Not only is Standard pretty diverse and not at all dominated by Dimir, but Dimir isn't even that strong right now. The really and truly Dimir-themed Standard deck, Turbo Surveil, is even more fringe than that Grixis deck.
I came here to have the exact same whinge. Fairly new to standard myself but it really feels like a paper scissors rock format - if your not ultra-fast, its nearly impossible to beat the Dimir and Teferi control decks. Not all that interesting a dynamic in my experience so far.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
I play dimir serveil and I actually feel favored against most all decks mentioned there actually. Grixis is really tough but the rest are even or better I feel. I think it just doesn’t see much play for some reason.
Dimir is just good against the flavor of the month decks. That's the only reason to whine about it. I've been on the Dimir train the past few weeks myself since all I seem to come up against is UR 8Drakes and GB midrange and Dimir can absolutely hose them preboard.
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Used to be on here as Draconek, since the Twitch takeover...who knows...
MTGO: Draconek
Standard: URW Control UB Control
Modern: BRG Living End GR Aggro GW Value
Legacy:
Currently not playing
I came here to have the exact same whinge. Fairly new to standard myself but it really feels like a paper scissors rock format - if your not ultra-fast, its nearly impossible to beat the Dimir and Teferi control decks. Not all that interesting a dynamic in my experience so far.
But that's exactly how it should be and how deck archetypes work.
If you like that, great. But personally I find the control/beatdown dynamic shallow and the idea of decks that are 30 removal and a handful of wincons less than enjoyable.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
If you like that, great. But personally I find the control/beatdown dynamic shallow and the idea of decks that are 30 removal and a handful of wincons less than enjoyable.
Thats what makes for good formats, they appeal to more than 'I like to turn it sideways' players. Control, Combo, Tempo (like your UUU) Midrange, all should in a healthy environment be possible.
The fact Standard actually supports them right now, is why for the first time in what, 5 years, Standard doesnt suck.
Okay, so there is a lot of learning to play that goes into magic and one of the strangest skills to learn... it to know when to scoop. Control is miserable to play against if you don't know you are dead. Control will kill you 7 turns after the point you can no longer win.
There are skills you have to learn about how to play against control, there are serious mind games you have to play on them, they only have so much mana you need to force them into tough decisions do they counter your threat end of turn or do they save it for your next threat, Do they counter their first spell or wait for if there is a second... etc.
To beat control (as a midrange deck) you need low cost and card advantage/filtering and/or then you want everything you play to be a must deal with threat on their own rather than relying on synergy, they only have so many counters/removal.
Second on that learning to scoop. When I started in Modern a good 4 or 5 years ago, that was the hardest thing for me to get. I played bad decks, against this one UW player, and I just hated it.
Picked up Burn, and just burned him out over and over to the point where I understood the dynamic.
I dont know if Standard players ever get that skill/knowledge, this is the first Standard I have actually seriously played.
Second on that learning to scoop. When I started in Modern a good 4 or 5 years ago, that was the hardest thing for me to get. I played bad decks, against this one UW player, and I just hated it.
Picked up Burn, and just burned him out over and over to the point where I understood the dynamic.
I dont know if Standard players ever get that skill/knowledge, this is the first Standard I have actually seriously played.
I guess it depends on the season. Everybody who has played when I got into the game learned that skill because that was after all in the glory days of Sphinx's Revelation and later even Elixir of Immortality decks whose wincon was playing until the opponent ran out of cards
Thats what I see now out of those trying to play pure UW. Land a few Fountain of Renewal hope it keeps you topped up, and then destroy/counter all creatures until Teferi shows up and you cannot lose.
I didnt play back when Rev/Elixir were a thing in Standard, but thats the exact deck that 'welcomed' me to Modern.
Well Standard is usually narrow enough of a format for that to work and I must say that the current Jeskai Control decks come close to the Control decks of the last time we visited Ravnica. Once Niv-Mizzet, Parun, Expansion // Explosion or Teferi, Hero of Dominaria really get going there is almost no way to come back from that.
And the best thing is that Azorius is still to come and if they give them cards as good or even better than last time well then I guess there will be even more upset Midrange players.
I kind of agree that playing against control decks is miserable. Even when I play them, I find myself rooting for my opponent. The only real pleasure in the match is the winning. Having my cool synergies torn apart and winning with a pair of Llanowar Elves going the distance, for example, is not really fun. Further, I think a meta of > 1/4 control would be the death of magic. Lots of control mirrors would kill the growth of magic.
I am happy that the decks exist, however. They make the game more diverse, complex and interesting. Decks with control elements are needed to allow cool big effects and card draw spells to be playable. They prey on slow midrange decks, creating a dynamic tension around deck sizing. They keep noninteractive combo decks from goldfishing to too easy solitaire victories.
They have problems of their own. The mana can be difficult early on, the answers in the deck may be wrong or the wrong answers may be drawn. In competitive environments, many players shy away from them because the matches are long and prone to end in draws.
One can improve one's play against them. Just like the best control players know what their opponents' decks are doing and can figure out which are the key threats, we opponents can know how the control decks work and play to their weaknesses. Not overcommitting to the board when we expect Deafening Clarion, Ritual of Soot or Cleansing Nova is a tool that some game states allow. Looking at 4 mana open including WW and we suspect Settle the Wreckage, could mean limiting the attack or playing a must counter threat during first main. Duress can turn the information imbalance on it's head. There used to be a pinned thread with discussion of how to play against control. I'll see if I can find it in the archives and link it
Standard seems to be in a good place. We have had three straight solid-to-excellent sets and I see new players with more events firing. I am hopeful that standard can recover some popularity. With newer players, the part of the learning curve where we learn to go beyond playing our decks and into deploying them optimally against the field can be unexpected and frustrating. I want those of us who are past that point to encourage less experienced players' growth in a positive way.
People really just need to understand the threats of Control, and how to play around or into them.
Niv needs to die, if they get to untap with it, you are probably done.
Teferi, needs to die, you need to have applied enough pressure ideally, to have them -3, putting him into Shock range.
Settle, needs to be accounted for.
I never see UB in the Constructed Leagues on Arena. Its RW Aggro, Burn, BG Midrange, UR Drakes, UW Control, or UWR Control.
I get that a lot of people cannot handle playing into Control, but I'll do it all day.
Honestly with the release of Arena there are tons of new players, especially from Heartstone. Blue's counters/draws are completely new to handle and there's a ton of complaints compared to normal (just check out Reddit).
Honestly with the release of Arena there are tons of new players, especially from Heartstone. Blue's counters/draws are completely new to handle and there's a ton of complaints compared to normal (just check out Reddit).
lol that actually makes me so happy. Doesnt Hearthstone have no 'instants' at all?
I don't play but from what I hear they don't. I've seen mostly complaints about blue/Teferi being unfair, followed by a few complaints about removal shouldn't be instant speed and Merfolk being overpowered.
Honestly with the release of Arena there are tons of new players, especially from Heartstone. Blue's counters/draws are completely new to handle and there's a ton of complaints compared to normal (just check out Reddit).
lol that actually makes me so happy. Doesnt Hearthstone have no 'instants' at all?
Correct. Everything in hearthstone happens at what we'd call "sorcery speed", and creatures can only have 2 types of abilities: ETB abilities or "when this creature dies" abilities. The nuance of magic is a huge shift for a lot of them including OP, and it takes some getting used to if you're going to play Magic.
That said, you can get used to it. Just need to account for things a bit more when you're playing instead of mindlessly turning dudes sideways.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Okay, so there is a lot of learning to play that goes into magic and one of the strangest skills to learn... it to know when to scoop. Control is miserable to play against if you don't know you are dead. Control will kill you 7 turns after the point you can no longer win.
There are skills you have to learn about how to play against control, there are serious mind games you have to play on them, they only have so much mana you need to force them into tough decisions do they counter your threat end of turn or do they save it for your next threat, Do they counter their first spell or wait for if there is a second... etc.
To beat control (as a midrange deck) you need low cost and card advantage/filtering and/or then you want everything you play to be a must deal with threat on their own rather than relying on synergy, they only have so many counters/removal.
I disagree with this 150%.
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
If you're loosing vs Dimir as Jeskai you are playing redacted. Per Forum Rules, posts should be constructive, nice and respectful. Please PM me if you think this post was. - hoser2
UB isnt even near the top of the meta at the moment I believe.
Spirits
Not only is Standard pretty diverse and not at all dominated by Dimir, but Dimir isn't even that strong right now. The really and truly Dimir-themed Standard deck, Turbo Surveil, is even more fringe than that Grixis deck.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
MTGO: Draconek
Standard:
URW Control
UB Control
Modern:
BRG Living End
GR Aggro
GW Value
Legacy:
Currently not playing
But that's exactly how it should be and how deck archetypes work.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Thats what makes for good formats, they appeal to more than 'I like to turn it sideways' players. Control, Combo, Tempo (like your UUU) Midrange, all should in a healthy environment be possible.
The fact Standard actually supports them right now, is why for the first time in what, 5 years, Standard doesnt suck.
Spirits
There are skills you have to learn about how to play against control, there are serious mind games you have to play on them, they only have so much mana you need to force them into tough decisions do they counter your threat end of turn or do they save it for your next threat, Do they counter their first spell or wait for if there is a second... etc.
To beat control (as a midrange deck) you need low cost and card advantage/filtering and/or then you want everything you play to be a must deal with threat on their own rather than relying on synergy, they only have so many counters/removal.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Picked up Burn, and just burned him out over and over to the point where I understood the dynamic.
I dont know if Standard players ever get that skill/knowledge, this is the first Standard I have actually seriously played.
Spirits
I guess it depends on the season. Everybody who has played when I got into the game learned that skill because that was after all in the glory days of Sphinx's Revelation and later even Elixir of Immortality decks whose wincon was playing until the opponent ran out of cards
I didnt play back when Rev/Elixir were a thing in Standard, but thats the exact deck that 'welcomed' me to Modern.
Spirits
And the best thing is that Azorius is still to come and if they give them cards as good or even better than last time well then I guess there will be even more upset Midrange players.
UWR is very good. I'm slowly getting it together on Arena, just playing Drakes/Arclights for fun.
Spirits
I am happy that the decks exist, however. They make the game more diverse, complex and interesting. Decks with control elements are needed to allow cool big effects and card draw spells to be playable. They prey on slow midrange decks, creating a dynamic tension around deck sizing. They keep noninteractive combo decks from goldfishing to too easy solitaire victories.
They have problems of their own. The mana can be difficult early on, the answers in the deck may be wrong or the wrong answers may be drawn. In competitive environments, many players shy away from them because the matches are long and prone to end in draws.
One can improve one's play against them. Just like the best control players know what their opponents' decks are doing and can figure out which are the key threats, we opponents can know how the control decks work and play to their weaknesses. Not overcommitting to the board when we expect Deafening Clarion, Ritual of Soot or Cleansing Nova is a tool that some game states allow. Looking at 4 mana open including WW and we suspect Settle the Wreckage, could mean limiting the attack or playing a must counter threat during first main. Duress can turn the information imbalance on it's head. There used to be a pinned thread with discussion of how to play against control. I'll see if I can find it in the archives and link it
Standard seems to be in a good place. We have had three straight solid-to-excellent sets and I see new players with more events firing. I am hopeful that standard can recover some popularity. With newer players, the part of the learning curve where we learn to go beyond playing our decks and into deploying them optimally against the field can be unexpected and frustrating. I want those of us who are past that point to encourage less experienced players' growth in a positive way.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Niv needs to die, if they get to untap with it, you are probably done.
Teferi, needs to die, you need to have applied enough pressure ideally, to have them -3, putting him into Shock range.
Settle, needs to be accounted for.
I never see UB in the Constructed Leagues on Arena. Its RW Aggro, Burn, BG Midrange, UR Drakes, UW Control, or UWR Control.
I get that a lot of people cannot handle playing into Control, but I'll do it all day.
Spirits
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
lol that actually makes me so happy. Doesnt Hearthstone have no 'instants' at all?
Spirits
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Spirits
Correct. Everything in hearthstone happens at what we'd call "sorcery speed", and creatures can only have 2 types of abilities: ETB abilities or "when this creature dies" abilities. The nuance of magic is a huge shift for a lot of them including OP, and it takes some getting used to if you're going to play Magic.
That said, you can get used to it. Just need to account for things a bit more when you're playing instead of mindlessly turning dudes sideways.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I disagree with this 150%.
-Stay Frosty
Spirits
Per Forum Rules, posts should be constructive, nice and respectful. Please PM me if you think this post was. - hoser2