So I went 2-2, i tweeked this deck from a version that relied more on Sunmare and Bontu and hidden stockpile, I took them out and went lower to the ground adding the one drops, both of them Vicsious and Skyborne, are the real deal, so good. a 1/1 flyer is great, I got legions landing off one time and i lost but it helped (Back to back glorybringers are hard to beat) Fatal push, very good, especially because you can chump with a token and hit something big I never got a chance to get Marven Fein off because he instantly gets a target on his back, call to the feast really helped me out (3 dudes seriously) Sanctum seeker is the win con thinking of upping to 4, bishop while expensive won me some games i think he's good at a 1 of, didn't get a chance to use legion conquistador (the one time i casted him he was countered) Vona is powerful and i found myself at 30+ life in many games
The manabase is solid I had one bad mana situation all night, and even won a game off a 1 land hand. I want to swap out some basics for full playsets of the black and white pain deserts, you gain so much life the pain is negligable, and going wide giving all your 1/1 lifelinkers an anthem is really powerful
Switch out push for duress against control, never saw an opportunity to use bloodcrazed paladin, thinking of cutting him, i don't know what's better cast out or binding, i use one of each because that's just what i have and i found both of them have benefits and are good in their own way, sunmare was there just because i switched the 1 of in the maindeck for a gideon before we started probably going to cut it (I never saw a situation where I said, man I wish I had sunmare) and i went against 2 energy decks, I REALLY like solemnity but it just doesn't do it, I got it off on turn 3 but it didn't save me, if you don't get it off on turn 3 it's useless because they already have like 9 energy, and skipping turn 3 in an aggro deck just isn't what you want to do.
GAME 1 Grixis Control
Just bum rushed game one with 3 Vicious conquistadors, it's a 2/2 for B, it's damn good
Lost Game 2 to gearhulk
Kept a one swamp hand with a duress, and then drew into another duress, took out sweltering suns and a counter and won, even against back to back gearhulks
GAME 2 Simic Energy
Again just wrecked him game 1, this deck is pretty fast
G2, got solemnity off on T3 but it just wasn't enough, greenbelt rampager with a cartouche of knowledge
G3 pushed greenbelt and went wide sanctum seeker finished him
GAME 3 BU control
roughest match of the night, This guy put ALOT of money in this deck, all foils and promos, just countered/killed everything i did until he put down a scarab god I would have sided push for duress, but he had gifted aetherborne and they were a real problem so i kept some pushes to deal with him
GAME 4 Temur Energy
Won game 1
Lost to glorybringer game 2, was hurting for black mana, only time all night I had mana problems
Lost to back to back glorybringers game 3, i ixalan binded his sole rouge refiner to get though another alpha strike, if I had waited and done it to his glorybringer I could have won, also I drew into 2 solemnity in a row and thats when i decided that this card just is not good, glorybringer is a problem, it kills literally EVERYTHING in the deck, I sided out my vona's because i knew she would just die to it
So that's my report on the status of the Vamps deck, I think Rivals can really help us, this new blessing mechanic could really fit in this deck, you have ten permanents very easy.
Anyone have an suggestions? While this deck isn't that expensive, I have money to juice this up, anything i can throw in here to really take this thing up
Drop Legion conquistador for another queens commission, another Sanctum Seeker this guy is a win condition, and a Bontu the glorified just so I can have a black three drop
I have been doing some brewing with these new cards from Rivals of Ixalan and let me tell you. Radiant Destiny and Twilight Prophet are legit cards. And the best way to get to Ascend is by casting Call to the Feast and Legion's Landing. Below is a link to my current iteration of B/W vampires.
I run something similar to this a few times recently, i do not see how this mana base can consistantly hit either double black on two or double white on three. I run 3 hub and 3 unclaimed territory. I still cant get my mana where it needs to be. I run 1 angel of invention and three sun mares at my top. If you are going to run gifted run 4. Adanto is a clear 4 as well. I am not sure when we can talk about the new cards, but i found them disappointing. I also run 2 Harvestor, but with the new flying lifelinker, i think i will cut it.
Because so far, the synergies between the Deserts, Paladin, Yahenni and Elenda are proving to be strong.
Elenda + Yahenni is stronger than Commission + Call when you're attacking into a Settle the Wreckage, that's for sure. the next Elendas assure you to get back all the tokens the previous one generated too, it is really hard to beat so much resiliency.
Paladin + Martyr is very good at slowing Ram Red down, and certainly better than the eventual 1-drops that don't gain life or Adanto Vanguard, which I eventually cut because he was worse than Yahenni (yeah I know it's no the same cmc).
Overall, this list plays many cards that replace themselves and resists wrath effects rather well.
No Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle or Gifted Aetherborn ?
Mavren has been underwhelming for me and is more a consideration in mono white vampires, because, well, you don't play black and you run Monument + Angel of Invention to synergize.
Good point about Aetherborn, it is a very good creature, it's just a bit harder to cast than the other 2-drops in my list (in your list you have 6 white sources that won't let you cast it on T2), and it doesn't replace itself: I expect Abrade, Lightning Strike, Cut // Ribbons, Fatal Push, even Baffling End to be everywhere. It can be the best 2-drop nonetheless, I keep the creature in my maybe-list, and more likely to be in the SB: it fights with Moment of Craving.
top it off with Sanctum Seeker
The 2 issues I have with it is that it forces you to run into Settle, and needs a good board to be efficient, while I see the games and how I never achieve to be both the agressor and have 5+ bodies attacking. I believe Elenda is better because she plays nicely on defense, and if she's denied blocking, she can attack back and gain life. And once again, she replaces herself.
I'll edit the manabase I proposed though, because Forsaken Sanctuary is surely worse than the basic lands you have in your list. I suffered of tapped lands in several games. I suggest you to cut some lands in your list too, maybe down to 20-21.
There's definitely several ways to build a vampire deck, now I admit I don't trust the older cards cause they did nothing in the previous standard. I am biased !
Well, what is the way the deck wins with Elendra? Is the entire deck basically just about being super resilient to removal and chipping away at them? Vampire aggro doesn't really force someone into running into Settle the wreckage anymore than your current build does, just the objective is different between the two. Also my biggest gripe about the aggro list is the lack of Yahenni, Undead Partisan, since the entire point of that card in the deck is to act as insurance against getting blown out by Settle the Wreckage. Honestly, I'd keep Elendra as a sideboard option and use her and Sanctum Seeker interchangeably. Both are good cards, just that one is better in games where you're expecting a lot of mid-game removal vs early trades. If the matchup is more like Ramunap red Elendra wont even be online when most of the losses are happening.
To be honest, I prefer Famished Paladin over Paladin of Atonement with some of the combat tricks the vampires have. It reminds me of the clapper thingy for lights, except the clap is life gain and he just kind of untaps unexpectedly. Also the lowly oathsworn vampire looks hilarious when used in conjuction with things like Moment of Triumph or a lifelinker swinging in seemingly harmlessly.
Edit: Dang, this deck just kind of builds itself. How many synergistic two drop creatures are they going to make for vampires? They just wont die...
Oathsworn Vampire, Dusk Legion Zealot, and Martyr of Dusk at two, Forerunner of the Legion at three, Elenda the Dusk Rose at four, and one can add in [card]
Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle[/card] to get some spare tokens to throw in and you'll be rolling in 1/1 vampires once Adanto's Landing flips inevitably. Probably want to top the deck off with one or two Champion of Dusk to get some painful draw if the game goes long. That's not even including the new very basic lord they got. Most budget deck I've seen in ages.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, what is the way the deck wins with Elendra? Is the entire deck basically just about being super resilient to removal and chipping away at them? Vampire aggro doesn't really force someone into running into Settle the wreckage anymore than your current build does, just the objective is different between the two.
A good example that shows the difference between those 2 build-around cards are Mavren and Yahenni : while you can play either/both with any of the 4-drops, Yahenni is stronger with Elenda (gain control over Elenda's and all your creatures' deaths) while it eventually lower the number of creatures to synergize with Seeker. The other way around, Mavren gives Seeker more bodies and rewards attacking while it doesn't really help Elenda since she doesn't want to attack until she's grown up (nor some of her other vampires).
One deck is midrange (like Zombies in the previous standard), the other is aggro.
with things like Moment of Triumph or a lifelinker swinging in seemingly harmlessly.
Do you really need to play Giant Growth in your deck to make it work ? Seeker already gains you life, and Gifted Aetherborn is good at attacking into anything, but...
To be honest, I prefer Famished Paladin over Paladin of Atonement with some of the combat tricks the vampires have
The problem I have with Famished Paladin is you have to sorta build around him to make it work. Seeker is a 4-drop, so it won't untap your guy until it hits the bf AND you attack, and at this point the attack step is over and Paladin has to wait for the next turn. The other issue is that, in this case, Legion's Landing is great, but the token has to live until T3 and attack with Paladin to trigger the untap post-combat. Gifted Aetherborn works too but it's unlikely to curve Landing into Aetherborn with our manabase. We don't have vampires that gain life when ETB, otherwise it woud've saved tempo. We have to be attacking to untap that little boy, and that is bad. So yeah, we have a combat trick, but you have to cast it before combat if paladin (and Oathsworn) is tapped. Not very convincing on paper...
On the other hand, our manabase is already working with Paladin of Atonement, that's what seduced me in the first place: no need to build around him besides playing cards we already consider otherwise (Yahenni and Zealot).
Actually the combat trick is most useful when the opponent is swinging in. Moment of Triumph is basically a white removal spell that can double as a way to help finish the game. The card that Famished Paladin reminds me the most of is Nettle Sentinel, though in the case of the latter it had a different angle than the paladin does.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm currently trying Twilight Prophet in place of Elenda right now. It has a serious advantage as a flyer, cause evasion is something I miss very much. It also has reach (kind of the same way Seeker has) thanks to its Bob ability.
The least impressive card so far has been the Zealot, but it's deceptively useful the same way Elvish Visionary is. It's always the creature I side out.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Posted this in the other BW Vamp thread so figured I'd post it here too, lol
Several vampires on the field, token's and regular Vamp's, lets say around 7 or 8 for this example.
Play a Bishop of the Bloodstained hit for 7-8 damage on ETB, pass turn, (unless you have enough mana, then play Acrobatic Maneuver ) next turn providing you didn't loose any creatures play Acrobatic Maneuver on Bishop hit for 7-8 on ETB again and then attack!
@Arjin why would you need to play tricks like this with 7 creatures on the battlefield? Scenarios like this are pure fantasy, it never happens in a Standard at a competitive level. Bishop will hit for 2/3 if you're lucky, for 5 mana to get a 3/3 that's a tough investment. Compare that to Glorybringer who will take down a x/4 creature AND hit for 4 the turn it comes into play, there's not even a comparison in terms of impact.
@Arjin why would you need to play tricks like this with 7 creatures on the battlefield? Scenarios like this are pure fantasy, it never happens in a Standard at a competitive level. Bishop will hit for 2/3 if you're lucky, for 5 mana to get a 3/3 that's a tough investment. Compare that to Glorybringer who will take down a x/4 creature AND hit for 4 the turn it comes into play, there's not even a comparison in terms of impact.
Well in my play testing I have managed to hit for 6 and 6 consecutively for the win using that method, I know that won't always be the case, however as a win condition it makes for a fabulous whack whack game over when it happens. And getting to 7 creatures on the board really isn't too hard with all of the token gen Vamp's have. It was simply an idea to add in another win con possibility for the BW Vamp deck.
Feedback from the 2 4-drops I tested :
Elenda wins over Prophet. The latter doesn't do anyhting when it etb, and often reveals low cmc cards, not a very impressive finisher. While Elenda turns any creature that dies under her watch into a 3/3 vampire at some point. Works so well with deserts and anthems anyway...
Prophet might be good in another shell, but with vampires, Elenda kicks his butt hard.
With vampires I really want to have both Dusk // Dawn and Zealous Persecution. Those two spells cover so much ground with this tribe due to the low power level of the creatures. Unfortunately, the latter of the two only shows up in the supplementary product so it isn't standard legal. My favorite five drop for vampires is Champion of Dusk that lets us refill our hand based on out board.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Dusk // Dawn should be in the sideboard, right ? We can get back everything we play. It's really good in my list at least (Elenda and Paladin value !).
Panharmonicon is similar to Path of Descendancy, it doesn't do anything when ETB, is too high in the curve, and looks winmore (people play Oketra's Monument without it). There's already enough stuff to work with in order to make a Bontu's Monument deck function, then if a 4cmc do-nothing card is necessary, it's a bad sign for the deck.
Bloodletter seems too low-impact on its own.
The Bishop is bad because it doesn't gain life and - in nowadays standards - is a bad beater. Gray Merchant of Asphodel drained and was decent back in the day. Bishop as the 5-drop is so bad in comparison with the other 5-drops in the format. And it's a castle of cards : if you don't have a board, you end up being in the position of slow-rolling a 5-drop, waiting for other vampires to stall the board, which might never happen when players have acces to 5+ mana anyway.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
drunken friday night with Rogue Deck Builder. I actually only remember a little from it and it was a semi-community effort. Also had a really wierd idea with the new phoenix. This is more like a mono-black vampire list that fires off cast triggers, but it's interesting.
Also, keep in mind that those "do nothing" cards are often perfectly good as one or two of cards to help finish or close a game. I would never run 4x Panharmonicon, but I'd certainly run two if Abrade is currently not being played a ton.
On another note, I might go down something for another Bontu so I got 5x sacrifice outlets. It looks like the shell can work, just it needs a bit more work. Also 22 lands is probably low for this considering the deck really wants 4x bishops.
I'm actually posting this here to show that one doesn't need to go blindly into a lord / anthem type strategy with vampires. In fact, that's probably the worst approach possible because you can never win the race against pirates. They are the most aggressive tribe in the new block and have tools to shut down a lot of wannabe aggro decks. That's also kind of the problem with Merfolk go wide strategies.
Basically, just looking through ixalan spoilers the pirates got a total of 8x one drops that have 2 power right off the bat, 8x two drops that have two power and flying, a 2 drop flash tribal ambush viper to counter greedy attackers, a tribal board sweep that can annihilate a field of 1/1 or 2/2 creatures, and got an aggressive lord at uncommon as a capstone that gives their tribe +2 attack across the entire board. There is no strategy in the other colors that is going to match the damage output from pirates in a raw combat build so my thought is just not worry about that approach. Also, I'm saying this about an ixalan tribe: Ramunap Red has even higher damage output. However, Ramunap has more trouble with a field cluttered with 1/1 token creatures because they rely on Earthshaker Khenra as a corner stone along with Hazoret the Fervent.
That being said, I think merfolk is still a good tribe, just they need a game plan to deal with aggressive pirates and ramunap, while also being able to compete on speed with decks like God Pharaoh's Gift + Refurbish type strategies. Also go wide strategies with vampires are completely playable, just I wouldn't try to run it in an aggressive shell. Vampires are not aggressive as much as a slow roll attrition strategy. Also they have a few good tricks for vampire tokens thanks to Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun and Bishop of Binding. A lot of people are underestimating how useful the bishop is because of the fact it's a 1/1 vulnerable to removal. The only issue I have with the bishop is with all the pingy things flying around. Could it kill wizards to give 4 drops one more toughness? People are going to be packing Chandra's Pyrohelix as a sideboard card and turning this into vampire / pirate duck hunt.
Oh man, this song is just not going to go away. Orzhov, how did you manage to invade a new plane without even having a single guild mage showing up? Everything always comes back to the church of Orzhov... People are dieing left and right over a magical doomsday artifact on Ixalan, with vampires playing the stakes with blood and gold. For the church of Orzhov, it's a Tuesday.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree with most of what you say ! And yeah the vamp combo is interesting to test (I think another topic is about that shell in particular), still I'm not sure you need to add Panharmo in the mix...
In my current list, I have cut 2 Legion's Landings for 2 Gideon of the Trials. Never // Return is also on my myabe list for the SB. Landing is not impressive and there's many games where I actually want to play Mimic before the enchant. I still keep 2 as an Ascend enabler and a late game engine.
The reason behind Gideon is that Approach, Climb and Hazoret are tough to beat G1.
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cool ideam but Panharmonicon is really slow. It dies to Abrade, so I would be really wary of playing this card. It's great when it synergizes, but with all the ETB triggers that exist in Standard, it never managed to find a home anywhere. That's not the sign of a good card, and I don't think a drain life effect is going to change that (e.g you can draw 2 cards with Rogue Refiner or 4 cards + 4 life with Cloudblazer, it looks bonkers but never took off despite many attempts for people to break this card).
If you start playing monuments on top of that, you're depleting your deck of the most vital resources, which is creatures. Based on their power level, running less than 28 isn't going to work. There's not much room for extraneous cards in a deck like this.
Don't try too hard, I think either go with Oketra's Monumnent to go wider, or Bontu's Monument to pile up the drain life effects.
I guess I don't see the need for 28 creatures, that's going overboard by a long shot. Probably 24-26 is okay. Panharmonicon is a card I've been running for ages and it works way better than people give it credit for. However, it's not good all the time due to the fact it's more of a way to speed up a strategy than build a strategy, which is why I've always kept it to a 1 or 2 of in most of the decks I used that run it. Also not all decks run red and if I suspect Abrade I just side it out since the kind of deck that runs that isn't even the type of deck that Panharmonicon is good against. It sounds great to get double exile triggers or the like, but that doesn't matter when the other side has Lightning Strike and other removal aplenty.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
New List I'm experimenting with by dabbling with blue. This one is a lot more interactive with the opponents board, which I like given how uninteractive merfolk are. On the other hand I'm still juggling the mana-base. Also, I like how adding blue gives access to tools like Negate.
Also, Slaughter the strong is good. In fact, it's probably better than Dusk // dawn as it forces them to sacrifice creatures. Given how much indestructible is flying around right now it's going to be important to be able to force edicts.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's really interesting to compare both, as they should make an impact according to what metagame we end up playing in. UW Gift wants an Angel in play, and if they play around Slaughter, they can make it a 4/4 and they eventually win. Dusk would kill it no matter what. Rx aggro will lose Hazoret vs Slaughter but it's situational. In most cases those wraths aren't super efficient as they can keep 3 creatures (Kari Zev being among the most frightening).
I can see myself run 2 Slaugter for the low curve aggros, and still one Dusk for the midgame in creature MUs. All of this in the SB if Control decks are a decent part of the meta, which sould be the case. I don't see myself playing too many dead cards in the MD.
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It's really interesting to compare both, as they should make an impact according to what metagame we end up playing in. UW Gift wants an Angel in play, and if they play around Slaughter, they can make it a 4/4 and they eventually win. Dusk would kill it no matter what. Rx aggro will lose Hazoret vs Slaughter but it's situational. In most cases those wraths aren't super efficient as they can keep 3 creatures (Kari Zev being among the most frightening).
I can see myself run 2 Slaugter for the low curve aggros, and still one Dusk for the midgame in creature MUs. All of this in the SB if Control decks are a decent part of the meta, which sould be the case. I don't see myself playing too many dead cards in the MD.
I'm thinking we may see ascend actually become playable as well later on. They have support for a jund build at the moment, but fumigate and hour of devastation are an issue.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, Duress effects (or Negate if you run blue) are 4-of in SBs I think. My list fights well against wraths with Elenda, Yahenni, Gideon and Martyr. Legion's Landing is quite good post-wrath, as it makes 3/3 tokens at some point.
Lost Legacy hits various cards hard to beat like Angel of Invention, the Scarab God and who knows what else. It's a nice card I like to have when I face a new metagame. If I see I'm unprepared for a strategy, at least I can try to get rid of that unbeatable combo, synergy or stand alone card.
As I checked what creatures would annoy me, I feel like Moment of Craving will be a trap in my list. I don't mind x/2s more the the bigger stuff. I can't afford 4 Walk the Plank so I split it with Baffling End, both sorcery-speed removal but I didn't see any other good isntant-speed option at 1-2 cmc. Gideon's Defeat can be great if white becomes dominant (Dinos + Vamps + Gift + Vehicles).
Edit:
I also want to try to make Gifted Aetherborn work. I can do -2 Gideon, + 2 Swamp, -4 Martyr, +4 Aetherborn.
The card is so tempting with the lords, and Martyr, while synergistic with Yahenni and good against Red aggro, is the least impactful card in my testing. I must figure out whether 22 lands is too many as well, or if it's necessary. I didn't suffer from harsh mulligans, but I often feel like I can only play one spell a turn and have trouble dropping my hand quick.
So I went 2-2, i tweeked this deck from a version that relied more on Sunmare and Bontu and hidden stockpile, I took them out and went lower to the ground adding the one drops, both of them Vicsious and Skyborne, are the real deal, so good. a 1/1 flyer is great, I got legions landing off one time and i lost but it helped (Back to back glorybringers are hard to beat) Fatal push, very good, especially because you can chump with a token and hit something big I never got a chance to get Marven Fein off because he instantly gets a target on his back, call to the feast really helped me out (3 dudes seriously) Sanctum seeker is the win con thinking of upping to 4, bishop while expensive won me some games i think he's good at a 1 of, didn't get a chance to use legion conquistador (the one time i casted him he was countered) Vona is powerful and i found myself at 30+ life in many games
The manabase is solid I had one bad mana situation all night, and even won a game off a 1 land hand. I want to swap out some basics for full playsets of the black and white pain deserts, you gain so much life the pain is negligable, and going wide giving all your 1/1 lifelinkers an anthem is really powerful
Switch out push for duress against control, never saw an opportunity to use bloodcrazed paladin, thinking of cutting him, i don't know what's better cast out or binding, i use one of each because that's just what i have and i found both of them have benefits and are good in their own way, sunmare was there just because i switched the 1 of in the maindeck for a gideon before we started probably going to cut it (I never saw a situation where I said, man I wish I had sunmare) and i went against 2 energy decks, I REALLY like solemnity but it just doesn't do it, I got it off on turn 3 but it didn't save me, if you don't get it off on turn 3 it's useless because they already have like 9 energy, and skipping turn 3 in an aggro deck just isn't what you want to do.
GAME 1 Grixis Control
Just bum rushed game one with 3 Vicious conquistadors, it's a 2/2 for B, it's damn good
Lost Game 2 to gearhulk
Kept a one swamp hand with a duress, and then drew into another duress, took out sweltering suns and a counter and won, even against back to back gearhulks
GAME 2 Simic Energy
Again just wrecked him game 1, this deck is pretty fast
G2, got solemnity off on T3 but it just wasn't enough, greenbelt rampager with a cartouche of knowledge
G3 pushed greenbelt and went wide sanctum seeker finished him
GAME 3 BU control
roughest match of the night, This guy put ALOT of money in this deck, all foils and promos, just countered/killed everything i did until he put down a scarab god I would have sided push for duress, but he had gifted aetherborne and they were a real problem so i kept some pushes to deal with him
GAME 4 Temur Energy
Won game 1
Lost to glorybringer game 2, was hurting for black mana, only time all night I had mana problems
Lost to back to back glorybringers game 3, i ixalan binded his sole rouge refiner to get though another alpha strike, if I had waited and done it to his glorybringer I could have won, also I drew into 2 solemnity in a row and thats when i decided that this card just is not good, glorybringer is a problem, it kills literally EVERYTHING in the deck, I sided out my vona's because i knew she would just die to it
So that's my report on the status of the Vamps deck, I think Rivals can really help us, this new blessing mechanic could really fit in this deck, you have ten permanents very easy.
Anyone have an suggestions? While this deck isn't that expensive, I have money to juice this up, anything i can throw in here to really take this thing up
Drop Call to the feast for Queens Commission so i can t3 get 2 guys, t4 sanctum seeker 4 damage +4 drain (+1 from vicious)
Drop Legion conquistador for another queens commission, another Sanctum Seeker this guy is a win condition, and a Bontu the glorified just so I can have a black three drop
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/881811
3 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
4 Paladin of Atonement
4 Legion Lieutenant
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Dusk Legion Zealot
4 Martyr of Dusk
4 Radiant Destiny
2 Ixalan's Binding
4 Fatal Push
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Shefet Dunes
4 Ifnir Deadlands
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Forsaken Sanctuary
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Ascend isn't needed with Radiant Destiny to be good. If Vona's Hunger and/or Golden Demise happens to be a must in the SB, well then I'll consider Call to the Feast and Queen's Commission again, but I'm not even sure it would make the cut.
Because so far, the synergies between the Deserts, Paladin, Yahenni and Elenda are proving to be strong.
Elenda + Yahenni is stronger than Commission + Call when you're attacking into a Settle the Wreckage, that's for sure. the next Elendas assure you to get back all the tokens the previous one generated too, it is really hard to beat so much resiliency.
Paladin + Martyr is very good at slowing Ram Red down, and certainly better than the eventual 1-drops that don't gain life or Adanto Vanguard, which I eventually cut because he was worse than Yahenni (yeah I know it's no the same cmc).
Overall, this list plays many cards that replace themselves and resists wrath effects rather well.
I'd go more aggro with the deck (Vicious Conquistador + Skymarcher Aspirant) and top it off with Sanctum Seeker
(the vampire Hellrider/Brutal Hordechief).
4x Skymarcher Aspirant
4x Vicious Conquistador
4x Gifted Aetherborn
4x Legion Lieutenant
4x Metallic Mimic
3x Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle
4x Sanctum Seeker
3x Legion's Landing
3x Cast Out
Instant (4)
4x Fatal Push
Land (23)
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Shefet Dunes
4 Ifnir Deadlands
5 Swamp
2 Plains
Another 1-drop option is Duskborne Skymarcher but I doubt if it is better than Vicious Conquistador.
Mavren has been underwhelming for me and is more a consideration in mono white vampires, because, well, you don't play black and you run Monument + Angel of Invention to synergize.
Good point about Aetherborn, it is a very good creature, it's just a bit harder to cast than the other 2-drops in my list (in your list you have 6 white sources that won't let you cast it on T2), and it doesn't replace itself: I expect Abrade, Lightning Strike, Cut // Ribbons, Fatal Push, even Baffling End to be everywhere. It can be the best 2-drop nonetheless, I keep the creature in my maybe-list, and more likely to be in the SB: it fights with Moment of Craving.
The 2 issues I have with it is that it forces you to run into Settle, and needs a good board to be efficient, while I see the games and how I never achieve to be both the agressor and have 5+ bodies attacking. I believe Elenda is better because she plays nicely on defense, and if she's denied blocking, she can attack back and gain life. And once again, she replaces herself.
I'll edit the manabase I proposed though, because Forsaken Sanctuary is surely worse than the basic lands you have in your list. I suffered of tapped lands in several games. I suggest you to cut some lands in your list too, maybe down to 20-21.
There's definitely several ways to build a vampire deck, now I admit I don't trust the older cards cause they did nothing in the previous standard. I am biased !
To be honest, I prefer Famished Paladin over Paladin of Atonement with some of the combat tricks the vampires have. It reminds me of the clapper thingy for lights, except the clap is life gain and he just kind of untaps unexpectedly. Also the lowly oathsworn vampire looks hilarious when used in conjuction with things like Moment of Triumph or a lifelinker swinging in seemingly harmlessly.
Edit: Dang, this deck just kind of builds itself. How many synergistic two drop creatures are they going to make for vampires? They just wont die...
Oathsworn Vampire, Dusk Legion Zealot, and Martyr of Dusk at two, Forerunner of the Legion at three, Elenda the Dusk Rose at four, and one can add in [card]
Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle[/card] to get some spare tokens to throw in and you'll be rolling in 1/1 vampires once Adanto's Landing flips inevitably. Probably want to top the deck off with one or two Champion of Dusk to get some painful draw if the game goes long. That's not even including the new very basic lord they got. Most budget deck I've seen in ages.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Elenda grows and grinds to eventually die, making big tokens thanks to anthems. I doubt Seeker wants Radiant Destiny since this slot could be creatures instead (Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle or Queen's Commission), and rather wants to be the aggressor with Adanto Vanguard and Oathsworn Vampire.
A good example that shows the difference between those 2 build-around cards are Mavren and Yahenni : while you can play either/both with any of the 4-drops, Yahenni is stronger with Elenda (gain control over Elenda's and all your creatures' deaths) while it eventually lower the number of creatures to synergize with Seeker. The other way around, Mavren gives Seeker more bodies and rewards attacking while it doesn't really help Elenda since she doesn't want to attack until she's grown up (nor some of her other vampires).
One deck is midrange (like Zombies in the previous standard), the other is aggro.
Do you really need to play Giant Growth in your deck to make it work ? Seeker already gains you life, and Gifted Aetherborn is good at attacking into anything, but...
The problem I have with Famished Paladin is you have to sorta build around him to make it work. Seeker is a 4-drop, so it won't untap your guy until it hits the bf AND you attack, and at this point the attack step is over and Paladin has to wait for the next turn. The other issue is that, in this case, Legion's Landing is great, but the token has to live until T3 and attack with Paladin to trigger the untap post-combat. Gifted Aetherborn works too but it's unlikely to curve Landing into Aetherborn with our manabase. We don't have vampires that gain life when ETB, otherwise it woud've saved tempo. We have to be attacking to untap that little boy, and that is bad. So yeah, we have a combat trick, but you have to cast it before combat if paladin (and Oathsworn) is tapped. Not very convincing on paper...
On the other hand, our manabase is already working with Paladin of Atonement, that's what seduced me in the first place: no need to build around him besides playing cards we already consider otherwise (Yahenni and Zealot).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm currently trying Twilight Prophet in place of Elenda right now. It has a serious advantage as a flyer, cause evasion is something I miss very much. It also has reach (kind of the same way Seeker has) thanks to its Bob ability.
The least impressive card so far has been the Zealot, but it's deceptively useful the same way Elvish Visionary is. It's always the creature I side out.
Several vampires on the field, token's and regular Vamp's, lets say around 7 or 8 for this example.
Play a Bishop of the Bloodstained hit for 7-8 damage on ETB, pass turn, (unless you have enough mana, then play Acrobatic Maneuver ) next turn providing you didn't loose any creatures play Acrobatic Maneuver on Bishop hit for 7-8 on ETB again and then attack!
Thoughts???
Well in my play testing I have managed to hit for 6 and 6 consecutively for the win using that method, I know that won't always be the case, however as a win condition it makes for a fabulous whack whack game over when it happens. And getting to 7 creatures on the board really isn't too hard with all of the token gen Vamp's have. It was simply an idea to add in another win con possibility for the BW Vamp deck.
Elenda wins over Prophet. The latter doesn't do anyhting when it etb, and often reveals low cmc cards, not a very impressive finisher. While Elenda turns any creature that dies under her watch into a 3/3 vampire at some point. Works so well with deserts and anthems anyway...
Prophet might be good in another shell, but with vampires, Elenda kicks his butt hard.
Bishop of the Bloodstained is a worse version of Sanctum Seeker, I don't see how you would play a 5-drop over a 4-drop that can repeatedly do a better effect.
Actually, I kind of like Panharmonicon as a two of in the deck given how many ETB triggers the vampires have. You can combo that card with Oketra's Monument or any monument to boost the effect. Bontu's Monument + Bishop of the Bloodstained and Panharmonicon with recurring vampires is pretty sweet. Not to mention Skymarch Bloodletter.
I'm actually a little worried about Cataclysmic Gearhulk right now since go wide strategies are going to get nuked hard by it.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Panharmonicon is similar to Path of Descendancy, it doesn't do anything when ETB, is too high in the curve, and looks winmore (people play Oketra's Monument without it). There's already enough stuff to work with in order to make a Bontu's Monument deck function, then if a 4cmc do-nothing card is necessary, it's a bad sign for the deck.
Bloodletter seems too low-impact on its own.
The Bishop is bad because it doesn't gain life and - in nowadays standards - is a bad beater. Gray Merchant of Asphodel drained and was decent back in the day. Bishop as the 5-drop is so bad in comparison with the other 5-drops in the format. And it's a castle of cards : if you don't have a board, you end up being in the position of slow-rolling a 5-drop, waiting for other vampires to stall the board, which might never happen when players have acces to 5+ mana anyway.
2 Field of Ruin
3 Ifnir Deadlands
17 Swamp
Artifacts
4 Bontu's Monument
4 Gate to the Afterlife
1 God-Pharaoh's Gift
2 Panharmonicon
4 Fatal Push
Creatures
4 Bishop of the Bloodstained
4 Gifted Aetherborn
4 Oathsworn Vampire
4 Pitiless Plunderer
3 Skymarch Bloodletter
1 Bontu the Glorified
3 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
drunken friday night with Rogue Deck Builder. I actually only remember a little from it and it was a semi-community effort. Also had a really wierd idea with the new phoenix. This is more like a mono-black vampire list that fires off cast triggers, but it's interesting.
Also, keep in mind that those "do nothing" cards are often perfectly good as one or two of cards to help finish or close a game. I would never run 4x Panharmonicon, but I'd certainly run two if Abrade is currently not being played a ton.
On another note, I might go down something for another Bontu so I got 5x sacrifice outlets. It looks like the shell can work, just it needs a bit more work. Also 22 lands is probably low for this considering the deck really wants 4x bishops.
I'm actually posting this here to show that one doesn't need to go blindly into a lord / anthem type strategy with vampires. In fact, that's probably the worst approach possible because you can never win the race against pirates. They are the most aggressive tribe in the new block and have tools to shut down a lot of wannabe aggro decks. That's also kind of the problem with Merfolk go wide strategies.
Basically, just looking through ixalan spoilers the pirates got a total of 8x one drops that have 2 power right off the bat, 8x two drops that have two power and flying, a 2 drop flash tribal ambush viper to counter greedy attackers, a tribal board sweep that can annihilate a field of 1/1 or 2/2 creatures, and got an aggressive lord at uncommon as a capstone that gives their tribe +2 attack across the entire board. There is no strategy in the other colors that is going to match the damage output from pirates in a raw combat build so my thought is just not worry about that approach. Also, I'm saying this about an ixalan tribe: Ramunap Red has even higher damage output. However, Ramunap has more trouble with a field cluttered with 1/1 token creatures because they rely on Earthshaker Khenra as a corner stone along with Hazoret the Fervent.
That being said, I think merfolk is still a good tribe, just they need a game plan to deal with aggressive pirates and ramunap, while also being able to compete on speed with decks like God Pharaoh's Gift + Refurbish type strategies. Also go wide strategies with vampires are completely playable, just I wouldn't try to run it in an aggressive shell. Vampires are not aggressive as much as a slow roll attrition strategy. Also they have a few good tricks for vampire tokens thanks to Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun and Bishop of Binding. A lot of people are underestimating how useful the bishop is because of the fact it's a 1/1 vulnerable to removal. The only issue I have with the bishop is with all the pingy things flying around. Could it kill wizards to give 4 drops one more toughness? People are going to be packing Chandra's Pyrohelix as a sideboard card and turning this into vampire / pirate duck hunt.
Oh man, this song is just not going to go away. Orzhov, how did you manage to invade a new plane without even having a single guild mage showing up? Everything always comes back to the church of Orzhov... People are dieing left and right over a magical doomsday artifact on Ixalan, with vampires playing the stakes with blood and gold. For the church of Orzhov, it's a Tuesday.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In my current list, I have cut 2 Legion's Landings for 2 Gideon of the Trials. Never // Return is also on my myabe list for the SB. Landing is not impressive and there's many games where I actually want to play Mimic before the enchant. I still keep 2 as an Ascend enabler and a late game engine.
The reason behind Gideon is that Approach, Climb and Hazoret are tough to beat G1.
If you start playing monuments on top of that, you're depleting your deck of the most vital resources, which is creatures. Based on their power level, running less than 28 isn't going to work. There's not much room for extraneous cards in a deck like this.
Don't try too hard, I think either go with Oketra's Monumnent to go wider, or Bontu's Monument to pile up the drain life effects.
I don't think Panharmonicon makes the cut, though. Not if I'm also using God Pharaoh's Gift, which is eating up the flex slots already as I need the draw off the Gate to the Afterlife.
Probably -2 Panharmonicon, and +1 Bontu the Glorified, +1 Skymarch Bloodletter. If I really wanted to go all in on creatures Bone picker is probably the next best thing over Fatal Push.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Irrigated Farmland
2 Island
5 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Unclaimed Territory
Spells
4 Legion's Landing
2 Moment of Craving
3 Moment of Triumph
3 Slaughter the Strong
4 Bishop of Binding
4 Duskborne Skymarcher
4 Legion Lieutenant
3 Martyr of Dusk
3 Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle
4 Oathsworn Vampire
3 Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun
3 Baffling End
1 Cast Out
3 Gideon of the Trials
1 Ixalan's Binding
1 Moment of Craving
3 Negate
3 Sheltering Light
Also, Slaughter the strong is good. In fact, it's probably better than Dusk // dawn as it forces them to sacrifice creatures. Given how much indestructible is flying around right now it's going to be important to be able to force edicts.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UW Gift wants an Angel in play, and if they play around Slaughter, they can make it a 4/4 and they eventually win. Dusk would kill it no matter what.
Rx aggro will lose Hazoret vs Slaughter but it's situational. In most cases those wraths aren't super efficient as they can keep 3 creatures (Kari Zev being among the most frightening).
I can see myself run 2 Slaugter for the low curve aggros, and still one Dusk for the midgame in creature MUs. All of this in the SB if Control decks are a decent part of the meta, which sould be the case. I don't see myself playing too many dead cards in the MD.
I'm thinking we may see ascend actually become playable as well later on. They have support for a jund build at the moment, but fumigate and hour of devastation are an issue.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
With the bannings now pronounced, here's my 75 :
3 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
4 Paladin of Atonement
4 Legion Lieutenant
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Dusk Legion Zealot
4 Martyr of Dusk
4 Fatal Push
3 Thopter Arrest
3 Radiant Destiny
2 Gideon of the Trials
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Shefet Dunes
4 Ifnir Deadlands
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Forsaken Sanctuary
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Duress
2 Lost Legacy
2 Walk the Plank
1 Dusk // Dawn
I want Grounds (better than Crook & cie) VS the Scarab God, Torrential Gearhulk and God Pharaoh's Gift.
Lost Legacy hits various cards hard to beat like Angel of Invention, the Scarab God and who knows what else. It's a nice card I like to have when I face a new metagame. If I see I'm unprepared for a strategy, at least I can try to get rid of that unbeatable combo, synergy or stand alone card.
As I checked what creatures would annoy me, I feel like Moment of Craving will be a trap in my list. I don't mind x/2s more the the bigger stuff. I can't afford 4 Walk the Plank so I split it with Baffling End, both sorcery-speed removal but I didn't see any other good isntant-speed option at 1-2 cmc. Gideon's Defeat can be great if white becomes dominant (Dinos + Vamps + Gift + Vehicles).
Edit:
I also want to try to make Gifted Aetherborn work. I can do -2 Gideon, + 2 Swamp, -4 Martyr, +4 Aetherborn.
The card is so tempting with the lords, and Martyr, while synergistic with Yahenni and good against Red aggro, is the least impactful card in my testing. I must figure out whether 22 lands is too many as well, or if it's necessary. I didn't suffer from harsh mulligans, but I often feel like I can only play one spell a turn and have trouble dropping my hand quick.