MTG Salvation

Quote from ghgiunco »

you,re right ...

i like Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar btw ... even as Izoni my other try

Multani seems decent if you want to ramp into the 7 slot, and can act as a finisher with the right deck (probably the Sultai version, as they may put more stuff in to the graveyard). The fact it has built in recursion and anti-flying is nice.

I'm not necessarily sure how much we should push beyond the 5 slot in general, though. I like having Carnage Tyrant as a 6 drop at least in the sideboard (maybe mainboard depending on the meta), as it's a massive headache for some bad matchups (looking at you Control). Biogenic Ooze is ultra awesome, and it even pumps up Vannifar to a 3/5 the turn it lands, and can easily end games. Lyra is crazy good for the Bant version.

The thing I most enjoy about this deck, though, is you really can adjust / pick what you feel best fits your local meta / arena / Bo1 or Bo3. It doesn't take much adjustment (assuming you own the land, of course), to change between R/W/B, as there is potentially loads of overlap, or some of the creatures you might want are 1 ofs anyway.

Bant list from FFL on the mothership here:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/play-design/first-look-ravnica-allegiance-future-future-league-2019-02-08
Bugler and Trostani have me thinking of a Bant Black version. I just have to remember that Trostani and Hostage Taker are a nonbo.

What I'd love to see if anyone starts bringing a version of this into tournaments.. and if we start getting match writeups in standard.

Quote from tulun »

What I'd love to see if anyone starts bringing a version of this into tournaments.. and if we start getting match writeups in standard.

i'd love to see an Pro list too. The problem i see for now, is how Sultai is on the edge in this std. With many removals (chupa, Throphy, Cast down...) and Vaniffar need to untap to start to work. I start to think to use Dive Down to protect it. And this is the reason i like to use other must answer card like Thief of Sanity and Biogenic Ooze (full playset in mb). Toolbox is my favorite archetype.

Still playing sultai version, made another 3-1 last showdown (last monday here) i'll put whole list before, if lands and i need to improve my side.

Inspired by the FFL list, I built a Sultai White list (below and here). I took it to paper tournaments on last Friday and Monday, going 1-2 each time. The matches on Friday were Esper Control (loss), Izzet Drakes (win) and Esper Control (loss). On Monday I lost to Artifact Combo, beat Gates and lost to Elfball.

I think those results were about right, if not better than the deck deserves. Against linear strategies, the deck is too slow with the need to unwind the mana. Against control, the deck didn't do anything. I think the win against Drakes may not have been deserved, as my opponent did not really know the deck and (I think) chose suboptimal lines.

Militia Bugler was neat and I liked Knight of Autumn, but overall the W cards didn't seem powerful enough and mana problems with four colors made the deck nearly unplayable. I plan to go back to Sultai and rebuild a grindy deck with Vannifar as a value add, but I don't recommend even that for control-heavy metas. In addition, the version I played had basically no disruption, and I think that was ineffective.

Whatever, let's just say that I did it for science.

Quote from hoser2 »

I don't recommend even that for control-heavy metas. In addition, the version I played had basically no disruption, and I think that was ineffective.

this defines the deck stats. Vannifar it was to be my main deck for this std, but this stupid Esper control for all around (just yesterday on showdown had 3 of them), its impossible to play with it, so sad, cause is so funny to play with vannifar.

Now, i'n with a sultai control for this season.

Thanks for posting anyway. Here's what I tweaked it to for when I am playing for fun. Feedback welcome! As the metas evolve and new cards are released over the next year and a half, we can hope for a more competitive showing. I have been getting better competitive results with controlling Grixis Midrange and Jund Deathwhirler myself, so I understand playing another deck for competitive reasons.

Good luck!

The one thing i dont like for this kind of deck is spells. If have creatures that make what this spell intends to do, is better, either planeswalkers.

the last list (without land, i dont remember the manabase) was something like this:



The only spell i use is Quasiduplicate, thats divide me, all the time i thought of to cut, this wins me a game, copying a Plaguecraft or a hostage taker, chupacabra. But as i told in past post in here, maybe we need more playset of must answer thread (preferably evasive) to not be so easy for opponent choose how control us.

You have interesting choises, i see a loop into Golgari Findbroker and The Eldest Reborn could be great. Lazav, the Multifarious seens a interesting card to test here. I looked for Midnight Reaper too, but with my luck, i'll draw the card o want to search

Interesting! If I gave up hardcasting Chupacabra, I could tweak the manabase to play Quasiduplicate.

Some of my cards are experiments: Lazav, Thief, Journey, Multani. Multani and Tendershoot are first cuts. I was torn about cutting the other Reapers. The top end of the chains is not really a plan, as I never want to pod out of a 5 unless I can get it back with Muldrotha or Findbroker. Likewise, I don't know how Pelakka Wurm helps a situation that Carnage Tyrant or Muldrotha doesn't. But hey, cards and life. Podding through Multani seems good, though. The enchantments, artifacts and saccable lands are obviously a nod to Muldrotha. Lazav is a decent early blocker, I have ways of dumping cards in the bin and it can be an elf, a Reaper, a Thief, a Vannifar, a Carnage Tyrant, a Muldrotha, an Ooze; so fun.

I feel like if you're just going to play Sultai and put Vannifar in, you're limiting what the card can do. The version I've been tinkering with is U/G/W/r. The red splash is just for Rhythm of the Wild, Ravager Wurm, and a couple of sideboard stuff. The deck runs really smooth most of the time. It struggles against your typical Sultai grindy decks, but that's probably the worst matchup. I've played it the past two Fridays and went 3-1 for rounds, 6-2 in games both times. Does great against control and aggro, less great against control.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1601547#paper

I honestly don't see how you can beat red or mono-u tempo. Nothing relevant happens until turn 4-5 and by then, you are dead to red or locked down to blue.

Quote from Saint Tobias »

I feel like if you're just going to play Sultai and put Vannifar in, you're limiting what the card can do.

I think you are exactly right. We are asking different questions. You seem to be asking: "What deck can make Vannifar most powerful?" I am asking: "What is the most powerful deck I can make that reasonably runs Vannifar?" This is not to say that my version is more powerful, but I am trying to make a deck that can win with or without.

Quote from Saint Tobias »

The version I've been tinkering with is U/G/W/r. The red splash is just for Rhythm of the Wild, Ravager Wurm, and a couple of sideboard stuff. The deck runs really smooth most of the time. It struggles against your typical Sultai grindy decks, but that's probably the worst matchup. I've played it the past two Fridays and went 3-1 for rounds, 6-2 in games both times. Does great against control and aggro, less great against control.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1601547#paper

I really like your take. It seems really fun. Ravager Wurm!

That said, I took my latest version to my less competitive meta and broke through for a 2-0-1 finish. I beat Goblins, drew Izzet Phoenix/Drakes and beat Naya Aggro.

Quote from A_E_I_Own_U »

I honestly don't see how you can beat red or mono-u tempo. Nothing relevant happens until turn 4-5 and by then, you are dead to red or locked down to blue.

Mine? I can't imagine how I could lose to red. Between four Knight of Autumn in the 75, along with Kraul Foragers and Reclamation Sage in the side, I can gain so much life while destroying all of their important enchantments while I'm at it. I've won every game against red aggro I've played. As for Mono U, I've not played against them more than a couple of times, but it felt like a pretty even matchup.

Quote from hoser2 »

Quote from Saint Tobias »

I feel like if you're just going to play Sultai and put Vannifar in, you're limiting what the card can do.

I think you are exactly right. We are asking different questions. You seem to be asking: "What deck can make Vannifar most powerful?" I am asking: "What is the most powerful deck I can make that reasonably runs Vannifar?" This is not to say that my version is more powerful, but I am trying to make a deck that can win with or without.

Quote from Saint Tobias »

The version I've been tinkering with is U/G/W/r. The red splash is just for Rhythm of the Wild, Ravager Wurm, and a couple of sideboard stuff. The deck runs really smooth most of the time. It struggles against your typical Sultai grindy decks, but that's probably the worst matchup. I've played it the past two Fridays and went 3-1 for rounds, 6-2 in games both times. Does great against control and aggro, less great against control.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1601547#paper

I really like your take. It seems really fun. Ravager Wurm!

That said, I took my latest version to my less competitive meta and broke through for a 2-0-1 finish. I beat Goblins, drew Izzet Phoenix/Drakes and beat Naya Aggro.

Yeah, I feel like Sultai is probably a more consistent deck, but maybe a bit less explosive and more linear than my version. I don't know if it's really possible to say which is better per se, it's just personal choice I think. That said, having red for Rhythm of the Wild makes control matchups muuuuuch easier, and there's a ton of super strong white cards as well. I keep thinking that I want to cut Conclave Cavalier, but it always comes in clutch at least once every FNM I've played with it, so I don't know if I want to really.

EDIT: Also, everyone had better start calling their deck Amazon Prime right away because that's a much cooler deck name than "Vannifar Pod"

I'd love to play test it with you if you have time one day. I'm not saying you are exaggerating, but
Even setting the deck to always have the best available card in hand, I was only able to beat red 1 game out of 14.
I see no way to win w/o a shalai on turn 3. That means you have to have a surviving mana dork til turn 3.
Playing it vs mono-u tempo, the only time I won a match was with a turn 2 rhythm and a plekka turn 5.

I think the white is a better splash color for sure though.

Quote from Saint Tobias »

...

EDIT: Also, everyone had better start calling their deck Amazon Prime right away because that's a much cooler deck name than "Vannifar Pod"

I don't get it. I love playing along with an in-joke, but if I can't explain the joke, it loses value for me.

lol amazon as in there when you need it delivery. prime as in prime speaker.

I like it. My own in-joke is to call it "Ooze Tribal."

Before rotation, I want to play a version w/R and Captivating Crew in the sideboard. I know it's bad because what are the chances that I will have two spare 4 drops lying around and it will never work against good decks. Saccing opponent's creatures seems even better than saccing my own.

Here is a Reddit post about taking Bant Vannifar to Mythic on Arena. Genius! I kept thinking that the choice was between Vannifar and Hydroid Krasis. Why not both?

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Hope test it someday. Maybe spark give some tools. but now, the new Tezzeret and friends is my first choise to build now haha

Quote from ghgiunco »

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Hope test it someday. Maybe spark give some tools. but now, the new Tezzeret and friends is my first choise to build now haha

Hmm. Play good cards and win? Genius!

Sure, you go ahead and 4-0 FNM. Meanwhile, I will be going 1-3 with five color Vannifar featuring Niv-Mizzet Reborn and Chromatic Lantern. My one victory? Opponent got mana screwed two games out of three.

Seriously though, I agree. The Bant version with Krases may be competitive, but is unlikely to be the best thing to play (well, except draws and long drawn-out mirror matches can be difficult in a long tournament, so Teferi may not be perfect.) To be fair, I also play more competitive decks much of the time and I will spend some time trying to break Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God. But sometimes I like to try hard stuff for fun, and five color Vannifar with the new Niv Mizzet appeals. I wonder if Time Wipe could be good in 5C Vannifar?

To lend some straightforward purpose to this post, Roalesk, Apex Hybrid seems very interesting. If Kaya's Wrath ever falls into disfavor and we get cards that support a go-wide build with counters, podding out of Roalesk before combat could lead to alpha striking. The synergies between Roalesk and Biogenic Ooze impress me also. A board that could benefit from Roalesk might more simply benefit from God-Eternal Rhonas.

Let's see what happens on magical Christmas when we untap with Vannifar, Biogenic and ooze friend on board and Roalesk or Rhonas in hand:
Ooze + friend = 6 power
After casting Roalesk = 8 power vs after casting Rhonas = 12 power
After podding Roalesk (or Rhonas into ... Yeah, a 6 mana creature with a pump effect would be nuts, but at least Muldrotha would allow replaying Roalesk the next turn.) = 12 power.
Not good enough. If we have two other creatures on board, we can alpha strike for lethal, but now we are venturing into super-Christmasland.

Fblthp, the Lost!

Adam Yurchick proposes a deck with Roalesk and Fblthp here.

Quote from hoser2 »

[quote from="ghgiunco »" url="/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/804620-vannifar-the-return-of-pod?comment=69"]Hmm. Play good cards and win? Genius!

Sure, you go ahead and 4-0 FNM. Meanwhile, I will be going 1-3 with five color Vannifar featuring Niv-Mizzet Reborn and Chromatic Lantern. My one victory? Opponent got mana screwed two games out of three.

Not true for all time. Artifact decks is my favorite no matter the tier, my pet deck before rotate was UB improvise. I think FNM's best friends is rogue decks, i love it, some weeks agora i play with 4C rampage the clans xD. If you remember me, i'n the guy who tried Grixis Pirate early ixalan xD. Fully support all kind of try to have fun in FNM.

I rly like this bant list, but i start to think at least temur must be best shell cause have acess to Rhythm of the Wild. And this boar god seens so strong, with rhonas omg. I like Roalesk too and fit in a temur shell and Fblthp, the Lost too. Maybe Zegana wins a chance here with Roalesk give counter to suport zegana's trample and rhonas buff ? (i belive in magical christimas too xD)

Quote from ghgiunco »

Quote from hoser2 »

[quote from="ghgiunco »" url="/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/804620-vannifar-the-return-of-pod?comment=69"]Hmm. Play good cards and win? Genius!

Sure, you go ahead and 4-0 FNM. Meanwhile, I will be going 1-3 with five color Vannifar featuring Niv-Mizzet Reborn and Chromatic Lantern. My one victory? Opponent got mana screwed two games out of three.

Not true for all time. Artifact decks is my favorite no matter the tier, my pet deck before rotate was UB improvise. I think FNM's best friends is rogue decks, i love it, some weeks agora i play with 4C rampage the clans xD. If you remember me, i'n the guy who tried Grixis Pirate early ixalan xD. Fully support all kind of try to have fun in FNM.

I rly like this bant list, but i start to think at least temur must be best shell cause have acess to Rhythm of the Wild. And this boar god seens so strong, with rhonas omg. I like Roalesk too and fit in a temur shell and Fblthp, the Lost too. Maybe Zegana wins a chance here with Roalesk give counter to suport zegana's trample and rhonas buff ? (i belive in magical christimas too xD)

</blockquote>
Oops. No offense meant. Please accept my apology if that stung at all. I meant to be making fun of my own proclivities, not attacking your possible spikiness.

I'm playing the bant version on Arena with a tech of my own against control (podding into Niambi, Faithful Healer is huge) and i think it's very good (but i haven't found any Wilderness deck yet, and they seems problematic). Sadly i don't think Fblthp, the Lost! could be enough good (mainly due to having only 4 Elves to pod him), but maybe a version with more copies and the new Bow could work.

Tolsimir is really hot btw

edit: Moreover, the Temur version could be better: Rhythm and Phoenix are really strong 4x in this deck, Ravager Wurm is also awesome and so on. I think that i'll miss a good cc3 drop as Militia Bulgar in such a deck btw

Based on the Mythic Bant list above, I have a first draft of Rainbow Amazon Prime. Sadly, I think it is worse competitively than my starting point, but I offer it for discussion and suggestions.

But wait, you say, we can't post about the new cards here until the spoiler is complete. Ha! I just changed that rule.


Tweaked for awesomeness: -1 Kraul Harpooner, -1 Biogenic Ooze, +1 Ravager Wurm, +1 Nicol Bolas, the Ravager

I feel like black adds the least to this strategy. Why not take it out for a more stable mana base and more immediately impactful vannifar chains?
4 militia bugler and 4 rhythm of the wild means you'll likely have one on turn 2. These enable better turn 3 and beyond plays (not just vannifar but other midrangey stuff)
the new monkey seems like a better choice for ramp than incubation druid, especially with an explore package.
This means we have a higher chance of podding into fblthp, which is a phrase I didn't know I always wanted to say.

Basically I'm wondering what black adds here?