Banning more things now is bad for Pioneer as a competative format. There is just no data to support any bans, and no deck is obviously too strong. People like to hate on Field of the Dead, but I don't believe it's as good as people say it is. Most of the other decks that seem to be tier 1 right now are well equiped to go beat it. It is a real problem for control to beat, but every deck has it's bad matchups. I personally thing Once Upon a Time makes green decks way too consistent, but again: there's not enough tournament data to prove it.
They may be made on small amounts of data or observation, but are never "random".
Personally I think Once Upon a Time is bad for the format from the observations I have made in games I have played. I also think Smuggler's Copter needs to go as it fits into every deck and is too big a threat for a lot of non tier decks.
Again this is based on my observations and limited data, far from random.
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Smuggler's Copter getting the ban for being "too big a threat for a lot of non tier decks" makes no sense. Non-tier decks can play all the answers to the copter that the tier decks can play. I think what you want to say is that it homogenizes decks, and that every midrangey creature deck will want to play the copter. I don't think that is actually true though. Collected Company decks often don't want the copter because it's not a CoCo hit. Any deck that ramps will want to play bigger threats. It's barely fast enough to be played in aggro decks (Simic Aggro doesn't want it, mono-red sometimes does).
I would ban the top 3 and then Oko as well. Players hate LD and Thoughtseize on the play turn one ripping out a critical piece is "feel bad" as it gets. Duress and Despise would be there to fill the gap. OuaT smoothes out the strategies for G way too much and is "free" to boot. Copter will warp the meta and eat up SB slots in non tier decks so they can't battle the aggro decks as well.
I am for a heavy hand in this format. Its not "solved" yet but it is getting close already just a month or so into it. Decks are just turning into piles of good stuff, basically a Modern Light. Prices for Tier decks are soaring as well as everyone has to play the same cards to compete. It is what it is but I feel it needs aggressive bannings to keep it fresh.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew), Pioneer, Pauper and Modern
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I would ban the top 3 and then Oko as well. Players hate LD and Thoughtseize on the play turn one ripping out a critical piece is "feel bad" as it gets. Duress and Despise would be there to fill the gap. OuaT smoothes out the strategies for G way too much and is "free" to boot. Copter will warp the meta and eat up SB slots in non tier decks so they can't battle the aggro decks as well.
I am for a heavy hand in this format. Its not "solved" yet but it is getting close already just a month or so into it. Decks are just turning into piles of good stuff, basically a Modern Light. Prices for Tier decks are soaring as well as everyone has to play the same cards to compete. It is what it is but I feel it needs aggressive bannings to keep it fresh.
Top 7 decks as of this time are all $450 USD in paper and up. The usual pay to play.
What is pressing Collected Company out of being a top 50 played card, ditto Aetherworks Marvel and Jeskai Ascendancy? If I'm not mistaken these three were supposed to be "look out for" pillars of three strong decks entering the format, and potential ban targets -- yet none of the three are banned and none are top 50 played cards, despite being a 4 of in a deck featuring them?
[quote from="WarMachinePrime »" url="/forums/the-game/pioneer/814856-pioneer-banned-list-speculation?comment=65"]Top cards in the format. Total Golgari-fest.
I would ban the top 3 and then Oko as well. Players hate LD and Thoughtseize on the play turn one ripping out a critical piece is "feel bad" as it gets. Duress and Despise would be there to fill the gap. OuaT smoothes out the strategies for G way too much and is "free" to boot. Copter will warp the meta and eat up SB slots in non tier decks so they can't battle the aggro decks as well.
I am for a heavy hand in this format. Its not "solved" yet but it is getting close already just a month or so into it. Decks are just turning into piles of good stuff, basically a Modern Light. Prices for Tier decks are soaring as well as everyone has to play the same cards to compete. It is what it is but I feel it needs aggressive bannings to keep it fresh.
Top 7 decks as of this time are all $450 USD in paper and up. The usual pay to play.
What is pressing Collected Company out of being a top 50 played card, ditto Aetherworks Marvel and Jeskai Ascendancy? If I'm not mistaken these three were supposed to be "look out for" pillars of three strong decks entering the format, and potential ban targets -- yet none of the three are banned and none are top 50 played cards, despite being a 4 of in a deck featuring them?
They are all "too slow" at this moment. Why wait until turn 3 or four when you can have 3 creatures/threats on the board in in any other color by turn 2? Don't worry all the G creature heavy decks will be mashing CoCo into them in a while anyway. I like the idea of this format, its just quickly devolving into Modern-lite. Pricey decks, flashy Spike rares and mythics and not a whole lot else.
Again, I am for a HEAVY hand in this format. I am sure I am in the minority. The same cards played in slightly different configurations becomes stagnant to me. Ban some of these cards that everyone jams into their decks and their may be more diversity. Time will tell.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew), Pioneer, Pauper and Modern
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Here's a weird one. Is Arboreal Grazer too good and should be monitored?
Unline the mana dorks you are almost guaranteed to drop that land (not even a basic). You can't use removal to slow the ramp. Then it has reach and is an 0/3 to stop aggro as well.
This funny little common seems to do its job almost too well. Thoughts? (Other than don't ban Thoughtseize)
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Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
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Here's a weird one. Is Arboreal Grazer too good and should be monitored?
Unline the mana dorks you are almost guaranteed to drop that land (not even a basic). You can't use removal to slow the ramp. Then it has reach and is an 0/3 to stop aggro as well.
This funny little common seems to do its job almost too well. Thoughts? (Other than don't ban Thoughtseize)
This card requires your deck being built w/a higher than normal land count to be optimal.
Banning grazer would be a good way to rein in field and 'tron'drazi ramp decks if they become oppressive: losing grazer would make them much more vulnerable to aggro without affecting their strategy at all.
It might not be enough of a nerf, but I'd try a grazer ban before a field ban.
That said, I'd ban every one drop mana dork from pioneer, so many decks lack efficient interactions for them
Banning grazer would be a good way to rein in field and 'tron'drazi ramp decks if they become oppressive: losing grazer would make them much more vulnerable to aggro without affecting their strategy at all.
It might not be enough of a nerf, but I'd try a grazer ban before a field ban.
That said, I'd ban every one drop mana dork from pioneer, so many decks lack efficient interactions for them
Good points on grazer. If it were an 0/2 with defender and put a basic into play I'd be okay with it but at 3 toughness and reach and ANY land it puts it over the top at common for sure.
As for banning the dorks, I feel there are plenty of unswers out there in black, red and even blue with Unsummon at the 1 cmc slot.
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Once Upon a Time
Smuggler's Copter
Field of the Dead
BANNED
A from me, thank you WotC.
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oh man, I'm so glad I don't play that format 'port your recently rotated Standard decks over!' they said. just not the ones that were actually excellent. if you want to play the cards that were powerful and exciting in Standard, go play Modern. it probably won't do well, but I wouldn't want to buy into a deck that could put up results in Pioneer, that's for sure. if you can't play a top tier deck in either format, might as well play the one that lets you use CopyCat
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oh man, I'm so glad I don't play that format 'port your recently rotated Standard decks over!' they said. just not the ones that were actually excellent. if you want to play the cards that were powerful and exciting in Standard, go play Modern. it probably won't do well, but I wouldn't want to buy into a deck that could put up results in Pioneer, that's for sure. if you can't play a top tier deck in either format, might as well play the one that lets you use CopyCat
Maybe its for the better, if it works it works... if not... well it should die a quick death either way quick and constant bannings is something new... maybe it will work out
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'Cause two out of three ain't bad.
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Smuggler's Copter and Once Upon a Time should be banned, because they do things cards shouldn't do. Giving any aggro deck an efficient 3/3 flier that loots for 2 mana is insane. Giving Green the free digging power of OUaT when they already have so many playable 1 mana dorks gives it a consistency that circumvents variance, a huge part of Magic. I don't think Thoughtseize makes any sense as a bannable card. There has to be low cost interaction to battle combo and control decks. It's definitely a strong role player, but that doesn't make it bannable in my book. Otherwise we'd have to play something like Duress and completely whiff against creature-based decks, then what? Sideboard in 4 Despise and side out the Duress in games 2 and 3? That's awful. I just don't like that as an option.
Giving Green the free digging power of OUaT when they already have so many playable 1 mana dorks gives it a consistency that circumvents variance, a huge part of Magic.
play something like Duress and completely whiff against creature-based decks
Interesting, so variance is good when it comes to green but bad when it comes to black? I get what you are saying, I just think the message needs to be consistent. I would be fine with a Duress/Despise split and I play a lot of mono black.
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Giving Green the free digging power of OUaT when they already have so many playable 1 mana dorks gives it a consistency that circumvents variance, a huge part of Magic.
play something like Duress and completely whiff against creature-based decks
Interesting, so variance is good when it comes to green but bad when it comes to black? I get what you are saying, I just think the message needs to be consistent. I would be fine with a Duress/Despise split and I play a lot of mono black.
I hope you see that these are two different things entirely. Duress and Despise aren't really cards I'd want to mainboard, because they often miss in certain matchups. That puts you behind on card advantage. Not having a manadork or a 3-drop to capitalize on it puts you behind on a different axis.
Green decks were very consistent in putting a 3-drop on the battlefield on turn two, because of OUaT. This was reflected in the meta (tons of green based aggro decks). Thoughtseize is played in mono-black aggro and Golgari lands, both of which have been hit by last monday's bans in another way. Let's just await what the new tier one decks will be.
Don't be sad,
'Cause two out of three ain't bad.
-Meatloaf
Smuggler's Copter and Once Upon a Time should be banned, because they do things cards shouldn't do. Giving any aggro deck an efficient 3/3 flier that loots for 2 mana is insane. Giving Green the free digging power of OUaT when they already have so many playable 1 mana dorks gives it a consistency that circumvents variance, a huge part of Magic. I don't think Thoughtseize makes any sense as a bannable card. There has to be low cost interaction to battle combo and control decks. It's definitely a strong role player, but that doesn't make it bannable in my book. Otherwise we'd have to play something like Duress and completely whiff against creature-based decks, then what? Sideboard in 4 Despise and side out the Duress in games 2 and 3? That's awful. I just don't like that as an option.
I quite agree, although I wouldn't have minded giving my long-idle Copters a bit of a whirl. I just didn't get around to it.
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Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
They may be made on small amounts of data or observation, but are never "random".
Personally I think Once Upon a Time is bad for the format from the observations I have made in games I have played. I also think Smuggler's Copter needs to go as it fits into every deck and is too big a threat for a lot of non tier decks.
Again this is based on my observations and limited data, far from random.
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https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/pioneer/full/all
I would ban the top 3 and then Oko as well. Players hate LD and Thoughtseize on the play turn one ripping out a critical piece is "feel bad" as it gets. Duress and Despise would be there to fill the gap. OuaT smoothes out the strategies for G way too much and is "free" to boot. Copter will warp the meta and eat up SB slots in non tier decks so they can't battle the aggro decks as well.
I am for a heavy hand in this format. Its not "solved" yet but it is getting close already just a month or so into it. Decks are just turning into piles of good stuff, basically a Modern Light. Prices for Tier decks are soaring as well as everyone has to play the same cards to compete. It is what it is but I feel it needs aggressive bannings to keep it fresh.
PS: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/pioneer#paper
Top 7 decks as of this time are all $450 USD in paper and up. The usual pay to play.
Support Ukraine: Boycott Chinese goods / NEVER FORGET 9/11 / Remember David Dorn / Every Life Matters / Keep LEO Funded(sensibly)
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
What is pressing Collected Company out of being a top 50 played card, ditto Aetherworks Marvel and Jeskai Ascendancy? If I'm not mistaken these three were supposed to be "look out for" pillars of three strong decks entering the format, and potential ban targets -- yet none of the three are banned and none are top 50 played cards, despite being a 4 of in a deck featuring them?
What is pressing Collected Company out of being a top 50 played card, ditto Aetherworks Marvel and Jeskai Ascendancy? If I'm not mistaken these three were supposed to be "look out for" pillars of three strong decks entering the format, and potential ban targets -- yet none of the three are banned and none are top 50 played cards, despite being a 4 of in a deck featuring them?
They are all "too slow" at this moment. Why wait until turn 3 or four when you can have 3 creatures/threats on the board in in any other color by turn 2? Don't worry all the G creature heavy decks will be mashing CoCo into them in a while anyway. I like the idea of this format, its just quickly devolving into Modern-lite. Pricey decks, flashy Spike rares and mythics and not a whole lot else.
Again, I am for a HEAVY hand in this format. I am sure I am in the minority. The same cards played in slightly different configurations becomes stagnant to me. Ban some of these cards that everyone jams into their decks and their may be more diversity. Time will tell.
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Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/brewer-s-minute-pioneer-bannings-and-watch-list-2-0
And yes some are mentioning Thoughtseize as well in the comments.
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Unline the mana dorks you are almost guaranteed to drop that land (not even a basic). You can't use removal to slow the ramp. Then it has reach and is an 0/3 to stop aggro as well.
This funny little common seems to do its job almost too well. Thoughts? (Other than don't ban Thoughtseize)
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This card requires your deck being built w/a higher than normal land count to be optimal.
It's fair imo.
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkfx2kA8gok&feature=emb_logo
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3RYiZJFCK0
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j18HlKybrm8&feature=emb_logo
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiAEzfAgpbI&t=1s
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNr_4ubfMg&t=1s
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJcwpxraL-g&t=1s
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MyVNLVYNw&t=1s
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-M5ffoArnY&t=1s
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yQEBOPi_w&feature=emb_logo
extended - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpUB9zpyr4&feature=emb_logo
It might not be enough of a nerf, but I'd try a grazer ban before a field ban.
That said, I'd ban every one drop mana dork from pioneer, so many decks lack efficient interactions for them
Good points on grazer. If it were an 0/2 with defender and put a basic into play I'd be okay with it but at 3 toughness and reach and ANY land it puts it over the top at common for sure.
As for banning the dorks, I feel there are plenty of unswers out there in black, red and even blue with Unsummon at the 1 cmc slot.
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Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Once Upon a Time
Smuggler's Copter
Field of the Dead
BANNED
A
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Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
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Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Maybe its for the better, if it works it works... if not... well it should die a quick death
Reality is but a perception of your being --
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Don't be sad,
'Cause two out of three ain't bad.
-Meatloaf
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
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StaffSmuggler's Copter and Once Upon a Time should be banned, because they do things cards shouldn't do. Giving any aggro deck an efficient 3/3 flier that loots for 2 mana is insane. Giving Green the free digging power of OUaT when they already have so many playable 1 mana dorks gives it a consistency that circumvents variance, a huge part of Magic. I don't think Thoughtseize makes any sense as a bannable card. There has to be low cost interaction to battle combo and control decks. It's definitely a strong role player, but that doesn't make it bannable in my book. Otherwise we'd have to play something like Duress and completely whiff against creature-based decks, then what? Sideboard in 4 Despise and side out the Duress in games 2 and 3? That's awful. I just don't like that as an option.
Interesting, so variance is good when it comes to green but bad when it comes to black? I get what you are saying, I just think the message needs to be consistent. I would be fine with a Duress/Despise split and I play a lot of mono black.
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Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I hope you see that these are two different things entirely. Duress and Despise aren't really cards I'd want to mainboard, because they often miss in certain matchups. That puts you behind on card advantage. Not having a manadork or a 3-drop to capitalize on it puts you behind on a different axis.
Green decks were very consistent in putting a 3-drop on the battlefield on turn two, because of OUaT. This was reflected in the meta (tons of green based aggro decks). Thoughtseize is played in mono-black aggro and Golgari lands, both of which have been hit by last monday's bans in another way. Let's just await what the new tier one decks will be.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn