Having to bring this up because I feel like standard has been casting a shadow on the entire block, but after looking back in hindsight I think that Amonkhet is by far a much better set than Ixalan ended up being. Embalm and aftermath cards are actually pretty interesting mechanics, and besides the typical complaints of them making the set full of draft fodder and probably dooming the entire idea train because of it, something like Cut // Ribbons feels like it will age well. Anyone else sort of the same mind or have a different take on it? I'm kind of hoping they do a run of the set with better stock before it rotates out.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It has certainly aged better than people anticipated. Most decks in the format are influenced in no small part by either Amonkhet or HoD. as for Cut/Ribbons, the problem right now with the card is that there just isn't a home for it. It's actually a pretty good card overall, but without a good R/B/x deck, there just isn't a home for it. It's a card I feel would benefit significantly from something like Read the Bones in the format for midrange lists, or some sort of R/B aggro list. Given that Ramunap Red would be the starting point for such a list, the problem is that there isn't any reason to go that route. RR is just doing fine right now. Which leaves a sort of Midrange-Control shell, however there just isn't any good card draw in Black right now. Read the Bones would be fantastic.
It has certainly aged better than people anticipated. Most decks in the format are influenced in no small part by either Amonkhet or HoD. as for Cut/Ribbons, the problem right now with the card is that there just isn't a home for it. It's actually a pretty good card overall, but without a good R/B/x deck, there just isn't a home for it. It's a card I feel would benefit significantly from something like Read the Bones in the format for midrange lists, or some sort of R/B aggro list. Given that Ramunap Red would be the starting point for such a list, the problem is that there isn't any reason to go that route. RR is just doing fine right now. Which leaves a sort of Midrange-Control shell, however there just isn't any good card draw in Black right now. Read the Bones would be fantastic.
Yeah, I think the lack of a good draw spell in black is probably the main reason for it not seeing play. I was expecting one to show up in HoD, but that never actually manifested, with Glimmer of Genius still being the absolute best draw spell in the format.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think the problem with standard right now is that Energy just seems to be so much stronger than most other things you can be doing in standard right now. Amonkhet and Ixalan just seem to be overshadowed by Kaladesh block right now, which kinda sucks because I like the flavour of them more than Kaladesh.
Will Amonkhet rotate out at the same time as Kaladesh?
I think Amonkhet was medium-ish in power but it did impact standard just enough (compared to Ixalan so far). Mono red came back, control was viable again, GPG came from it, and Scarab God is possibly the most impactful creature in standard.
Will Amonkhet rotate out at the same time as Kaladesh?
Yes, Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet and Hour of Devastiation will rotate out all together.
Which is really sad. I wouldn't mind if Amonkhet stayed forever...
Imagine what an even better set it would've been, had it not been overshadowed by Kaladesh (like pretty much everything else right now, especially Ixalan).
Amonkhet is a good block, very fun! Kaladesh is definitely the strongest block in standard, but Amonkhet is no joke. Ixalan is the dog right now, and really needs some help from Rivals. I struggle to find very many cards from Ixalan I want to play with, let alone build around.
Amonkhet is an excellent, well-designed block. Unfortunately Kaladesh is an awful block that not only caused bannings, but also completely overshadows both Amonkhet and Ixalan since energy is both powerful and parasitic.
Will Amonkhet rotate out at the same time as Kaladesh?
Yes, Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet and Hour of Devastiation will rotate out all together.
Which is really sad. I wouldn't mind if Amonkhet stayed forever...
Imagine what an even better set it would've been, had it not been overshadowed by Kaladesh (like pretty much everything else right now, especially Ixalan).
that's how I feel, Kaladesh does seem to be overshadowing a lot of stuff
Amoket Ixalan and Shadows of Innistrad would have been a great Standard season. Madness works with the graveyard stuff in Amoket, the spells and tempo of Ixalan work with the spirits. Oddly I think investigate and treasures would work well together.
Although Cycling and Delirium would probably be too nuts
Set isn't weak, but aftermath and embalm/eternalize are just slamming free value onto cards, which is problem with game design that makes standard so boring.
The main problem I see with sets like Kaladesh is that it seems like the set is too strong for standard to flourish, yet it is too weak to even impact modern all that much, which speaks volumes of how out of control modern really is compared to where it was back when it began. The second the format edged out five drop creatures and it became a format where decks without fast mana had to cap at four drops was the sign the format got too fast. The big difference between standard and modern is that standard people have to play "around" potential answers. In modern most decks just try to play through answers because the answers most of the time are inefficient.
Amonkhet has a similar thing with embalm and eternalize, but if modern were to get slowed down somehow some of the better embalm / eternalize cards could see play. Modern actually needs cards like Daze and Stifle more than strait up Counter Spell. Standard is in sort of a similar place, which is why in standard sometimes it feels like it's more about who can put down more power on the board early, get in for early swings, and then play around whatever the opponent is going to have up to turn the game around on T3-T4. They actually added in a surprisingly good spell in Rivals for red that is an instant speed Flame slash. It does hit something for 2 on your own side of the field, but in the kind of decks that would run it I don't think that's going to be a problem.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The main problem I see with sets like Kaladesh is that it seems like the set is too strong for standard to flourish, yet it is too weak to even impact modern all that much, which speaks volumes of how out of control modern really is compared to where it was back when it began.
I strongly disagree. Sets like Kaladesh being "too strong" for Standard is a statement of how weak Standard is, not how strong Modern is. For example, except for perhaps Felidar Guardian, none of the cards banned in the last 2 years in Standard would have warranted a banning had answers been good enough.
Also, "when it began" Modern was actually faster than it is now (see: Blighted Agent+Blazing Shoal). It's actually gotten toned down considerably since then.
The second the format edged out five drop creatures and it became a format where decks without fast mana had to cap at four drops was the sign the format got too fast.
So you mean Day 1? No, legitimately, when were 5+ mana creatures that were expected to be "honestly cast" ever a real thing in Modern? The only such creature that used to be common but isn't anymore I can think of is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and a big part of that was the fact that the decks he was best in (Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin) got banned!
The main problem I see with sets like Kaladesh is that it seems like the set is too strong for standard to flourish, yet it is too weak to even impact modern all that much, which speaks volumes of how out of control modern really is compared to where it was back when it began.
I strongly disagree. Sets like Kaladesh being "too strong" for Standard is a statement of how weak Standard is, not how strong Modern is. For example, except for perhaps Felidar Guardian, none of the cards banned in the last 2 years in Standard would have warranted a banning had answers been good enough.
Also, "when it began" Modern was actually faster than it is now (see: Blighted Agent+Blazing Shoal). It's actually gotten toned down considerably since then.
The second the format edged out five drop creatures and it became a format where decks without fast mana had to cap at four drops was the sign the format got too fast.
So you mean Day 1? No, legitimately, when were 5+ mana creatures that were expected to be "honestly cast" ever a real thing in Modern? The only such creature that used to be common but isn't anymore I can think of is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and a big part of that was the fact that the decks he was best in (Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin) got banned!
Actually, soul sisters and a few others had 5 drops, just not the top tier if I recall. In all honesty I probably need to go back and take a look at what was alive at the time because even though I'm saying there were five drops around that doesn't mean they had a super strong presence. Also technically when I'm talking about modern my mind doesn't even comprehend the official birth of the format. It was something that existed before they officially coined it, just that when wizards finally stated "this format is called modern", it kind of exploded.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The main problem I see with sets like Kaladesh is that it seems like the set is too strong for standard to flourish, yet it is too weak to even impact modern all that much, which speaks volumes of how out of control modern really is compared to where it was back when it began.
I strongly disagree. Sets like Kaladesh being "too strong" for Standard is a statement of how weak Standard is, not how strong Modern is. For example, except for perhaps Felidar Guardian, none of the cards banned in the last 2 years in Standard would have warranted a banning had answers been good enough.
Also, "when it began" Modern was actually faster than it is now (see: Blighted Agent+Blazing Shoal). It's actually gotten toned down considerably since then.
The second the format edged out five drop creatures and it became a format where decks without fast mana had to cap at four drops was the sign the format got too fast.
So you mean Day 1? No, legitimately, when were 5+ mana creatures that were expected to be "honestly cast" ever a real thing in Modern? The only such creature that used to be common but isn't anymore I can think of is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and a big part of that was the fact that the decks he was best in (Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin) got banned!
Actually, soul sisters and a few others had 5 drops, just not the top tier if I recall. In all honesty I probably need to go back and take a look at what was alive at the time because even though I'm saying there were five drops around that doesn't mean they had a super strong presence. Also technically when I'm talking about modern my mind doesn't even comprehend the official birth of the format. It was something that existed before they officially coined it, just that when wizards finally stated "this format is called modern", it kind of exploded.
Modern was sort of created whole cloth. The closest thing previous to it was overextended which was still pretty different. The first real modern tournament had quite a few more things legal and saw dominant play by fast aggro with Wild Nacatl and even cards like Hypergenesis going crazy. So far as I am aware 5+ drops have never been more common than 1 or 2 off in a few decks. Thundermaw Hellkite for example saw some play in Jund lists when Lingering Souls was rampant for a bit. Thragtusk sees some play currently. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a solid finisher. Pretty much in order to play more than 2 5 drops though you need to be using Urzas lands.
The main problem I see with sets like Kaladesh is that it seems like the set is too strong for standard to flourish, yet it is too weak to even impact modern all that much, which speaks volumes of how out of control modern really is compared to where it was back when it began.
I strongly disagree. Sets like Kaladesh being "too strong" for Standard is a statement of how weak Standard is, not how strong Modern is. For example, except for perhaps Felidar Guardian, none of the cards banned in the last 2 years in Standard would have warranted a banning had answers been good enough.
Also, "when it began" Modern was actually faster than it is now (see: Blighted Agent+Blazing Shoal). It's actually gotten toned down considerably since then.
The second the format edged out five drop creatures and it became a format where decks without fast mana had to cap at four drops was the sign the format got too fast.
So you mean Day 1? No, legitimately, when were 5+ mana creatures that were expected to be "honestly cast" ever a real thing in Modern? The only such creature that used to be common but isn't anymore I can think of is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and a big part of that was the fact that the decks he was best in (Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin) got banned!
Actually, soul sisters and a few others had 5 drops, just not the top tier if I recall. In all honesty I probably need to go back and take a look at what was alive at the time because even though I'm saying there were five drops around that doesn't mean they had a super strong presence.
Soul Sisters? Let's test that. The best finish Soul Sisters ever got was back in 2012, and... hrm, I don't see a single 5-drop in that list. It's true that (after being printed) you'd occasionally see Archangel of Thune in Soul Sisters, but those were the exception rather than the rule. And even today you'll still occasionally see it played, like this deck. Is it common? No. But it was never common to begin with. So the example you pulled was to point to a card that saw fringe play in a fringe deck and continues to do so.
Also technically when I'm talking about modern my mind doesn't even comprehend the official birth of the format. It was something that existed before they officially coined it, just that when wizards finally stated "this format is called modern", it kind of exploded.
Even if we count the start of Modern as after they banned Punishing Fire, your claim about how the format has sped up to the point that "honest" 5-drops can't be played still doesn't hold up. 4 mana has always been the curve topper in Modern, with actual 5-drops being very rare. That was true then and that's still true now.
So I still hold my contention that the fact cards that run roughshod over Standard barely making a dent in Modern is a problem of Standard, not Modern.
Lord Seth help me out here, I'm having a hard time seeing the conflict. You just said that Archangel of Thune saw play in soul sisters, which satisfies the statement on five drops. So is this just an argument on how prolific five drops are? I'm just sort of confused.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Lord Seth help me out here, I'm having a hard time seeing the conflict. You just said that Archangel of Thune saw play in soul sisters, which satisfies the statement on five drops.
Okay, let's refresh. You claimed that decks capping out at 4 mana is proof the format is too fast compared to where it was before. I argued that that was the case even back when it was supposedly "slower" and that 5-drops weren't really any more of a thing in the past than they are now (again, obviously ignoring cases involving things like ramp or creatures that the player doesn't plan to cast). In response, you pointed to Archangel of Thune seeing play in Soul Sisters. There are several problems with that.
1) Soul Sisters is a fairly fringe deck. It's goofy to cite a deck that wasn't that great as proof that 5-drops were being played in the past. It's like pointing to this as proof that Aetherworks Marvel is played in Modern. Now, Soul Sisters isn't quite on that level, but if you're having to reach into Tier 3 to find an example of what you claim wasn't that uncommon, that indicates you're stretching here.
2) A minority of Soul Sisters builds played the card. This wasn't typical for the deck. So we're talking about a minority of builds in an already fringe deck. You're not exactly showing proof that this was in any way typical.
3) Even ignoring #1 and #2, some Soul Sisters decks run the card now, as I pointed out. So you can't argue that there's a lack of 5-drops nowdays compared to the past when the card you cited is still played in the deck! (although, like before, in a minority of builds)
So is this just an argument on how prolific five drops are? I'm just sort of confused.
It's an argument that your appeal to Soul Sisters doesn't work for the three reasons I previously stated and have re-stated.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Cool set floored by sharing rotation with a busted Artifacts block but that's Standard for ya
Artifacts are not what made Kaladesh strong. Energy was. The vast majority of Artifacts are barely even looked at (relative to Mirrordin).
When i made that comment 1 artifact was banned and no energy cards were. But perhaps a better comparison would be to a powerful parascitic mechanic like modular.
Cool set floored by sharing rotation with a busted Artifacts block but that's Standard for ya
Artifacts are not what made Kaladesh strong. Energy was. The vast majority of Artifacts are barely even looked at (relative to Mirrordin).
When i made that comment 1 artifact was banned and no energy cards were. But perhaps a better comparison would be to a powerful parascitic mechanic like modular.
That's fair. Artifacts weren't really the problem with Mirrodin, the Affinity Mechanic was.
I only really disliked Amonkhet block as a whole because of the story/lore/flavor. As far as gameplay goes, it was okay, though even then I didn't think Hour of Devastation had that much for me.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah, I think the lack of a good draw spell in black is probably the main reason for it not seeing play. I was expecting one to show up in HoD, but that never actually manifested, with Glimmer of Genius still being the absolute best draw spell in the format.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Will Amonkhet rotate out at the same time as Kaladesh?
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Which is really sad. I wouldn't mind if Amonkhet stayed forever...
Imagine what an even better set it would've been, had it not been overshadowed by Kaladesh (like pretty much everything else right now, especially Ixalan).
that's how I feel, Kaladesh does seem to be overshadowing a lot of stuff
Although Cycling and Delirium would probably be too nuts
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
I'm ultra sad Azor will see 0 play.
Amonkhet has a similar thing with embalm and eternalize, but if modern were to get slowed down somehow some of the better embalm / eternalize cards could see play. Modern actually needs cards like Daze and Stifle more than strait up Counter Spell. Standard is in sort of a similar place, which is why in standard sometimes it feels like it's more about who can put down more power on the board early, get in for early swings, and then play around whatever the opponent is going to have up to turn the game around on T3-T4. They actually added in a surprisingly good spell in Rivals for red that is an instant speed Flame slash. It does hit something for 2 on your own side of the field, but in the kind of decks that would run it I don't think that's going to be a problem.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, "when it began" Modern was actually faster than it is now (see: Blighted Agent+Blazing Shoal). It's actually gotten toned down considerably since then.
So you mean Day 1? No, legitimately, when were 5+ mana creatures that were expected to be "honestly cast" ever a real thing in Modern? The only such creature that used to be common but isn't anymore I can think of is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and a big part of that was the fact that the decks he was best in (Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin) got banned!
Cool set floored by sharing rotation with a busted Artifacts block but that's Standard for ya
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
Actually, soul sisters and a few others had 5 drops, just not the top tier if I recall. In all honesty I probably need to go back and take a look at what was alive at the time because even though I'm saying there were five drops around that doesn't mean they had a super strong presence. Also technically when I'm talking about modern my mind doesn't even comprehend the official birth of the format. It was something that existed before they officially coined it, just that when wizards finally stated "this format is called modern", it kind of exploded.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Modern was sort of created whole cloth. The closest thing previous to it was overextended which was still pretty different. The first real modern tournament had quite a few more things legal and saw dominant play by fast aggro with Wild Nacatl and even cards like Hypergenesis going crazy. So far as I am aware 5+ drops have never been more common than 1 or 2 off in a few decks. Thundermaw Hellkite for example saw some play in Jund lists when Lingering Souls was rampant for a bit. Thragtusk sees some play currently. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a solid finisher. Pretty much in order to play more than 2 5 drops though you need to be using Urzas lands.
Even if we count the start of Modern as after they banned Punishing Fire, your claim about how the format has sped up to the point that "honest" 5-drops can't be played still doesn't hold up. 4 mana has always been the curve topper in Modern, with actual 5-drops being very rare. That was true then and that's still true now.
So I still hold my contention that the fact cards that run roughshod over Standard barely making a dent in Modern is a problem of Standard, not Modern.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1) Soul Sisters is a fairly fringe deck. It's goofy to cite a deck that wasn't that great as proof that 5-drops were being played in the past. It's like pointing to this as proof that Aetherworks Marvel is played in Modern. Now, Soul Sisters isn't quite on that level, but if you're having to reach into Tier 3 to find an example of what you claim wasn't that uncommon, that indicates you're stretching here.
2) A minority of Soul Sisters builds played the card. This wasn't typical for the deck. So we're talking about a minority of builds in an already fringe deck. You're not exactly showing proof that this was in any way typical.
3) Even ignoring #1 and #2, some Soul Sisters decks run the card now, as I pointed out. So you can't argue that there's a lack of 5-drops nowdays compared to the past when the card you cited is still played in the deck! (although, like before, in a minority of builds)
It's an argument that your appeal to Soul Sisters doesn't work for the three reasons I previously stated and have re-stated.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Artifacts are not what made Kaladesh strong. Energy was. The vast majority of Artifacts are barely even looked at (relative to Mirrordin).
When i made that comment 1 artifact was banned and no energy cards were. But perhaps a better comparison would be to a powerful parascitic mechanic like modular.
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
That's fair. Artifacts weren't really the problem with Mirrodin, the Affinity Mechanic was.