Over the course of a tournament, you will usually play more games WITH a sideboard than without one. Since a match is determined by the first person to win two games, when both players aren't playing exceptionally long games, every game must go to at least two games, and often a third game. Your second games and third games are played with a sideboard.
Your sideboard isn't simply 15 extra cards that you have in your collection, or cards that you wanted to play in your maindeck 60, but couldn't find room. It's there so that after you play your first game, you can alter your deck slightly to improve your matchup for game two. This usually means that you will include cards that are very narrow - good against some decks, poor against others (if they were good against everything, they probably should be in your main deck).
After you actually pick cards, you need to decide ahead of time (not during a match when you only have a few moments to make changes to your deck) what will go in and what will go out. Usually, you only want to bring in a few cards and take out a few cards; doing more than that dilutes your deck and you may find too many hands filled with answers without a way to win as intended.
2. How to Build a Deck on a Budget
There are generally two methods to creating a deck on a budget: you can take a top-down or bottom-up design process. In the former, you are taking a pre-existing deck that has done well, but includes many expensive cards, and try to find budget substitutes. In the latter, you take budget cards and combine them together to form a cohesive deck.
Top-down deck design:
In a top-down design, we take a pre-existing (non-budget deck) and try to make it fit our needs by removing and replacing more expensive cards with cheaper versions. The most important thing to keep in mind is that there may not always be a good substitute, so often you aren't looking to find the next closest copy to a card, but rather the next best card for the deck that goes well with the rest of the cards. If you can't afford a planeswalker that produces tokens, playing a sorcery that puts two 1/1's into play probably isn't a good replacement; you're better off playing a midrange creature that will keep pressure on your opponent and deal more damage than a few token creatures.
Bottom-up deck design:
In a bottom-up design, we try to form a cohesive deck by gathering a bunch of affordable cards that work well together, until we have a good list of sixty cards. You make sure you have a good number of creatures and spells (particularly removal), and then add in some land to fill out the deck, paying special attention to the costs of all the cards so that your land will do their best to ensure you can play everything.
Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. Arrest always shuts down a creature. Bonds of Faith usually shuts down a creature and costs one less, but comes at a price - if your opponent has a creature with an activated ability (like Skirsdag High Priest) that he wouldn't be attacking with most of the time, Bonds of Faith won't stop that and if the creature is a human (again, like SHP), Bonds of Faith just makes it better.
Champion of the Parish, Huntmaster of the Fells, Borderland Ranger, Snapcaster Mage, and other humans could all possibly see play in Standard, and I'd like a card that is as reliable as can be, if the difference in cost is negligible. Revoke Existence was one cheaper than Oblivion Ring, but Oblivion Ring could exile creatures and planeswalkers, so the one mana difference means a much less powerful spell.
Bonds of Faith is cheaper and allows for a lower curve, but the chance that it won't help you in a clutch situation is just too high that I'd rather just have Arrest (and Oblivion Ring) ready to handle threats, without worrying about what its creature type is.
I made a budget Bant Control deck the other day. The only really expensive cards are Thragtusk and Armada Wurm, but given that the rest is so cheap, I don't think that should matter too much. As is, this deck would put you down about 100 dollars. Some of the duals can be changed to Guildgates and you could maybe find cheaper finishers.
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It's flavor-tastic
Sig made by Tiiratore. PM him if you want one.
Disappointing avatar made by Mirror Entity at Disappointing Signets Inc.
My Decks:
Modern:
(online)Enduring Ideal
(online)BUG
(paper)Mono White Control
Standard:
(paper) Whatever I can throw together
(online) UWR Control
I made up a decklist that you may be interested in using?
I made a budget Bant Control deck the other day. The only really expensive cards are Thragtusk and Armada Wurm, but given that the rest is so cheap, I don't think that should matter too much. As is, this deck would put you down about 100 dollars. Some of the duals can be changed to Guildgates and you could maybe find cheaper finishers.
There was some discussion about this awhile back, but I'm adhering to the budget rule of "no card costs more than $X" rather than the whole deck costing more than $Y. I'd really like to add a control deck in the future, but I'll hold off on Bant for now.
Would Guttersnipe be a good addition to your no-rara BV deck?
Possibly, but I think one of the virtues of the current build is that creature removal is dead against the deck.
In your opinion, how competitive is that RDW deck?
After Zombies, RDW is one of the most talked about decks for Standard when RTR is legal. The density of early threats will punish lots of people who are trying to be too cute in the format and run slower, multi-color control decks with things like Tamiyo or Nicol Bolas, when brutally efficient one and two drops that is also backed up with a fair amount of burn makes RDW a contender, at least for awhile. The format may settle and make RDW less potent, but for now, it's a good call, I think. A similar things happened last year and RDW was a top deck at SCG open events for a few weeks. In fact, the addition of shocklands may make things easier for RDW for awhile, particularly if there are people trying to run things like UBR control with 8 shocklands as fixers. If they pay the life, you get a free shock and get them closer to 0. If they play it tapped, you still hope to rush in there faster than they can.
Suggestions I'd make are:
This is all very helpful. I've played against Humans almost every week, but I haven't put too much legwork into fine tuning the lists, and little things like Rancor are easy for me to neglect. I'll be making some changes soon based on your recommendations.
@hieste: This isn't that different from the non-rare version, but adding in High Priest, which I really like and Pack Rats, which I like a little less. I'll strongly consider making a non-chase rare version of tokens.
After Zombies, RDW is one of the most talked about decks for Standard when RTR is legal. The density of early threats will punish lots of people who are trying to be too cute in the format and run slower, multi-color control decks with things like Tamiyo or Nicol Bolas, when brutally efficient one and two drops that is also backed up with a fair amount of burn makes RDW a contender, at least for awhile. The format may settle and make RDW less potent, but for now, it's a good call, I think. A similar things happened last year and RDW was a top deck at SCG open events for a few weeks. In fact, the addition of shocklands may make things easier for RDW for awhile, particularly if there are people trying to run things like UBR control with 8 shocklands as fixers. If they pay the life, you get a free shock and get them closer to 0. If they play it tapped, you still hope to rush in there faster than they can.
This is all very helpful. I've played against Humans almost every week, but I haven't put too much legwork into fine tuning the lists, and little things like Rancor are easy for me to neglect. I'll be making some changes soon based on your recommendations.
@hieste: This isn't that different from the non-rare version, but adding in High Priest, which I really like and Pack Rats, which I like a little less. I'll strongly consider making a non-chase rare version of tokens.
Yeah I guess, it can be a surprise quantity for the first few weeks while people are figuring out the format. Hopefully it won't fade away like last time.
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Mabbz on MTGO | Demgrinds on Twitch & Twitter | Helpdesk
Yakusoku, I decided to build your Burning Vengeance deck to try it out since I had all the cards, and it destroyed a GBR aggro Corpsejack deck and had the guy crying cheese after the second game. I like it!
Yakusoku, I decided to build your Burning Vengeance deck to try it out since I had all the cards, and it destroyed a GBR aggro Corpsejack deck and had the guy crying cheese after the second game. I like it!
Hi.
I'm curious about this Burning Vengeance deck, but couldn't find the list on this thread.
Whats about the gw humans? How strong would you see it?
Can it do nearly as much pressure as the rdw or are the burn spells missing too hard?
The lists are updated and all t2 legal right?
It has a better early game with stronger creatures, but falls off harder, due to the lack of inevitability that burn can give red decks. The latest SCG Open (Cincinatti) showed that U/W control is a real thing, with Terminus and Supreme Verdict really hurting aggro decks with no resilience and RGB midrange decks stand to really put the heart on some aggro decks with cards like Huntmaster of the Fells and Thragtusk stabilizing the board. The best thing that G/W has going for it is Gavony Township, which can give you an overwhelming army, given enough activations.
All of the lists have been updated to only include Standard cards with RTR being legal.
Now that we've had one significant Standard tourney, I'll evaluate the guide in that light and make some changes soon.
My list. Quite solid. Because it doesn't have Jace nor Snap from the beginning I brew it. Other than that, you can drop anything beside Terminus and Supreme Verdict even if it's expensive, it's quite the core card. Otherwise, you can try bounce instead of sweep. But I can't guarantee the performance.
And also, idk if it fit your budget since you didn't mention it. But, in case 4 Hallowed Fountain is too expensive, Try Azorius Guildgate instead.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
The Esper Tokens list is 59 fyi. Good work though probably playing with that soon ^^;;
Thanks for noticing. I added up the number of lands incorrectly. I added a 24th land and the list should be 60 cards now.
I've been mulling over control for quite awhile now. I'm still not sure what the best thing to do on a budget is, but I'll try to get some thoughts out there soon.
Edit to add:
I've added in a control decklist with a lengthy explanation for some of my choices. If you have any concerns, please let me know. I feel it's the best compromise I can make right now between actually having a chance to win and not requiring a full day's pay to buy a few pieces of cardboard.
A rework of the Converting to Budget section is in the works, with States and a few SCG events in the books. I can now draw from some decks that have been doing well and explain what you can and cannot do to make these lists more palatable if rares soaring into double digit prices are not your thing.
Hey I was testing the RDW deck from the nonchase rare list and it is extremly fun. I was just having some trouble making the side board. Any help would be great.
1. How to Sideboard
Over the course of a tournament, you will usually play more games WITH a sideboard than without one. Since a match is determined by the first person to win two games, when both players aren't playing exceptionally long games, every game must go to at least two games, and often a third game. Your second games and third games are played with a sideboard.
Your sideboard isn't simply 15 extra cards that you have in your collection, or cards that you wanted to play in your maindeck 60, but couldn't find room. It's there so that after you play your first game, you can alter your deck slightly to improve your matchup for game two. This usually means that you will include cards that are very narrow - good against some decks, poor against others (if they were good against everything, they probably should be in your main deck).
After you actually pick cards, you need to decide ahead of time (not during a match when you only have a few moments to make changes to your deck) what will go in and what will go out. Usually, you only want to bring in a few cards and take out a few cards; doing more than that dilutes your deck and you may find too many hands filled with answers without a way to win as intended.
2. How to Build a Deck on a Budget
There are generally two methods to creating a deck on a budget: you can take a top-down or bottom-up design process. In the former, you are taking a pre-existing deck that has done well, but includes many expensive cards, and try to find budget substitutes. In the latter, you take budget cards and combine them together to form a cohesive deck.
Top-down deck design:
In a top-down design, we take a pre-existing (non-budget deck) and try to make it fit our needs by removing and replacing more expensive cards with cheaper versions. The most important thing to keep in mind is that there may not always be a good substitute, so often you aren't looking to find the next closest copy to a card, but rather the next best card for the deck that goes well with the rest of the cards. If you can't afford a planeswalker that produces tokens, playing a sorcery that puts two 1/1's into play probably isn't a good replacement; you're better off playing a midrange creature that will keep pressure on your opponent and deal more damage than a few token creatures.
Bottom-up deck design:
In a bottom-up design, we try to form a cohesive deck by gathering a bunch of affordable cards that work well together, until we have a good list of sixty cards. You make sure you have a good number of creatures and spells (particularly removal), and then add in some land to fill out the deck, paying special attention to the costs of all the cards so that your land will do their best to ensure you can play everything.
3. Decks Under $20
4 Anointer of Champions
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Steadfast Cathar
4 Consul's Lieutenant
4 Stasis Snare
4 Always Watching
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Goblin Glory Chaser
4 Lightning Berserker
4 Subterranean Scout
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Galvanic Bombardment
4. Decks Under $50
4 Cliffhaven Vampire
4 Drana's Emissary
4 Kalastria Healer
4 Ondu War Cleric
4 Vampire Envoy
2 Munda's Vanguard
2 Lantern Scout
4 Ultimate Price
8 Plains
8 Swamp
4 Ally Encampment
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Anointer of Champions
4 Dragon Hunter
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Always Watching
3 Gryff's Boon
20 Plains
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
3 Lightning Berserker
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Hanweir Garrison
3 Dragon Fodder
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Incendiary Flow
2 Hanweir Battlements
5. Decks Under $100
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thopter Engineer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Vile Aggregate
3 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Roast
4 Foundry of the Consuls
4 Ruins of Oran-Rief
2 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Battlefield Forge
12 Mountain
4 Silkwrap
4 Stasis Snare
3 Ojutai's Command
4 Negate
4 Immolating Glare
4 Clash of Wills
4 Scatter to the Winds
4 Planar Outburst
4 Prairie Stream
9 Plains
9 Island
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Gnarlroot Trapper
4 Shaman of the Pack
4 Sylvan Advocate
3 Sylvan Messenger
3 Tajuru Warcaller
3 Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen
8 Forest
8 Swamp
4 Hissing Quagmire
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Dragon Hunter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Consul's Lieutenant
4 Lantern Scout
4 Silkwrap
4 Always Watching
4 Elder Deep-Fiend
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Nebelgast Herald
4 Rattlechains
4 Reflector Mage
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
3 Ojutai's Command
7 Island
2 Meandering River
7 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
3 Distended Mindbender
4 Haunted Dead
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Relentless Dead
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Shambling Ghoul
3 Grasp of Darkness
3 Negate
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
12 Swamp
4 Island
4 Stormchaser mage
4 Thermo-Alchemist
4 Fevered Visions
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Fiery Temper
2 Lightning Axe
4 Collective Defiance
4 Incendiary Flow
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef
8 Mountain
4 Island
2 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2 Dragonlord Atarka
3 World Breaker
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Greenwarden of Murasa
2 Ulvenwald Hydra
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Grapple with the Past
4 Vessel of Nascency
2 Gather the Pack
3 Fiery Impulse
2 Cinder Glade
2 Game Trail
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
1 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Drownyard Temple
10 Forest
3 Mountain
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
RRRR mono red aggro
GWGW selesnya aggro
Not being able to use activated abilities is a pretty big deal. At least to me it is.
Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. Arrest always shuts down a creature. Bonds of Faith usually shuts down a creature and costs one less, but comes at a price - if your opponent has a creature with an activated ability (like Skirsdag High Priest) that he wouldn't be attacking with most of the time, Bonds of Faith won't stop that and if the creature is a human (again, like SHP), Bonds of Faith just makes it better.
Champion of the Parish, Huntmaster of the Fells, Borderland Ranger, Snapcaster Mage, and other humans could all possibly see play in Standard, and I'd like a card that is as reliable as can be, if the difference in cost is negligible. Revoke Existence was one cheaper than Oblivion Ring, but Oblivion Ring could exile creatures and planeswalkers, so the one mana difference means a much less powerful spell.
Bonds of Faith is cheaper and allows for a lower curve, but the chance that it won't help you in a clutch situation is just too high that I'd rather just have Arrest (and Oblivion Ring) ready to handle threats, without worrying about what its creature type is.
2x Acidic Slime
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Thragtusk
3x Armada Wurm
Other Stuff:
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Syncopate
3x Terminus
3x Supreme Verdict
4x Azorius Charm
4x Think Twice
4x Evolving Wilds
3x Selesnya Guildgate
3x Azorius Guildgate
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Forest
3x Island
3x Plains
I made a budget Bant Control deck the other day. The only really expensive cards are Thragtusk and Armada Wurm, but given that the rest is so cheap, I don't think that should matter too much. As is, this deck would put you down about 100 dollars. Some of the duals can be changed to Guildgates and you could maybe find cheaper finishers.
Modern:
(online)Enduring Ideal
(online)BUG
(paper)Mono White Control
Standard:
(paper) Whatever I can throw together
(online) UWR Control
Legacy:
(paper)The Gate
(paper)Dream Halls
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
There was some discussion about this awhile back, but I'm adhering to the budget rule of "no card costs more than $X" rather than the whole deck costing more than $Y. I'd really like to add a control deck in the future, but I'll hold off on Bant for now.
Possibly, but I think one of the virtues of the current build is that creature removal is dead against the deck.
Actually for your humans deck IMO Descendant's Path is pretty sweet.
Mabbz on MTGO | Demgrinds on Twitch & Twitter | Helpdesk
After Zombies, RDW is one of the most talked about decks for Standard when RTR is legal. The density of early threats will punish lots of people who are trying to be too cute in the format and run slower, multi-color control decks with things like Tamiyo or Nicol Bolas, when brutally efficient one and two drops that is also backed up with a fair amount of burn makes RDW a contender, at least for awhile. The format may settle and make RDW less potent, but for now, it's a good call, I think. A similar things happened last year and RDW was a top deck at SCG open events for a few weeks. In fact, the addition of shocklands may make things easier for RDW for awhile, particularly if there are people trying to run things like UBR control with 8 shocklands as fixers. If they pay the life, you get a free shock and get them closer to 0. If they play it tapped, you still hope to rush in there faster than they can.
This is all very helpful. I've played against Humans almost every week, but I haven't put too much legwork into fine tuning the lists, and little things like Rancor are easy for me to neglect. I'll be making some changes soon based on your recommendations.
@hieste: This isn't that different from the non-rare version, but adding in High Priest, which I really like and Pack Rats, which I like a little less. I'll strongly consider making a non-chase rare version of tokens.
Yeah I guess, it can be a surprise quantity for the first few weeks while people are figuring out the format. Hopefully it won't fade away like last time.
Mabbz on MTGO | Demgrinds on Twitch & Twitter | Helpdesk
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
Hi.
I'm curious about this Burning Vengeance deck, but couldn't find the list on this thread.
Can you please post it here?
Thanks a lot,
Daniel Rosenthal.
It's under the no rares section. Would copy for you but I'm on my phone.
It has a better early game with stronger creatures, but falls off harder, due to the lack of inevitability that burn can give red decks. The latest SCG Open (Cincinatti) showed that U/W control is a real thing, with Terminus and Supreme Verdict really hurting aggro decks with no resilience and RGB midrange decks stand to really put the heart on some aggro decks with cards like Huntmaster of the Fells and Thragtusk stabilizing the board. The best thing that G/W has going for it is Gavony Township, which can give you an overwhelming army, given enough activations.
All of the lists have been updated to only include Standard cards with RTR being legal.
Now that we've had one significant Standard tourney, I'll evaluate the guide in that light and make some changes soon.
RRRR mono red aggro
GWGW selesnya aggro
UW and UWR get hard because even the way they win are expensive cards.
You might be able to do a list Grixis (UBR) that can control and win under 100. I don't know your budget, but you could try.
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Island
4 Izzet Guildgate
2 Mountain
4 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Swamp
1 Devil's Play
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Syncopate
4 Augur of Bolas
2 Cyclonic Rift
4 Desperate Ravings
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Sever the Bloodline
1 Curse of Death's Hold
3 Gilded Lotus
1 Increasing Ambition
3 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
RRRR mono red aggro
GWGW selesnya aggro
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
8 Plains
2 Haunted Fengraf
2 Ghost Quarter
Draw
4 Think Twice
2 Sphinx's Revelation
Stall
4 Feeling of Dread
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Azorius Charm
2 Detention Sphere
2 Oblivion Ring
Sweep
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
Wincon
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Drogskol Reaver
Counter
2 Dissipate
2 Syncopate
2 Curse of Exhaustion
2 Angel of Glory's Rise
3 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Clone
2 Dramatic Rescue
1 Nevermore
1 Angel's Mercy
1 Purify the Grave
My list. Quite solid. Because it doesn't have Jace nor Snap from the beginning I brew it. Other than that, you can drop anything beside Terminus and Supreme Verdict even if it's expensive, it's quite the core card. Otherwise, you can try bounce instead of sweep. But I can't guarantee the performance.
And also, idk if it fit your budget since you didn't mention it. But, in case 4 Hallowed Fountain is too expensive, Try Azorius Guildgate instead.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Thanks for noticing. I added up the number of lands incorrectly. I added a 24th land and the list should be 60 cards now.
I've been mulling over control for quite awhile now. I'm still not sure what the best thing to do on a budget is, but I'll try to get some thoughts out there soon.
Edit to add:
I've added in a control decklist with a lengthy explanation for some of my choices. If you have any concerns, please let me know. I feel it's the best compromise I can make right now between actually having a chance to win and not requiring a full day's pay to buy a few pieces of cardboard.
A rework of the Converting to Budget section is in the works, with States and a few SCG events in the books. I can now draw from some decks that have been doing well and explain what you can and cannot do to make these lists more palatable if rares soaring into double digit prices are not your thing.
This is a good deck, but not at all a budget one.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9171579#post9171579