratulations, that's impressive. Corpse Knight is a really cool card that I didn't consider myself, so I'm considering running it over Wintermoor Commander. Commander is a fine card in many aspects, but it sometimes doesn't feel impactful enough.
I'm taking my own Orzhov Knights brew to a big MCQ this weekend, so the news that another player is succeeding with the deck, especially versus Oko, is heartening.
Thank you!
I dropped Swift Ends on three or four creatures during the course of that game, completely forgetting that it can hit planeswalkers! DOH!
Corpse Knight and Worthy Knight are a team; I don't think I would play one without the other. Castle Ardenvale is also a good fit with Corpse guy. I may dump both and test something different. This bunch has accomplished all they can with me.
The thought has occurred to me that twenty-four lands just might be too many - even if one is a Blast Zone. What are you running? Are you running anything over three-CMC?
Good luck at the MCQ, my results should be taken with a grain of salt; it was just a LGS FNM. Still, I'm proud of my little Knights.
The thought has occurred to me that twenty-four lands just might be too many - even if one is a Blast Zone. What are you running? Are you running anything over three-CMC?
The thought has occurred to me that twenty-four lands just might be too many - even if one is a Blast Zone. What are you running? Are you running anything over three-CMC?
I think you are right to play more than one B Castle - four seems extreme to me but I'm not judging - and two of Ardendale is probably okay. I will add some more of these if I run across them. My mana is still not completely correct but Standard mana is a little rough right now.
Six-drops seem awfully ambitious, but I have certainly played some games where I've gotten to six mana but many games just don't. I'm interested to hear how this plays out for you. Does the Archon make Witch's Vengeance more appealing for the side-board?
The Blast Zone may be a bad call, especially since I've no way to remove that token. Some copies of Legion's End are probably indicated somewhere in the 75 but I just haven't rounded any up yet. I haven't played Standard since Eldritch Moon.
Six-drops seem awfully ambitious, but I have certainly played some games where I've gotten to six mana but many games just don't. I'm interested to hear how this plays out for you. Does the Archon make Witch's Vengeance more appealing for the side-board?
Excluding the odd complete non-game, I've had more games where I have hit six mana than ones where I have not. On certain board states, dropping Archon is akin to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in some ways. It just ends games. It's not always relevant, of course, but then it's pretty easy to side out.
I don't think I would ever put Witch's Vengeance in this deck's sideboard, for any reason. It's too darn unreliable. Sure, the best-case scenario is a Plague Wind against a tribal deck or a deck that happens to line up tribally, but knights is already one of standard's few tribal decks. I would expect the card to be like Victim of Night most of the time, in that it has some huge blind spots. Sure, it would be a sideboard card, but that would beg the question of what I would board it in against. Most of the good times to use the card are actually decent matchups, and I'd like to use my sb slots for either really popular matchups (like Oko) or really bad matchups (like Fires of Invention decks or anything else with lots of sweepers).
Six-drops seem awfully ambitious, but I have certainly played some games where I've gotten to six mana but many games just don't. I'm interested to hear how this plays out for you. Does the Archon make Witch's Vengeance more appealing for the side-board?
Excluding the odd complete non-game, I've had more games where I have hit six mana than ones where I have not. On certain board states, dropping Archon is akin to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in some ways. It just ends games. It's not always relevant, of course, but then it's pretty easy to side out.
I don't think I would ever put Witch's Vengeance in this deck's sideboard, for any reason. It's too darn unreliable. Sure, the best-case scenario is a Plague Wind against a tribal deck or a deck that happens to line up tribally, but knights is already one of standard's few tribal decks. I would expect the card to be like Victim of Night most of the time, in that it has some huge blind spots. Sure, it would be a sideboard card, but that would beg the question of what I would board it in against. Most of the good times to use the card are actually decent matchups, and I'd like to use my sb slots for either really popular matchups (like Oko) or really bad matchups (like Fires of Invention decks or anything else with lots of sweepers).
With 24 lands, I hate to think how many turns it would take to hit six-mana, none of the online resources I found bother to talk about six-drops and I'm not going to do the math. Does one pitch an opener with a six-drop?
Legion's End would probably be a better card that Witch's Vengeance but I was able to get my hands on a couple copies of WV for cheap. It was for Elementals and Zombie tokens. It absolutely won a game against Golos but Field of the Dead is gone now and Legion's End would have been just as effective. WE would work orders of magnitude better against Elementals and there is a kid who plays them at the store. One plays what one needs for his own environment, it doesn't matter what the cool kids are playing in the big tournaments - unless of course, one is a cool kid playing in a big tournament. I'm neither cool nor a kid and I wouldn't cross the street to play in a tournament with more than five rounds. My side-board needs some work, but WE isn't at the top of the to-go list.
Modern is very competitive at my store and I'm down to Affinity as a deck that has a chance of winning. Burn can win too but I can barely stand to play it. I sometimes can beat one of the combo decks with my janky Hatebears deck which is always a good feeling, but the deck isn't really competitive. The Rock has stunk for some time now and BW Tokens was never a real thing.
If Standard gets that way at the store I will probably quit playing it - again. If Pioneer gets that way - assuming it gets going at all - then I will give up on it too.
The original post contains an updated deck list and some discussion. I placed third tonight after getting out-valued by Lucky Clovers. No, I'm not kidding.
I made Top 8 in the 72-player MCQ, going 5-1 over the first six rounds into an ID in round 7. Unfortunately, I scrubbed out in the first round of the single elimination due to some incredible mana flood.
I faced a lot of Oko in the tournament, including the middle four rounds that I played, and I went 3-1 against them. Those Oko matches were bookended by an Azorius deck that never really interacted with me in a meaningful way and a Golgari adventure deck that sputtered in games 2 and 3 after beating me in game 1.
I ended up playing a playset of Noxious Grasp for the tournament alone, though I'd never get away with that in my LGS meta. I was highly relevant and useful every time I drew it, except when my opponent had Summer Veil.
Overall, Corpse Knight was an absolute all-star. It forced through life loss in situations where I could not attack, tore through opposing life totals in conjunction with Worthy Knight, and acted as a valuable source of reach to enable Knight of the Ebon Legion. Sorin and Archon were decidedly less than impressive in the Oko matchup, unfortunately.
I made Top 8 in the 72-player MCQ, going 5-1 over the first six rounds into an ID in round 7. Unfortunately, I scrubbed out in the first round of the single elimination due to some incredible mana flood.
I faced a lot of Oko in the tournament, including the middle four rounds that I played, and I went 3-1 against them. Those Oko matches were bookended by an Azorius deck that never really interacted with me in a meaningful way and a Golgari adventure deck that sputtered in games 2 and 3 after beating me in game 1.
I ended up playing a playset of Noxious Grasp for the tournament alone, though I'd never get away with that in my LGS meta. I was highly relevant and useful every time I drew it, except when my opponent had Summer Veil.
Overall, Corpse Knight was an absolute all-star. It forced through life loss in situations where I could not attack, tore through opposing life totals in conjunction with Worthy Knight, and acted as a valuable source of reach to enable Knight of the Ebon Legion. Sorin and Archon were decidedly less than impressive in the Oko matchup, unfortunately.
Congrats on the result!
Noxious Grasp seems like a good card for the board; I've no idea why I can't ever remember to pick up a couple of copies.
I haven't experienced flood really yet, but I did whiff twice today with Acclaimed Contender; five lands in one occasion and four plus a spell in another.
I made Top 8 in the 72-player MCQ, going 5-1 over the first six rounds into an ID in round 7. Unfortunately, I scrubbed out in the first round of the single elimination due to some incredible mana flood.
I faced a lot of Oko in the tournament, including the middle four rounds that I played, and I went 3-1 against them. Those Oko matches were bookended by an Azorius deck that never really interacted with me in a meaningful way and a Golgari adventure deck that sputtered in games 2 and 3 after beating me in game 1.
I ended up playing a playset of Noxious Grasp for the tournament alone, though I'd never get away with that in my LGS meta. I was highly relevant and useful every time I drew it, except when my opponent had Summer Veil.
Overall, Corpse Knight was an absolute all-star. It forced through life loss in situations where I could not attack, tore through opposing life totals in conjunction with Worthy Knight, and acted as a valuable source of reach to enable Knight of the Ebon Legion. Sorin and Archon were decidedly less than impressive in the Oko matchup, unfortunately.
congrats and thanks for sharing experience on cards you used.
Okay, so the current plan to try to up the output a bit is to:
1. Add two more Midnight Reaper's main-deck.
2. Add one more Kaya's Wrath to the side-board.
3. Move the Sorins to the side-board.
The side-board generally needs work. Some thoughts include:
1. Adding some number of Noxious Grasp
2. Adding some number of Legion's End. These may be better than Disfigure for the main-deck, but I doubt it.
The little fellows played a couple of practice games against a Pioneer Possibility Storm brew. They won both with the second being a nail-biter pulled out by Curry Favor and then some card draw from the Reaper.
Third-place the last two outings. Not exciting but not too bad. Inability to deal with artifacts and three+ CMC creatures that don't attack or that have evasion are the weak points.
I'm going to add another Kaya to the board to help against Ovens and Cats. I still really have nothing for Clovers. Disenchant just seems So out of place. Splashing R for Battle Display is not out of the question I suppose, but I'm not thrilled about it.
2 Foulmire Knight
4 Knight of the Ebon Legion
4 Blacklance Paragon
4 Corpse Knight
3 Order of Midnight
2 Smitten Swordmaster
4 Worthy Knight
3 Murderous Rider
3 Acclaimed Contender
3 Midnight Reaper
1 Blast Zone
2 Castle Ardenvale
3 Castle Locthwain
4 Fabled Passage
4 Godless Shrine
3 Plains
5 Swamp
2 Tournament Grounds
Four Non-Creature Spells
4 Disfigure
1 Murderous Rider
4 Duress
1 Despark
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
2 Mortify
2 Witch's Vengeance
2 Kaya's Wrath
2 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
One each of Murderous Rider and Acclaimed Contender were removed for two of Foulmire Knight; he's just a good little man even if his Adventure never seems to come into play.
Corpse Knight still does a great deal of work for me as does Worthy Knight. I drew a hand with one Corpse and three Worthy Knights last time out. Trigger, trigger, trigger, trigger - it got silly.
Smitten Swordmaster or, rather, Curry Favor hasn't had any big moments in the last few outings but it still does some work. Order of Midnight is always value even if he can't block Rankle, Master of Pranks. :(.
Blacklance Paragon has been mostly a Flash creature lately - not too exciting. There's too many weird decks that aren't interested in combat, it seems.
Contender is solid but but with the extra Reapers, something had to go. One Rider went to the side-board but he may not stay there.
Midnight Reaper is a good man; I have added two more. I need to remember the life gain from Kaya's Wrath next time.
The Castles are probably excessive; I probably should go down one on Ardenvale or both.
The Disfigures have seemed inadequate lately. The removal in this format seems pathetic. I will experiment with some of the W janky looking stuff I guess. I hate to bring in three-CMC kill spells and there aren't enough of them it seems. Rider is just not really good enough if he isn't taking out a Planeswalker.
The board is a still a work in progress. Kaya is a good girl and I will add a second copy. I like Kaya's Vengence and its value should increase with the extra Reapers. Duress is probably needed but I find I don't often want to trade a knight for it. I find I rarely want to trade a Knight for any non-creature card. I am going to add some number of Noxious Grasp and I will eventually get a couple copies of Legion's End.
The two biggest issues I have is three+ CMC creatures that have evasion or just don't attack, such as Rankle. The Oven-Cat combo is a nuisance as well. Kaya can help with it. Lucky Clover is another weak point; I've just got nothing for it. Disenchant in the board is not appealing.
2 Knight of the Ebon Legion
2 Venerable Knight
4 Corpse Knight
2 Order of Midnight
2 Smitten Swordmaster
4 Worthy Knight
4 Murderous Rider
4 Acclaimed Contender
1 Blast Zone
1 Castle Ardenvale
4 Fabled Passage
4 Godless Shrine
1 Orzhov Guildgate
4 Plains
4 Scoured Barrens
4 Swamp
1 Tournament Grounds
1 Glass Casket
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Mace of the Valiant
2 Mortify
1 Realm-Cloaked Giant
2 Deafening Silence
4 Duress
1 Despark
1 The Elderspell
1 Epic Downfall
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Trapped in the Tower
2 Witch's Vengeance
1 Kaya's Wrath
After the Mardu debacle, I trimmed the R entirely and picked up a few more cards for BW. Obviously, this is still a little low-budget, but it's getting there.
The most obvious need: Two more copies of Knight of the Ebon Hand. This is a good little man!
The mana needs some more work; I had to make do a bit as I slapped things together in the store before the tournament. Some more Tournament Grounds will be added, but I don't want to cut off the possibility of casting Swift End on curve. Well, as close as possible. Castle Locthwain is probably a better bet than Ardenvale and I've ordered a copy of the former. Whether I play both or not has not yet been determined.
Worthy Knight and Corpse Knight do pair reasonably well, but it's slow and it isn't really putting power on the board quickly. I'm still not sure which to cast first! I'm tempted to try more copies of Smitten Swordmaster and Order of Midnight instead as these guys can do some work; the life gain from Swordmaster can really help and reloading is always good.
Given how badly mono-R thrashed this pile, I'm under no delusions that it's competitive or nearly so. But I did win half of my games. I played Golos, and stole a game with Witch's Vengeance and a miss play on his part allowing me to pump KotEL to get lethal. I played an Artifacts brew and won both games; the first was a grinder but the second was smooth sailing as he never got off two mana despite several cantrips.
The W one-drop will probably get the old heave-ho as I want to shift the mana a little twoards B to improve the odds of a first turn, untapped B source. Deathtouch is not useless, but I still haven't gotten a card off of Profane Insight, so I don't know if he will stick around or not.
Kaya is dubious as well; somehow I imagined her -1 was more useful than it is. She might go to the side-board though, as life gain can still be useful.
Duress came in often as did Witch's Vengeance - there were Field of the Dead in two matches - but the rest of the side-board is subject to change. I'm especially doubtful of Deafening Silence in Standard.
Any good advice is always welcome; don't play Knights in Standard is probably the best advice, but I'm going to keep at it, at least until the spoiler of the next set proves it hopeless.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I notice that you're also missing a few great knights in this list. Blacklance Paragon is a 3/1 with flash at worst and is "1B: Destroy target Questing Beast. You gain 3 life." at best. Midnight Reaper is a strong source of value that makes it easier for you to recover from sweepers.
You might also want some sort of powerful top-end card. Cavalier of Night provides some great value and is a fantastic Sorin target after an uptick. Gruesome Menagerie is a board in a can for a tribe with some powerful low-CMC creatures. Harmonious Archon is a ten-power windmill slam that will sometimes shrink your opponent's board while never weakening your own.
Sorin has been on the radar. I agree that he should be added; probably as a two-of. A four-drop isn't going to help against mono-R so I'll have to think about other sources of life gain. Curry Favor is a pretty cheap way of doing some damage as well as gaining some life and having a creature to boot.
I haven't come across any copies of Black Lance Paragon yet. As I said, it's still a little on the low-budget side, but I have thought about him, he seems like a good man. I've got a copy of Midnight Reaper and I've considered him; I do love some card-draw.
I'm leery of five-drops but I agree the decks needs something with some grunt. I've never noticed Gruesome Menagerie. It's potential is strong, but I'd hate to draw that in my opener.
Sorin is a good bet; I'll definitely round up a copy or two, I had already checked and he's not too expensive. Adding Blacklance probably means a more substantial rework but that's probably what this deck needs. I can work in a single Reaper by cutting more of the junk; I don't really know what I was thinking playing that ridiculous Mace. I actually do know what I was thinking but it was wishful thinking.
Every decklist I've seen online - all both of them! - for Orzhov Knights doesn't run any main-deck removal. There's no way those decks can compete with Boros or mono-R decks. The removal available for B seems to - what's the word I'm looking for? - oh yeah, SUCK. I suppose Blacklance would shore that up a bit, but it isn't going to help against first- or double-strikers which appear to be a thing in Standard today.
The irony of someone with a list of Modern decks like mine worrying about the cost of rarely played Standard rares is not lost on me, but circumstances have changed.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I think you're underestimating how red decks can crumble before giving your whole team lifelink. Unless your opponent has Tibalt or you have very few creatures, your opponent will likely have to deal with Sorin immediately to not fall behind, buying you plenty of valuable time. If aggro is still a problem, I would recommend Disfigure in the main or side to pick off some early threats.
Two copies of Sorin are on the way along with four copies of Blacklance. The latter can replace some of the main-deck removal, but he won't help against pumped, double-striking tramplers.
We'll certainly see if Sorin can get there fast enough to save some games. I appreciate you taking the time to give some advice. It's sad to see this community dying while people are screwing around on Facebook which is an awful format for discussing Magic.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
2 Foulmire Knight
4 Knight of the Ebon Legion
4 Blacklance Paragon
4 Corpse Knight
3 Order of Midnight
4 Worthy Knight
4 Murderous Rider
4 Acclaimed Contender
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Blast Zone
1 Castle Locthwain
4 Fabled Passage
4 Godless Shrine
4 Plains
2 Scoured Barrens
6 Swamp
2 Tournament Grounds
Six Non-Creature Spells
4 Disfigure
2 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
1 Realm-Cloaked Giant
4 Duress
1 Despark
1 The Elderspell
1 Epic Downfall
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
2 Vindicate
2 Witch's Vengeance
1 Kaya's Wrath
At this point I've half a mind to ditch the W and go mono-B. It would make the investment in those Fabled Passages seem unwise but c'est la vie.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
List
Another placed 33rd.
List
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Most of the new cards arrived, I'm still waiting for two KotEL. This is what I played Friday:
2 Foulmire Knight
2 Knight of the Ebon Legion
4 Blacklance Paragon
4 Corpse Knight
3 Order of Midnight
2 Smitten Swordmaster
4 Worthy Knight
4 Murderous Rider
4 Acclaimed Contender
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Blast Zone
1 Castle Ardenvale
1 Castle Locthwain
4 Fabled Passage
4 Godless Shrine
4 Plains
3 Scoured Barrens
4 Swamp
2 Tournament Grounds
Six Non-Creature Spells
4 Disfigure
2 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
1 Realm-Cloaked Giant
4 Duress
1 Despark
1 The Elderspell
1 Epic Downfall
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
2 Vindicate
2 Witch's Vengeance
1 Kaya's Wrath
The first match was the same artifact build I beat last week. It's just a little too slow; He did win the second game on the play.
The second match was the mono-R deck that steamrolled me last week but with a different player. The first game was close, but I stabiilzed, killed everything and got there. He did draw a prodigious number of lands. The second game was uneventful.
The third match was a Oko brew. It used Dreadhorde Invasion and he used Oko to turn the armies into buffed Elk. There was very little combat damage dealt in the game and that was by Order of Midnight. Most of the damage came from Corpse Knight and his own Dreadhorde although he used a liberal amount of Food tokens through the course of the game. The game winner was Curry Favor - for ten! I had deathtouchers and chumps for forever but he had some beefy guys so we sat there and I churned out Humans off of Worthy Knight and got value off of Adventures. Foulmire Knight is a good man in a match-up like this. Gets the job done and is easy to get back into play with Alter Fate. We finished the game just about at the time limit, so game-two was inconclusive.
The last match was a brew that used Corpse Knight, Cruel Celebrant, Midnight Reaper and numerous X-casting cost creatures plus Forever Young to restock. The first game it worked perfectly and he drew way too many cards to keep up with. The second game Kaya came in from the board and hosed him hard starting on turn-three and eventually finished him off with her ultimate. Game three he started with Leyline of Sanctity but I didn't draw any of the planeswalkers so it didn't really cut off anything but Curry Favor. My little fellows just managed to get in the beats.
Blacklance Paragon was very impactful and really may be better than Murderous Rider - at least in Standard. Sorin never really had a chance to show what he could do; I cast him only once and it was near the end of an already won game. Disfigure never felt bad and never sat in my hand.
Outside of one stellar effort by Kaya, the side-board really didn't make any contribution. Some work remains to be done there.
The KotEL is probably all-around better than Foulmire, but Foulmire is a good little man even if I still haven't got a card off of his adventure. I am also reluctant to cut Swordmaster or Order of Midnight. The deck is able to compete basically by generating value with the Adventures plus a little draw from Acclaimed Contender. Blacklance's EtB ability is about as good as an Adventure as well. Both Castles made a contribution as well. The B castle is better, in my view, but the W castle is usable and the drawback isn't significant.
A big closer would still be groovy, but Rotting Regisaur is probably not the guy without something like Embercleave to make it get through. Embercleave would likely be well-worth adding, but that's another story for another thread.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Congratulations, that's impressive. Corpse Knight is a really cool card that I didn't consider myself, so I'm considering running it over Wintermoor Commander. Commander is a fine card in many aspects, but it sometimes doesn't feel impactful enough.
I'm taking my own Orzhov Knights brew to a big MCQ this weekend, so the news that another player is succeeding with the deck, especially versus Oko, is heartening.
I dropped Swift Ends on three or four creatures during the course of that game, completely forgetting that it can hit planeswalkers! DOH!
Corpse Knight and Worthy Knight are a team; I don't think I would play one without the other. Castle Ardenvale is also a good fit with Corpse guy. I may dump both and test something different. This bunch has accomplished all they can with me.
The thought has occurred to me that twenty-four lands just might be too many - even if one is a Blast Zone. What are you running? Are you running anything over three-CMC?
Good luck at the MCQ, my results should be taken with a grain of salt; it was just a LGS FNM. Still, I'm proud of my little Knights.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I'm on 24 lands as well, including two Castle Ardenvale and a full playset of Castle Locthwain, so I can dig my way out of flooding pretty quickly. I also have five cards over 3-CMC, consisting of three Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord and two Harmonious Archon.
Six-drops seem awfully ambitious, but I have certainly played some games where I've gotten to six mana but many games just don't. I'm interested to hear how this plays out for you. Does the Archon make Witch's Vengeance more appealing for the side-board?
The Blast Zone may be a bad call, especially since I've no way to remove that token. Some copies of Legion's End are probably indicated somewhere in the 75 but I just haven't rounded any up yet. I haven't played Standard since Eldritch Moon.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Excluding the odd complete non-game, I've had more games where I have hit six mana than ones where I have not. On certain board states, dropping Archon is akin to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in some ways. It just ends games. It's not always relevant, of course, but then it's pretty easy to side out.
I don't think I would ever put Witch's Vengeance in this deck's sideboard, for any reason. It's too darn unreliable. Sure, the best-case scenario is a Plague Wind against a tribal deck or a deck that happens to line up tribally, but knights is already one of standard's few tribal decks. I would expect the card to be like Victim of Night most of the time, in that it has some huge blind spots. Sure, it would be a sideboard card, but that would beg the question of what I would board it in against. Most of the good times to use the card are actually decent matchups, and I'd like to use my sb slots for either really popular matchups (like Oko) or really bad matchups (like Fires of Invention decks or anything else with lots of sweepers).
Legion's End would probably be a better card that Witch's Vengeance but I was able to get my hands on a couple copies of WV for cheap. It was for Elementals and Zombie tokens. It absolutely won a game against Golos but Field of the Dead is gone now and Legion's End would have been just as effective. WE would work orders of magnitude better against Elementals and there is a kid who plays them at the store. One plays what one needs for his own environment, it doesn't matter what the cool kids are playing in the big tournaments - unless of course, one is a cool kid playing in a big tournament. I'm neither cool nor a kid and I wouldn't cross the street to play in a tournament with more than five rounds. My side-board needs some work, but WE isn't at the top of the to-go list.
Modern is very competitive at my store and I'm down to Affinity as a deck that has a chance of winning. Burn can win too but I can barely stand to play it. I sometimes can beat one of the combo decks with my janky Hatebears deck which is always a good feeling, but the deck isn't really competitive. The Rock has stunk for some time now and BW Tokens was never a real thing.
If Standard gets that way at the store I will probably quit playing it - again. If Pioneer gets that way - assuming it gets going at all - then I will give up on it too.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I faced a lot of Oko in the tournament, including the middle four rounds that I played, and I went 3-1 against them. Those Oko matches were bookended by an Azorius deck that never really interacted with me in a meaningful way and a Golgari adventure deck that sputtered in games 2 and 3 after beating me in game 1.
I ended up playing a playset of Noxious Grasp for the tournament alone, though I'd never get away with that in my LGS meta. I was highly relevant and useful every time I drew it, except when my opponent had Summer Veil.
Overall, Corpse Knight was an absolute all-star. It forced through life loss in situations where I could not attack, tore through opposing life totals in conjunction with Worthy Knight, and acted as a valuable source of reach to enable Knight of the Ebon Legion. Sorin and Archon were decidedly less than impressive in the Oko matchup, unfortunately.
Noxious Grasp seems like a good card for the board; I've no idea why I can't ever remember to pick up a couple of copies.
I haven't experienced flood really yet, but I did whiff twice today with Acclaimed Contender; five lands in one occasion and four plus a spell in another.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
congrats and thanks for sharing experience on cards you used.
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1 Foulmire Knight
3 Knight of the Ebon Legion
4 Blacklance Paragon
4 Corpse Knight
3 Order of Midnight
2 Smitten Swordmaster
4 Worthy Knight
4 Murderous Rider
4 Acclaimed Contender
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Blast Zone
2 Castle Ardenvale
3 Castle Locthwain
4 Fabled Passage
4 Godless Shrine
3 Plains
5 Swamp
2 Tournament Grounds
Six Non-Creature Spells
4 Disfigure
2 Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
1 Realm-Cloaked Giant
4 Duress
1 Despark
1 The Elderspell
1 Epic Downfall
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
2 Vindicate
2 Witch's Vengeance
1 Kaya's Wrath
1. Add two more Midnight Reaper's main-deck.
2. Add one more Kaya's Wrath to the side-board.
3. Move the Sorins to the side-board.
The side-board generally needs work. Some thoughts include:
1. Adding some number of Noxious Grasp
2. Adding some number of Legion's End. These may be better than Disfigure for the main-deck, but I doubt it.
Some wild ideas that I'm contemplating:
1. Adding one or two Resolute Rider somewhere in the 75.
2. Adding two-ish Gideon's Sacrifice somewhere in the 75. It's not all bad even without Resolute guy.
3. Adding The Circle of Loyalty.
4. Returning Mace of the Valiant.
What do you think? Do you have any better ideas?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Sorry, they are Mortify.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
The updated list is at the top of the thread.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I'm going to add another Kaya to the board to help against Ovens and Cats. I still really have nothing for Clovers. Disenchant just seems So out of place. Splashing R for Battle Display is not out of the question I suppose, but I'm not thrilled about it.
Updated list at top of thread.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn