Can we talk lands? You need to get to 4 but probably not much beyond that so 24 lands feels a bit heavy...what have u found?
Btws, I just beat Golgari with a game that was the definition of tempo. Landed an early Pteramander and then used Frilled Mystic to counter a Chupacabra, and then smashed for 8 after adapting the bird. Spell pierce and dive down all played a part with a lovely top decked Lava Coil to clear the path to victory. I'm a huge fan of Bant tempo right now, but this deck looks sweet too.
Also, I have played 3 quick matches with the deck and went 1-2. Ok yes that is a tiny sample size, but...wow. So much fun. The games were so interactive...this is the type of magic that I love. Currently I swapped out 4 Discovery for 2 Anticipate nad 2 Chemister's insight. Playing at instant speed is very important for this deck I think.
I also came to the conclusion that there was perhaps one too many lands in the main and considering how many cards this deck tends to see, I felt comfortable cutting down to 23. I'm primarily a full-on control player, so I always like to play more lands than most people and I HATE missing land drops (hell, I've played as many as 29 in a Standard control deck before), so my own personal bias led me to stick with 24 for the longest time, where 23 is probably just fine too. The mana requirements are pretty stringent and I couldn't rationalize cutting any of the two-color lands, so Island was the only reasonable cut.
I also cut one Risk Factor as I was winning many games without even casting it, but I still like having the pressure it can create. Three copies still gives us reliability in drawing it if we want it and every copy we do see is effectively two, so there were some games where I was getting clogged on them.
In place of these two cuts, I added the fourth Pteramander and the fourth Lava Coil to the main. In the sideboard, the Lava Coil is obviously no longer there and I've also changed a number of cards around. Carnage Tyrant was overperforming every time I played it, so I went up to a third copy and cut a Niv-Mizzet for it. Niv is obviously strong, but in my experience Tyrant was more effective at doing what our deck wants to do most of the time. I also cut one Negate, one Banefire, and the last Shivan Fire to give us four open slots (Lava Coil moving to the main being the fourth) with which to place two Spell Pierce and two Crushing Canopy.
I felt like I wanted a bit more action against the mono-U decks since their post-board games often have them with a million one mana plays to protect their Curiously Obsessed dudes and will often only leave a single mana up for this purpose. Spell Pierce can force the issue on Shock or Coil, which is really all you need to do in that matchup. You aren't necessarily trying to race them or whatever; I'd say more often than not you can shift into the control role since you have actual removal and a Carnage Tyrant endgame that they can't possibly hope to beat if they don't have Tempest Djinn rollin'. Spell Pierce is also just a serviceable card against control decks if you see it early enough; much better than a Shock or Lava Coil, anyway.
The Crushing Canopy are in because I wanted some interaction for the number of punishing enchantments that are out there, namely Wilderness Reclamation, Rhythm of the Wild, and the red card advantage enchantments. The fact that it also doubles up as a way to pick off Doom Whisperers, Lyras, opposing Niv-Mizzets and Pteramanders, along with all the meaningful drakes threats is also nice.
Banefire ended up being a bit too situational and cutesy. It felt like kind of a throwaway sideboard slot, so it got the axe. I also decided to keep a split of Disdainful Stroke and Negate since against the control decks they both counter the most important cards, but Stroke can come in as an additional card against Golgari or other green midrange decks whereas Negate may often be dead.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
So you don't feel like Risk Factor is card disadvantage? Dealing 4 is great but only if you are close to killing your opponent. How often did you feel it was better than a more versatile card like Strike.
Sorry, Im asking a lot of questions. Decks like this that arent mainstream tend to have fewer ppl working,, so just trying to explore all avenues
So you don't feel like Risk Factor is card disadvantage? Dealing 4 is great but only if you are close to killing your opponent. How often did you feel it was better than a more versatile card like Strike.
Sorry, Im asking a lot of questions. Decks like this that arent mainstream tend to have fewer ppl working,, so just trying to explore all avenues
It's important to have something useful to do when your opponent does nothing of consequence on their turn. Unless things are going completely horrible, either side of Risk Factor should be good. They can only take four damage so many times before they have to start giving you cards instead and you have a lot of good things to draw into; either way the card resolves, it's usually good for you.
You can experiment with other cards if you want to (of course), but something like Lightning Strike seems significantly worse to me. That card is always just three damage... low floor, low ceiling. Risk Factor represents two spells, a mana sink (important when trying to leverage counterspells), something to do if you start flooding out, and ends up in some combination of damage, cards in hand, or your opponent using resources to stop it (countering either half or whatever).
Don't ever worry about asking questions; that's what drives conversation, after all 👍
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Ok so I lost to Thousand YEar storm...but should have easily won as I had Ionize in hand...but chose to play a creature...ugh. Then I beat Grixis control in dominating fashion. I will now test 3 Risk Factors...but I want to comment on your list. You hae 2 Dive down and 2 Ionize main...how in the world do you deal with any removal?
Ok so I lost to Thousand YEar storm...but should have easily won as I had Ionize in hand...but chose to play a creature...ugh. Then I beat Grixis control in dominating fashion. I will now test 3 Risk Factors...but I want to comment on your list. You hae 2 Dive down and 2 Ionize main...how in the world do you deal with any removal?
I have three Ionize main, for what it's worth. You can always play more counterspells if you want, but this configuration has worked quite well for me so far.
Removal is removal; sometimes they'll have it, sometimes they won't, and sometimes you'll be able to stop them even when they do. Guardian is your best bet at grinding through removal since you can get replacement copies pretty easy. In the matchups where you are facing piles of removal, bring in your Carnage Tyrants, Ral, and counterspells. Presumably most often these decks won't have a lot of creatures, so you can side out your removal and just be more threat dense.
I beat a Rakdos dude who was using every piece of burn he had to try and keep my guys off the table and because he eventually ran out of it, I drew a Pteramander to clock him for a few turns. Game two, he essentially scooped to my turn six Carnage Tyrant. He had brought in Drill Bit to try and disrupt my hand, but instead of taking the Tyrant on turn two, he took a Guardian. When he went to Drill Bit me on his turn six, I countered it and slammed the Tyrant on his face the turn after.
It's tough to say exactly how to play every match, but your guys are kind of expected to die against people packing 10+ removal spells. Your best bet is to try and get stuff into play early and protect your lead. Barring that, play somewhat conservatively if you have the time to do so. If you have Dive Down, consider playing a turn off curve so that you can always have it up.
Also, don't leave yourself vulnerable on critical turns by fighting over something that doesn't really matter in the long run. For example, don't counter a removal spell on your dude if your opponent could untap and slam Teferi or something like that. It's better to let one of your replaceable creatures die and keep the shields up to prevent anything truly problematic from happening.
Ok I have played a bunch of games with this deck today. Still love it...super fun and feels just like tempo in older formats. I did not feel like it was overly powerful however. I have some thoughts.
First: Lightning strike is still good...being able to have removal that can go face when u need is very good...the removal part is most important, but I just ended a game going bolt, bolt, bolt...erg...derp I mean strike strike strike.
Second: Pteramnder is apparently tearing up legacy, but I'm not sure how goo it is here...for me it seemed like a 1/1 for 90% of the time. Because we only have opt as a 1 mana cantrip, my graveyard was rarely filled until turn 6+.
Third:Frilled Mystic is insane. Growth Chamber Guardian is insane, but those were the only two to strike me. I'm still keeping 3 Pteramnders for now, but we need a fast way to fill up the graveyard to make it a 5/5 early. I play 3 Divedown and 2 Spell pierce and 3 Quench as early interaction, but still its tough.
Fourth: Playing at instant speed is a big deal with Frilled in the deck. I cant tap out to play chart a course if I'm holding up mystic mana. If this deck is to become a thing, it needs, I think, to either go lower to the ground with more instant/sorceries for Pteramander, or find a way to play more often on our opponent's turn.
Fifth: Canman you seem to be having success with the deck. It would be helpful to have some video evidence of how the deck should function, so if you ever feel the desire to film some matches....I'd love it
Have you guys considered Light up the Stage as additional card draw and digging? With Pteramnder and shock it should be easy enough to get the spectacle cost.
These tempo'esque decks have been on my radar for some time now and have been hoarding some cards for quite some time, but me and my playgroup have been out of standard for a while so i'm not quite up there in terms of what's hot and what's not.
Can someone explain why this deck doesn't run Deeproot Champion and the two drakes in some configuration for a more "miracle grow" style of play?
I had envisioned a deck where Incubation // Incongruity alongside those could be a thing.
Have you guys considered Light up the Stage as additional card draw and digging? With Pteramnder and shock it should be easy enough to get the spectacle cost.
Ok so lets chat about light up the stage. It seems like a 1 mana draw 2...I had not thought of it before. Now a problem to think about. What if you draw expensive cards that u cant cast? Good idea though...I'm in a brewing mood. Hopefully others will stick around long enough to test and provide feedback.
Deeproot Champion. I really would love this to be good...finally havie Tarmogoyf in a RUG deck feels good. Problem is he is a 1/1 to start which is tiny. Second, Growth Chamber Guardian can get to be a 4/4 while also tutoring for a copy of itself. Maybe I should look back at him though...Pteramander is not great early in this deck...I'll put some back it.
Sorry for hijacking
I had envisioned a deck where Incubation // Incongruity alongside those could be a thing.
Can you elaborate on how Incubation could be good? Remember decks like this tend to run fewer than 16 creatures and 3 mana to give an opponent a 3/3 is not a great rate
Anyone try mission briefing in this shell yet? Seems like it would be pretty nifty. Being able to get more mileage out of an ionize later in the game seems good. Maybe as a 1-2 of to just access whatever your best GY card is ATM.
Thinking of building this.
Have you guys run into any issues with your opponents responding to your adapt activations on growth chamber guardians? Wondering if y'all can give me any pointers of when you find yourself fighting over these and the activations.
So right now I play on Arena and mono red is everywhere because ppl enjoy noob decks, so I am not sure if this deck is good right now. We don't have many good sideboard cards against red.
Let me edit this...I've been playing with a slightly more aggressive list and it just eats combo...these reclaimation decks are basically a bye. Currently I am playing 9 counters plus 4 Frilled Mystic main, with 3 negates side. Perhaps you all can comment on it.
Um...guys...this deck is nuts. I am now like 10-1 since I switched to the current build wit the only loss being on the draw vs red. Control decks are soo easy when you play 3 spell pierce and 3 quench main.
Basically the idea is to drop 2 aggressive creatures and counter that one important spell that the control deck needs to resolve. Not sure how it will work against midrange. I think bigger decks like golgari should be good against this, but since it is already good vs control, and now with the cheaper green creatures, red is easier, so basically we hope to not play midranged decks
I've been testing the OP's version with only slight modifications for a little now. I've played Mono White, Boros, Orzhov Knights, Abzan Knights, Abzan Life Gain, Mono Blue, UW Control, and Walls. Still haven't played Mono Red Aggro, Mono Red Burn, Golgari, or Sultai. With the recent GP results it looks like Sultai and Mono Red are the decks to beat.
In the games I've played I've occassionally been light on mana and sometimes just wish for a Spell Pierce or that Lava Coil was Lightning Strike for the instant-speed interaction.
Has anyone else felt similarly? Are there any changes the deck needs to combat Sultai?
I've been testing the OP's version with only slight modifications for a little now. I've played Mono White, Boros, Orzhov Knights, Abzan Knights, Abzan Life Gain, Mono Blue, UW Control, and Walls. Still haven't played Mono Red Aggro, Mono Red Burn, Golgari, or Sultai. With the recent GP results it looks like Sultai and Mono Red are the decks to beat.
In the games I've played I've occassionally been light on mana and sometimes just wish for a Spell Pierce or that Lava Coil was Lightning Strike for the instant-speed interaction.
Has anyone else felt similarly? Are there any changes the deck needs to combat Sultai?
I'm thinking of switching Coil to Strike too. There are a few x/4 creatures, like drakes, but not many. Have you felt that version was powerful? How has pteramander? I've only had it been a 5/5 twice I think.
I've been testing the OP's version with only slight modifications for a little now. I've played Mono White, Boros, Orzhov Knights, Abzan Knights, Abzan Life Gain, Mono Blue, UW Control, and Walls. Still haven't played Mono Red Aggro, Mono Red Burn, Golgari, or Sultai. With the recent GP results it looks like Sultai and Mono Red are the decks to beat.
In the games I've played I've occassionally been light on mana and sometimes just wish for a Spell Pierce or that Lava Coil was Lightning Strike for the instant-speed interaction.
Has anyone else felt similarly? Are there any changes the deck needs to combat Sultai?
I'm thinking of switching Coil to Strike too. There are a few x/4 creatures, like drakes, but not many. Have you felt that version was powerful? How has pteramander? I've only had it been a 5/5 twice I think.
Pteramander was almost always a 1/1 for me. It wasn't the damage it dealt as much as the threat of Adapting and that damage. It threw off their combat math because I had so many options to respond with which is why I'm also considering Lightning Strike. They know I can't remove threats on their turn with Lava Coil so they can focus on avoiding counters. The only threats that are a potential problem then are Drakes and Rekindling Phoenix, neither of which are as prevalent as they once were. This deck wins on the back your of opponents mistakes which they make because they don't know how we'll interact on their turn.
I'm also considering Spell Pierce, but I have no idea what I'd remove for them.
Pteramander was almost always a 1/1 for me. It wasn't the damage it dealt as much as the threat of Adapting and that damage. It threw off their combat math because I had so many options to respond with which is why I'm also considering Lightning Strike. They know I can't remove threats on their turn with Lava Coil so they can focus on avoiding counters. The only threats that are a potential problem then are Drakes and Rekindling Phoenix, neither of which are as prevalent as they once were. This deck wins on the back your of opponents mistakes which they make because they don't know how we'll interact on their turn.
I'm also considering Spell Pierce, but I have no idea what I'd remove for them.
Can you post your decklist? Is it the same as the original decklist? I feel like a tempo deck like this cannot function without cheap counters like Spell Pierce or Dive Down. I'm not playing Dive Down at the moment, but pierce has been one of the deck's mvps
Sorry for hijacking
I had envisioned a deck where Incubation // Incongruity alongside those could be a thing.
Can you elaborate on how Incubation could be good? Remember decks like this tend to run fewer than 16 creatures and 3 mana to give an opponent a 3/3 is not a great rate
I could be very wrong, but i figured those are exactly the reasons why
Because the deck i had in mind only runs 12~16 creatures, and I want to find a Deeproot Champion as and drop it as early as turn 2 if possible or turn 3 when i have protection for it, an openening hand without creatures but with Incubation // Incongruity would be keepable. Late game, the card doubles as an exile spell for creatures which don't die to "bolt" and thus you can skip Lava Coil.
Unfortunately I can't judge how much of a downside the 3/3 would be. As i said, i've been out of standard for a while.
As a rough basis i was thinking somewhere along the lines of:
Notes: Frilled Mystic is in there because it fits the tempo theme. Originally i had more Ionize Growth Spiral is a pretty nifty way to make use of you two mana on turn 2 to either make your turn 3 setup less painful or just ramp.
Pteramander was almost always a 1/1 for me. It wasn't the damage it dealt as much as the threat of Adapting and that damage. It threw off their combat math because I had so many options to respond with which is why I'm also considering Lightning Strike. They know I can't remove threats on their turn with Lava Coil so they can focus on avoiding counters. The only threats that are a potential problem then are Drakes and Rekindling Phoenix, neither of which are as prevalent as they once were. This deck wins on the back your of opponents mistakes which they make because they don't know how we'll interact on their turn.
I'm also considering Spell Pierce, but I have no idea what I'd remove for them.
Can you post your decklist? Is it the same as the original decklist? I feel like a tempo deck like this cannot function without cheap counters like Spell Pierce or Dive Down. I'm not playing Dive Down at the moment, but pierce has been one of the deck's mvps
Here's what I have right now. I agree that Spell Pierce probably deserves a spot, but over what I can't say. Syncopate is another card that keeps popping up on my radar. It seems like it has potential up and down the curve. Everything has proven valuable at times with potentially Risk Factor and Pteramander being the weakest.
So between the last two posts, there seems to be a creature heavy deck and a more spell based version. He is my problem with the 12 creature version. Pteramander rewards you for casting lots instants/sorceries which also goes well with drakes. However, if you are busy adapting Growth Chamber or countering with Mystic, then Pteramander won't adapt soon. When I was playing with those cards I found that many times I didnt have a clock, so was just a bad control deck.
So between the last two posts, there seems to be a creature heavy deck and a more spell based version. He is my problem with the 12 creature version. Pteramander rewards you for casting lots instants/sorceries which also goes well with drakes. However, if you are busy adapting Growth Chamber or countering with Mystic, then Pteramander won't adapt soon. When I was playing with those cards I found that many times I didnt have a clock, so was just a bad control deck.
Pteramander might be better in a more spell-focused shell, maybe Izzet Drakes with Arclight Phoenix. I've been trying to find something that might replace it, but the only option I've come up with is Deeproot Champion. It's not ideal, but it's a threat that grows while we're doing what we want to do anyway.
Adapt is an ability that fits right into what we want to do with the deck as it's instant speed and increases our options. It allows us to play an early body, protect it, and present a threat when we're ready. Guardian also happens to find more of itself which is an incredible upside.
Lets talk about champion. When is he good? Im talking vs actually good decks. Obviously every card is good vs bad decks but when is champion good vs, say, mono red? He has no evasion or card advantage. What do you think?
Also, Ive been struggling a bit more lately...probly around a 50% win rate which is fine but not what I was doing earlier. Im wondering if Krassis could be a good sideboard slot vs midrange
Lets talk about champion. When is he good? Im talking vs actually good decks. Obviously every card is good vs bad decks but when is champion good vs, say, mono red? He has no evasion or card advantage. What do you think?
Also, Ive been struggling a bit more lately...probly around a 50% win rate which is fine but not what I was doing earlier. Im wondering if Krassis could be a good sideboard slot vs midrange
I don't think Champion is ever really great, but is it better than Pteramander in this deck? Situationally probably.
Krasis could be a decent sideboard card, but we'll never be playing it for as much as decks like Sultai do. I can see casting it for 4-6 mana, drawing and gaining 1-3 and getting a 2/2-4/4 flample. Not bad if we can protect it, but definitely a late game card.
Ok I agree about Krasis so maybe thats settled. Ill take it out of my deck.
I think we should stop playing bad cards. If pteramnder and champion are not good lets not play them. I really wanted champion to be goyf but its not even close. Gruul spell breaker and enigma drake are very strong 3 drops and even merfolk branchwalker smooths out the deck and gives a 3/2 early on. I love it in conjunction with growthchamber guardian.
Does anyone else have any game results? I am somewhere around 45-33 with the deck with most of the wins coming since I made my most recent changes.
I just swapped a creature with the 24th land. Originally I had 22 only, and then went to 23 and now 24. It seems high but I want to cast Frilled Mystic and mid-late game I want to cast 2 counters per turn. That way I can always win the counter war which is important.
Btws, I just beat Golgari with a game that was the definition of tempo. Landed an early Pteramander and then used Frilled Mystic to counter a Chupacabra, and then smashed for 8 after adapting the bird. Spell pierce and dive down all played a part with a lovely top decked Lava Coil to clear the path to victory. I'm a huge fan of Bant tempo right now, but this deck looks sweet too.
Also, I have played 3 quick matches with the deck and went 1-2. Ok yes that is a tiny sample size, but...wow. So much fun. The games were so interactive...this is the type of magic that I love. Currently I swapped out 4 Discovery for 2 Anticipate nad 2 Chemister's insight. Playing at instant speed is very important for this deck I think.
4x Breeding Pool
4x Hinterland Harbor
1x Island
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Steam Vents
4x Stomping Ground
4x Sulfur Falls
Sorcery
4x Chart a Course
4x Lava Coil
1x Blink of an Eye
2x Dive Down
3x Ionize
4x Opt
3x Risk Factor
4x Shock
Creature
4x Frilled Mystic
4x Growth-Chamber Guardian
4x Pteramander
1x Beacon Bolt
3x Carnage Tyrant
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Negate
2x Spell Pierce
1x Niv-Mizzet, Parun
1x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
2x Fiery Cannonade
2x Crushing Canopy
I also came to the conclusion that there was perhaps one too many lands in the main and considering how many cards this deck tends to see, I felt comfortable cutting down to 23. I'm primarily a full-on control player, so I always like to play more lands than most people and I HATE missing land drops (hell, I've played as many as 29 in a Standard control deck before), so my own personal bias led me to stick with 24 for the longest time, where 23 is probably just fine too. The mana requirements are pretty stringent and I couldn't rationalize cutting any of the two-color lands, so Island was the only reasonable cut.
I also cut one Risk Factor as I was winning many games without even casting it, but I still like having the pressure it can create. Three copies still gives us reliability in drawing it if we want it and every copy we do see is effectively two, so there were some games where I was getting clogged on them.
In place of these two cuts, I added the fourth Pteramander and the fourth Lava Coil to the main. In the sideboard, the Lava Coil is obviously no longer there and I've also changed a number of cards around. Carnage Tyrant was overperforming every time I played it, so I went up to a third copy and cut a Niv-Mizzet for it. Niv is obviously strong, but in my experience Tyrant was more effective at doing what our deck wants to do most of the time. I also cut one Negate, one Banefire, and the last Shivan Fire to give us four open slots (Lava Coil moving to the main being the fourth) with which to place two Spell Pierce and two Crushing Canopy.
I felt like I wanted a bit more action against the mono-U decks since their post-board games often have them with a million one mana plays to protect their Curiously Obsessed dudes and will often only leave a single mana up for this purpose. Spell Pierce can force the issue on Shock or Coil, which is really all you need to do in that matchup. You aren't necessarily trying to race them or whatever; I'd say more often than not you can shift into the control role since you have actual removal and a Carnage Tyrant endgame that they can't possibly hope to beat if they don't have Tempest Djinn rollin'. Spell Pierce is also just a serviceable card against control decks if you see it early enough; much better than a Shock or Lava Coil, anyway.
The Crushing Canopy are in because I wanted some interaction for the number of punishing enchantments that are out there, namely Wilderness Reclamation, Rhythm of the Wild, and the red card advantage enchantments. The fact that it also doubles up as a way to pick off Doom Whisperers, Lyras, opposing Niv-Mizzets and Pteramanders, along with all the meaningful drakes threats is also nice.
Banefire ended up being a bit too situational and cutesy. It felt like kind of a throwaway sideboard slot, so it got the axe. I also decided to keep a split of Disdainful Stroke and Negate since against the control decks they both counter the most important cards, but Stroke can come in as an additional card against Golgari or other green midrange decks whereas Negate may often be dead.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Sorry, Im asking a lot of questions. Decks like this that arent mainstream tend to have fewer ppl working,, so just trying to explore all avenues
It's important to have something useful to do when your opponent does nothing of consequence on their turn. Unless things are going completely horrible, either side of Risk Factor should be good. They can only take four damage so many times before they have to start giving you cards instead and you have a lot of good things to draw into; either way the card resolves, it's usually good for you.
You can experiment with other cards if you want to (of course), but something like Lightning Strike seems significantly worse to me. That card is always just three damage... low floor, low ceiling. Risk Factor represents two spells, a mana sink (important when trying to leverage counterspells), something to do if you start flooding out, and ends up in some combination of damage, cards in hand, or your opponent using resources to stop it (countering either half or whatever).
Don't ever worry about asking questions; that's what drives conversation, after all 👍
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I have three Ionize main, for what it's worth. You can always play more counterspells if you want, but this configuration has worked quite well for me so far.
Removal is removal; sometimes they'll have it, sometimes they won't, and sometimes you'll be able to stop them even when they do. Guardian is your best bet at grinding through removal since you can get replacement copies pretty easy. In the matchups where you are facing piles of removal, bring in your Carnage Tyrants, Ral, and counterspells. Presumably most often these decks won't have a lot of creatures, so you can side out your removal and just be more threat dense.
I beat a Rakdos dude who was using every piece of burn he had to try and keep my guys off the table and because he eventually ran out of it, I drew a Pteramander to clock him for a few turns. Game two, he essentially scooped to my turn six Carnage Tyrant. He had brought in Drill Bit to try and disrupt my hand, but instead of taking the Tyrant on turn two, he took a Guardian. When he went to Drill Bit me on his turn six, I countered it and slammed the Tyrant on his face the turn after.
It's tough to say exactly how to play every match, but your guys are kind of expected to die against people packing 10+ removal spells. Your best bet is to try and get stuff into play early and protect your lead. Barring that, play somewhat conservatively if you have the time to do so. If you have Dive Down, consider playing a turn off curve so that you can always have it up.
Also, don't leave yourself vulnerable on critical turns by fighting over something that doesn't really matter in the long run. For example, don't counter a removal spell on your dude if your opponent could untap and slam Teferi or something like that. It's better to let one of your replaceable creatures die and keep the shields up to prevent anything truly problematic from happening.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
First: Lightning strike is still good...being able to have removal that can go face when u need is very good...the removal part is most important, but I just ended a game going bolt, bolt, bolt...erg...derp I mean strike strike strike.
Second: Pteramnder is apparently tearing up legacy, but I'm not sure how goo it is here...for me it seemed like a 1/1 for 90% of the time. Because we only have opt as a 1 mana cantrip, my graveyard was rarely filled until turn 6+.
Third:Frilled Mystic is insane. Growth Chamber Guardian is insane, but those were the only two to strike me. I'm still keeping 3 Pteramnders for now, but we need a fast way to fill up the graveyard to make it a 5/5 early. I play 3 Divedown and 2 Spell pierce and 3 Quench as early interaction, but still its tough.
Fourth: Playing at instant speed is a big deal with Frilled in the deck. I cant tap out to play chart a course if I'm holding up mystic mana. If this deck is to become a thing, it needs, I think, to either go lower to the ground with more instant/sorceries for Pteramander, or find a way to play more often on our opponent's turn.
Fifth: Canman you seem to be having success with the deck. It would be helpful to have some video evidence of how the deck should function, so if you ever feel the desire to film some matches....I'd love it
These tempo'esque decks have been on my radar for some time now and have been hoarding some cards for quite some time, but me and my playgroup have been out of standard for a while so i'm not quite up there in terms of what's hot and what's not.
Can someone explain why this deck doesn't run Deeproot Champion and the two drakes in some configuration for a more "miracle grow" style of play?
I had envisioned a deck where Incubation // Incongruity alongside those could be a thing.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Ok so lets chat about light up the stage. It seems like a 1 mana draw 2...I had not thought of it before. Now a problem to think about. What if you draw expensive cards that u cant cast? Good idea though...I'm in a brewing mood. Hopefully others will stick around long enough to test and provide feedback.
Deeproot Champion. I really would love this to be good...finally havie Tarmogoyf in a RUG deck feels good. Problem is he is a 1/1 to start which is tiny. Second, Growth Chamber Guardian can get to be a 4/4 while also tutoring for a copy of itself. Maybe I should look back at him though...Pteramander is not great early in this deck...I'll put some back it.
Can you elaborate on how Incubation could be good? Remember decks like this tend to run fewer than 16 creatures and 3 mana to give an opponent a 3/3 is not a great rate
Thinking of building this.
Have you guys run into any issues with your opponents responding to your adapt activations on growth chamber guardians? Wondering if y'all can give me any pointers of when you find yourself fighting over these and the activations.
Let me edit this...I've been playing with a slightly more aggressive list and it just eats combo...these reclaimation decks are basically a bye. Currently I am playing 9 counters plus 4 Frilled Mystic main, with 3 negates side. Perhaps you all can comment on it.
20 Creatures
4 Growth-Chamber Guardian (RNA) 128
4 Merfolk Branchwalker (XLN) 197
3 Thorn Lieutenant (M19) 203
4 Gruul Spellbreaker (RNA) 179
4 Frilled Mystic (RNA) 174
1 Hydroid Krasis (RNA) 183
17 Non Creatures
3 Spell Pierce (XLN) 81
3 Quench (RNA) 48
3 Ionize (GRN) 179
4 Shock (M19) 156
4 Lava Coil (GRN) 108
3 Stomping Ground (RNA) 259
4 Breeding Pool (RNA) 246
4 Steam Vents (GRN) 257
3 Sulfur Falls (DAR) 247
2 Rootbound Crag (XLN) 256
3 Hinterland Harbor (DAR) 240
2 Island (RIX) 193
2 Forest (RIX) 196
3 Negate (RIX) 44
2 Carnage Tyrant (XLN) 179
2 Crushing Canopy (GRN) 126
4 Wildgrowth Walker (XLN) 216
4 Jadelight Ranger (RIX) 136
Basically the idea is to drop 2 aggressive creatures and counter that one important spell that the control deck needs to resolve. Not sure how it will work against midrange. I think bigger decks like golgari should be good against this, but since it is already good vs control, and now with the cheaper green creatures, red is easier, so basically we hope to not play midranged decks
In the games I've played I've occassionally been light on mana and sometimes just wish for a Spell Pierce or that Lava Coil was Lightning Strike for the instant-speed interaction.
Has anyone else felt similarly? Are there any changes the deck needs to combat Sultai?
I'm thinking of switching Coil to Strike too. There are a few x/4 creatures, like drakes, but not many. Have you felt that version was powerful? How has pteramander? I've only had it been a 5/5 twice I think.
Pteramander was almost always a 1/1 for me. It wasn't the damage it dealt as much as the threat of Adapting and that damage. It threw off their combat math because I had so many options to respond with which is why I'm also considering Lightning Strike. They know I can't remove threats on their turn with Lava Coil so they can focus on avoiding counters. The only threats that are a potential problem then are Drakes and Rekindling Phoenix, neither of which are as prevalent as they once were. This deck wins on the back your of opponents mistakes which they make because they don't know how we'll interact on their turn.
I'm also considering Spell Pierce, but I have no idea what I'd remove for them.
Can you post your decklist? Is it the same as the original decklist? I feel like a tempo deck like this cannot function without cheap counters like Spell Pierce or Dive Down. I'm not playing Dive Down at the moment, but pierce has been one of the deck's mvps
I could be very wrong, but i figured those are exactly the reasons why
Because the deck i had in mind only runs 12~16 creatures, and I want to find a Deeproot Champion as and drop it as early as turn 2 if possible or turn 3 when i have protection for it, an openening hand without creatures but with Incubation // Incongruity would be keepable. Late game, the card doubles as an exile spell for creatures which don't die to "bolt" and thus you can skip Lava Coil.
Unfortunately I can't judge how much of a downside the 3/3 would be. As i said, i've been out of standard for a while.
As a rough basis i was thinking somewhere along the lines of:
4 Steam Vents
4 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Deeproot Champion
4 Enigma Drake
3 Crackling Drake
2 Frilled Mystic
2 Hydroid Krasis
Spells 24
4 Opt
2 Dive Down
3 Spell Pierce
3 Shock
4 Incubation // Incongruity
2 Growth Spiral
4 Lightning Strike
2 Ionize
Notes:
Frilled Mystic is in there because it fits the tempo theme. Originally i had more Ionize
Growth Spiral is a pretty nifty way to make use of you two mana on turn 2 to either make your turn 3 setup less painful or just ramp.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Here's what I have right now. I agree that Spell Pierce probably deserves a spot, but over what I can't say. Syncopate is another card that keeps popping up on my radar. It seems like it has potential up and down the curve. Everything has proven valuable at times with potentially Risk Factor and Pteramander being the weakest.
Land: 23
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Steam Vents
3 Stomping Ground
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Rootbound Crag
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures: 12
4 Pteramander
4 Growth-Chamber Guardian
4 Frilled Mystic
Other Spells: 25
3 Ionize
4 Opt
4 Chart A Course
4 Lightning Strike
3 Risk Factor
3 Dive Down
4 Shock
Sideboard: 15
3 Carnage Tyrant
3 Fiery Cannonade
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
3 Lava Coil
2 Crushing Canopy
Pteramander might be better in a more spell-focused shell, maybe Izzet Drakes with Arclight Phoenix. I've been trying to find something that might replace it, but the only option I've come up with is Deeproot Champion. It's not ideal, but it's a threat that grows while we're doing what we want to do anyway.
Adapt is an ability that fits right into what we want to do with the deck as it's instant speed and increases our options. It allows us to play an early body, protect it, and present a threat when we're ready. Guardian also happens to find more of itself which is an incredible upside.
Also, Ive been struggling a bit more lately...probly around a 50% win rate which is fine but not what I was doing earlier. Im wondering if Krassis could be a good sideboard slot vs midrange
I don't think Champion is ever really great, but is it better than Pteramander in this deck? Situationally probably.
Krasis could be a decent sideboard card, but we'll never be playing it for as much as decks like Sultai do. I can see casting it for 4-6 mana, drawing and gaining 1-3 and getting a 2/2-4/4 flample. Not bad if we can protect it, but definitely a late game card.
I think we should stop playing bad cards. If pteramnder and champion are not good lets not play them. I really wanted champion to be goyf but its not even close. Gruul spell breaker and enigma drake are very strong 3 drops and even merfolk branchwalker smooths out the deck and gives a 3/2 early on. I love it in conjunction with growthchamber guardian.
Does anyone else have any game results? I am somewhere around 45-33 with the deck with most of the wins coming since I made my most recent changes.
I just swapped a creature with the 24th land. Originally I had 22 only, and then went to 23 and now 24. It seems high but I want to cast Frilled Mystic and mid-late game I want to cast 2 counters per turn. That way I can always win the counter war which is important.