Watching this thread with great interest. The primer is wonderfully laid out - great work! I also want this so happen so desperately. The inclusion of Wayward Swordtooth seems pretty genius to me though I am liking the red-dominant direction that the discussion is heading. Have you tested the deck much? Or is this mostly based on theory?
Thank you. It is all literally theory crafting at this stage. I'm just waiting for the prices of cards to come down a bit off the initial flurry.
Your decklist titled: "Experimental Frenzy, Caffeine Pill Party" says 21 lands, but i count 20. just a heads up. my guess is another field or ruin was supposed to go in?
Well spotted, um actually Field of Ruin is actually x2, don't want to get caught off guard needing the colored mana too much.
I originally had 4 x Evolving Wild, but reduced it to x3, but I had added an extra Swamp in it's place, just didn't update it obviously, thanks.
If you can work Zhalfirin Void it would work wonders for helping the consistency once it gets going. (edit: you can prob only pull it off in mono red, i feel like adding it to izzet version would hurt it.
Yeah, I think some number of them in the mono-red is a great plan. It might even be that you play x2 Field of Ruin (instead of x3) and then you can play x2 Zhalfirin Void as a bare minimum. Field of Ruin does require spending sort of 2 mana, so the free effect of Zhalfirin Void will be mana efficient in spots.
Initially I wanted the deck to be Goblin Chainwhirler proof, but that fact is that both Tomb Robber and Deadeye Tracker can get above the one toughness through explore and they just offer much more synergy with top of library manipulation.
I've been messing with a version of Mono Red to varying results. I didn't want to muck up the deck with cards solely devoted to fixing the top of my deck like the Wand. Instead I'm trying to cut as many lands as possible by maximizing the number of 1cc spells and finding mana producers in other places. Goblin Prospector has been amazing at trading some junky goblins into the mana to cast experiment and to keep the chain going once started. Runaway Steam-Kin is the obvious MVP.
Yeah nice angle, the 16 lands to lower the land bottlenecks and then the spell and mana portion should be flowing nicely. The downside is of course a little risky with mulligans having no lands, but certainly this is one of the ways to go with Experimental Frenzy.
Are there any cards that can make you punch through damage more with your small creatures? I'm a bit worried that a few ground creatures gumming up the ground is going to stop your momentum too often.
I think the Shock or Lightning Strike in combination with your creatures, is too many 2-for-1 to get traction the way you'd like.
I'd need to go through all the cards to find a possible way of punching through damage more with small creatures, so can't help you until then, but I like the direction you're heading.
Even at 16 lands you have a 90% chance of having one in your opening hand, and only a 1.5% chance of missing on both your 7 and 6. I've been bouncing around between 16-18 (replacing Torch Couriers) but I'll probably need a lot more reps to really notice the difference.
You can definitely get brick walled, especially if you don't have experiment to shovel haste creatures at them. You're exactly right about having too many 2-for-1's sometimes. I think in those matchups I want to sideboard into more quality goblins. Something like 4 Goblin Warchief, 4 Legion Warboss, 4 Chainwhirler and 3 Mountains. That many 3-drops pushes me to increase the maindeck lands count, so 18 might be right.
I also want to test The Flame of Keld as a way to help the little creatures punch through. I'm trying Song of Freyalise in a Gr version and it's been amazing, even if you have to wait 3 turns.
Even at 16 lands you have a 90% chance of having one in your opening hand, and only a 1.5% chance of missing on both your 7 and 6. I've been bouncing around between 16-18 (replacing Torch Couriers) but I'll probably need a lot more reps to really notice the difference.
You can definitely get brick walled, especially if you don't have experiment to shovel haste creatures at them. You're exactly right about having too many 2-for-1's sometimes. I think in those matchups I want to sideboard into more quality goblins. Something like 4 Goblin Warchief, 4 Legion Warboss, 4 Chainwhirler and 3 Mountains. That many 3-drops pushes me to increase the maindeck lands count, so 18 might be right.
I also want to test The Flame of Keld as a way to help the little creatures punch through. I'm trying Song of Freyalise in a Gr version and it's been amazing, even if you have to wait 3 turns.
Oh Song of Freyalise is nice tech. I'm going have to add one to the Green versions.
Once Stomping Ground is a thing in Standard, your Gruul deck will shine more, as obviously the red element is so important to your game plan.
Here is my draft of it. It can get the combo off very well, but the power is on the lower side, but should be enough to handle most decks. just won a game after taking a mulligan to 4 cards. Here's the decklist. sry i dont know how to make card links appear
Here is my draft of it. It can get the combo off very well, but the power is on the lower side, but should be enough to handle most decks. just won a game after taking a mulligan to 4 cards. Here's the decklist. sry i dont know how to make card links appear
I like the Kinjalli's Caller combination with lowering the cost of the rest of your deck. Very low to the ground.
Same deal with I think it just needs some tech cards for punching through damage when the ground gets gummed up with opponents creatures.
Will have to think about it.
That mana base i added originally is awful, it needed some more basics to function on that 1 mana curve correctly.
Adjusted list and includes a bit more power. it may even want to run 4x Charging Monstrosaur and maybe 2x Raptor Companion instead. Been test playing it all night so far the lower mana base seems to be the way to go for experimental frenzy. i find that 2 cost set up cards are actually to slow for this, unless they can give you a turn 3 Experimental Frenzy. Song of Freyalise and Drover of the Mighty might also have a place in this version of the deck.
That mana base i added originally is awful, it needed some more basics to function on that 1 mana curve correctly.
Adjusted list and includes a bit more power. it may even want to run 4x Charging Monstrosaur and maybe 2x Raptor Companion instead. Been test playing it all night so far the lower mana base seems to be the way to go for experimental frenzy. i find that 2 cost set up cards are actually to slow for this, unless they can give you a turn 3 Experimental Frenzy. Song of Freyalise and Drover of the Mighty might also have a place in this version of the deck.
The Ranging Raptors ability to shuffle your library can be a way to get fresh looks at the top of you library. Attacking into creatures probably not going to invoke opponents into blocking it, so it is hard to get the enrage to trigger.
Cherished Hatchling can be used in combat to flash in and fight a creature with The Ranging Raptors, but once again this has to be during your attack, as you want to clear the bottleneck from the top of your library. But it is a trick in your pocket.
I'm wondering if some number of Raging Regisaur can help with enabling enrage on your Ranging Raptors. It is more expensive, but with Kinjalli's Caller it's only 3 mana, and also helps with being a more threatening body. I would play some number of these over Charging Monstrosaur for the reasons I pointed out.
After a 2 days of testing I've settled on this. Song of Freyalise first seemed like a worse addition to the deck when I thought about it. But in practice it blew me away. it gives the deck another ramp piece to help get frenzy, and is actually your win condition when you draw into it with Experimental Frenzy. If you get frenzy down with a wayward swordtooth and it sticks your pretty much set. Enter the Unknown is still tbd if it's worth playing, lowing the creature count hurts Ghalta as you need it to be a 2 drop. No shock-lands are in, it might be able to handle 2-4x, the problem with shock-lands is pretty obvious as you burn yourself (sometimes up to 10 damage in a turn)
I do have the 4 x Treasure Map in the Mono-Red deck as it does seem to be the best top card manipulation for "red".
I was initially surprised by the Dismissive Pyromancer. It seemed that it could be a little slow, but actually it is a means of clearing the top of your library for R and can be creature removal.
I've been thinking that Dark-Dweller Oracle was the better option for clearing the top of library, but it cost the same and you can get renewable use out of the Dismissive Pyromancer. It does have summoning sickness, where Dark-Dweller Oracle can be done immediately. But this definitely puts me into playing some number of Dismissive Pyromancer in all the decks now.
The Ghitu Lavarunner is just very aggressive and the Goblin Chainwhirler is just a solid all rounder for pressure, but firmly puts you into the ALL Mountains category, and splashing for cards like even Field of Ruin or Zhalfirin Void are off the table probably.
Very cool to see that these type of decks are the real deal. Experimental Frenzy is no joke. It's a real card that's going to be molded around in Standard for the next couple of years.
Alright I finally spent some money and made the mono-red deck (it's the cheapest to put together by far and I'm still waiting for prices to go down on other cards), minus a few cards that are too expensive; Sarkhan, Fireblood and Karn, Scion of Urza and just played a couple of Lava Coil instead.
All in all the deck is awesome. You really can run through your whole deck pretty quickly once you are setup. One of the games I lost was because the opponent correctly targeted removing both my Wand of Vertebrae when I only a few cards in library and I was all tapped out to do the shuffle effect, so I run out of cards without being able to put back all the firepower again, lol. Lesson learned.
But the idea is exactly what I've been stating, it's the measure between casting spells, and getting bottlenecked on lands on top. And it's simply going to be about getting the right ratios perfect. Too many top card manipulation, and you're just going to run out of mana, and not enough and you'll get stuck on lands.
The Field of Ruin's never got used once, but I didn't come up against any Search for Azcanta decks, but I don't even know how much impact that card has when what you're doing can be so much quicker for them to deal with. I just found looking to spend 2 is a bit of a pain to get the shuffle effect. Zhalfirin Void were very good, it might just be correct to run another two over the Field of Ruin and maybe board those in against non-basic problematic matchups?
The Runaway Steam-Kin are the biz, but you can't rely on them too heavily as opponents will make them the first port of call for removal. But you can really blow people out if they try something foolish that only does a few damage to them, because you can always respond with an instant to pump them up. Same with combat, blocking is hard for opponents, unless they have their own tricks. These guys are going to be the guts of mono-red decks 100% for future. If your opponents don't have removal, oh boy do the pile up the mana. I had three going at once and just churned through my whole deck in a couple of turns with an Experimental Frenzy.
Sure enough a control deck was able to deal with the Experimental Frenzy themselves, so couldn't get one going, but I still had enough action to win, so this was nice to see.
Turns out that filtering out lands against Settle the Wreckage is REALLY GOOD for you. You can never have enough mana in these decks, and you're taking out potential bottleneck lands. So you're quite happy to trade off your 2 mana creatures, just don't attack in with the Runaway Steam-Kin if you're suspecting a Settle the Wreckage. I mean Settle the Wreckage is actively terrible against this deck, as you never have to attack in with your creatures period, they all have active abilities without attacking, which is one of the strengths of the deck.
The Dismissive Pyromancer are definitely where you want to be at. Four is a must. Dark-Dweller Oracle were not nearly as good as I was hoping, but I'm still happy to play them as they can provide pressure and you can get value in the face of removal. But it's not that often that you're willing to trade in a creature to remove a bottleneck, unless you really are in that final stage of going off.
Direct Current was too slow, thought it worth a test however, but 3 mana is too much, and then jump-start casting isn't what you want to be doing when really you want to be spending mana on the top of your deck OR manipulation of your library. Banefire was also a filler card, not necessary as a finisher.
Sure enough a control deck was able to deal with the Experimental Frenzy themselves, so couldn't get one going, but I still had enough action to win, so this was nice to see.
Turns out that filtering out lands against Settle the Wreckage is REALLY GOOD for you. You can never have enough mana in these decks, and you're taking out potential bottleneck lands. So you're quite happy to trade off your 2 mana creatures, just don't attack in with the Runaway Steam-Kin if you're suspecting a Settle the Wreckage. I mean Settle the Wreckage is actively terrible against this deck, as you never have to attack in with your creatures period, they all have active abilities without attacking, which is one of the strengths of the deck.
Settle the Wreckage is hilariously bad vs us. I got Settled for 5 one game, cheered, and immediately went off. I only play conservatively with the Steam-kin, everything else can turn into lands.
For the mono red deck why not a few copies of evolving wilds. Since that deck isn't using the extra lands dino then why not play a few of these to early game thin your deck of lands, and late game be a shuffle effect for basically free. I feel like the land entering tapped wouldn't be too much of a downside as the only real one drop you have is ghitu lavarunner, and late game its just a shuffle effect in exchange for an untapped land. It seems like it would also just be a better land to play when you have Runaway Steam-kin out as your getting your mana from that rather than from lands.
Sure enough a control deck was able to deal with the Experimental Frenzy themselves, so couldn't get one going, but I still had enough action to win, so this was nice to see.
Turns out that filtering out lands against Settle the Wreckage is REALLY GOOD for you. You can never have enough mana in these decks, and you're taking out potential bottleneck lands. So you're quite happy to trade off your 2 mana creatures, just don't attack in with the Runaway Steam-Kin if you're suspecting a Settle the Wreckage. I mean Settle the Wreckage is actively terrible against this deck, as you never have to attack in with your creatures period, they all have active abilities without attacking, which is one of the strengths of the deck.
Settle the Wreckage is hilariously bad vs us. I got Settled for 5 one game, cheered, and immediately went off. I only play conservatively with the Steam-kin, everything else can turn into lands.
Obviously the other nice thing is that any creature board wipe isn't the end of the world, if you've been using Experimental Frenzy to get those creatures onto the board,as you can recover quickly. For other decks it can be devastating if you don;t have the means to recoup your losses. I had an opponent Cleansing Nova me three times in one game, and it didn't matter in the end.
For the mono red deck why not a few copies of evolving wilds. Since that deck isn't using the extra lands dino then why not play a few of these to early game thin your deck of lands, and late game be a shuffle effect for basically free. I feel like the land entering tapped wouldn't be too much of a downside as the only real one drop you have is ghitu lavarunner, and late game its just a shuffle effect in exchange for an untapped land. It seems like it would also just be a better land to play when you have Runaway Steam-kin out as your getting your mana from that rather than from lands.
I took to this thought, and what I did is replace the 2 x Field of Ruin with 2 x Evolving Wilds to give it a try.
I agree the thinning part is sort of an unseen ability it has.
Sometimes it was good, but I did have weird holding pattern sometimes where I wasn't cracking it because I was being patient with potential bottleneck top cards, but in the end it was MANA that was constraining me and not lands on top. But if I had cracked it the turn before I would have had the mana to cast the spell. So it can get you sometimes if you are patient with it.
I don't think I'd play more than x2, and I might even go down to x1, for the reason that you can get stung being a mana down if you try to use it specifically to remove the bottlenecks.
I also ended up going up to 22 land, adding in another Mountain, just to make mulligan decisions a little easier.
Technically I never had the Sarkhan, Fireblood and Karn, Scion of Urza in the deck to start with, so I haven't tested them, but for the sake of showing the list I run changed the OP.
I do want to test Karn at some stage, as there are 7 artifacts in the deck, and he does provide top of library manipulation.
It can be a lot more explosive under Experimental Frenzy than the Mono-Red deck between the Wayward Swordtooth and the Dryad Greenseeker giving you a lot more looks at your library.
Don't get me wrong if you get the Runaway Steam-Kin flowing in the Mono-Red deck you can churn through your deck in a couple of turns.
However there is just more consistency with filtering through your library quicker.
The downside is that your colored mana requirements are harder to balance, between the Green and the Red. Your mulligans are at the mercy of the top of your library a lot of the times with needing either the Green or Red. It's hard to mull this deck as it only has 22 land, and the converted mana cost is still a little bit higher.
It was also weaker against control. The reason is that Wayward Swordtooth doesn't actually apply pressure until you have the 'City Blessing', so if they just counter your Experimental Frenzy, the deck in general is slower and Wayward Swordtooth does nothing on it's own.
With the Mono-Red deck, even though it does not apply massive amounts of pressure, it does force your opponents to tap out to deal with your board enough that you should be able to squeeze an Experimental Frenzy into play at some stage.
It's the old "How well does your deck do without Experimental Frenzy?".
It's also very much a case of "Are you just more winning, rather than just doing enough to win?"
You have to be super careful with making the deck a really fun combo deck when you're under Experimental Frenzy, and have a trade off with "enough to win" versus "super winning"
The Enter the Unknown were not nearly as good as I was hoping they were going to be. You can open yourself up to getting 2-for-1 once you target a creature. Also it's hit and miss (duh), so can be good, but of course other times a bit slow.
I had already "cut" a Jadelight Ranger for another Treasure Map before I started, as I just have two copies of Jadelight anyway.
Too be honest they were OK, but the double green portion GG is an issue at times, as I say color fixing is an issue in general.
So after losing a fair amount of games to control, I ended up taking a radical turn and cutting almost all of the Green and going to the Red shell, except for 3 x Wayward Swordtooth and 2 x Dryad Greenseeker.
I've gone up to 24 land as well, as both the Wayward Swordtooth and Dryad Greenseeker can mitigate the extra lands, and you want to add in a few extra green sources. It helps with mulligans, etc as well. I've went with 4 x Evolving Wilds as you can afford to be a bit slower, and the fixing for color is important. So the only other non-basics are Rootbound Crag.
So which version is better? Gruul vs Mono Red?
Well it's close, I'm mean the differences are minor in my final version now anyway. But it's still a case of land colored fixing. Once Stomping Ground comes into Standard, then I think the Gruul deck will be better.
But in the mean time, I think for not having to worry about your mana, Mono-Red has it. Also the Mono-Red is slightly better against aggressive decks, because Dark-Dweller Oracle can block in the early stages, where as Wayward Swordtooth can't until you get the 'City Blessing'. The Gruul deck can stabilize much better however in the mid-game with 5/5 bodies hard to get through.
I tried out a Song of Freyalise and I didn't really need the extra mana in most cases, this card is tech for I'd say more low to the ground creatures that are not tapping for abilities in the first place.
The deck that I ended up with that essentially used the Mono-Red shell, but with some premium Green cards.
Lighted to hear of some successful testing. I am still trying to work out what deck I want to put my time into this rotation, but there is some real temptation here. The mono-red brew looks strong to me from a distance, if only for the consistency you mentioned. The question of questions though: How does it fair against competitive decks? Do you think this could be a rogue in the meta? Or is more fun to catch friends out with.
Lighted to hear of some successful testing. I am still trying to work out what deck I want to put my time into this rotation, but there is some real temptation here. The mono-red brew looks strong to me from a distance, if only for the consistency you mentioned. The question of questions though: How does it fair against competitive decks? Do you think this could be a rogue in the meta? Or is more fun to catch friends out with.
I think the honest truth is that it is definitely catching people out at the moment.
If a control deck is able to figure out to counterspell or remove the Experimental Frenzy, then of course the decks are much worse.
Control is super popular as far as I can see, so you can spend a lot of games not being aggressive enough and just get well controlled out.
It does pretty well against aggressive decks, sort of "stabilizing" around a very low life total, but is able to bounce back with card advantage towards the end. But it can just get ran over with the opponents right draw. You are hoping to stretch the games out, so you do have to see the best that aggressive decks can throw at you.
Too be honest I probably lost a few games by just not being patient enough. Scrying Lightning Strike, etc, to the bottom because I want to find Experimental Frenzy. But if I just focused dealing with the opponents boards one-for-one probably would have won a few more games. But I just like to try and combo off hard
Will beat any mid-range deck that doesn't specifically remove Experimental Frenzy in a timely manner. The thing is that once you've gotten to the mid-game, you've probably got another Frenzy in hand, so it's not great for your opponents to remove it at that stage if a few turns have passed with it in play.
I consider the Surveil blue/black or even Surveil Grixis decks to be Mid-Range, and in general because the creatures fall within the Shock, Lightning Strike and Lava Coil range you tend do have enough going on to get into the later stages of the game.
I have been coming up against a lot of main deck Reclamation Sages in Mid-Range decks, so I suspect Knight of Autumn will be popular off the sideboards with Selesnya colors.
I haven't even been playing sideboarded games, just trying to get the core of the decks in a functioning manner.
I guess if I had to rank it's winning % against decks archetypes;
Control - 20% (yeah not good)
Aggressive - 50% (pretty even split)
Mid-Range - 80% (they can't grind out Experimental Frenzy)
Combo - 75% (seems to be better than other decks looking to do broken stuff / new brews)
Interestingly enough there was a mono-red Aggro deck on the SCG event yesterday which had a very similar theme. It was more of a general burn deck though, but did rely on Experimental Frenzy. I'll link the list once they are published. It does concern me though this deck may end up just being a weaker version of burn or M-red Aggro. I always saw it as far more sophisticated than that and perhaps we'll be waiting for the Gruul version to receive support before that eventuality?
Interestingly enough there was a mono-red Aggro deck on the SCG event yesterday which had a very similar theme. It was more of a general burn deck though, but did rely on Experimental Frenzy. I'll link the list once they are published. It does concern me though this deck may end up just being a weaker version of burn or M-red Aggro. I always saw it as far more sophisticated than that and perhaps we'll be waiting for the Gruul version to receive support before that eventuality?
OK, I just looked up the deck and this is what it looks like
I know what you mean about "I always saw it as far more sophisticated than that" .. because I'm a combo player and I prefer to do busted stuff, so concentrate around that aspect more.
But for competitive, Experimental Frenzy is probably more like the backup card. Make the deck self supporting and then you can play it out to give the deck extra reach.
Jim Davies claiming this deck as his own on his stream
I noticed Travis Woo came up with a similar deck for the Gruul as well. There are differences however.
But at the end of the day a lot of the choices just make sense, so it's good to see that my instincts initially are not far off what the "pros" are thinking is good.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I originally had 4 x Evolving Wild, but reduced it to x3, but I had added an extra Swamp in it's place, just didn't update it obviously, thanks.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Mono-Red
Added
2 x Zhalfirin Void
Removed
1 x Field of Ruin
1 x Mountain.
But honestly I could see even trying x4 of Zhalfirin Void as at least a play test.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Initially I wanted the deck to be Goblin Chainwhirler proof, but that fact is that both Tomb Robber and Deadeye Tracker can get above the one toughness through explore and they just offer much more synergy with top of library manipulation.
Jund
Added
1 x Tomb Robber
1 x Deadeye Tracker
Removed
2 x Goblin Cratermaker
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Even at 16 lands you have a 90% chance of having one in your opening hand, and only a 1.5% chance of missing on both your 7 and 6. I've been bouncing around between 16-18 (replacing Torch Couriers) but I'll probably need a lot more reps to really notice the difference.
You can definitely get brick walled, especially if you don't have experiment to shovel haste creatures at them. You're exactly right about having too many 2-for-1's sometimes. I think in those matchups I want to sideboard into more quality goblins. Something like 4 Goblin Warchief, 4 Legion Warboss, 4 Chainwhirler and 3 Mountains. That many 3-drops pushes me to increase the maindeck lands count, so 18 might be right.
I also want to test The Flame of Keld as a way to help the little creatures punch through. I'm trying Song of Freyalise in a Gr version and it's been amazing, even if you have to wait 3 turns.
Once Stomping Ground is a thing in Standard, your Gruul deck will shine more, as obviously the red element is so important to your game plan.
How about?
3 x Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
4 x Steam Vents
3 x Sulfur Falls - or maybe 4?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
4 Kinjalli's Caller (XLN) 18
4 Wayward Swordtooth (RIX) 150
4 Experimental Frenzy (GRN) 99
4 Temple Garden (GRN) 258
4 Sacred Foundry (GRN) 254
4 Sunpetal Grove (XLN) 257
4 Llanowar Elves (DAR) 168
4 Raptor Companion (RIX) 19
2 Ghalta, Primal Hunger (RIX) 130
4 Enter the Unknown (RIX) 128
4 Wand of Vertebrae (GRN) 242
4 Nest Robber (XLN) 152
4 Rootbound Crag (XLN) 256
4 Forest (RIX) 196
2 Cherished Hatchling (RIX) 124
4 Ranging Raptors (XLN) 201
Here is the deck formatted
4 Experimental Frenzy
Creatures (28)
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Kinjalli's Caller
4 Wayward Swordtooth
4 Raptor Companion
4 Nest Robber
2 Cherished Hatchling
4 Ranging Raptors
2 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
4 Enter the Unknown
Artifacts (4)
4 Wand of Vertebrae
Lands (20)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Temple Garden
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Forest
I like the Kinjalli's Caller combination with lowering the cost of the rest of your deck. Very low to the ground.
Same deal with I think it just needs some tech cards for punching through damage when the ground gets gummed up with opponents creatures.
Will have to think about it.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Adjusted list and includes a bit more power. it may even want to run 4x Charging Monstrosaur and maybe 2x Raptor Companion instead. Been test playing it all night so far the lower mana base seems to be the way to go for experimental frenzy. i find that 2 cost set up cards are actually to slow for this, unless they can give you a turn 3 Experimental Frenzy. Song of Freyalise and Drover of the Mighty might also have a place in this version of the deck.
4 Kinjalli's Caller (XLN) 18
4 Wayward Swordtooth (RIX) 150
4 Experimental Frenzy (GRN) 99
4 Temple Garden (GRN) 258
4 Sacred Foundry (GRN) 254
4 Sunpetal Grove (XLN) 257
4 Llanowar Elves (DAR) 168
4 Raptor Companion (RIX) 19
2 Ghalta, Primal Hunger (RIX) 130
4 Enter the Unknown (RIX) 128
4 Wand of Vertebrae (GRN) 242
4 Nest Robber (XLN) 152
4 Forest (RIX) 196
4 Ranging Raptors (XLN) 201
2 Mountain (RIX) 195
2 Plains (RIX) 192
2 Charging Monstrosaur (XLN) 138
The Ranging Raptors ability to shuffle your library can be a way to get fresh looks at the top of you library. Attacking into creatures probably not going to invoke opponents into blocking it, so it is hard to get the enrage to trigger.
Cherished Hatchling can be used in combat to flash in and fight a creature with The Ranging Raptors, but once again this has to be during your attack, as you want to clear the bottleneck from the top of your library. But it is a trick in your pocket.
I'm wondering if some number of Raging Regisaur can help with enabling enrage on your Ranging Raptors. It is more expensive, but with Kinjalli's Caller it's only 3 mana, and also helps with being a more threatening body. I would play some number of these over Charging Monstrosaur for the reasons I pointed out.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
4 Dismissive Pyromancer
4 Ghitu Lavarunner
4 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Runaway Steam-Kin
Spells (14)
4 Lava Coil
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shivan Fire
4 Shock
4 Treasure Map
Enchantments (4)
4 Experimental Frenzy
Lands (22)
22 Mountain
3 Mountain
2 Shivan Fire
3 Fight with Fire
3 Rekindling Phoenix
4 Siege-Gang Commander
Treasure Map in particular is interesting.
After a 2 days of testing I've settled on this. Song of Freyalise first seemed like a worse addition to the deck when I thought about it. But in practice it blew me away. it gives the deck another ramp piece to help get frenzy, and is actually your win condition when you draw into it with Experimental Frenzy. If you get frenzy down with a wayward swordtooth and it sticks your pretty much set. Enter the Unknown is still tbd if it's worth playing, lowing the creature count hurts Ghalta as you need it to be a 2 drop. No shock-lands are in, it might be able to handle 2-4x, the problem with shock-lands is pretty obvious as you burn yourself (sometimes up to 10 damage in a turn)
4 Kinjalli's Caller
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Snubhorn Sentry
4 Drover of the Mighty
4 Raptor Companion
4 Huatli's Snubhorn
4 Wayward Swordtooth
1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
4 Experimental Frenzy
4 Song of Freyalise
Artifacts (3)
3 Wand of Vertebrae
Lands (22)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Sunpetal Grove
6 Forest
4 Plains
I was initially surprised by the Dismissive Pyromancer. It seemed that it could be a little slow, but actually it is a means of clearing the top of your library for R and can be creature removal.
I've been thinking that Dark-Dweller Oracle was the better option for clearing the top of library, but it cost the same and you can get renewable use out of the Dismissive Pyromancer. It does have summoning sickness, where Dark-Dweller Oracle can be done immediately. But this definitely puts me into playing some number of Dismissive Pyromancer in all the decks now.
The Ghitu Lavarunner is just very aggressive and the Goblin Chainwhirler is just a solid all rounder for pressure, but firmly puts you into the ALL Mountains category, and splashing for cards like even Field of Ruin or Zhalfirin Void are off the table probably.
Very cool to see that these type of decks are the real deal. Experimental Frenzy is no joke. It's a real card that's going to be molded around in Standard for the next couple of years.
So now that I can see the power of Dismissive Pyromancer in an Experimental Frenzy deck I've added some number to all the decks;
Jund
Added
1 x Dismissive Pyromancer
Removed
1 x Tomb Raider
Gruul
Added
3 x Dismissive Pyromancer
Removed
3 x Goblin Cratermaker
Izzet
Added
3 x Dismissive Pyromancer
Removed
3 x Electrostatic Field
Mono-Red
Added
4 x Dismissive Pyromancer
Removed
2 x Electrostatic Field
2 x Guttersnipe
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Alright I finally spent some money and made the mono-red deck (it's the cheapest to put together by far and I'm still waiting for prices to go down on other cards), minus a few cards that are too expensive; Sarkhan, Fireblood and Karn, Scion of Urza and just played a couple of Lava Coil instead.
All in all the deck is awesome. You really can run through your whole deck pretty quickly once you are setup. One of the games I lost was because the opponent correctly targeted removing both my Wand of Vertebrae when I only a few cards in library and I was all tapped out to do the shuffle effect, so I run out of cards without being able to put back all the firepower again, lol. Lesson learned.
But the idea is exactly what I've been stating, it's the measure between casting spells, and getting bottlenecked on lands on top. And it's simply going to be about getting the right ratios perfect. Too many top card manipulation, and you're just going to run out of mana, and not enough and you'll get stuck on lands.
After a few games, I found Jaya Ballard to be a bit durdly, and tried Azor's Gateway as a sort of 5th Treasure Map instead, which was fine.
The Field of Ruin's never got used once, but I didn't come up against any Search for Azcanta decks, but I don't even know how much impact that card has when what you're doing can be so much quicker for them to deal with. I just found looking to spend 2 is a bit of a pain to get the shuffle effect.
Zhalfirin Void were very good, it might just be correct to run another two over the Field of Ruin and maybe board those in against non-basic problematic matchups?
The Runaway Steam-Kin are the biz, but you can't rely on them too heavily as opponents will make them the first port of call for removal. But you can really blow people out if they try something foolish that only does a few damage to them, because you can always respond with an instant to pump them up. Same with combat, blocking is hard for opponents, unless they have their own tricks. These guys are going to be the guts of mono-red decks 100% for future. If your opponents don't have removal, oh boy do the pile up the mana. I had three going at once and just churned through my whole deck in a couple of turns with an Experimental Frenzy.
Sure enough a control deck was able to deal with the Experimental Frenzy themselves, so couldn't get one going, but I still had enough action to win, so this was nice to see.
Turns out that filtering out lands against Settle the Wreckage is REALLY GOOD for you. You can never have enough mana in these decks, and you're taking out potential bottleneck lands. So you're quite happy to trade off your 2 mana creatures, just don't attack in with the Runaway Steam-Kin if you're suspecting a Settle the Wreckage. I mean Settle the Wreckage is actively terrible against this deck, as you never have to attack in with your creatures period, they all have active abilities without attacking, which is one of the strengths of the deck.
The Dismissive Pyromancer are definitely where you want to be at. Four is a must.
Dark-Dweller Oracle were not nearly as good as I was hoping, but I'm still happy to play them as they can provide pressure and you can get value in the face of removal. But it's not that often that you're willing to trade in a creature to remove a bottleneck, unless you really are in that final stage of going off.
Direct Current was too slow, thought it worth a test however, but 3 mana is too much, and then jump-start casting isn't what you want to be doing when really you want to be spending mana on the top of your deck OR manipulation of your library. Banefire was also a filler card, not necessary as a finisher.
Mono-Red
Added
2 x Lava Coil
1 x Azor's Gateway
Removed
1 x Jaya Ballard
1 x Direct Current
1 x Banefire
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Settle the Wreckage is hilariously bad vs us. I got Settled for 5 one game, cheered, and immediately went off. I only play conservatively with the Steam-kin, everything else can turn into lands.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I agree the thinning part is sort of an unseen ability it has.
Sometimes it was good, but I did have weird holding pattern sometimes where I wasn't cracking it because I was being patient with potential bottleneck top cards, but in the end it was MANA that was constraining me and not lands on top. But if I had cracked it the turn before I would have had the mana to cast the spell. So it can get you sometimes if you are patient with it.
I don't think I'd play more than x2, and I might even go down to x1, for the reason that you can get stung being a mana down if you try to use it specifically to remove the bottlenecks.
I also ended up going up to 22 land, adding in another Mountain, just to make mulligan decisions a little easier.
Mono-Red
Added
1 x Electrostatic Field
2 x Evolving Wilds
1 x Mountain
Removed
2 x Field of Ruin
1 x Sarkhan, Fireblood
1 x Karn, Scion of Urza
Technically I never had the Sarkhan, Fireblood and Karn, Scion of Urza in the deck to start with, so I haven't tested them, but for the sake of showing the list I run changed the OP.
I do want to test Karn at some stage, as there are 7 artifacts in the deck, and he does provide top of library manipulation.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Alright so I put the Gruul deck through the paces today.
The deck I was initially testing with.
4 Experimental Frenzy
1 Song of Freyalise
Creatures (20)
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Dryad Greenseeker
1 Llanowar Scout
1 Dark-Dweller Oracle
4 Dismissive Pyromancer
4 Wayward Swordtooth
2 Jadelight Ranger
1 Thrashing Brontodon
3 Enter the Unknown
3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
Artifacts (3)
2 Wand of Vertebrae
2 Treasure Map
Lands (22)
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Field of Ruin
4 Rootbound Crag
7 Mountain
8 Forest
It can be a lot more explosive under Experimental Frenzy than the Mono-Red deck between the Wayward Swordtooth and the Dryad Greenseeker giving you a lot more looks at your library.
Don't get me wrong if you get the Runaway Steam-Kin flowing in the Mono-Red deck you can churn through your deck in a couple of turns.
However there is just more consistency with filtering through your library quicker.
The downside is that your colored mana requirements are harder to balance, between the Green and the Red. Your mulligans are at the mercy of the top of your library a lot of the times with needing either the Green or Red. It's hard to mull this deck as it only has 22 land, and the converted mana cost is still a little bit higher.
It was also weaker against control. The reason is that Wayward Swordtooth doesn't actually apply pressure until you have the 'City Blessing', so if they just counter your Experimental Frenzy, the deck in general is slower and Wayward Swordtooth does nothing on it's own.
With the Mono-Red deck, even though it does not apply massive amounts of pressure, it does force your opponents to tap out to deal with your board enough that you should be able to squeeze an Experimental Frenzy into play at some stage.
It's the old "How well does your deck do without Experimental Frenzy?".
It's also very much a case of "Are you just more winning, rather than just doing enough to win?"
Basically;
Gruul with Experimental Frenzy = Very Big Turns
Gruul without Experimental Frenzy = Slow Turns
Mono-Red with Experimental Frenzy = Medium Turns to Big Turns
Mono-Red without Experimental Frenzy = Medium Turns
You have to be super careful with making the deck a really fun combo deck when you're under Experimental Frenzy, and have a trade off with "enough to win" versus "super winning"
My gut feeling is that once Stomping Ground is a thing in Standard, then Experimental Frenzy decks shouldn't be without some number of Wayward Swordtooth and some number of Dryad Greenseeker.
The actual combination between Dryad Greenseeker and Wand of Vertebrae is pretty nice without Experimental Frenzy in play. You can use Dryad Greenseeker to look at the top of your deck, and if it's not a land, and some other card that you don't want to draw then you can use the Wand of Vertebrae to put it into graveyard.
The Enter the Unknown were not nearly as good as I was hoping they were going to be. You can open yourself up to getting 2-for-1 once you target a creature. Also it's hit and miss (duh), so can be good, but of course other times a bit slow.
I had already "cut" a Jadelight Ranger for another Treasure Map before I started, as I just have two copies of Jadelight anyway.
Too be honest they were OK, but the double green portion GG is an issue at times, as I say color fixing is an issue in general.
So after losing a fair amount of games to control, I ended up taking a radical turn and cutting almost all of the Green and going to the Red shell, except for 3 x Wayward Swordtooth and 2 x Dryad Greenseeker.
I've gone up to 24 land as well, as both the Wayward Swordtooth and Dryad Greenseeker can mitigate the extra lands, and you want to add in a few extra green sources. It helps with mulligans, etc as well. I've went with 4 x Evolving Wilds as you can afford to be a bit slower, and the fixing for color is important. So the only other non-basics are Rootbound Crag.
So basically the downside is that with the Runaway Steam-Kin we are trading away a few red spells. Instead of Dark-Dweller Oracle and Electrostatic Field, we have the Wayward Swordtooth and Dryad Greenseeker.
So which version is better? Gruul vs Mono Red?
Well it's close, I'm mean the differences are minor in my final version now anyway. But it's still a case of land colored fixing. Once Stomping Ground comes into Standard, then I think the Gruul deck will be better.
But in the mean time, I think for not having to worry about your mana, Mono-Red has it. Also the Mono-Red is slightly better against aggressive decks, because Dark-Dweller Oracle can block in the early stages, where as Wayward Swordtooth can't until you get the 'City Blessing'. The Gruul deck can stabilize much better however in the mid-game with 5/5 bodies hard to get through.
I tried out a Song of Freyalise and I didn't really need the extra mana in most cases, this card is tech for I'd say more low to the ground creatures that are not tapping for abilities in the first place.
The deck that I ended up with that essentially used the Mono-Red shell, but with some premium Green cards.
4 Experimental Frenzy
Creatures (14)
4 Runaway Steam-Kin
4 Dismissive Pyromancer
1 Dark-Dweller Oracle
2 Dryad Greenseeker
3 Wayward Swordtooth
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Lava Coil
Artifacts (6)
2 Wand of Vertebrae
4 Treasure Map
11 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
5 Forest
4 Evolving Wild
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
If a control deck is able to figure out to counterspell or remove the Experimental Frenzy, then of course the decks are much worse.
Control is super popular as far as I can see, so you can spend a lot of games not being aggressive enough and just get well controlled out.
It does pretty well against aggressive decks, sort of "stabilizing" around a very low life total, but is able to bounce back with card advantage towards the end. But it can just get ran over with the opponents right draw. You are hoping to stretch the games out, so you do have to see the best that aggressive decks can throw at you.
Too be honest I probably lost a few games by just not being patient enough. Scrying Lightning Strike, etc, to the bottom because I want to find Experimental Frenzy. But if I just focused dealing with the opponents boards one-for-one probably would have won a few more games. But I just like to try and combo off hard
Will beat any mid-range deck that doesn't specifically remove Experimental Frenzy in a timely manner. The thing is that once you've gotten to the mid-game, you've probably got another Frenzy in hand, so it's not great for your opponents to remove it at that stage if a few turns have passed with it in play.
I consider the Surveil blue/black or even Surveil Grixis decks to be Mid-Range, and in general because the creatures fall within the Shock, Lightning Strike and Lava Coil range you tend do have enough going on to get into the later stages of the game.
I have been coming up against a lot of main deck Reclamation Sages in Mid-Range decks, so I suspect Knight of Autumn will be popular off the sideboards with Selesnya colors.
I haven't even been playing sideboarded games, just trying to get the core of the decks in a functioning manner.
I guess if I had to rank it's winning % against decks archetypes;
Control - 20% (yeah not good)
Aggressive - 50% (pretty even split)
Mid-Range - 80% (they can't grind out Experimental Frenzy)
Combo - 75% (seems to be better than other decks looking to do broken stuff / new brews)
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
4 Fanatical Firebrand
4 Ghitu Lavarunner
4 Runaway Steam-Kin
4 Viashino Pyromancer
4 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
2 Risk Factor
4 Wizard's Lightning
Enchantments (4)
4 Experimental Frenzy
22 Mountain
3 Lava Coil
3 Fiery Cannonade
3 Fight with Fire
2 Legion Warboss
1 Risk Factor
3 Rekindling Phoenix
Yeah basically an aggro deck, leaning hard on the Ghitu Lavarunner and Viashino Pyromancer to make the Wizard's Lightning cost R.
This deck definitely pushes a lot of damage.
I know what you mean about "I always saw it as far more sophisticated than that" .. because I'm a combo player and I prefer to do busted stuff, so concentrate around that aspect more.
But for competitive, Experimental Frenzy is probably more like the backup card. Make the deck self supporting and then you can play it out to give the deck extra reach.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
But at the end of the day a lot of the choices just make sense, so it's good to see that my instincts initially are not far off what the "pros" are thinking is good.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith