Or is Standard COMPLETELY ****ED. R&D needs to be fired, Mark Rosewater needs to be disgraced and fired from his position. Angels are seriously degenerate, control is goofy, what the Hell happened to the game in the last 6 years?
I would have to agree; standard is pretty horrible and has been for a long time now. White weenie is probably the worst offender of the new generation. In years past you often had a few bombs in the format (think before rosewater took over) and now we are too a point where everything is undercosted, where nearly every card is a 2 for 1 (but not removal), where a single card can win you the game out of nowhere, and games are expected to last about 5-7 minutes.
White weenie hits on all curves. 2/1 for 1 mana that make more creatues, cards that make your opponents stuff cost more which makes it hard to cast spells, removal on efficient creatures, evasion, creatures that are cheap and dont die to mass removal (lands), creatures that make other creatures. The deck is so cohesive and so cheap and there are so many cards in standard that have like effects right now that if there is a single banning or 2 that the deck probably wont be able to be fixed through due to like abilities on other cards.
A good way to explain it is decks use to be classified in different way... for example tempo or inevitability; however white winnie is kind of both as numerous cards have the ability to constantly gain value on their own. same with green aggro where a 2 mana 3/3 also draws cards or a 4/4 trample for 3 that comes back to ramp you AND become a 4/4 again. aggro decks no long say "i have to win by turn 6" they now just say "can you stop my relentless assault"
All you have to do is look at how many bannings we've had over the last 4 years to see how the game has changed. We had about 20 total cards banned, 75% of those being created enxclusively by mark rosewater, banned before 2017. Now since 2017 we've had 24 bans. I doubt we'll see any bans soon though, we also didn't get any bans when Black Devotion was a deck even though it was over 50% of the field; that doesn't make it right and that doesn't make the format or the direction good either.
I would have to agree; standard is pretty horrible and has been for a long time now. White weenie is probably the worst offender of the new generation. In years past you often had a few bombs in the format (think before rosewater took over) and now we are too a point where everything is undercosted, where nearly every card is a 2 for 1 (but not removal), where a single card can win you the game out of nowhere, and games are expected to last about 5-7 minutes.
White weenie hits on all curves. 2/1 for 1 mana that make more creatues, cards that make your opponents stuff cost more which makes it hard to cast spells, removal on efficient creatures, evasion, creatures that are cheap and dont die to mass removal (lands), creatures that make other creatures. The deck is so cohesive and so cheap and there are so many cards in standard that have like effects right now that if there is a single banning or 2 that the deck probably wont be able to be fixed through due to like abilities on other cards.
A good way to explain it is decks use to be classified in different way... for example tempo or inevitability; however white winnie is kind of both as numerous cards have the ability to constantly gain value on their own. same with green aggro where a 2 mana 3/3 also draws cards or a 4/4 trample for 3 that comes back to ramp you AND become a 4/4 again. aggro decks no long say "i have to win by turn 6" they now just say "can you stop my relentless assault"
All you have to do is look at how many bannings we've had over the last 4 years to see how the game has changed. We had about 20 total cards banned, 75% of those being created enxclusively by mark rosewater, banned before 2017. Now since 2017 we've had 24 bans. I doubt we'll see any bans soon though, we also didn't get any bans when Black Devotion was a deck even though it was over 50% of the field; that doesn't make it right and that doesn't make the format or the direction good either.
I think there's two different arguments here. The first is with regard to balance. Standard is pretty balanced right now between the aggro decks, combo/control decks, and midrangey strategies like mono-black/Orzhov. There's a decent number of decks to choose from and they all have relatively decent chances of winning depending on card-selection and sideboard tech. I actually think Standard is in a good place and generally pretty fun to play right now.
Argument 2 is "do we like the current school of thought re: design?" I'm not thrilled with the power level of a lot of the cards. Every creature doesn't need to replace itself or generate insane value or have built-in recursion. That being said, they have been at least trying to tone the power down which I applaud. Also, they have been upping the power level of answers a bit in the last couple of sets, which is a welcome change from "no 4 mana wraths, no 2 cmc kill spells."
The problem is now there are newer players used to the current paradigm who throw fits because of how "bad" some of the new cards are.
[quote from="john_pirate »" url="/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/823764-is-it-me?comment=4"]
I think there's two different arguments here. The first is with regard to balance. Standard is pretty balanced right now between the aggro decks, combo/control decks, and midrangey strategies like mono-black/Orzhov. There's a decent number of decks to choose from and they all have relatively decent chances of winning depending on card-selection and sideboard tech. I actually think Standard is in a good place and generally pretty fun to play right now.
Argument 2 is "do we like the current school of thought re: design?" I'm not thrilled with the power level of a lot of the cards. Every creature doesn't need to replace itself or generate insane value or have built-in recursion. That being said, they have been at least trying to tone the power down which I applaud. Also, they have been upping the power level of answers a bit in the last couple of sets, which is a welcome change from "no 4 mana wraths, no 2 cmc kill spells."
The problem is now there are newer players used to the current paradigm who throw fits because of how "bad" some of the new cards are.
I would disagree with your first statement of the format being balanced. Take the recent Red Bull tournament (707 players) where the top 8 was 5 izzet control decks and 2 white weenie decks. The Japan Championship Series (128 payers) top 4 izzet control +2 white weenie in top 8. Red Bull (979 players) 3 izzet control 3 white weenie.
Yeah, you can go to your local store with green aggro and win 3 rounds, or with you black control, or zombies, or whatever. The actual real torunament stats prove how unbalanced the format is.
Yeah, but even that last one is a little misleading. There were 3 and 3 like you said, but also Esper Control and Mono-Black Zombies, and Mono-Green Aggro was 9th, with two Jund Midrange decks coming in 13th and 16th. The most recent Arena open was admittedly a ton of Izzet, but also Mono-Black Zombies and Mono-Green Aggro.
Also, I'd have to see a full analysis to see what those results really mean. There's a lot of confirmation bias in MtG, so if everyone thinks the best deck is Izzet or Mono-White, those strategies will be overrepresented at the top tables even if the archetypes only performed okay on average.
That said, I won't say the format isn't a little Izzet/Mono-White heavy. But that's sort of the nature of Standard in my experience anyway--there's 2 or 3 Tier 1 decks and then (in a good format) a bunch of other decks that can do well in the hands of an experienced pilot or when the metagame shifts favorably.
I just started playing again like two days ago after 5+ years. I keep running into Urabrask's Forge and I don't understand how you're supposed to stop that. I need to pack my deck with artifact removal. It also seems like Planeswalkers are way stronger now. Like as soon as one is cast the game is over.
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Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
White weenie hits on all curves. 2/1 for 1 mana that make more creatues, cards that make your opponents stuff cost more which makes it hard to cast spells, removal on efficient creatures, evasion, creatures that are cheap and dont die to mass removal (lands), creatures that make other creatures. The deck is so cohesive and so cheap and there are so many cards in standard that have like effects right now that if there is a single banning or 2 that the deck probably wont be able to be fixed through due to like abilities on other cards.
A good way to explain it is decks use to be classified in different way... for example tempo or inevitability; however white winnie is kind of both as numerous cards have the ability to constantly gain value on their own. same with green aggro where a 2 mana 3/3 also draws cards or a 4/4 trample for 3 that comes back to ramp you AND become a 4/4 again. aggro decks no long say "i have to win by turn 6" they now just say "can you stop my relentless assault"
All you have to do is look at how many bannings we've had over the last 4 years to see how the game has changed. We had about 20 total cards banned, 75% of those being created enxclusively by mark rosewater, banned before 2017. Now since 2017 we've had 24 bans. I doubt we'll see any bans soon though, we also didn't get any bans when Black Devotion was a deck even though it was over 50% of the field; that doesn't make it right and that doesn't make the format or the direction good either.
I think there's two different arguments here. The first is with regard to balance. Standard is pretty balanced right now between the aggro decks, combo/control decks, and midrangey strategies like mono-black/Orzhov. There's a decent number of decks to choose from and they all have relatively decent chances of winning depending on card-selection and sideboard tech. I actually think Standard is in a good place and generally pretty fun to play right now.
Argument 2 is "do we like the current school of thought re: design?" I'm not thrilled with the power level of a lot of the cards. Every creature doesn't need to replace itself or generate insane value or have built-in recursion. That being said, they have been at least trying to tone the power down which I applaud. Also, they have been upping the power level of answers a bit in the last couple of sets, which is a welcome change from "no 4 mana wraths, no 2 cmc kill spells."
The problem is now there are newer players used to the current paradigm who throw fits because of how "bad" some of the new cards are.
I would disagree with your first statement of the format being balanced. Take the recent Red Bull tournament (707 players) where the top 8 was 5 izzet control decks and 2 white weenie decks. The Japan Championship Series (128 payers) top 4 izzet control +2 white weenie in top 8. Red Bull (979 players) 3 izzet control 3 white weenie.
Yeah, you can go to your local store with green aggro and win 3 rounds, or with you black control, or zombies, or whatever. The actual real torunament stats prove how unbalanced the format is.
Also, I'd have to see a full analysis to see what those results really mean. There's a lot of confirmation bias in MtG, so if everyone thinks the best deck is Izzet or Mono-White, those strategies will be overrepresented at the top tables even if the archetypes only performed okay on average.
That said, I won't say the format isn't a little Izzet/Mono-White heavy. But that's sort of the nature of Standard in my experience anyway--there's 2 or 3 Tier 1 decks and then (in a good format) a bunch of other decks that can do well in the hands of an experienced pilot or when the metagame shifts favorably.