Yeah I'm excited to shake up modern with Heliod in a Devoted Druid shell with Kitchen Finks and Spike Feeder. The Heliod Ballista combo is just one piece in a deck like that. If they answer it, you follow up with another combo. Pioneer just doesn't have that combo redundancy.
It (one of the combo pieces) will need a ban at some point, mark my words. Pooh pooh all you want.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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(boombox_smk):
This is not the place to post a video of you opening packs, and please do not create an account just to promote your youtube channel.
Nice and thanks for sharing but what exactly do pack openings have to do with Banned List speculation?
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
To get back on topic: I don't think Heliod has broken Pioneer. Honestly I do not expect to see it at MF Brussels next weekend. Do any of you still think it needs a ban anytime soon?
Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista has not seemed great in the matches I've played against it with various decks. If you have no interaction in the first few turns, that's on you, but let's say you drop Heliod on turn 3, it does literally nothing. Then you drop a 2/2 Ballista on turn 4, you need 1W more mana to activate the lifelink. That's turn 5. I mean what have you been doing the whole games so far? Even if you drop a 1 or 2 drop to be able to give Ballista lifelink on turn 4, that means you've needed 3 specific cards to pull of the combo. If anything, I think the London mulligan should be banned in this situation, lol. With any amount of disruption this combo falls apart. I don't think its all that great. I've played a number of matches against it and had success with all of them only losing 3 games out around 20 played with/without sideboard. Obviously discard is great against it Thoughtseize, Atarka's Command has a mode to combat it, I been playing a singleton Erebos, God of the Dead in my sideboards which stops it. In red, Skullcrack, Rampaging Ferocidon, and Tibalt, Rakish Instigator all stop it, as well. Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass both stop Walking Ballista, as does Karn, the Great Creator. In my White-based decks, a copy of Deicide is often enough, as you can exile all of their Heliod's for 1W at instant speed. Erase even stops it for 1 mana. Obviously in blue you have counter magic.
As you can tell by reading any of my posts in these types of threads, I am all for solving problematic interactions through intelligent side boarding, better deck building, and allowing the meta to keep itself in check, whenever possible. There are numerous answer across an array of colors, many even main-deckable. My take: the combo is fine, prepare for it. It's inconsistent and slow enough that the meta will most likely keep it under wraps, and you might lose to it every few tournaments because you didn't sideboard it, but that's how decks like Bogles win in Modern, you forgot they existed and get a random loss. Such is life.
The combo will pick up steam over time. Currently Heliod is like 23 tix online a copy. That is a lot of $$$ for an e-card. Ballista is around 13 tix currently as well. If the prices come down online, the play of it will go up. I have seen the combo once so far and was lucky enough to be playing red to remove Ballista. Play of the combo will increase with time. It will become a problem at some point. That point isnt now yet.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The combo will pick up steam over time. Currently Heliod is like 23 tix online a copy. That is a lot of $$$ for an e-card. Ballista is around 13 tix currently as well. If the prices come down online, the play of it will go up. I have seen the combo once so far and was lucky enough to be playing red to remove Ballista. Play of the combo will increase with time. It will become a problem at some point. That point isnt now yet.
My personal experience is that it's very easy to disrupt. It's easier to get online in modern, and it still probably won't be a huge deal there, either. It's got a lot of hype, but we'll see after the first high profile events. If pros aren't playing, most other people won't, either. Everyone just likes to play what the pros do.
Heliod is expensive because it's hyped up, and even though it's hyped up you don't see it that often. As Boombox said, the pro's aren't too impressed with it.
Underworld Breach has had a bigger inpact so far. Lotus Field decks are now faster, more consistent, less dependant on Lotus Fields and easier to play, at the cost of relying more heavily on the graveyard. I'm not calling for a ban right now, but I think this is one to watch out for.
Edit:
Just to be clear, I don't expect Underworld Breach to be banned if the deck is problematic. They would ban Lotus Field.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
From WotC on their homesite on Pioneer Pro Tour Brussels:
Adding a second and cheaper win condition has turned the deck from meme to monster. 12.2% of all competitors in Brussels registered Inverter of Truth, but 33.3% of MPL members in attendance did.
So a third of this competitive tourney is on that deck. Yeah, that's healthy. :sarcasm:
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Pioneer should be on a 2 week ban schedule as well. Even if it doesn't ban something every 2 weeks it lets it handle situations that pop up quickly, like this deck has.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Zzzz... You're really into this topic too much. And constantly whining about every card, every deck. Am I the only one being bored by your constant flow of reactions ?
The Pioneer forum is dead in terms of deckbuilding, the only thing I see when I come check out over here is you complaining. This is a sad statement.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
And complaining about my complaining is somehow better?
Just put me on ignore and you won't have to read my posts. It works great I have several on already and another to add now.
Insta-win combos like Splinter Twin in Modern and this one are not healthy for a format. I will be proven correct eventually as everyone else catches up. And no, I will keep posting what I wish. Just don't expect to see me respond once I put you on the ignore list.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Dig should go and I'd get Thassa's Oracle over Inverter, as it's likely do to problematic stuff as more and more stuff gets added to Standard.
I will be jamming the Inverter combo in my Sultai dredgreless; it does not really mesh with what the deck wants to do, but if I can just do "Woops I win" and get more store credit or $, I'm ok with that.
Lotus Field is fine. You can deal with it with Damping Sphere, the new equip + Assassin's Trophy or Field of Ruin, etc.
It's a combo deck, but it is fair as far as this format goes.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
PS: Dig Through Time needs to go, something from Inverter and Lotus Breach each needs nerfed as well. Combo should have a presence but not be the top 2 premier decks.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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Yeah I'm excited to shake up modern with Heliod in a Devoted Druid shell with Kitchen Finks and Spike Feeder. The Heliod Ballista combo is just one piece in a deck like that. If they answer it, you follow up with another combo. Pioneer just doesn't have that combo redundancy.
Have you?
It (one of the combo pieces) will need a ban at some point, mark my words. Pooh pooh all you want.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Maybe give arguments instead of whatever this is supposed to be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtXQyPPqLcQ&t=299s
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
As you can tell by reading any of my posts in these types of threads, I am all for solving problematic interactions through intelligent side boarding, better deck building, and allowing the meta to keep itself in check, whenever possible. There are numerous answer across an array of colors, many even main-deckable. My take: the combo is fine, prepare for it. It's inconsistent and slow enough that the meta will most likely keep it under wraps, and you might lose to it every few tournaments because you didn't sideboard it, but that's how decks like Bogles win in Modern, you forgot they existed and get a random loss. Such is life.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
My personal experience is that it's very easy to disrupt. It's easier to get online in modern, and it still probably won't be a huge deal there, either. It's got a lot of hype, but we'll see after the first high profile events. If pros aren't playing, most other people won't, either. Everyone just likes to play what the pros do.
Underworld Breach has had a bigger inpact so far. Lotus Field decks are now faster, more consistent, less dependant on Lotus Fields and easier to play, at the cost of relying more heavily on the graveyard. I'm not calling for a ban right now, but I think this is one to watch out for.
Edit:
Just to be clear, I don't expect Underworld Breach to be banned if the deck is problematic. They would ban Lotus Field.
That is the honest truth right there.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Dig Through Time This needs to go, period.
Teferi, Time Raveler Needs to go if DTT does not get a ban.
Watchlist:
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx Can lead to stupid explosive starts in Mono G, way off curve.
Heliod, Sun-Crowned If the combo starts to pop up more.
Dimir Inverter of Truth deck: No shut down interaction or counter? Lose on Turn 5.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
So you think Inverter of Truth is one to watch out for, but Lotus Field is a-ok?
So a third of this competitive tourney is on that deck. Yeah, that's healthy. :sarcasm:
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/players-tour-nagoya-top-8-decks
5 of the top 8. Some real diversity there.
Pioneer should be on a 2 week ban schedule as well. Even if it doesn't ban something every 2 weeks it lets it handle situations that pop up quickly, like this deck has.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The Pioneer forum is dead in terms of deckbuilding, the only thing I see when I come check out over here is you complaining. This is a sad statement.
Just put me on ignore and you won't have to read my posts. It works great I have several on already and another to add now.
Insta-win combos like Splinter Twin in Modern and this one are not healthy for a format. I will be proven correct eventually as everyone else catches up. And no, I will keep posting what I wish. Just don't expect to see me respond once I put you on the ignore list.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I will be jamming the Inverter combo in my Sultai dredgreless; it does not really mesh with what the deck wants to do, but if I can just do "Woops I win" and get more store credit or $, I'm ok with that.
Lotus Field is fine. You can deal with it with Damping Sphere, the new equip + Assassin's Trophy or Field of Ruin, etc.
It's a combo deck, but it is fair as far as this format goes.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/brewer-s-minute-beating-inverter
14.3% of the meta right now.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/pioneer#paper
Stay tuned.
PS: Dig Through Time needs to go, something from Inverter and Lotus Breach each needs nerfed as well. Combo should have a presence but not be the top 2 premier decks.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."