Uw control had insane records in this event but a lot of the pilots did not do well in draft. This event confirmed to me that Teferi is insane. Brad Nelson went undefeated in games not matches games with the deck.
Uw control had insane records in this event but a lot of the pilots did not do well in draft. This event confirmed to me that Teferi is insane. Brad Nelson went undefeated in games not matches games with the deck.
This is why I remarked on Twitter, why bother even looking at the Top 8 as this 'doom and gloom' when you could be flawless in the real event, but lose every game in draft?
I find the Pro Tour a complete joke because of the draft portion...
Well, that's a sobering Top 8. At least it looks like people wanting their Karns will get their opportunity since Goblin ChainWhirler was literally everywhere as a four of, and zero sign of Karn at all. Also, Teferi is awsome.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Brad Nelson went 7-3 in standard. To go 7-3 without losing a game seems impossible. Even matches that don't complete a single game should be reported as draws, right?
Wizards published the standard records of the decks, so if you want to filter out the draft-affected top 8, you can. I find a ton of interesting data in the deck lists and standard records. Watching the top 8 would likely be a clinic on Chainwhirler mirrors, as well.
I was hoping for more diversity, and feel pretty disappointed with the top 8. Chainwhirler mirrors seem better than Teferi mirrors at least. Maybe the metagame can find answers.
Brad Nelson went 7-3 in standard. To go 7-3 without losing a game seems impossible. Even matches that don't complete a single game should be reported as draws, right?
Wizards published the standard records of the decks, so if you want to filter out the draft-affected top 8, you can. I find a ton of interesting data in the deck lists and standard records. Watching the top 8 would likely be a clinic on Chainwhirler mirrors, as well.
I was hoping for more diversity, and feel pretty disappointed with the top 8. Chainwhirler mirrors seem better than Teferi mirrors at least. Maybe the metagame can find answers.
Well, I think everyone here and at reddit are saying the same thing about the draft portion having an impact on the results. I don't think that the meta is as bad as the top 8 suggests.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think wizards should share more of the tournament information as it happens. Any sport or event you see everything. Stats, win percentage, and match ups. The more true information we have the better the meta can adjust. People will make informed decisions. Right now everyone will be on r/b aggro. Is there a way to filter out the results better? I just got back into magic and still have issues finding resources for a lot of information.
The reason the decks are hard to stop is that they aren't aggro decks and everyone is thinking they are aggro decks because people are looking at the deck name and not the contents. All of these red decks make use of a mix of Glory Bringer, Hazoret the Fervent, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Rekindling Phoenix as their top end. Does that sound aggro? Outside of everyone's favorite indestructible god, the other two cards are mid-range grinders. And slamming 4x Goblin Chainwhirler in every build is really pushing them into the mid-range territory.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Control is very present: 20% of the field is on White/Blue/x Control, often with a full 4 Settle The Wreckage in their main deck! Yes, the new Red/Black decks are not true aggro in the traditional sense, but WotC has pushed the color so far that it is simply overpowered at the moment. It has:
Goblin Chainwhirler, by itself, seems like a fair card in comparison to the rest of red's cards. However, its presence keeps GB Constrictor (wich runs a several x/1 creatures) and Token decks down (especially Vampires), decks that would otherwise have good game against Red decks.
To attack Red, I think Mono-green Stompy might be a good idea (despite its Pro Tour performance), especially with Ripjaw Raptor.
Having tested quite a bit of RB aggro and Midrange on MTGO I can safely report that a SB plan of:
4 Duress
2-3 Doomfall
2 Angrath the Flame Chained
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1-2 Arguel's Blood Fast
1-2 The Eldest Reborn this card is insane
Throw in a Karn or 2 and you have a SB plan that can match the control deck's card advantage and then some. I've had matches where I've sided out every piece of removal and beaten resolved Lyra's/Gideons/ and Teferi's. The deck cuts 8-11 dead cards for 11+ that really impact the texture of the SB'd match ups.
The top 20 decks are 15 RB/x decks and 5 "other". I didn't think RB was that strong but, being able to hose 1/1's,s have main deck Abrade's for GPG and incidentally also have the mono red draws (if you are on the BR aggro plan) is actually very powerful. Is it unbeatable? Well no, mono red is quite good against it
Also, having heard back from a few friends who ran mono green stompy at the PT, it was not a good choice The deck has issues against ChainWhirler and UW control. You'd think that a deck with all the beef that stompy offers would be able to beat one of those consistently but the truth is that RB can stabilize, remove your threats and out grind you. The mono red match up is much better, but the RB is actually very hard.
Control is very present: 20% of the field is on White/Blue/x Control, often with a full 4 Settle The Wreckage in their main deck! Yes, the new Red/Black decks are not true aggro in the traditional sense, but WotC has pushed the color so far that it is simply overpowered at the moment. It has:
Goblin Chainwhirler, by itself, seems like a fair card in comparison to the rest of red's cards. However, its presence keeps GB Constrictor (wich runs a several x/1 creatures) and Token decks down (especially Vampires), decks that would otherwise have good game against Red decks.
To attack Red, I think Mono-green Stompy might be a good idea (despite its Pro Tour performance), especially with Ripjaw Raptor.
Goblin Chainwhirler is extremely pushed. Assuming a 3/3 vanilla is the basis for a 3 cost card, it already is impervious to a Fatal Push without revolt and Shock, Magma Spray, and an unkicked Shivan Fire. The closest thing that does 1 damage across the board to only opponents creatures is Electrickery when it's overloaded, and that is a one generic and a red that is paying for instant speed. So it feels like a 4 cost that is actually only a 3 cost card. Landing one does way more than people think because it also messes with the combat math in a turn. a 2/4 that could normally block a 3 drop aggressive creature suddenly has already taken a point of damage and now will perish if blocking a 3 power dude. This is the same for a lot of cards dropped on turns one and two.
If it didn't have first strike and had menace or something maybe it would be a little less of a problem, since then it couldn't just run screaming into an opponents Rekindling Phoenix and live.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Red has got too much going for it direct damage, haste, hard to remove threats (recursion or invulnerability), strong options on the mana curve from 1-5, and inexplicably the best fliers in the format (without needing to rely on flying vehicles). Part of it is Kaladesh, Red being pushed cause its Chandras Home Plane. Chainwhirler just broke the camels back by eliminating tokens and 1 toughness creatures. I expect Ravnica to be titled towards Blue because Jace will be the main focus. Although Red does play well into what WOTC like which is aggro and midrange based around swinging in with creatures and overcosted spell answers.
That is hardly fair, I think the issue is a critical mass of creatures possessing some combination of direct damage, haste and resilience unless exiled. Allowing a seamless transition from Aggro to Midrange based on how many one and two drops you want to play. No other color has such a versatile creature base from 1 CMC to 5 CMC to pair with Quality Removal and a Strong Walker. The decks are more Colorless Artifacts then they are Black which only chips in 1 Pip to a removal spell and an activated ability cost.
That is hardly fair, I think the issue is a critical mass of creatures possessing some combination of direct damage, haste and resilience unless exiled. Allowing a seamless transition from Aggro to Midrange based on how many one and two drops you want to play. No other color has such a versatile creature base from 1 CMC to 5 CMC to pair with Quality Removal and a Strong Walker. The decks are more Colorless Artifacts then they are Black which only chips in 1 Pip to a removal spell and an activated ability cost.
Two things at play here:
1) The Top 8 effect is in full swing. I have no idea why WoTC decides to push the top 8 decks in a card game that does have some element of randomness. Outside of people who actually pay attention to the entire top 32 decks (which is not a whole lot of people), everyone is going to see the top 8 and think there's zero diversity.
2) The standard requiem is in full effect. Last time it was the swan song of CoCo. Now it's the swan song of Ramunap Red, vehicles, and all the lovely mid-range value town decks, with a golden dawn of what looks to be UW control and control-midrange coming in the future.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1) I think they try to account for that with the Top 8. Yeah there is randomness thus they give the Top 8 because Top 8 tries to account for that while balancing attention spans most people aren't likely to flip through 32 Decks.
2) I do expect to see such a golden dawn because I partially think what gets pushed is based on who the "Main Walker" is in the Marketing Campaign. Thus why is Red Broken because we had Chandra, Saheeli, Samut and Hautli and assorted Red Characters dominate the marketing. So why are things looking good for UW control cause Teferi was the center of Dominaria (emphasis on Marketing definitely not the actual story) and we all know Jace will be front and center for Ravnica.
1) The Top 8 effect is in full swing. I have no idea why WoTC decides to push the top 8 decks in a card game that does have some element of randomness. Outside of people who actually pay attention to the entire top 32 decks (which is not a whole lot of people), everyone is going to see the top 8 and think there's zero diversity.
To be fair, of the top 20 Standard performances (24 pts and above), 15 were a red variant of some sort. 2 Mono Green, 1 UW Control, 1 Esper Control, & 1 WB Vehicles rounded out the remaining 5. Red decks were 42% of the Day 2 meta to boot
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Day 1 and 2 coverage will begin at 9:00am ET with draft. Five rounds of Standard will start somewhere around 1:30PM ET.
Day 3 coverage will begin with the top 8 playing Standard (best of 5 matches) at 9am ET.
Information for the event is here.
Coverage for the event is here.
You can discuss the event below. Please remain on topic. Off-topic posts will be marked as spam.
Thanks!
-- hoser2
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
BR seems highly played. Mostly on the back of Red getting in free damage that is only stoppable by counters most of the time.
Spirits
Case in point: Kevin Jones trying to fend the deck off with UB Control/Midrange and getting overwhelmed.
Teams were salty about UG Karn getting leaked by the coverage team.
I don't think that had anything to do with UG Karn's conversion rate: the deck looked bad.
This is why I remarked on Twitter, why bother even looking at the Top 8 as this 'doom and gloom' when you could be flawless in the real event, but lose every game in draft?
I find the Pro Tour a complete joke because of the draft portion...
Spirits
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Wizards published the standard records of the decks, so if you want to filter out the draft-affected top 8, you can. I find a ton of interesting data in the deck lists and standard records. Watching the top 8 would likely be a clinic on Chainwhirler mirrors, as well.
I was hoping for more diversity, and feel pretty disappointed with the top 8. Chainwhirler mirrors seem better than Teferi mirrors at least. Maybe the metagame can find answers.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Well, I think everyone here and at reddit are saying the same thing about the draft portion having an impact on the results. I don't think that the meta is as bad as the top 8 suggests.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The reason the decks are hard to stop is that they aren't aggro decks and everyone is thinking they are aggro decks because people are looking at the deck name and not the contents. All of these red decks make use of a mix of Glory Bringer, Hazoret the Fervent, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Rekindling Phoenix as their top end. Does that sound aggro? Outside of everyone's favorite indestructible god, the other two cards are mid-range grinders. And slamming 4x Goblin Chainwhirler in every build is really pushing them into the mid-range territory.
Control should easily kill these things. The only reason they didn't is because the control players didn't exist. Where's the Authority of the Consuls, Settle the Wreckage, and Seal Away? Unlicensed Disintegration answers a Lyra Dawnbringer, but I don't see how that will help if someone is running Spell Pierce and / or Negate with a Torrential Gearhulk. Heck, I'd run Noxious Gearhulk just for the life gain and the ability to kill one of their value creatures.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
- The best Planeswalker in Standard: Chandra, Torch of Defiance.
- Incredibly resilient, hasty and evasive threats: Earthshaker Khenra, Hazoret the Fervent, Rekindling Phoenix, Glorybringer. Creatures that you either have to answer at Instant speed or that you need to exile, or both.
- The best and most efficient removal/burn.
- Card advantage in the form of Bomat Courier and Chandra.
Goblin Chainwhirler, by itself, seems like a fair card in comparison to the rest of red's cards. However, its presence keeps GB Constrictor (wich runs a several x/1 creatures) and Token decks down (especially Vampires), decks that would otherwise have good game against Red decks.
To attack Red, I think Mono-green Stompy might be a good idea (despite its Pro Tour performance), especially with Ripjaw Raptor.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Gotta play go wide with Radha, Mana dorks, Cultivator of blades and Sylvan awakening. IDK why that card hasn't blown up.
4 Duress
2-3 Doomfall
2 Angrath the Flame Chained
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1-2 Arguel's Blood Fast
1-2 The Eldest Reborn this card is insane
Throw in a Karn or 2 and you have a SB plan that can match the control deck's card advantage and then some. I've had matches where I've sided out every piece of removal and beaten resolved Lyra's/Gideons/ and Teferi's. The deck cuts 8-11 dead cards for 11+ that really impact the texture of the SB'd match ups.
The top 20 decks are 15 RB/x decks and 5 "other". I didn't think RB was that strong but, being able to hose 1/1's,s have main deck Abrade's for GPG and incidentally also have the mono red draws (if you are on the BR aggro plan) is actually very powerful. Is it unbeatable? Well no, mono red is quite good against it
Also, having heard back from a few friends who ran mono green stompy at the PT, it was not a good choice The deck has issues against ChainWhirler and UW control. You'd think that a deck with all the beef that stompy offers would be able to beat one of those consistently but the truth is that RB can stabilize, remove your threats and out grind you. The mono red match up is much better, but the RB is actually very hard.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Goblin Chainwhirler is extremely pushed. Assuming a 3/3 vanilla is the basis for a 3 cost card, it already is impervious to a Fatal Push without revolt and Shock, Magma Spray, and an unkicked Shivan Fire. The closest thing that does 1 damage across the board to only opponents creatures is Electrickery when it's overloaded, and that is a one generic and a red that is paying for instant speed. So it feels like a 4 cost that is actually only a 3 cost card. Landing one does way more than people think because it also messes with the combat math in a turn. a 2/4 that could normally block a 3 drop aggressive creature suddenly has already taken a point of damage and now will perish if blocking a 3 power dude. This is the same for a lot of cards dropped on turns one and two.
If it didn't have first strike and had menace or something maybe it would be a little less of a problem, since then it couldn't just run screaming into an opponents Rekindling Phoenix and live.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That is hardly fair, I think the issue is a critical mass of creatures possessing some combination of direct damage, haste and resilience unless exiled. Allowing a seamless transition from Aggro to Midrange based on how many one and two drops you want to play. No other color has such a versatile creature base from 1 CMC to 5 CMC to pair with Quality Removal and a Strong Walker. The decks are more Colorless Artifacts then they are Black which only chips in 1 Pip to a removal spell and an activated ability cost.
Two things at play here:
1) The Top 8 effect is in full swing. I have no idea why WoTC decides to push the top 8 decks in a card game that does have some element of randomness. Outside of people who actually pay attention to the entire top 32 decks (which is not a whole lot of people), everyone is going to see the top 8 and think there's zero diversity.
2) The standard requiem is in full effect. Last time it was the swan song of CoCo. Now it's the swan song of Ramunap Red, vehicles, and all the lovely mid-range value town decks, with a golden dawn of what looks to be UW control and control-midrange coming in the future.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
2) I do expect to see such a golden dawn because I partially think what gets pushed is based on who the "Main Walker" is in the Marketing Campaign. Thus why is Red Broken because we had Chandra, Saheeli, Samut and Hautli and assorted Red Characters dominate the marketing. So why are things looking good for UW control cause Teferi was the center of Dominaria (emphasis on Marketing definitely not the actual story) and we all know Jace will be front and center for Ravnica.
To be fair, of the top 20 Standard performances (24 pts and above), 15 were a red variant of some sort. 2 Mono Green, 1 UW Control, 1 Esper Control, & 1 WB Vehicles rounded out the remaining 5. Red decks were 42% of the Day 2 meta to boot