Hey, all. I'm back again with another "here's what I'll be playing" thread for the upcoming format once Ravnica Allegiance is let loose on us all. Even though my Jeskai list from the initial post I made months ago is wildly different than the decks we see today, at least I was mostly on the right track so hopefully this deck pans out as well.
First thing's first, I have to credit Gerry Thompson for coming up with the base list for this one. I don't want to take credit for it since it was basically his creation, but I hope to be able to bring some attention to it and help craft it into a well-tuned machine. Also, this is with actual Magic in mind; none of this best of one nonsense, so YMMV if you play this on Arena.
Let's start with the list so that you can get a feel for it before we break it down:
Essentially, this deck is looking to maximize the power of Frilled Mystic and for those of you who've been playing long enough to recall how great it feels to resolve a Mystic Snake when you're even slightly ahead, this list is for you. To this end, we are playing a large amount of ways to utilize the pressure that Frilled Mystic provides so that if your opponent doesn't play into it or the other interactive cards we have, they will get max punished. The full sets of both Growth-Chamber Guardian and Risk Factor are your big plays in this context and will allow you to push your advantage either in meaningful cards in hand or by dealing large chunks of damage three mana at a time (and Guardian can kind of accomplish both at once).
If your opponent instead elects to play into your Mystics, Ionizes, or other assorted interaction then they risk falling even farther behind (especially in the case of Mystic). If you play Guardian on two, interact or Adapt on three, and Mystic on four... you can just about wrap that game up. On the flip side of things, this is still a Chart a Course deck with a number of cheap enablers, so your gameplan doesn't even need to be that flashy to be strong. Pteramander on one, Chart a Course on two, and tapped land/Opt/Shock a threat on three is a perfectly reasonable sequence. More often than not your early game is going to be quite strong against anyone not looking to curve a bunch of one drops on you (which you can address post-board anyway).
So the deck is filled with relatively efficient interaction, creatures, and ways to put your opponent in the squeeze. Seems great against midrange and control decks, but what are you soft to?
Well, as mentioned, I'm not particularly hot on matches where you are looking at one-drop, two one-drops, Benalish Marshal or something like that. Also, both Niv-Mizzet and Carnage Tyrant can be a pain if your opponent gets there. That being said, you have the ability to present a reasonable clock against the Niv-Mizzet and Carnage Tyrant decks and a better midgame than most of the aggro decks that we are aware of at the moment. You have enough disruption that even in these situations you should often be able to craft a game state where you can eek wins out even when faced with these problems. Dorks can be burned away, Niv can be beaten by going wider than they can contain, as can Carnage Tyrant who also gets flown over.
The sideboard is purely speculative for now, but that's to be expected when we don't have much of a framework for the format. I do like having access to the anti-control haymakers of both Carnage Tyrant and Niv-Mizzet to replace our crappy removal in those matchups and the Island comes in alongside them to make introducing four six-drops a bit more bearable. Beyond that, there are tools to tweak your numbers against midrange decks, give you some more ammo against aggro decks, and a couple "wild cards' in Beacon Bolt and Ral, Izzet Viceroy. I say "wild cards" because I don't necessarily know what else I might want and they have applications in different situations that may come up; I'm certainly not saying they're the best options.
Some quick observations:
- Re: Pteramander. I've found in my admittedly limited experience with the deck that when you play a "normal" game where you have a decent mix of everything and aren't super heavy on the instant/sorcery aspect of the deck, you can expect to be able to adapt in the range of 3-5 mana somewhere around turn four or five. Not insane, but just another thing to do when you don't have to counter something. You will have draws where an early Pteramander flip is a thing though, so try to recognize when it's appropriate to go for it or play more conservatively.
- If you have a draw that contains both Guardian and Dive Down with the ability to play both on three, consider waiting until that turn to commit the creature. There aren't a lot of one-mana removal spells being playing at the moment that can actually kill a 2/2, so your Dive Down should very nearly always be able to trade up on mana and you can punish them the turn after.
- I think more often than not, adapting Guardian as early as possible is better than doing almost anything else. You are a tempo deck, after all, and your goal is to pressure your opponent to force their hand. A Grizzly Bear isn't very threatening, but a Bear that doubles in size the turn after can be all the difference. Prioritize this over drawing cards if the choice is Chart a Course or EOT Risk Factor. Unless you feel like you might get blown out with removal in the attempt, it's better to have the largest creature in play as soon as is feasible. Not to mention you want to get the most card advantage possible with his triggered ability and the less copies of Guardian you draw naturally will facilitate this goal.
- This should be obvious, but ALWAYS lead on Mystic when you have a choice between it, Ionize, or some other counterspell. This is, again, because you are trying to utilize the tempo of plays like that to limit your opponent's window of time to recover. Also, it's your most mana-inefficient counterspell so get it in when the opportunity presents itself.
So there it is, guys. A pretty brief rundown of the archetype, but there is certainly much more discussion to be had. I think this deck looks like a ton of fun and has a lot of room for customization. Do you want Rhythm of the Wilds or Hadana's Climb for more angles to explore? Should we consider Gruul Spellbreaker somewhere in the 75? Do we want some fat in the main in case the main plan fails to execute? Lots of different ways to build this deck, but as long as the fundamental core of Mystic + ways to punish your opponent at instant-speed remains then I feel like it's hard to go too wrong.
Let's hear your thoughts and see what we kind of monster we can turn this into.
Just a quick note: If you're looking to capitalize on the Mystic, Siren's Ruse would be a very nice inclusion, even if you don't have any pirates. Once the first Mystic comes down, the opponent will probably be wary when you have GGUU open. Not so wary if you have "only" two mana (one blue, obviously).
A cool interaction, to be sure, however I'd want to have more than four creatures that it profitably interacts with before I consider it. I guess in a pinch it can save your creature from removal or combat or whatever, but seems a bit too narrow with the list as-is.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
So I've been doing some testing with your list on Arena, pretty dang strong. I really haven't done enough matches to say one way or the other what should and shouldn't be in the deck, just that it's been strong against what I've seen. I should have some more info for you later on this evening when I get done with some more testing on it.
Edit: I will say, and this may just be the Arena RNG, but it feels a little land heavy at times.
So I've been doing some testing with your list on Arena, pretty dang strong. I really haven't done enough matches to say one way or the other what should and shouldn't be in the deck, just that it's been strong against what I've seen. I should have some more info for you later on this evening when I get done with some more testing on it.
Edit: I will say, and this may just be the Arena RNG, but it feels a little land heavy at times.
Excellent! Glad to hear you've been having some success with it. I certainly think the land count is up for discussion as well, though I'd be wary of cutting more than one land. I think between the card drawing and adapt abilities, you certainly have enough to be doing with you mana the majority of the time, but I'll need to test it more myself to know one way or the other.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Maybe going down 1 Breeding Pool or Stomping Ground and pull in a Carnage Tyrant or Niv-Mizzet, Parun as a heavy hitter or card draw/pinger. I think I'm leaning toward Carnage Tyrant just due to the hexproof factor, as the main deck has a pretty solid card draw and damage engine as it is. May shore up those games where you're behind on board and facing an opposing Tyrant or similar across the table.
Maybe going down 1 Breeding Pool or Stomping Ground and pull in a Carnage Tyrant or Niv-Mizzet, Parun as a heavy hitter or card draw/pinger. I think I'm leaning toward Carnage Tyrant just due to the hexproof factor, as the main deck has a pretty solid card draw and damage engine as it is. May shore up those games where you're behind on board and facing an opposing Tyrant or similar across the table.
I could definitely see that, though cutting a land for a six-drop seems a bit dubious. Maybe it's fine since you aren't likely to see the Tyrant until you're good and ready to cast it.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
I could definitely see that, though cutting a land for a six-drop seems a bit dubious. Maybe it's fine since you aren't likely to see the Tyrant until you're good and ready to cast it.
I could certainly see it being a dead draw in some situations, anything where you're able to tempo on curve I could see it being dead. However I think there's enough draw and churn in the deck to mitigate some of those instances. I've had great success against the drake decks, Dimir discard, RDW, etc. so far. Now obviously the amount of decks depending on how you're playing arena (best of 1 or best of 3) varies greatly, and even varies greatly from paper or MTGO. So far though as a best of 1 deck it's brought me through a single 7-0, and a single 7-1, so not bad in that department I would say at all.
Based on the current meta state at least on Arena, maybe a few Fiery Cannonade in the board as aggro is super prevalent thus far. I find anything that generates a lot of tokens is a little harder to handle, got absolutely destroyed by a Saproling deck earlier.
Why is Growth-Chamber Guardian the 2-drop of choice ?
It doesn't seem great (outside of Elf tribal decks) as a 2/2 with some slow mana sink ability.
As a value 2-drop I'd consider Thorn Lieutenant as it fares bettter against removal and opposing 2/2 creatures.
Another option can be Deeproot Champion which works well in the spell-heavy build and can grow pretty fast.
Guardian gets much larger relatively quickly. It's the type of card that comes down early and punches your opponent square in the jaw if they start to let it do its thing. It also finds other copies of itself; an ability neither of the other cards can do.
Both of the cards you bring up aren't bad choices either, but I feel Guardian is better as the baseline threat.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Based on the current meta state at least on Arena, maybe a few Fiery Cannonade in the board as aggro is super prevalent thus far. I find anything that generates a lot of tokens is a little harder to handle, got absolutely destroyed by a Saproling deck earlier.
Certainly a card I considered. I can definitely see the appeal.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
This looks like it has a hard time closing the game out. Is there a reason you aren't playing Enigma Drake?
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
This looks like it has a hard time closing the game out. Is there a reason you aren't playing Enigma Drake?
It actually isn't too bad, in my experience. If you fall behind on the board it can be a bit problematic, but Pteramander is a huge flyer that most decks that present that problem aren't very well equipped to beat. For example, I just beat an elves player that had two Clancallers AND a Vanquisher's Banner in play and between trading off Guardians and using a couple removal spells I was able to contain it and fly over the top with two Pteramanders; I didn't even Adapt them until he was at 10 and I presented lethal in one turn. Certainly a close game, but I won in the end.
As for Enigma Drake, I feel like three mana is somewhat of an awkward spot for a creature in this deck because ideally you want to have something in play within the first two turns and then sit back and react according to what your opponent does. Tapping out on turn three isn't as appealing to me, but it could be worth trying out. There are also games (like the one I just mentioned) where I don't have a non-creature spell in my draw until my turn seven Opt... I think individually, the threats in the deck are good enough on their own and don't necessarily require jumping through hoops to make work, whereas the Drake needs some things to be going right to begin with.
I could see giving it a shot, but right now I haven't felt a need for it.
- Pteramander is actually nuts. It's been so good that I've tried justifying the fourth copy somewhere in the deck, but I can't figure out what to cut for the life of me.
- I tried dumping one Stomping Ground for the fourth Pteramander, but I wasn't convinced this was right and have since reverted the change.
- Found myself in a couple of situations where ripping a burn spell (even a shock) would have won the game on the spot. Since we're maxed on Shock already and there isn't really anything else I would really want (Lightning Strike is pretty medium), I decided to cut one of the Disdainful Strokes in the board for a single Banefire. I haven't touched Stroke yet, so it seemed like the easiest cut and I still want the Island in the board for the moment. There's a chance it might come out and if so, I'll put the second Stroke back in if I haven't thought of anything better.
- Speaking of the sideboard, I trimmed two copies of Shivan Fire for two Fiery Cannonades. Played a couple matches today where it would have been extremely useful. Still won both of those, but Cannonade would have made it much simpler.
Didn't have a ton of time to play a million matches overall, but I did play against Elves, Mardu Humans, Mono-U, and Jund. Only lost to Jund, but it was super close. This is one match where I wanted another burn spell since Doom Whisperer is pretty hard to get around when the rest of the board is more or less at parity. Could have definitely won both games with Banefire. Also, my mana was a bit fickle and I didn't have triple red for Niv on turn six and didn't see it until several turns after. Based on how the game played out, my opponent had very little interaction (Rhythm of the Wilds makes that more difficult as a deckbuilding cost), so the Niv would have easily carried me to victory.
Overall, the deck has felt very strong. These particular adapt creatures are the real deal, no question about it. Openers with Pteramander and Chart a Course haven't lost yet, with the exception of one of my games against Jund, and Guardian is an amazing card all on its own. I'm excited to continue working on this and hopefully streamline it even more!
Glad to see you were seeing the same need for Fiery Cannonade as well, I made the swap with Shavian Fire as a direct replacement. Also dropped a Stomping Ground in the main for the Carnage Tyrant, has played pretty well in control match-ups as a "gotcha" in game one. The only time I board in Disdainful Stroke is against Jeskai control (still seeing some on Arena), and it's a game winner on its own against a settle or Angel of Grace. I'm torn on Ral at this point, as I haven't had occasion to utilize him in any matches so far. Holding it's own in best of 3 matches pretty solidly so far with a 6-2 and a 7-1, currently running through at a 5-1 with a couple of games to play, will get those wrapped up this evening.
Great to see some people working on this type of deck. I tried a similar list with Deeproot Champion and the list felt bad. Lost to aggro and lost to control. I have been wanting to try growth chamber. Keep working!
Great to see some people working on this type of deck. I tried a similar list with Deeproot Champion and the list felt bad. Lost to aggro and lost to control. I have been wanting to try growth chamber. Keep working!
Yeah, Deeproot Champion seems pretty medium to me. Great on turn two, but pretty mopey later in the game. At least Growth-Chamber Guardian can be a 4/4 without any other assistance if you rip it in the mid/late game.
The only development I've made today was replacing the Island in the board with the third Rootbound Crag. I felt like I wanted an extra green source to facilitate more reliable Frilled Mystics, but I also wanted it to be able to cast Niv-Mizzet in those games as well. Seeing as how we're maxed on UG lands as it is, Rootbound Crag was the next best option. Certainly fine in those slower matchups anyway where you aren't as pressed to have your mana come out perfect in the first three turns.
I won't have this ready to go for FNM this week, but I should have it the following week. So for now I'll just keep grinding on MTGO; can't wait to play it in paper, though!
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
So, what does this deck beat? I could play tempo decks all day, and enjoy my UB pirates deck and obviously mono blue is good...both beat control well, but they are also a lot lower to the ground than this. I doubt this wins vs aggro or midrange...so what does it beat?
So, what does this deck beat? I could play tempo decks all day, and enjoy my UB pirates deck and obviously mono blue is good...both beat control well, but they are also a lot lower to the ground than this. I doubt this wins vs aggro or midrange...so what does it beat?
I've literally beat every opponent I've played against so far, with the exception of one. Most of the decks I've played against are actually aggressive decks (elves, mono-u, mardu humans), with the occasional clunky control deck here or there.
The only thing I've lost to at this point was a Jund player and it was easily winnable had I not punted. I misclicked on paying two life for a Stomping Ground that would have allowed me to play Niv-Mizzet and because of that I came up a couple points short in the end.
Arglebargles has been reporting his own success with the deck as well and to be honest he's probably played against more variety of decks than I have at this point.
Against aggressive decks you have a lot of cheap removal and ways to get on the board to leverage it. Guardian frequently outclasses most aggro decks' threats once it's adapted and you also tend to see more cards than they do. Post board you get to bring in the Cannonades to help keep things under control and can pivot to a Niv-Mizzet deck, which will easily win you the game the majority of the time you get to that point.
Against midrange it really depends on what they're doing. If they don't have a lot of cheap removal, you can really lean on your countermagic to stay ahead on the board and use your own removal to clear a path. Frilled Mystic is a beating against these decks since you are often able to use it to counter a play at mana parity and increase your clock at the same time.
Personally, I think this deck has the tools to beat just about any deck that's a known quantity right now. That's not to say it's invincible, but all your matches are winnable with tight play and a pinch of luck (which you need in any given game of Magic anyway).
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
What is a good replacement for the Carnage Tyrants in the SB? I assume they are for against control and you bring in Rootbound with them? Is Nullhide Ferox doable, or would it be too awkward with your own spells?
Few games I have played so far, it feels like Risk Factor is way too situational to work. You can't really afford to spent 3 mana do nothing in most games where you are trying to maneuver.
Id agree that Risk Factor does not seem good here. I could see 4x lava coil or lightning strike. Also I feel like you want some number of broad counters bsides Frilled and divedown.
In modern/legacy ppl play Temur bc lightning bolt is so good. Without bolt is there a major reason to go red bsides loving the color combo?
If you check out Jeff Hoogland on youtube, yesterday he made some changes to his bant tempo deck, adding in Guardian...seems strong.
Yeah, Guardian is the real deal. I think without access to that card, almost specifically, this deck wouldn't really be possible. I think once a person sits down and plays games with it versus the other options they'll see the difference almost immediately.
What is a good replacement for the Carnage Tyrants in the SB? I assume they are for against control and you bring in Rootbound with them? Is Nullhide Ferox doable, or would it be too awkward with your own spells?
Few games I have played so far, it feels like Risk Factor is way too situational to work. You can't really afford to spent 3 mana do nothing in most games where you are trying to maneuver.
Yeah, Carnage Tyrants come in against basically any blue deck, along with the extra land. Nullhide is a beefy dude, but it doesn't play well with the other counterspells and card drawing you want in the deck, especially post-board. You can try it, but my instinct is to say that it isn't suited for this style of deck; too many non-creatures.
I've actually ended up shaving a Risk Factor because it was the card that most often was kind of "meh" and I wanted to find room for the fourth Pteramander, so it got the axe. That being said, I did have a game last night where my mono-U opponent allowed me to draw three cards while he was at 11 life and facing down two of my creatures and I drew a Shock and Lava Coil, which allowed me to clear his board of Tempest Djinn and a Curious 1/1 of some variety. So, it may not always do exactly what you want it to do, but in games of parity it can present a super awkward decision for your opponent, which is the idea.
I'll post a fully updated list later tonight when I have a bit more time, since I did end up changing a few things around.
Id agree that Risk Factor does not seem good here. I could see 4x lava coil or lightning strike. Also I feel like you want some number of broad counters bsides Frilled and divedown.
In modern/legacy ppl play Temur bc lightning bolt is so good. Without bolt is there a major reason to go red bsides loving the color combo?
At the moment there are a lot of little creatures running around and being able to pick them off for one mana with Shock is pretty important. Also, Lava Coil is pretty much the premier removal spell in the format and kills almost everything you want it to with a few exceptions. You could try straight UG or whatnot, but I suspect you would have a much harder time keeping the board clear enough to pressure your opponent with the creature suite as-is.
Plus, Ionize is such a back-breaker a lot of the time. The two damage tacked onto a counterspell is exactly what this deck wants and it's the card that Suffocating Blast always wanted to be. It's not uncommon to have two creatures in play, Ionize their play, and then untap and adapt both creatures and kill them; and you can threaten that line with them being at 10-12 life, depending on what creatures we're talking about. It's pretty insane.
Hey, all. I'm back again with another "here's what I'll be playing" thread for the upcoming format once Ravnica Allegiance is let loose on us all. Even though my Jeskai list from the initial post I made months ago is wildly different than the decks we see today, at least I was mostly on the right track so hopefully this deck pans out as well.
First thing's first, I have to credit Gerry Thompson for coming up with the base list for this one. I don't want to take credit for it since it was basically his creation, but I hope to be able to bring some attention to it and help craft it into a well-tuned machine. Also, this is with actual Magic in mind; none of this best of one nonsense, so YMMV if you play this on Arena.
Let's start with the list so that you can get a feel for it before we break it down:
4x Breeding Pool
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Island
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Steam Vents
4x Stomping Ground
4x Sulfur Falls
Sorcery
4x Chart a Course
3x Lava Coil
1x Blink of an Eye
2x Dive Down
3x Ionize
4x Opt
4x Risk Factor
4x Shock
Creature
4x Frilled Mystic
4x Growth-Chamber Guardian
3x Pteramander
1x Beacon Bolt
2x Carnage Tyrant
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Island
1x Lava Coil
2x Negate
2x Niv-Mizzet, Parun
1x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
3x Shivan Fire
Tappedout.net link if you want to goldfish it (I will update this whenever changes are made):
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-01-19-QWg-temur-tempo/?cb=1547623881
Essentially, this deck is looking to maximize the power of Frilled Mystic and for those of you who've been playing long enough to recall how great it feels to resolve a Mystic Snake when you're even slightly ahead, this list is for you. To this end, we are playing a large amount of ways to utilize the pressure that Frilled Mystic provides so that if your opponent doesn't play into it or the other interactive cards we have, they will get max punished. The full sets of both Growth-Chamber Guardian and Risk Factor are your big plays in this context and will allow you to push your advantage either in meaningful cards in hand or by dealing large chunks of damage three mana at a time (and Guardian can kind of accomplish both at once).
If your opponent instead elects to play into your Mystics, Ionizes, or other assorted interaction then they risk falling even farther behind (especially in the case of Mystic). If you play Guardian on two, interact or Adapt on three, and Mystic on four... you can just about wrap that game up. On the flip side of things, this is still a Chart a Course deck with a number of cheap enablers, so your gameplan doesn't even need to be that flashy to be strong. Pteramander on one, Chart a Course on two, and tapped land/Opt/Shock a threat on three is a perfectly reasonable sequence. More often than not your early game is going to be quite strong against anyone not looking to curve a bunch of one drops on you (which you can address post-board anyway).
So the deck is filled with relatively efficient interaction, creatures, and ways to put your opponent in the squeeze. Seems great against midrange and control decks, but what are you soft to?
Well, as mentioned, I'm not particularly hot on matches where you are looking at one-drop, two one-drops, Benalish Marshal or something like that. Also, both Niv-Mizzet and Carnage Tyrant can be a pain if your opponent gets there. That being said, you have the ability to present a reasonable clock against the Niv-Mizzet and Carnage Tyrant decks and a better midgame than most of the aggro decks that we are aware of at the moment. You have enough disruption that even in these situations you should often be able to craft a game state where you can eek wins out even when faced with these problems. Dorks can be burned away, Niv can be beaten by going wider than they can contain, as can Carnage Tyrant who also gets flown over.
The sideboard is purely speculative for now, but that's to be expected when we don't have much of a framework for the format. I do like having access to the anti-control haymakers of both Carnage Tyrant and Niv-Mizzet to replace our crappy removal in those matchups and the Island comes in alongside them to make introducing four six-drops a bit more bearable. Beyond that, there are tools to tweak your numbers against midrange decks, give you some more ammo against aggro decks, and a couple "wild cards' in Beacon Bolt and Ral, Izzet Viceroy. I say "wild cards" because I don't necessarily know what else I might want and they have applications in different situations that may come up; I'm certainly not saying they're the best options.
Some quick observations:
- Re: Pteramander. I've found in my admittedly limited experience with the deck that when you play a "normal" game where you have a decent mix of everything and aren't super heavy on the instant/sorcery aspect of the deck, you can expect to be able to adapt in the range of 3-5 mana somewhere around turn four or five. Not insane, but just another thing to do when you don't have to counter something. You will have draws where an early Pteramander flip is a thing though, so try to recognize when it's appropriate to go for it or play more conservatively.
- If you have a draw that contains both Guardian and Dive Down with the ability to play both on three, consider waiting until that turn to commit the creature. There aren't a lot of one-mana removal spells being playing at the moment that can actually kill a 2/2, so your Dive Down should very nearly always be able to trade up on mana and you can punish them the turn after.
- I think more often than not, adapting Guardian as early as possible is better than doing almost anything else. You are a tempo deck, after all, and your goal is to pressure your opponent to force their hand. A Grizzly Bear isn't very threatening, but a Bear that doubles in size the turn after can be all the difference. Prioritize this over drawing cards if the choice is Chart a Course or EOT Risk Factor. Unless you feel like you might get blown out with removal in the attempt, it's better to have the largest creature in play as soon as is feasible. Not to mention you want to get the most card advantage possible with his triggered ability and the less copies of Guardian you draw naturally will facilitate this goal.
- This should be obvious, but ALWAYS lead on Mystic when you have a choice between it, Ionize, or some other counterspell. This is, again, because you are trying to utilize the tempo of plays like that to limit your opponent's window of time to recover. Also, it's your most mana-inefficient counterspell so get it in when the opportunity presents itself.
So there it is, guys. A pretty brief rundown of the archetype, but there is certainly much more discussion to be had. I think this deck looks like a ton of fun and has a lot of room for customization. Do you want Rhythm of the Wilds or Hadana's Climb for more angles to explore? Should we consider Gruul Spellbreaker somewhere in the 75? Do we want some fat in the main in case the main plan fails to execute? Lots of different ways to build this deck, but as long as the fundamental core of Mystic + ways to punish your opponent at instant-speed remains then I feel like it's hard to go too wrong.
Let's hear your thoughts and see what we kind of monster we can turn this into.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Edit: I will say, and this may just be the Arena RNG, but it feels a little land heavy at times.
Excellent! Glad to hear you've been having some success with it. I certainly think the land count is up for discussion as well, though I'd be wary of cutting more than one land. I think between the card drawing and adapt abilities, you certainly have enough to be doing with you mana the majority of the time, but I'll need to test it more myself to know one way or the other.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I could definitely see that, though cutting a land for a six-drop seems a bit dubious. Maybe it's fine since you aren't likely to see the Tyrant until you're good and ready to cast it.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I could certainly see it being a dead draw in some situations, anything where you're able to tempo on curve I could see it being dead. However I think there's enough draw and churn in the deck to mitigate some of those instances. I've had great success against the drake decks, Dimir discard, RDW, etc. so far. Now obviously the amount of decks depending on how you're playing arena (best of 1 or best of 3) varies greatly, and even varies greatly from paper or MTGO. So far though as a best of 1 deck it's brought me through a single 7-0, and a single 7-1, so not bad in that department I would say at all.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
It doesn't seem great (outside of Elf tribal decks) as a 2/2 with some slow mana sink ability.
As a value 2-drop I'd consider Thorn Lieutenant as it fares bettter against removal and opposing 2/2 creatures.
Another option can be Deeproot Champion which works well in the spell-heavy build and can grow pretty fast.
Both of the cards you bring up aren't bad choices either, but I feel Guardian is better as the baseline threat.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Certainly a card I considered. I can definitely see the appeal.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
It actually isn't too bad, in my experience. If you fall behind on the board it can be a bit problematic, but Pteramander is a huge flyer that most decks that present that problem aren't very well equipped to beat. For example, I just beat an elves player that had two Clancallers AND a Vanquisher's Banner in play and between trading off Guardians and using a couple removal spells I was able to contain it and fly over the top with two Pteramanders; I didn't even Adapt them until he was at 10 and I presented lethal in one turn. Certainly a close game, but I won in the end.
As for Enigma Drake, I feel like three mana is somewhat of an awkward spot for a creature in this deck because ideally you want to have something in play within the first two turns and then sit back and react according to what your opponent does. Tapping out on turn three isn't as appealing to me, but it could be worth trying out. There are also games (like the one I just mentioned) where I don't have a non-creature spell in my draw until my turn seven Opt... I think individually, the threats in the deck are good enough on their own and don't necessarily require jumping through hoops to make work, whereas the Drake needs some things to be going right to begin with.
I could see giving it a shot, but right now I haven't felt a need for it.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
- Pteramander is actually nuts. It's been so good that I've tried justifying the fourth copy somewhere in the deck, but I can't figure out what to cut for the life of me.
- I tried dumping one Stomping Ground for the fourth Pteramander, but I wasn't convinced this was right and have since reverted the change.
- Found myself in a couple of situations where ripping a burn spell (even a shock) would have won the game on the spot. Since we're maxed on Shock already and there isn't really anything else I would really want (Lightning Strike is pretty medium), I decided to cut one of the Disdainful Strokes in the board for a single Banefire. I haven't touched Stroke yet, so it seemed like the easiest cut and I still want the Island in the board for the moment. There's a chance it might come out and if so, I'll put the second Stroke back in if I haven't thought of anything better.
- Speaking of the sideboard, I trimmed two copies of Shivan Fire for two Fiery Cannonades. Played a couple matches today where it would have been extremely useful. Still won both of those, but Cannonade would have made it much simpler.
Didn't have a ton of time to play a million matches overall, but I did play against Elves, Mardu Humans, Mono-U, and Jund. Only lost to Jund, but it was super close. This is one match where I wanted another burn spell since Doom Whisperer is pretty hard to get around when the rest of the board is more or less at parity. Could have definitely won both games with Banefire. Also, my mana was a bit fickle and I didn't have triple red for Niv on turn six and didn't see it until several turns after. Based on how the game played out, my opponent had very little interaction (Rhythm of the Wilds makes that more difficult as a deckbuilding cost), so the Niv would have easily carried me to victory.
Overall, the deck has felt very strong. These particular adapt creatures are the real deal, no question about it. Openers with Pteramander and Chart a Course haven't lost yet, with the exception of one of my games against Jund, and Guardian is an amazing card all on its own. I'm excited to continue working on this and hopefully streamline it even more!
Edit: Just saw this on TCGPlayer, lol:
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Yeah, Deeproot Champion seems pretty medium to me. Great on turn two, but pretty mopey later in the game. At least Growth-Chamber Guardian can be a 4/4 without any other assistance if you rip it in the mid/late game.
The only development I've made today was replacing the Island in the board with the third Rootbound Crag. I felt like I wanted an extra green source to facilitate more reliable Frilled Mystics, but I also wanted it to be able to cast Niv-Mizzet in those games as well. Seeing as how we're maxed on UG lands as it is, Rootbound Crag was the next best option. Certainly fine in those slower matchups anyway where you aren't as pressed to have your mana come out perfect in the first three turns.
I won't have this ready to go for FNM this week, but I should have it the following week. So for now I'll just keep grinding on MTGO; can't wait to play it in paper, though!
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I've literally beat every opponent I've played against so far, with the exception of one. Most of the decks I've played against are actually aggressive decks (elves, mono-u, mardu humans), with the occasional clunky control deck here or there.
The only thing I've lost to at this point was a Jund player and it was easily winnable had I not punted. I misclicked on paying two life for a Stomping Ground that would have allowed me to play Niv-Mizzet and because of that I came up a couple points short in the end.
Arglebargles has been reporting his own success with the deck as well and to be honest he's probably played against more variety of decks than I have at this point.
Against aggressive decks you have a lot of cheap removal and ways to get on the board to leverage it. Guardian frequently outclasses most aggro decks' threats once it's adapted and you also tend to see more cards than they do. Post board you get to bring in the Cannonades to help keep things under control and can pivot to a Niv-Mizzet deck, which will easily win you the game the majority of the time you get to that point.
Against midrange it really depends on what they're doing. If they don't have a lot of cheap removal, you can really lean on your countermagic to stay ahead on the board and use your own removal to clear a path. Frilled Mystic is a beating against these decks since you are often able to use it to counter a play at mana parity and increase your clock at the same time.
Personally, I think this deck has the tools to beat just about any deck that's a known quantity right now. That's not to say it's invincible, but all your matches are winnable with tight play and a pinch of luck (which you need in any given game of Magic anyway).
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Few games I have played so far, it feels like Risk Factor is way too situational to work. You can't really afford to spent 3 mana do nothing in most games where you are trying to maneuver.
In modern/legacy ppl play Temur bc lightning bolt is so good. Without bolt is there a major reason to go red bsides loving the color combo?
Yeah, Guardian is the real deal. I think without access to that card, almost specifically, this deck wouldn't really be possible. I think once a person sits down and plays games with it versus the other options they'll see the difference almost immediately.
Yeah, Carnage Tyrants come in against basically any blue deck, along with the extra land. Nullhide is a beefy dude, but it doesn't play well with the other counterspells and card drawing you want in the deck, especially post-board. You can try it, but my instinct is to say that it isn't suited for this style of deck; too many non-creatures.
I've actually ended up shaving a Risk Factor because it was the card that most often was kind of "meh" and I wanted to find room for the fourth Pteramander, so it got the axe. That being said, I did have a game last night where my mono-U opponent allowed me to draw three cards while he was at 11 life and facing down two of my creatures and I drew a Shock and Lava Coil, which allowed me to clear his board of Tempest Djinn and a Curious 1/1 of some variety. So, it may not always do exactly what you want it to do, but in games of parity it can present a super awkward decision for your opponent, which is the idea.
I'll post a fully updated list later tonight when I have a bit more time, since I did end up changing a few things around.
At the moment there are a lot of little creatures running around and being able to pick them off for one mana with Shock is pretty important. Also, Lava Coil is pretty much the premier removal spell in the format and kills almost everything you want it to with a few exceptions. You could try straight UG or whatnot, but I suspect you would have a much harder time keeping the board clear enough to pressure your opponent with the creature suite as-is.
Plus, Ionize is such a back-breaker a lot of the time. The two damage tacked onto a counterspell is exactly what this deck wants and it's the card that Suffocating Blast always wanted to be. It's not uncommon to have two creatures in play, Ionize their play, and then untap and adapt both creatures and kill them; and you can threaten that line with them being at 10-12 life, depending on what creatures we're talking about. It's pretty insane.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.