I'm really not clear on what your point is. You list a bunch of spells that Negate is good against, and this somehow is an argument for Heroic Intervention?
No, the 6 defensive spells are not enough against control decks. It's not a good matchup main. What's your cure?
Right, because Negate can allow you to swarm attack. Or get a free set of chump-blocks. You do read the whole thing, don't you?
Actually, I'm beginning to doubt that particularly.
Not much of a debate for me, considering that I run 4 Negates along with the Interventions in one deck, and with the four Interventions in SB in the other.
Ive had a bit of success with my build. I’m torn between replacing blossoming defense with either spell pierce or dive down. My strategy is both the +1+1 counters and token swarm. I’ve had plenty of games where I was board wiped, but bc of token generator, I was able to win.
Still working on it, but I’m looking at
3 negate
3 of the green merfolk that give 1 merfolk hexproof when put in play with flash
2 Vivien Reid from set
2 dive down/ spell pierce
2 kopala
3 unknown/ waiting for Ravnica
Rather than sleep, I'd play Tempest Caller. Same cost, similar effect, and it's another Merfolk. Allows for a lethal swing on a creature heavy board. I do like Swift Warden as well, I need to find a spot for him in my deck.
Rather than sleep, I'd play Tempest Caller. Same cost, similar effect, and it's another Merfolk. Allows for a lethal swing on a creature heavy board. I do like Swift Warden as well, I need to find a spot for him in my deck.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
I never played with Sleep, but tried and discarded Tempest Caller because the deck is already busy enough. (I've been running a counters/swarm concept for 4 months now, see A Fine Kettle of Fish in my sig.) 4 mana is tough to get around to having free unless it has Flash.
Rather than sleep, I'd play Tempest Caller. Same cost, similar effect, and it's another Merfolk. Allows for a lethal swing on a creature heavy board. I do like Swift Warden as well, I need to find a spot for him in my deck.
Nah, it actually makes sense because sleep is instant speed. Both cards have their use.
Rather than sleep, I'd play Tempest Caller. Same cost, similar effect, and it's another Merfolk. Allows for a lethal swing on a creature heavy board. I do like Swift Warden as well, I need to find a spot for him in my deck.
Nah, it actually makes sense because sleep is instant speed. Both cards have their use.
Instant speed?
I misread that. I stand corrected. It's a sorcery :\
Now, you can still play them different ways. Either you can bring in Tempest Caller and then swarm the OP. Or you can use Sleep And either stall the game or get 2 chances to swing for big damage. If I'm right because they don't untap on OP's turn.
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Bah. Thank you, Wizards, for killing UG Merfolk for four months. No merfolk in GRN at all, no Simic, not even a UG dual land. Wizards got an upgrade, though, and my mono-blue Merfolk deck is looking well-positioned, though even that was hurt with the rotation of Unsummon and Crook of Condemnation. Looks like I'm going to be absent for a while.
I know, try to keep the cheers down to a dull roar.
Same boat, sad face. What is the Wizards update you are thinking? Wee Dragonauts? From my perspective, Wizards did not get nearly enough support even though Izzet is a supported guild!
Same boat, sad face. What is the Wizards update you are thinking? Wee Dragonauts? From my perspective, Wizards did not get nearly enough support even though Izzet is a supported guild!
Bah. Thank you, Wizards, for killing UG Merfolk for four months. No merfolk in GRN at all, no Simic, not even a UG dual land. Wizards got an upgrade, though, and my mono-blue Merfolk deck is looking well-positioned, though even that was hurt with the rotation of Unsummon and Crook of Condemnation. Looks like I'm going to be absent for a while.
I know, try to keep the cheers down to a dull roar.
Merfolk wasn't a represented deck at all before rotation and will only get better as many of the established decks don't survive rotation while Merfolk barely lose anything at all despite not getting much of anything.
Bah. Thank you, Wizards, for killing UG Merfolk for four months. No merfolk in GRN at all, no Simic, not even a UG dual land. Wizards got an upgrade, though, and my mono-blue Merfolk deck is looking well-positioned, though even that was hurt with the rotation of Unsummon and Crook of Condemnation. Looks like I'm going to be absent for a while.
I know, try to keep the cheers down to a dull roar.
Merfolk wasn't a represented deck at all before rotation and will only get better as many of the established decks don't survive rotation while Merfolk barely lose anything at all despite not getting much of anything.
Uh...Botanical Sanctum for Woodland Stream? No worries, that sound you heard was your game slowing down... Yeah, that'll help. Burn, Goblins, Wizards, Elves all got upgrades, and UW Control and Humans are still the elephants in the room as they were before. No problem at all.
Regarding the other tribes (there is no "Humans" deck in Standard) you've mentioned they weren't even competitive options besides "Wizards" which was a fringe deck and loses its best 1-drop in Soul-Scar Mage.
"Revised" has nothing to do with the current Standard format which I've been referring to by stating that Merfolk wasn't a represented deck on the competitive level.
No need for sarcasm if you can't get your facts straight.
Regarding the other tribes (there is no "Humans" deck in Standard) you've mentioned they weren't even competitive options besides "Wizards" which was a fringe deck and loses its best 1-drop in Soul-Scar Mage.
"Revised" has nothing to do with the current Standard format which I've been referring to by stating that Merfolk wasn't a represented deck on the competitive level.
No need for sarcasm if you can't get your facts straight.
Check out MTG Top8 or MTGOstats for PTQ's and GP's. Merfolk isn't huge, but it's nearly always there. So spare me the talk about representation. I might also add that of the five decks I have posted here and 14 on TappedOut, by far the ones that have the most looks are my Standard Merfolk decks...like by a factor of four on Tapped Out and two to four here. And the mono-U deck is less than a month old, already surpassing my aggro build and climbing the ladder toward the swarm deck, both of which are four months old.
I don't impute a lot of credibility to someone who doesn't list a single merfolk deck in his sig, or even a standard deck. I don't see much money where your mouth is (actually, I don't see any). Unclaimed Territory is fine if you're running all creatures, which is not a recipe for success unless you like mana screw. (Btw, my post-rotation UG decks both run it as a 2-of *with* Woodland Stream and Hinterland Harbor, not that it matters. I won't be playing them, instead focusing on my mono-U and Wizards builds until at least the next release. And with 17 of 75 cards from my Wizards rotating out, it's going to need a complete rework.) But if you seriously think that running basics over Woodland Stream is going to be workable you really need to actually play Merfolk before you comment on it. When was the last time you designed a merfolk deck? How about wizards?
As for Wizards, it gets a series of upgrades, particularly Goblin Electromancer, Electrostatic Field, and a couple of new burn spells. Soul-Scar Mage will not be missed. I wonder how much Ken Yukuhiro missed it running his Top 8 mono-U Wizards deck at the Japan Nationals? (Top 4, actually; he lost in the semis.)
I’ve updated the deck and it runs pretty smooth, I’m looking to take this to a big event in the next few months. I know Breeding Pool isn’t legal yet, but I’m getting ready. Jace is still my own personal tech and I’ve tested the 4 drop that makes my creatures with counters unblocked, but I usually win with god knows how many tokens.
While almost constituting a necro thread revival, I think it's worthwhile to bring up Merfolk again based on the newly spoiled Zegana, Utopian Speaker.
What I really like about her is that she naturally cantrips as a 4/4 creature after you've played Jadelight Ranger the turn before. If we take the current Golgari strategy of using the Explore mechanic + Wildgrowth Walker, I think that you can easily outpace the Golgari decks in card advantage. She even defeats Carnage Tyrant at the same spot on the curve by Adapting into being an 8/8, which is very powerful to break open the Golgari matchup.
A rough decklist that I'll be starting with will look something like this:
While almost constituting a necro thread revival, I think it's worthwhile to bring up Merfolk again based on the newly spoiled Zegana, Utopian Speaker.
What I really like about her is that she naturally cantrips as a 4/4 creature after you've played Jadelight Ranger the turn before. If we take the current Golgari strategy of using the Explore mechanic + Wildgrowth Walker, I think that you can easily outpace the Golgari decks in card advantage. She even defeats Carnage Tyrant at the same spot on the curve by Adapting into being an 8/8, which is very powerful to break open the Golgari matchup.
A rough decklist that I'll be starting with will look something like this:
I disagree, imo, golgari's whole gameplan is grinding it out.
zegana is more akin to ghalta than carnyT
Tocatli, Honor Guard and control/discard decks probably would cause this deck trouble. I'm assuming the plan is to bring those answers in from the board.
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Correct. The main gameplan is to flood the board G1 with a bunch of Merfolk and hopefully out-creature the opponent with fatter creatures that have Card Advantage built into them. Then, once the field is clogged up, send a creature through the air via HAdana's Climb and hopefully kill them quickly. Kumena should help any of the merfolk we cast have at least 1 +1/+1 counter and sending the new Zegana through the air after she's Adapted should probably be lethal as well.
The Honor Guard would certainly be annoying but not the end of the world simply because of the Lord effects in Kumena and Mistbind-er. Granted, this all theoretical so I have no real evidence whether or not this strategy is even effective.
I wonder with the new guy Benthic Biomancer if we want to go with a lower to the ground +1/+1 counters theme with Hadana's Climb and Zegana, Utopian Speaker as payoffs. A low land count could be possible with all the card draw/filter and some cheap reactive spells (Dive Down, Spell Pierce) happen to be really good against control and midrange and fit perfectly with the strategy of going tall with Hadana's Climb and protecting the Queen. Backup plan to go wide or dominate the board with Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca. Proposed deck list:
So I played fish for a bit and the deck struggles greatly with higher toughness creatures. river sneak is great repository for counters from deep root elite if you can protect it. In your current deck list I feel like you're just cold to any x/3+ that drops on the board because you can't profitably swing past it. Incongruity doesn't solve that issue unfortunately. What it does do though is snipe off the annoying fatties you can't grow past, like lyra or Ghalta.
I eventually added black to the mana base specifically for removal and it never felt great. It felt better, but not great. vraska, golgari queen is amazing if you can stick her. Especially with deeproot waters.
I think not having 2 deep root waters in the main is incorrect with 4 deep root elites. The cards just play so well together if you can stick them. If I get to untap turn 4 with both in play I'm dropping 8+ power on board every time. The two together are especially potent with river sneak. I've had games were I'm getting in for 7+ unblockable for two turns in a row while holding counter magic up for my opponent trying to get back in the game.
The deck could benefit greatly from another card advantage source, but not sure what. I tend to dump 2-3 cards a turn after turn 4 and a sweeper is lights out.
I think goblin chainwhirler is still going to be poking around standard because of orzhov, selesnya, vampires, goblins, merfolk, and more are just so weak to the card. Phoenix is great against control, etc. it could cause large headaches for this deck. Even if you outgrow the ETB, you will never swing past 2 of them with anything but kumena making itself unblockable. The 1BB horse that gives -1/-1 out of golgari is also an issue.
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Right, because Negate can allow you to swarm attack. Or get a free set of chump-blocks. You do read the whole thing, don't you?
Actually, I'm beginning to doubt that particularly.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Creatures: 30
3 Kumena’s Speaker
3 Jade Bearer
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Deeproot Elite
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Merfolk Misbinder
4 Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Hinterland Harbor
5 Island
7 Forrest
Enchantments: 5
2 Hadana’s Climb
3 Deeproot Waters
2 Blossoming Defense
3 River Herald’s Boon
3 negate
3 of the green merfolk that give 1 merfolk hexproof when put in play with flash
2 Vivien Reid from set
2 dive down/ spell pierce
2 kopala
3 unknown/ waiting for Ravnica
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20006&d=329764&f=ST
Rather than sleep, I'd play Tempest Caller. Same cost, similar effect, and it's another Merfolk. Allows for a lethal swing on a creature heavy board. I do like Swift Warden as well, I need to find a spot for him in my deck.
Edit: I stand corrected.
-Stay Frosty
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
I misread that. I stand corrected. It's a sorcery :\
Sleep
Now, you can still play them different ways. Either you can bring in Tempest Caller and then swarm the OP. Or you can use Sleep And either stall the game or get 2 chances to swing for big damage. If I'm right because they don't untap on OP's turn.
-Stay Frosty
I know, try to keep the cheers down to a dull roar.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
I was referring to the reprinted Goblin Electromancer. Dragonauts is a card with a condition in order to bring it in line with a grizzly bear...not even close to worthwhile; but Murmuring Mystic, Omnispell Adept, Passwall Adept, Vedalken Mesmerist, League Guildmage, Ral's Staticaster, and Electrostatic Field are all potentially usable in a UR Wizards build, not to mention some of the new burn spells.
I'll be updating my Wizards build as soon as the site will allow me to select GRN cards as Standard-legal (when the set is released).
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Merfolk wasn't a represented deck at all before rotation and will only get better as many of the established decks don't survive rotation while Merfolk barely lose anything at all despite not getting much of anything.
Uh...Botanical Sanctum for Woodland Stream? No worries, that sound you heard was your game slowing down... Yeah, that'll help. Burn, Goblins, Wizards, Elves all got upgrades, and UW Control and Humans are still the elephants in the room as they were before. No problem at all.
And Merfolk has been 'represented' since Revised.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Regarding the other tribes (there is no "Humans" deck in Standard) you've mentioned they weren't even competitive options besides "Wizards" which was a fringe deck and loses its best 1-drop in Soul-Scar Mage.
"Revised" has nothing to do with the current Standard format which I've been referring to by stating that Merfolk wasn't a represented deck on the competitive level.
No need for sarcasm if you can't get your facts straight.
Check out MTG Top8 or MTGOstats for PTQ's and GP's. Merfolk isn't huge, but it's nearly always there. So spare me the talk about representation. I might also add that of the five decks I have posted here and 14 on TappedOut, by far the ones that have the most looks are my Standard Merfolk decks...like by a factor of four on Tapped Out and two to four here. And the mono-U deck is less than a month old, already surpassing my aggro build and climbing the ladder toward the swarm deck, both of which are four months old.
I don't impute a lot of credibility to someone who doesn't list a single merfolk deck in his sig, or even a standard deck. I don't see much money where your mouth is (actually, I don't see any). Unclaimed Territory is fine if you're running all creatures, which is not a recipe for success unless you like mana screw. (Btw, my post-rotation UG decks both run it as a 2-of *with* Woodland Stream and Hinterland Harbor, not that it matters. I won't be playing them, instead focusing on my mono-U and Wizards builds until at least the next release. And with 17 of 75 cards from my Wizards rotating out, it's going to need a complete rework.) But if you seriously think that running basics over Woodland Stream is going to be workable you really need to actually play Merfolk before you comment on it. When was the last time you designed a merfolk deck? How about wizards?
As for Wizards, it gets a series of upgrades, particularly Goblin Electromancer, Electrostatic Field, and a couple of new burn spells. Soul-Scar Mage will not be missed. I wonder how much Ken Yukuhiro missed it running his Top 8 mono-U Wizards deck at the Japan Nationals? (Top 4, actually; he lost in the semis.)
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
4 Kumena’s Speaker
3 Jade Bearer
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Merfolk Trickster
4 Deeproot Elite
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Merfolk Misbinder
3 Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
Lands: 20
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Island
6 Forrest
2 Breeding Pool / Memorial to Unity
Enchantments: 6
2 Hadana’s Climb
4 Deeproot Waters
4 River Herald’s Boon
3 Field of Ruin
3 Negate
3 Swift Warden
3 Spell Pierce
2 Kopala, Warden of Waves
1 Mistcaller
What I really like about her is that she naturally cantrips as a 4/4 creature after you've played Jadelight Ranger the turn before. If we take the current Golgari strategy of using the Explore mechanic + Wildgrowth Walker, I think that you can easily outpace the Golgari decks in card advantage. She even defeats Carnage Tyrant at the same spot on the curve by Adapting into being an 8/8, which is very powerful to break open the Golgari matchup.
A rough decklist that I'll be starting with will look something like this:
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Wildgrowth Walker
4x Merfolk Branchwalker
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merfolk Mistbinder
4x Jadelight Ranger
3x Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca
4x Zegana, Utopian Speaker
3x Hadana's Climb
3x Vivien Reid
Lands (23)
4x Breeding Pool
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Unclaimed Territory
2x Simic Guildgate
3x Islands
2x Forest
2x Field of Ruin
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I disagree, imo, golgari's whole gameplan is grinding it out.
zegana is more akin to ghalta than carnyT
Tocatli, Honor Guard and control/discard decks probably would cause this deck trouble. I'm assuming the plan is to bring those answers in from the board.
-Stay Frosty
The Honor Guard would certainly be annoying but not the end of the world simply because of the Lord effects in Kumena and Mistbind-er. Granted, this all theoretical so I have no real evidence whether or not this strategy is even effective.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
3 Jade Bearer
3 Benthic Biomancer
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Mistbinder
3 Merfolk Trickster
3 Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca
3 Zegana, Utopian Speaker
3 Dive Down
3 Hadana's Climb
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Island
4 Forest
2 Swift Warden
1 Kopala, Warden of Waves
2 Watertrap Weaver
1 Tempest Caller
2 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
2 Sleep
1 Vivien Reid
I'm going to be testing this on Arena as soon as I pick up the rares from the new set. Any other ideas?
Question do we really like Zegana over Herald of Secret Streams or over Tempest Caller?
4 Kumena's Speaker
4 Benthic Biomancer
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Merfolk Mistbinder
4 Deeproot Elite
4 Merfolk Trickster
3 Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca
3 Zegana, Utopian Speaker
3 Hadana's Climb
4 Incubation//Incogruity
20 Lands
4 Breeding Pool
4 Forest
4 Island
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Spell Pierce
3 Syncopate
3 Naturalize
3 Shapers' Sanctuary
3 Silent Gravestone
So I played fish for a bit and the deck struggles greatly with higher toughness creatures. river sneak is great repository for counters from deep root elite if you can protect it. In your current deck list I feel like you're just cold to any x/3+ that drops on the board because you can't profitably swing past it. Incongruity doesn't solve that issue unfortunately. What it does do though is snipe off the annoying fatties you can't grow past, like lyra or Ghalta.
I eventually added black to the mana base specifically for removal and it never felt great. It felt better, but not great. vraska, golgari queen is amazing if you can stick her. Especially with deeproot waters.
I think not having 2 deep root waters in the main is incorrect with 4 deep root elites. The cards just play so well together if you can stick them. If I get to untap turn 4 with both in play I'm dropping 8+ power on board every time. The two together are especially potent with river sneak. I've had games were I'm getting in for 7+ unblockable for two turns in a row while holding counter magic up for my opponent trying to get back in the game.
The deck could benefit greatly from another card advantage source, but not sure what. I tend to dump 2-3 cards a turn after turn 4 and a sweeper is lights out.
I think goblin chainwhirler is still going to be poking around standard because of orzhov, selesnya, vampires, goblins, merfolk, and more are just so weak to the card. Phoenix is great against control, etc. it could cause large headaches for this deck. Even if you outgrow the ETB, you will never swing past 2 of them with anything but kumena making itself unblockable. The 1BB horse that gives -1/-1 out of golgari is also an issue.