I just threw the lands together quick, so I'm sure it needs a little work. Just eyeballing it, id probably change to all basic Swamps, since we have Green and White covered in all of the duals, and our only T1 play is Duress/Scrutiny and Fatal Push. I only threw in the Gods as an alternate win-con after Scriptures pops, since they can survive it, and Bontu is a way to turn any creatures about to die into card advantage, and a few points of damage/life gain on the way.
In my 2 games testing, I don't like the Gods in this deck as 1-ofs, unless I start with both in hand, or get both out early. Seal Away is an absolute headache for this deck, and I'm starting to think running some form of enchantment hate might be needed or else all our plans are going to just end up Exiled under any of the several ORing clones.
Why not Heroic Intervention to save our lands and general protection from sweepers.
I considered it as a SB option. That's one area I often have difficulty brewing, as I haven't followed the competitive MtG scene since RTR/THS standard.
I’d tend to agree with that assessment. If specific enchantment hate becomes more common it might be worth slots in the main, but for now it seems like all our various lists are already having issues fitting everything in.
Yeah, I'm actually just now getting back in to magic after not having played since mid Gatecrash. I'd read some articles every few months but that info didn't stick with me. I have a list of like thirty cards on my notepad with their CMC next to the name. It'a bant list and I'm using gatherer sifting through cards. I'm trying to narrow it down to a workable amount of cards with a decent curve and answers for threats while trying to stay the course of the combo. It's hard, maybe I'll post the list here and we can ditch the trash a lot faster. If you guys want to see the list I'll post it but please remember I don't know what's really going on in standard right now.
TechnoWriter hit the nail on the head, I just can't seem to fit it all in.
Last night I made a list of possible bant cards for a Sagageddon deck. The list has a couple of different approaches for the deck in mind, mainly because I didn't know where to start. It also contains sideboard options. I like the idea of slowing the opponent down with tap effects and such, but the more I look at the cards I'm just not sure that's possible. Maybe you guys will get a good laugh at some of my picks, but maybe it'll spark an idea in your heads. I still haven't seen at a lot of the cards in standard so I'm sure there are a lot more you guys can think of that would be better. Here goes.
There's some good ideas in that list. I looked at a few of them in my earlier Bant builds, and we have discussed a couple others as well.
(As an aside, I'm a huge fan of "Sagageddon" and am totally stealing it.)
At this point it seems like we are still trying to figure out what the best shell is for this type of deck. So far we've got lists for Bant, Abzan, BW and 4C, plus talk of both Naya and Sultai. Of all the options and directions to take it, I think moving into midrange/control territory seems like the best way to go, and the 4C option is almost certainly the worst. Within that general "speed", we can look at ramping (likely Bant), going reactive/counter heavy (which pushes us most naturally into Bant or Esper depending on use of The Mending of Dominaria or not), and proactive/discard approach (prolly Abzan). The Naya monsters idea that Mongo suggested earlier also sounds interesting, but needs a list to start from.
Gonna do some more theorycrafting and see if I can put together some more optimized versions of some of these.
The one issue ive noticed A LOT from playing online via Cockatrice/XMage and other similar programs, is that ORing effects are everywhere right now, which REALLY hurt anything even remotely creature based, and if they realize our combo, an Ixalan's Binding can just totally stop it cold.
I looked, and iirc, there are atleast 3 ORing clones in standard right now, Cast Out Seal Away Ixalan's Binding which seems ridiculous. I'm not sure if this decks shell can withstand the control matchup. assuming U/W/x or super fast agro, since we cant afford as many slots for early disruption maindeck, short of a few Fatal Pushes or cheap lifegain/blocker dudes like Sunscourge Champion.
I really like the idea of this deck, since its been quite awhile since we've had a proper 'geddon effect, but I don't think the current Standard meta can support it. Perhaps post-Rotation when Kala/Aether/Amonkhet/Hour rotate, but its hard to tell yet.
Also, "Sagageddon" is an amazing name for this archetype/brew, I love it!
EDIT--And I forgot about the monsters idea I had, ill post a list shortly once I get back home.
My rough draft for a Naya "Monsters" Sagageddon build. basic Idea is to rush out swinging, to force an answer like Fumigate, then windmill slam a Fall/Mending back to back when theyre out of lands to counter them, while using Scavengers to eat their yard to make Falls regrowth less symmetrical.
EDIT--Since posting this, ive tried testing it a few games on Cockatrice, and its actually quite good vs agro. If it resolves a Bronto, or survives the first turn long enough to form a board presence with a big enough butt to trade into a better board state, it can easily take over a game and stabilize with the incremental lifegain from Deathscourge and Sunscourge, and recurring bodies from Mending. And it gets even better for it post-board with our own removal.
Control is still a headache though, we're not fast enough to beat them down before they can stabilize, and we have to rely on them tapping out for something to stop us, before resolving a Fall and hoping to out-draw them with the lands we get back later. Post board, they often know to either play the slow game, and not tap out unless its for a sweeper, I almost want to say our SB should be transformational, turning us int a full-on R/G/w Monsters deck and take out our little combo to just charge at them head on. What say you?
Nice to hear positive results. I can certainly see how aggro would be tough with the minimal interaction this version is packing. Being able to stabilize and take over is encouraging!
I fully support the transformational board approach - I'd plugged that into my 4C build (turning into Constrictor.dek), and in a more stable shell I can only think it would be better.
I kind of like this list, and is an interesting take on the concept--Hide behind 'Walkers after a Fall and take over from the delayed Wrath from Scriptures.
IMO, maybe a 1-2 of Liliana for an extra wincon via zombie tokens might be a decent idea.
Thanks! I started from a "typical" superfriends list I stumbled across, and moved things around to fit in the sagas. The original ran Aether Hubs with Harnessed Lightning and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but I don't know if that's correct for this variant. Especially with a creatureless maindeck meaning energy is much harder to come by.
Yeah Lili should be in there, oversight on my part (she wasn't in the base list I found, and aside from boarding Huatli I wasn't looking at the walker package). Thinking 1/1 between her and Gideon should work. My goldfishing has proved that WW on turn 3 is really difficult so one less need for that would be good. The mana still needs work. As it stands the percentages are good in terms of coloured sources to coloured requirements go, but it's low on sources in general (16B, 13R, 10W). I'm trying to bring those up but it's a challenge to get it balanced.
On the Topic of Lili--I was actually thinking maybe replace Angrath with her. or maybe -1 Angrath -1 Gideon, +2 Lili. Angrath is sort of bad in certain match-ups, as he doesn't protect himself well. He might be better vs certain matchups as a SB option, but I don't think he is great maindeck over Liliana.
with so many double colored spells, the Hub/Lightning/Siphoner package might be needed, or something able to spam treasure tokens for mana fixing. I wasn't playing during the Kaladesh blocks introduction, so my knowledge on alternatives to gain more Energy counters for this deck is lacking. if you went this route however, I would say replace the Disintegrations or Abrades in the main deck, or maybe the Seal Away/Bindings.
As far as gaining energy goes, we are really limited. Aside from Harness and Siphoner (both of which also consume energy) the only real option that is energy-positive is Live Fast. The card draw would be nice, but I'm not a fan of the life loss. Also, it's prolly worse than what we have in the deck now.
Re: double-coloured spells, I think it's correct to pull Gideon entirely and only have the single Fumigate needing double white. That takes a little pressure of the mana base. I'm also considering adding a Karn in here pretty much just for the card draw option. Dunno if that's practical tho.
I really need to get my hands on some cards or at least see a picture of what else is out there. I'm concerned we might be loaded up too much on removal and are weaker than necessary against control (that's actually why I like Angrath main, to shore up that matchup).
All that said, I think I'm really close to a starting list I'd feel comfortable sleeving up and taking for a spin.
How many "enemy paired" duals exist in the Kaladesh-Dominaria Standard? I feel like we need to either run every single W one that fits this wedge, or some sort of Mana Rock that helps us filter into White. (Gilded Lotus maybe?) Or, run worse options of removal, like Golden Demise or the black Expertise and save our targeted spot removal for larger stuff they wont handle, but that option is only good vs small dude agro. I also think we need some form of extra Duress clones, in the board vs agro. I think the main focus of the deck is BR Midrange, with a small splash of W for Fall and maybe Seal Away/Cast Out.
(There's also a full set of always enter tapped lands but I'd rather not consider those.)
The problem is that we can't run them all. We would have 24 lands between these, but only 4 with basic typing to turn on the checklands, and at best 5/8 fastlands coming in tapped. Allied shards are better positioned in this regard because two sets of cycling lands by themselves means double chance of turning on checklands, and only a single fastland set reduces the number of lands always coming in tapped. Unlike Mardu Cars we don't have access to Spire of Industry to smooth us, and Aether Hub without support is sketchy. Unless we can get the mana figured out we're in trouble.
I see it working one of two, maybe three ways for the mana base...
4 of each dual land you listed, and just always expect to be a turn behind
-or-
Canyon Slough + Checklands then basics/Evolving Wilds and just hope we draw enough of each color
-or-
Checklands and Basics + bite the bullet and make Aether Hub work via the energy minigame
Personally, I don't like option 1, we need atleast a 2nd set of cycle duals(or Shocks) to make it work anywhere near functional.
Option 2 feels like it might be the best, but we culd still run into bad draws where we don't get the right number of colors in time and just crumple to faster decks.
Option 3 could work, but I think it makes the deck overall weaker in order to fuel Hub, I could be wrong though as I didn't play during the Kaladesh/Revolt release and have no idea of ways to support this other than the cards you listed.
Canyon Slough turns on all the checklands, Plains are first priority for Evolving Wilds, since they turn on more checklands, otherwise just grab whatever you don't have 2 of sources. Until they print more/better options for dual lands, this is the best we have to work with, imo.
It also awkwardly turns on Spire of Industry, but I dont think this is a good way to approach this. Speaking of Approach, I think that could be a possible Wincon for the Mardu deck, run tons of removal/disruption, then slam a Fall and wait for Approaches to win.
I'm trying to make room for 3-4 Treasure Maps, both for digging and for the fixing/ramp from treasure tokens. Would be handy to have 1 or 2 unflipped on the board, Fall, then scry to flip them after. Prolly too small a number of artifacts to turn on Spire of Industry, but they would add incremental value to Unlicensed Disintegration.
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In my 2 games testing, I don't like the Gods in this deck as 1-ofs, unless I start with both in hand, or get both out early. Seal Away is an absolute headache for this deck, and I'm starting to think running some form of enchantment hate might be needed or else all our plans are going to just end up Exiled under any of the several ORing clones.
3 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Noxious Gearhulk
2 Lyra Dawnbringer
3 Sunscourge Champion
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Thrashing Brontodon
Enchantments
3 Fall of the Thran
1 The Mending of Dominaria
3 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Seal Away
Instants
3 Vraska's Contempt
3 Fatal Push
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Field of Ruin
4 Scattered Groves
5 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
Planeswalkers
2 Ajani Unyielding
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Sorceries
4 Duress
2 Cast Out
1 Fatal Push
2 Seal Away
3 Moment of Craving
4 Harsh Scrutiny
1 Ixalan's Binding
I debated it in my BUG Dredge/Self-Mill build, but it's kind of a gimmick and never worked that well.
Why did you play Confusion in the Ranks ?! and Hunted Dragon ?! It's so CONFUSING!
I considered it as a SB option. That's one area I often have difficulty brewing, as I haven't followed the competitive MtG scene since RTR/THS standard.
TechnoWriter hit the nail on the head, I just can't seem to fit it all in.
Why did you play Confusion in the Ranks ?! and Hunted Dragon ?! It's so CONFUSING!
1 Sentinel Totem
1 Icy Manipulator
White Spells
1 Fan Bearer
1 Seal Away
1 Board the Weatherlight
1 Pressure Point
1 Kinjalli's Sunwing
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Fall of The Thran
1 Fumigate
Blue Spells
1 Opt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Syncopate
1 Take into Custody
1 Blink of an Eye
1 Negate
1 Merfolk Trickster
1 Galestrike
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Divination
1 Unwind
1 Wizard's Retort
1 Tempest Caller
1 River's Rebuke
1 In Bolas's Clutches
1 Blossoming Defense
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Llanowar Scout
1 Broken Bond
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Heroic Intervention
1 Sylvan Awakening
1 Beneath the Sands
1 Ranging Raptors
1 Grow from the Ashes
1 The Mending of Dominaria
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Sandwurm Convergence
Multicolor Spells
1 Atzocan Seer
1 Bounty of the Luxa
1 Dovin Baan
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
I hope this helps one of you, if not, I hope you got a chuckle at least.
Why did you play Confusion in the Ranks ?! and Hunted Dragon ?! It's so CONFUSING!
(As an aside, I'm a huge fan of "Sagageddon" and am totally stealing it.)
At this point it seems like we are still trying to figure out what the best shell is for this type of deck. So far we've got lists for Bant, Abzan, BW and 4C, plus talk of both Naya and Sultai. Of all the options and directions to take it, I think moving into midrange/control territory seems like the best way to go, and the 4C option is almost certainly the worst. Within that general "speed", we can look at ramping (likely Bant), going reactive/counter heavy (which pushes us most naturally into Bant or Esper depending on use of The Mending of Dominaria or not), and proactive/discard approach (prolly Abzan). The Naya monsters idea that Mongo suggested earlier also sounds interesting, but needs a list to start from.
Gonna do some more theorycrafting and see if I can put together some more optimized versions of some of these.
I looked, and iirc, there are atleast 3 ORing clones in standard right now, Cast Out Seal Away Ixalan's Binding which seems ridiculous. I'm not sure if this decks shell can withstand the control matchup. assuming U/W/x or super fast agro, since we cant afford as many slots for early disruption maindeck, short of a few Fatal Pushes or cheap lifegain/blocker dudes like Sunscourge Champion.
I really like the idea of this deck, since its been quite awhile since we've had a proper 'geddon effect, but I don't think the current Standard meta can support it. Perhaps post-Rotation when Kala/Aether/Amonkhet/Hour rotate, but its hard to tell yet.
Also, "Sagageddon" is an amazing name for this archetype/brew, I love it!
EDIT--And I forgot about the monsters idea I had, ill post a list shortly once I get back home.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Jadelight Ranger
3 Regisaur Alpha
3 Deathgorge Scavenger
3 Rekindling Phoenix
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 World Shaper
2 Thrashing Brontodon
2 Sunscourge Champion
Enchantments
2 The Mending of Dominaria
3 Fall of the Thran
2 Song of Freyalise
3 Seal Away
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Clifftop Retreat
2 Sheltered Thicket
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Scattered Groves
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Sunscourge Champion
2 Thrashing Brontodon
4 Ixalan's Binding
3 Heroic Intervention
4 Abrade
My rough draft for a Naya "Monsters" Sagageddon build. basic Idea is to rush out swinging, to force an answer like Fumigate, then windmill slam a Fall/Mending back to back when theyre out of lands to counter them, while using Scavengers to eat their yard to make Falls regrowth less symmetrical.
EDIT--Since posting this, ive tried testing it a few games on Cockatrice, and its actually quite good vs agro. If it resolves a Bronto, or survives the first turn long enough to form a board presence with a big enough butt to trade into a better board state, it can easily take over a game and stabilize with the incremental lifegain from Deathscourge and Sunscourge, and recurring bodies from Mending. And it gets even better for it post-board with our own removal.
Control is still a headache though, we're not fast enough to beat them down before they can stabilize, and we have to rely on them tapping out for something to stop us, before resolving a Fall and hoping to out-draw them with the lands we get back later. Post board, they often know to either play the slow game, and not tap out unless its for a sweeper, I almost want to say our SB should be transformational, turning us int a full-on R/G/w Monsters deck and take out our little combo to just charge at them head on. What say you?
I fully support the transformational board approach - I'd plugged that into my 4C build (turning into Constrictor.dek), and in a more stable shell I can only think it would be better.
3 Canyon Slough
3 Clifftop Retreat
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Mountain
3 Plains
5 Swamp
Enchantments (10)
3 Fall of the Thran
2 Ixalan's Binding
3 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Seal Away
2 Abrade
3 Fatal Push
3 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Vraska's Contempt
Sorceries (8)
2 Doomfall
4 Duress
1 Fumigate
1 Never // Return
Planeswalkers (7)
2 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Abrade
2 Authority of the Consuls
1 Cut // Ribbons
2 Doomfall
3 Glorybringer
1 Huatli, Warrior Poet
3 Rekindling Phoenix
2 Sweltering Suns
IMO, maybe a 1-2 of Liliana for an extra wincon via zombie tokens might be a decent idea.
Yeah Lili should be in there, oversight on my part (she wasn't in the base list I found, and aside from boarding Huatli I wasn't looking at the walker package). Thinking 1/1 between her and Gideon should work. My goldfishing has proved that WW on turn 3 is really difficult so one less need for that would be good. The mana still needs work. As it stands the percentages are good in terms of coloured sources to coloured requirements go, but it's low on sources in general (16B, 13R, 10W). I'm trying to bring those up but it's a challenge to get it balanced.
with so many double colored spells, the Hub/Lightning/Siphoner package might be needed, or something able to spam treasure tokens for mana fixing. I wasn't playing during the Kaladesh blocks introduction, so my knowledge on alternatives to gain more Energy counters for this deck is lacking. if you went this route however, I would say replace the Disintegrations or Abrades in the main deck, or maybe the Seal Away/Bindings.
Re: double-coloured spells, I think it's correct to pull Gideon entirely and only have the single Fumigate needing double white. That takes a little pressure of the mana base. I'm also considering adding a Karn in here pretty much just for the card draw option. Dunno if that's practical tho.
I really need to get my hands on some cards or at least see a picture of what else is out there. I'm concerned we might be loaded up too much on removal and are weaker than necessary against control (that's actually why I like Angrath main, to shore up that matchup).
All that said, I think I'm really close to a starting list I'd feel comfortable sleeving up and taking for a spin.
Allied paired duals have checklands (Dragonskull Summit) and cycling lands (Canyon Slough).
(There's also a full set of always enter tapped lands but I'd rather not consider those.)
The problem is that we can't run them all. We would have 24 lands between these, but only 4 with basic typing to turn on the checklands, and at best 5/8 fastlands coming in tapped. Allied shards are better positioned in this regard because two sets of cycling lands by themselves means double chance of turning on checklands, and only a single fastland set reduces the number of lands always coming in tapped. Unlike Mardu Cars we don't have access to Spire of Industry to smooth us, and Aether Hub without support is sketchy. Unless we can get the mana figured out we're in trouble.
4 of each dual land you listed, and just always expect to be a turn behind
-or-
Canyon Slough + Checklands then basics/Evolving Wilds and just hope we draw enough of each color
-or-
Checklands and Basics + bite the bullet and make Aether Hub work via the energy minigame
Personally, I don't like option 1, we need atleast a 2nd set of cycle duals(or Shocks) to make it work anywhere near functional.
Option 2 feels like it might be the best, but we culd still run into bad draws where we don't get the right number of colors in time and just crumple to faster decks.
Option 3 could work, but I think it makes the deck overall weaker in order to fuel Hub, I could be wrong though as I didn't play during the Kaladesh/Revolt release and have no idea of ways to support this other than the cards you listed.
Canyon Slough turns on all the checklands, Plains are first priority for Evolving Wilds, since they turn on more checklands, otherwise just grab whatever you don't have 2 of sources. Until they print more/better options for dual lands, this is the best we have to work with, imo.
It also awkwardly turns on Spire of Industry, but I dont think this is a good way to approach this. Speaking of Approach, I think that could be a possible Wincon for the Mardu deck, run tons of removal/disruption, then slam a Fall and wait for Approaches to win.