I hope you see that these are two different things entirely.
They are and they aren't at the same time. As for power of play, yes they are coming at different angles, but that isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to straight variance/luck.
Increasing variance (by reducing consistency) by banning a green card would be the same as banning a black card (Thoughtseize) which would increase the variance of a black deck. Thoughseize is a guaranteed hit on turn 1 or 2. There is ZERO variance when it is played. No luck involved. And nearly no skill involved as well. People aren't going to hold all land hands. You hit a card and it will always be the most important card. Its a shotgun blast that is guaranteed (ZERO variance) to pick apart a hand early game. Then on top of that it gives valuable information of what and how an opponent will be playing. I would like to see the increased variance of players making a choice between Despise and Duress. Now there is some real variance. Even a "whiff" isn't so, again knowing an opponents hand is HUGE in this game.
Killing OuaT reduces green variance by introducing inconsistency. A ban of TS would do the exact same thing, reduce black consistency and up variance. It can be argued that banning TS would be a far greater blow to black decks than OuaT to green. But that is another debate.
I hope I have conveyed my point and I am not trying to enflame. I am pleased as punch at the recent bans and I hoping they cut just a bit deeper soon. Just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The one problem here is that people wouldn't just mainboard Duress or Despise when Thoughseize is banned. These cards simply aren't that good in the mainboard. Thoughtseize being banned would just make black decks worse because they would have less efficient tools to attack the hand.
I hope you see that these are two different things entirely.
They are and they aren't at the same time. As for power of play, yes they are coming at different angles, but that isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to straight variance/luck.
Increasing variance (by reducing consistency) by banning a green card would be the same as banning a black card (Thoughtseize) which would increase the variance of a black deck. Thoughseize is a guaranteed hit on turn 1 or 2. There is ZERO variance when it is played. No luck involved. And nearly no skill involved as well. People aren't going to hold all land hands. You hit a card and it will always be the most important card. Its a shotgun blast that is guaranteed (ZERO variance) to pick apart a hand early game. Then on top of that it gives valuable information of what and how an opponent will be playing. I would like to see the increased variance of players making a choice between Despise and Duress. Now there is some real variance. Even a "whiff" isn't so, again knowing an opponents hand is HUGE in this game.
Killing OuaT reduces green variance by introducing inconsistency. A ban of TS would do the exact same thing, reduce black consistency and up variance. It can be argued that banning TS would be a far greater blow to black decks than OuaT to green. But that is another debate.
I hope I have conveyed my point and I am not trying to enflame. I am pleased as punch at the recent bans and I hoping they cut just a bit deeper soon. Just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
There are two problems here, though, in the Thoughtseize discussion. First, targeted discard isn't a skill-less play. It requires understanding of the board state, your opponent's deck, and your outs. Say you can TS on turn one and your opponent has Teferi, Time Raveler, Narset, Parter of Veils, and Search for Azcanta. Well, you can't kill enchantments in Black, so do you take Search? Are you relying on playing cards reactively? Do you take 3feri. Do you have card draw in hand? Do you take Narset? What if one of these cards is instead Oko, Thief of Crowns? What does the rest of your hands look like? What if you take 3feri, but Search let's then bin a land next turn and draw another one, anyway? TS isn't just cast and win. Many games have been thrown by choosing incorrectly. Secondly, as I eluded to, some cards Black has an astronomically difficult time dealing with. It's nice to not just auto fold to enchantments and artifacts. I'd also like to mention against burn or low-to-the-ground aggro TS might be helping them. What if I TS and all they have is Loxodon Smiter? Already happened to me a few times at my local LGS. Whiffing on discard is bad.
I see the meta shifting to Esper control a bit. Something of this nature could make players think a bit before netdecking on the bandwagon.
If we had access to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile I would drop TS off that list, but we don't. I would also then remove Looter Scooter, but again we don't have access to those PIVOTAL pieces of removal.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
White needs better removal printed into the format, what we have now which is basically mostly Declaration in Stone and conditional or sub par options.
It doesn't have to be on the level of Path but we need better options and preferably 1-mana ones (even things like Condemn/Oust would be appriciated).
Format also needs better Planeswalker removal or mass Planeswalker damage spells in more colors than just black as well.
Until that time Oko and 3feri need to eat a ban, after that they can come back.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I was actually surprised at the bans this week, thought it would take another week or two for Oko. Surprised on the Nexus of Fate one, I have only played against it once, it was annoying for sure. Oh well, I'm okay with it gone too. Overjoyed with the death of Oko. Hopefully Teferi will be next or something else out of UW control. (Keeps fingers crossed for Supreme Verdict)
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Ok, first thing: there won't be any bans until the 6th of January.
Secondly: if they would ban these 4 cards I don't think the format will be healthy. There will be no reason to play control, since you would be having difficulty with decks that go under (aggro) and decks that go over the top (ramp). Without thoughtseize it will be easier for decks like ramp to just completely go over the top of any deck that doesn't run counterspells, so the meta will be divided into counterspell tempodecks and ramp.
Without thoughtseize it will be easier for decks like ramp to just completely go over the top of any deck that doesn't run counterspells, so the meta will be divided into counterspell tempodecks and ramp.
Then its time to weaken black a bit and let them run Despise instead. Until we see Path or Bolt (or something new akin to these 2 cards), TS needs to be banned and I will not be convinced otherwise. Its overpowered, its oppressive and its an auto include in nearly every deck that runs B. My instinct says it might see a reprint coming in Theros Beyond Death and they will shelter it at all costs. (And in that case it will oppress Standard as well.)
It can come back once we see a Path or Bolt reprint/functional reprint.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Without thoughtseize it will be easier for decks like ramp to just completely go over the top of any deck that doesn't run counterspells, so the meta will be divided into counterspell tempodecks and ramp.
Then its time to weaken black a bit and let them run Despise instead. Until we see Path or Bolt (or something new akin to these 2 cards), TS needs to be banned and I will not be convinced otherwise. Its overpowered, its oppressive and its an auto include in nearly every deck that runs B. My instinct says it might see a reprint coming in Theros Beyond Death and they will shelter it at all costs. (And in that case it will oppress Standard as well.)
It can come back once we see a Path or Bolt reprint/functional reprint.
Again, Thoughtseize makes no sense to me as a ban. Disliking discard isn't a reason to ban something. Also, I don't understand the comparison to Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt. Discard and removal are two different beasts. Removal is often instant speed and requires the opponent to invest mana/a turn in a card. Without solid discard, some strategies won't have consistent counters. For instance, you can discard Teferi, Time Raveler or Supreme Verdict as solid options to answer those cards. Pioneer is stronger than Standard and it needs stronger answers. I think white does need a better cheap removal spell, but I'm not sure which one. Bolt will probably make back in some day, but I don't see how that relates to discard. I know some people don't like discard, but that's the nature of Magic. Each player has preferences. I dislike burn decks, but I understand they are a valid, fair strategy; and I'm okay they exist. I, myself, have always been a huge proponent for solid combo decks--decks that lose to strong discard effects, but they are a part of the game and I don't think Seize is a problem. More accurately, I think, the other discard options aren't good enough. Maybe if we had Inquisition of Kozilek I could see an avenue where discussions would take place, but for now I think it would be a huge error of judgment for it to be banned. Likewise, Supreme Verdict is a word choice to me. It's just Wrath of God that trades another colorless mana for uncounterability. Most aggro decks have no way of countering it, anyways, I don't think they should. It gives control an answer to blue tempo decks. It's a punch to the gut to try and stabilize against an aggro deck and they just pay a blue mana for Spell Pierce, effectively giving them an extra turn for a blue mana. Not to mention, if you want to you can play cards that give your team indestructible for a turn. Better, yet, don't overextend. Play threats worth killing and make them answer each one. Sweepers are much worse when they have to be used 1-for-1. Or use recursive threats that come back from the yard. There are ways around cards without having to ban everything. Banning cards like Veil and Oko make sense. Banning everything else needs to have a better reason.
Also, I don't understand the comparison to Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt.
In their most simplistic forms:
Bolt: one mana destroy <=3 toughness creature without protection or hexproof or <=3 loyalty planeswalker OR opponent loses 3 life.
Path: one mana exile ANY creature without hexproof/protection from white/monocolored/instants. Opponent goes up a land and jumps the curve on you.
THOUHGTSEIZE: one mana put ANY FREAKING CARD IN THE GAME (save a few outliers) into the graveyard. Lose 2 pitiful life.
It is WAY wider and far more powerful than ANY 1 cmc removal spell in the format. Denying the other colors their premiere one mana removal spell which are less narrow while this card exists isn't fair gameplay. I can't explain it any simpler than that.
As for not liking discard, I actually love it outside of this card in this format. Black needs to be taking a risk with their discard, not guaranteed an absolute grand slam every time up.
Until the red and white get an upgrade, TS needs to go.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Also, I don't understand the comparison to Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt.
In their most simplistic forms:
Bolt: one mana destroy <=3 toughness creature without protection or hexproof or <=3 loyalty planeswalker OR opponent loses 3 life.
Path: one mana exile ANY creature without hexproof/protection from white/monocolored/instants. Opponent goes up a land and jumps the curve on you.
THOUHGTSEIZE: one mana put ANY FREAKING CARD IN THE GAME (save a few outliers) into the graveyard. Lose 2 pitiful life.
It is WAY wider and far more powerful than ANY 1 cmc removal spell in the format. Denying the other colors their premiere one mana removal spell which are less narrow while this card exists isn't fair gameplay. I can't explain it any simpler than that.
As for not liking discard, I actually love it outside of this card in this format. Black needs to be taking a risk with their discard, not guaranteed an absolute grand slam every time up.
Until the red and white get an upgrade, TS needs to go.
We will have to agree to disagree and move along.
I agree that we can agree to disagree, but I want to say one more time (for others reading along) that discard != removal. With removal they have to invest mana and/or a turn into playing the card. With discard they don't. They aren't the same thing. If you pay 6 mana to drop a creature and I Path it, I'm up 5 mana and most likely a turn you spent casting that card. If I Thoughtseize that 6 drop, you're down a card.
I agree that we can agree to disagree, but I want to say one more time (for others reading along) that discard != removal. With removal they have to invest mana and/or a turn into playing the card. With discard they don't. They aren't the same thing. If you pay 6 mana to drop a creature and I Path it, I'm up 5 mana and most likely a turn you spent casting that card. If I Thoughtseize that 6 drop, you're down a card.
That much is true, and there is also the risk of topdecking Seize later in the game. The interaction with Teferi, Time Raveler is just dirty though. With a better Esper mana base that might become an issue.
I tell you what. We can keep Thoughtseize around if UW Control gets T3feri and Supreme Verdict banned. That deck has the most predictable and powerful playlines and is going to be 30% of the meta by January 6th. It needs a hard nerf.
I am so sick of
T1 Opt Insure your 56 card deck works properly
T2 Syncopate Counter your needed tempo spell
T3 Teferi Bounce your biggest threat
T4 Verdict wipe whatever you managed to wriggle past the earlier crap
T5 Big Teferi Soft lock the game from that point
Boring, predictable and too powerful for a host of other strategies. So yes kill T3feri and Verdict and everyone can Thoughtseize 'til the cows come home.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I agree that we can agree to disagree, but I want to say one more time (for others reading along) that discard != removal. With removal they have to invest mana and/or a turn into playing the card. With discard they don't. They aren't the same thing. If you pay 6 mana to drop a creature and I Path it, I'm up 5 mana and most likely a turn you spent casting that card. If I Thoughtseize that 6 drop, you're down a card.
That much is true, and there is also the risk of topdecking Seize later in the game. The interaction with Teferi, Time Raveler is just dirty though. With a better Esper mana base that might become an issue.
I was playing last Thursday and my opponent mulled to 5. I Thoughtseize turn 1 and the only seizable card my opponent had in his hand was Loxodon Smiter. Next turn, I sacrifice a Fabled Passage to push it, after taking 4 in the face. On my third turn I seize the opponent again and they only had Nullhide Ferox. While I was trying to find an answer, on my opponent's 4th turn, they played another Nullhide Ferox they had drawn. I died shortly after.
So one game out of a thousand, TS doesn't work as intended. Those are the ONLY two creatures that do that in the Pioneer format and your opponent obviously built the deck to run all 8 and get a "gotcha" moment. How did his/her deck fair against the rest of the field that night? Frankly that is a weak corner case example. I've said I'm okay with TS with a Teferi + Verdict ban or maybe even a Teferi + Dig ban. That is as much ground as I will cede.
I do appreciate the agree to disagree. I am probably coming off too harsh.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
They are and they aren't at the same time. As for power of play, yes they are coming at different angles, but that isn't what I was referring to. I was referring to straight variance/luck.
Increasing variance (by reducing consistency) by banning a green card would be the same as banning a black card (Thoughtseize) which would increase the variance of a black deck. Thoughseize is a guaranteed hit on turn 1 or 2. There is ZERO variance when it is played. No luck involved. And nearly no skill involved as well. People aren't going to hold all land hands. You hit a card and it will always be the most important card. Its a shotgun blast that is guaranteed (ZERO variance) to pick apart a hand early game. Then on top of that it gives valuable information of what and how an opponent will be playing. I would like to see the increased variance of players making a choice between Despise and Duress. Now there is some real variance. Even a "whiff" isn't so, again knowing an opponents hand is HUGE in this game.
Killing OuaT reduces green variance by introducing inconsistency. A ban of TS would do the exact same thing, reduce black consistency and up variance. It can be argued that banning TS would be a far greater blow to black decks than OuaT to green. But that is another debate.
I hope I have conveyed my point and I am not trying to enflame. I am pleased as punch at the recent bans and I hoping they cut just a bit deeper soon. Just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
There are two problems here, though, in the Thoughtseize discussion. First, targeted discard isn't a skill-less play. It requires understanding of the board state, your opponent's deck, and your outs. Say you can TS on turn one and your opponent has Teferi, Time Raveler, Narset, Parter of Veils, and Search for Azcanta. Well, you can't kill enchantments in Black, so do you take Search? Are you relying on playing cards reactively? Do you take 3feri. Do you have card draw in hand? Do you take Narset? What if one of these cards is instead Oko, Thief of Crowns? What does the rest of your hands look like? What if you take 3feri, but Search let's then bin a land next turn and draw another one, anyway? TS isn't just cast and win. Many games have been thrown by choosing incorrectly. Secondly, as I eluded to, some cards Black has an astronomically difficult time dealing with. It's nice to not just auto fold to enchantments and artifacts. I'd also like to mention against burn or low-to-the-ground aggro TS might be helping them. What if I TS and all they have is Loxodon Smiter? Already happened to me a few times at my local LGS. Whiffing on discard is bad.
What I would like to see if they would mention, we are monitoring certain cards and putting them on a watch list.
I would watch list:
Thoughtseize
Dig Through Time
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Teferi, Time Raveler
I see the meta shifting to Esper control a bit. Something of this nature could make players think a bit before netdecking on the bandwagon.
If we had access to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile I would drop TS off that list, but we don't. I would also then remove Looter Scooter, but again we don't have access to those PIVOTAL pieces of removal.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It doesn't have to be on the level of Path but we need better options and preferably 1-mana ones (even things like Condemn/Oust would be appriciated).
Until that time Oko and 3feri need to eat a ban, after that they can come back.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/december-16-2019-pioneer-banned-announcement
Banned:
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Nexus of Fate
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Teferi, Time Raveler See Oko
Thoughtseize Overpowered for the format at this time
Supreme Verdict if 3Feri or Dig don't eat a ban it is impossible to deal with
Dig Through Time Gives U and UW control far too easy card draw
I would be happy with any of those 4 to go and clean up the format a bit more. Yes I know I may be in the minority on these.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Secondly: if they would ban these 4 cards I don't think the format will be healthy. There will be no reason to play control, since you would be having difficulty with decks that go under (aggro) and decks that go over the top (ramp). Without thoughtseize it will be easier for decks like ramp to just completely go over the top of any deck that doesn't run counterspells, so the meta will be divided into counterspell tempodecks and ramp.
Thoughtseize? It would shock me to know it's even a passing thought with WotC.
I'd love to see Supreme Verdict go but I doubt it ever will.
I don't have any feeling about Dig Through Time. I wouldn't miss it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Then its time to weaken black a bit and let them run Despise instead. Until we see Path or Bolt (or something new akin to these 2 cards), TS needs to be banned and I will not be convinced otherwise. Its overpowered, its oppressive and its an auto include in nearly every deck that runs B. My instinct says it might see a reprint coming in Theros Beyond Death and they will shelter it at all costs. (And in that case it will oppress Standard as well.)
It can come back once we see a Path or Bolt reprint/functional reprint.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Again, Thoughtseize makes no sense to me as a ban. Disliking discard isn't a reason to ban something. Also, I don't understand the comparison to Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt. Discard and removal are two different beasts. Removal is often instant speed and requires the opponent to invest mana/a turn in a card. Without solid discard, some strategies won't have consistent counters. For instance, you can discard Teferi, Time Raveler or Supreme Verdict as solid options to answer those cards. Pioneer is stronger than Standard and it needs stronger answers. I think white does need a better cheap removal spell, but I'm not sure which one. Bolt will probably make back in some day, but I don't see how that relates to discard. I know some people don't like discard, but that's the nature of Magic. Each player has preferences. I dislike burn decks, but I understand they are a valid, fair strategy; and I'm okay they exist. I, myself, have always been a huge proponent for solid combo decks--decks that lose to strong discard effects, but they are a part of the game and I don't think Seize is a problem. More accurately, I think, the other discard options aren't good enough. Maybe if we had Inquisition of Kozilek I could see an avenue where discussions would take place, but for now I think it would be a huge error of judgment for it to be banned. Likewise, Supreme Verdict is a word choice to me. It's just Wrath of God that trades another colorless mana for uncounterability. Most aggro decks have no way of countering it, anyways, I don't think they should. It gives control an answer to blue tempo decks. It's a punch to the gut to try and stabilize against an aggro deck and they just pay a blue mana for Spell Pierce, effectively giving them an extra turn for a blue mana. Not to mention, if you want to you can play cards that give your team indestructible for a turn. Better, yet, don't overextend. Play threats worth killing and make them answer each one. Sweepers are much worse when they have to be used 1-for-1. Or use recursive threats that come back from the yard. There are ways around cards without having to ban everything. Banning cards like Veil and Oko make sense. Banning everything else needs to have a better reason.
In their most simplistic forms:
Bolt: one mana destroy <=3 toughness creature without protection or hexproof or <=3 loyalty planeswalker OR opponent loses 3 life.
Path: one mana exile ANY creature without hexproof/protection from white/monocolored/instants. Opponent goes up a land and jumps the curve on you.
THOUHGTSEIZE: one mana put ANY FREAKING CARD IN THE GAME (save a few outliers) into the graveyard. Lose 2 pitiful life.
It is WAY wider and far more powerful than ANY 1 cmc removal spell in the format. Denying the other colors their premiere one mana removal spell which are less narrow while this card exists isn't fair gameplay. I can't explain it any simpler than that.
As for not liking discard, I actually love it outside of this card in this format. Black needs to be taking a risk with their discard, not guaranteed an absolute grand slam every time up.
Until the red and white get an upgrade, TS needs to go.
We will have to agree to disagree and move along.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I agree that we can agree to disagree, but I want to say one more time (for others reading along) that discard != removal. With removal they have to invest mana and/or a turn into playing the card. With discard they don't. They aren't the same thing. If you pay 6 mana to drop a creature and I Path it, I'm up 5 mana and most likely a turn you spent casting that card. If I Thoughtseize that 6 drop, you're down a card.
That much is true, and there is also the risk of topdecking Seize later in the game. The interaction with Teferi, Time Raveler is just dirty though. With a better Esper mana base that might become an issue.
I am so sick of
T1 Opt Insure your 56 card deck works properly
T2 Syncopate Counter your needed tempo spell
T3 Teferi Bounce your biggest threat
T4 Verdict wipe whatever you managed to wriggle past the earlier crap
T5 Big Teferi Soft lock the game from that point
Boring, predictable and too powerful for a host of other strategies. So yes kill T3feri and Verdict and everyone can Thoughtseize 'til the cows come home.
Then ban Dig Through Time for good measure.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I was playing last Thursday and my opponent mulled to 5. I Thoughtseize turn 1 and the only seizable card my opponent had in his hand was Loxodon Smiter. Next turn, I sacrifice a Fabled Passage to push it, after taking 4 in the face. On my third turn I seize the opponent again and they only had Nullhide Ferox. While I was trying to find an answer, on my opponent's 4th turn, they played another Nullhide Ferox they had drawn. I died shortly after.
I do appreciate the agree to disagree. I am probably coming off too harsh.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
2/3 of a lightning bolt. In a format where wild slash is a thing, Shocklands are the best mana, and pain lands see play, that ain’t nothing.
I see Thoughtseize as a card that keeps degenerate things from getting out of hand and has a place in the format. Opinions and results may vary.