With regards to Peasant TurboFog, is the potential tutor package enabled by Enlightened Tutor enough to justify a UW or UWg build? (something a long the lines of 2*Enlightened Tutor, SDT, Sceptre, Sunstone). They also fetch our enchantments, too.
You don't, really. I think perhaps the best way to do it would be to follow Drimet's build (post #52) by concentrating more on mill than fogs. There just haven't been enough good fogs printed in the past few years to have it be efficient enough like Classic TurboFog (especially with the loss of Moment's Peace).
You don't, really. I think perhaps the best way to do it would be to follow Drimet's build (post #52) by concentrating more on mill than fogs. There just haven't been enough good fogs printed in the past few years to have it be efficient enough like Classic TurboFog (especially with the loss of Moment's Peace).
So would this primer be for something like "legacy pauper"? It's so hard to make the distinction sometimes.
So would this primer be for something like "legacy pauper"? It's so hard to make the distinction sometimes.
This entire forum and its sub-forums are for the "Casual" format meaning that anything goes unless otherwise specified. So if someone doesn't mention that this deck needs to be for Modern Pauper or Vintage Pauper then just assume that anything is legal and they're no ban lists.
All of the primers that are posted here and for that most part all threads pertain to the "Casual" format so if you need a deck created within a specific format just ask in the existing primer thread or start a new one if a deck or idea is different then say "White Weenie" or "Turbo-Fog" threads.
So if someone doesn't mention that this deck needs to be for Modern Pauper or Vintage Pauper then just assume that anything is legal and they're no ban lists.
So would this primer be for something like "legacy pauper"? It's so hard to make the distinction sometimes.
There's no such thing as "Legacy" Pauper. Those are two different formats. One follows very specific banned cards, and the other excludes other rarities than common entirely. Gush is banned in Legacy but legal in Pauper, for example. The only other Pauper styles are the ones that restrict the card pool further than it already is, Modern and Standard Pauper.
This is for people who choose to follow MtG Online bannings. There are no sanctioned paper tournaments, so there is no official paper ban list. I would say that most people tend to obey these bannings, however.
Incorrect, just as what Obermeir stated those cards are part of the official Pauper Magic Online banned list NOT for paper Pauper. Some people tend to follow the Pauper Magic Online ban list and that is fine, but speaking strictly to the paper format their just flat out isn't an official ban list at all because this isn't an official paper format so anything is playable unless otherwise stated.
Prosperity is the clear winner, it is cheaper and if we need cards we might as-well just draw a bunch because one card for both players doesn't change our personal situation that much. Turbo-Fog needs a handful of fogs and draw to be useful so for the cost Prosperity first.
Although using Brainstorm has the huge advantage of triggering Jace's Erasure multiple times, I think that including the fetch lands like Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse is too big a drawback, because of their coming into play tapped. I don't know if you saw the video posted by someone a little earlier in this thread, but his first match was lost because his forest entered tapped. My version with a simple 11 Islands and 9 Forests works perfectly for me, as being mana screwed is extremely rare in a deck with so much draw power.
Basically, the disadvantage of lands coming into play tapped is much greater than the benefit of milling 2 extra cards from Erasure. Ponder's shuffling effect is just too important to use Brainstorm in its place, in my opinion. Many people use Brainstorm\ fetches, and it works for them. I just don't think it's ideal.
I will mention, however, that using these lands + Brainstorm is an excellent idea when splashing for other colours. If you're going to use those lands anyways, might as well run brainstorm.
Not that I know of. It could be a solid side-strategy to a tempo deck. I think, however, that there aren't enough flicker effects for this to be viable as a full on Fog deck. You would need multiple copies of the Dignitary and Flicker in order for the deck to function consistently and to fight hate.
By not playing creatures, Turbo Fog blanks removal in a lot of different decks. It's part of what makes it so solid.
I do most of my pauper online, though it's just for fun largely because I don't have the time to play 8-mans or PE's very much at all. But this list has been very successful for me in one-off matches.
Of course I don't have the option of all of the green fogs, so I've eliminated green entirely except for the four Moment's Peace. This is about the next best thing to having a two-color deck, and with the full set of fetchlands, it's just never a problem to have the colors I need. The worst is having transmute mana for Muddle the Mixture, but even that isn't too much to ask most of the time.
I have not had a problem with the fetchlands basically being CIPT. Fogs can reasonably start on turn 3 or so while leaving up the mana for card draw, and there aren't many decks that can kill that fast anymore.
Since I am using the fetchlands, I'm using Brainstorm over Ponder. I also use Vision Skeins and Words of Wisdom instead of some of the more expensive draw spells, like X spells and Deep Analysis (which I tried but didn't like) because I play this deck in a very low-mana sort of way. Seldom do I have more than six lands out, since it's enough and since I'm happy to pitch any others to Oona's Grace. I do like that card a lot, by the way, and I added a second copy because I'm never unhappy to have one available.
The sideboard is unusual for me in that I seldom carry extra copies of cards in the sideboard, but I do it with both Muddle the Mixture and Arcane Denial here. This is in large part because of Burn, which sees plenty of play online. All I want then are counters, and 10 fogs (the ones which aren't Dawn Charm, which is nearly as good as a Counterspell against them) can come out, leaving plenty of space. Even with the CoP:R in there, the counters are necessary for Flaring Pain, which they'll have in post-board if they're paying any attention at all.
The O-Rings are for Sparksmith and Ulamog's Crusher, basically. Capsize is one that I'm thinking about replacing. When it's good, it's really good, but it's not really good often enough to justify costing 6 mana (basically) in a deck where I don't have anything that costs more than 3 even post-board.
Sparksmith only deals damage to creatures and to its controller, so nothing to worry about there! Although something as seemingly harmless as a Goblin Fireslinger can end up dealing the lethal blow.
White adds a lot of good things to the deck, and I'm really glad it's working for you! Please let us know how you do if ever you join a PE or 8-man! I'd love to hear about it.
Alright, I'm an idiot on the Sparksmith thing. You can see what I think about playing goblins. That I don't.
I do like the idea of Moment of Silence, but more because it gives me a little time in game one. Might still not be enough time, but at least it's something. I still want to have a more permanent solution in there though for post-board, because I don't want to have to depend on having multiples just to gain two turns' reprieve. But I do think I'm going to take your suggestion for the main deck.
As for burn...yeah, it's difficult, almost unwinnable in game one because you have so many dead cards. Post board, after boarding in no less than 11 cards, it's much more manageable. I feel good about the matchup, because once the CoP goes down their only possible response is Flaring Pain, and I should have enough counters to deal with that even through the flashback (they probably don't have more than two copies).
OH you definitely should still have an answer for Crusher post board, but what I'm saying is that Moment of Silence actually stops the annihilator trigger as opposed to a Holy Day. That extra turn with your permanents might just give you the time you need to win.
Okay, good to know that the sideboard plan is very effective! I imagine that even if they get a free turn with Flaring Pain, that single turn probably still isn't enough to kill (assuming you spent a couple counters on burn spells to slow him down).
How do you find your chances against Delver with the tri-colour version? My matchup versus them is pretty abysmal, and I don't see that changing all that much here either, although I can only hope!
Very interesting to see a pure U/W deck! I really don't think you're using enough fogs to get through. Frankly, I'm surprised the deck works on so few. Considering that even with Moment's Peace, I still have 2 more fogs than you, it's quite a difference. I suppose having 4 Brainstorms and Preordains helps you find the Fogs you need. Excellent! If that much draw power is working for you, then by all means, keep it up!
What I would do to change your deck mostly involves the mana base. I would remove the Guildgates and the cycling lands, cut to 20 lands and add a Oona's Grace. This will allow you to filter through any of your excess lands, rather than only some.
Could I convince you to take out 2 Preordains in exchange for more Fogs? I think it might help. Safe Passage is an interesting option because it blocks non-combat damage dealt to you, which means it's also good against Burn.
I'm sure it works really well when you resolve it! It's just such a shock to me that blue creatures have gotten so prevalent and powerful that what was once a nearly useless card is being run with good reason.
a single copy of Grace works wonders, at very little cost in deck space. 21 lands is a reasonable amount. If you feel more comfortable with that number, go for it! You gotta have a way to filter lands later on though, whether it's cycling lands or Grace or Brainstorm/ fetches.
Tangle has been printed as a common in Vintage Masters! This is very good for the online players playing Turbo Fog, as they just got a better copy of Spore Cloud. Yay!
It's also good for paper players who's group allows rarities from online expansions to count as commons!
I have nearly a monthly paper Pauper champ here.... played with FOG 3 times, UG list
champ 1 - 8 players: learning the deck... placed on 7th
champ 2 - 9 players: Almost perfect. placed on 2nd (lost the final to a Urza's land + ulamog deck you know...)
champ 3 - 13 players: Placed on 9th. Win a goblin, but lost to the Ulamog deck, a burn and draw with another burn
I'm changing to the UWG version, seems more reliable and Dawn Charm counter effect can help a lot. I can let only white mana open and perform a "counterspell" as a surprise.
Also the Moment of Silence may help against ulamog. Let´s see next month...
=========================
Great thread, the best place on internet about pauper turbofog
Thanks for sharing your results! I'm always happy to hear that someone other than myself is playing the deck. Unfortunately for me, my playgroup has since adapted perfectly to the deck, and I haven't been doing as well because of their small tweaks and sideboarding.
Is Burn a common deck played in these tournaments? If so, I wouldn't advise playing TurboFog at all! If not, than going UWG is probably the way to go, as you stand a much better chance against them. If you need any help with the numbers or card choices, don't hesitate to post your deck here and we'll gladly help you out! That Dawn Charm is also great against Corrupt, which has a huge impact on the game.
Thank you for the compliment! I try my best to put all the relevant information about the archetype in one convenient place.
I do not find play against burn a problem at all.... I lost the first because I played wrong... on UG, side out all cards which make the opponent buy too, side in all life gain... once opponent's hand is empty is easy to manage. A erasure with Quiet Disrepair for some turns do the work. He will try to destroy the Erasure with red elemental. Normally using Keldon Marauders to attack and when you use some fog, he uses some card "damage can't be prevented" to catch a counter... then without mana to counter, we receive an red elemental on erasure...
But at all I think it's 50/50 with burn.
With UWG, the CoP:Red will do all the work.
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UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
My lame attempt at humor...
Why does everyone in Bant hate the Lord of Riots? 'Cause they're all, Rakdos-intolerant! Awwww, yeah...
You don't, really. I think perhaps the best way to do it would be to follow Drimet's build (post #52) by concentrating more on mill than fogs. There just haven't been enough good fogs printed in the past few years to have it be efficient enough like Classic TurboFog (especially with the loss of Moment's Peace).
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
So would this primer be for something like "legacy pauper"? It's so hard to make the distinction sometimes.
Unspecified Pauper = Legacy Pauper
[Pauper Cube] - Heisen's Travel Cube || [Cube] - USAstrat's Cube
[EDH] - Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind || [Modern] - Grixis Kiln
This entire forum and its sub-forums are for the "Casual" format meaning that anything goes unless otherwise specified. So if someone doesn't mention that this deck needs to be for Modern Pauper or Vintage Pauper then just assume that anything is legal and they're no ban lists.
All of the primers that are posted here and for that most part all threads pertain to the "Casual" format so if you need a deck created within a specific format just ask in the existing primer thread or start a new one if a deck or idea is different then say "White Weenie" or "Turbo-Fog" threads.
W White Weenie
Except these:
[Pauper Cube] - Heisen's Travel Cube || [Cube] - USAstrat's Cube
[EDH] - Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind || [Modern] - Grixis Kiln
There's no such thing as "Legacy" Pauper. Those are two different formats. One follows very specific banned cards, and the other excludes other rarities than common entirely. Gush is banned in Legacy but legal in Pauper, for example. The only other Pauper styles are the ones that restrict the card pool further than it already is, Modern and Standard Pauper.
This is for people who choose to follow MtG Online bannings. There are no sanctioned paper tournaments, so there is no official paper ban list. I would say that most people tend to obey these bannings, however.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Incorrect, just as what Obermeir stated those cards are part of the official Pauper Magic Online banned list NOT for paper Pauper. Some people tend to follow the Pauper Magic Online ban list and that is fine, but speaking strictly to the paper format their just flat out isn't an official ban list at all because this isn't an official paper format so anything is playable unless otherwise stated.
W White Weenie
Also added Prosperity to the Peasant section. What's better, that or Skyscribing?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Prosperity is the clear winner, it is cheaper and if we need cards we might as-well just draw a bunch because one card for both players doesn't change our personal situation that much. Turbo-Fog needs a handful of fogs and draw to be useful so for the cost Prosperity first.
W White Weenie
Although using Brainstorm has the huge advantage of triggering Jace's Erasure multiple times, I think that including the fetch lands like Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse is too big a drawback, because of their coming into play tapped. I don't know if you saw the video posted by someone a little earlier in this thread, but his first match was lost because his forest entered tapped. My version with a simple 11 Islands and 9 Forests works perfectly for me, as being mana screwed is extremely rare in a deck with so much draw power.
Basically, the disadvantage of lands coming into play tapped is much greater than the benefit of milling 2 extra cards from Erasure. Ponder's shuffling effect is just too important to use Brainstorm in its place, in my opinion. Many people use Brainstorm\ fetches, and it works for them. I just don't think it's ideal.
I will mention, however, that using these lands + Brainstorm is an excellent idea when splashing for other colours. If you're going to use those lands anyways, might as well run brainstorm.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
By not playing creatures, Turbo Fog blanks removal in a lot of different decks. It's part of what makes it so solid.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Forest
7 Island
5 Plains
4 Terramorphic Expanse
Fogs (14)
4 Ethereal Haze
2 Holy Day
4 Dawn Charm
4 Moment's Peace
4 Brainstorm
4 Vision Skeins
4 Words of Wisdom
2 Compulsive Research
2 Oona's Grace
Counters (4)
2 Arcane Denial
2 Muddle the Mixture
Mill (4)
4 Jace's Erasure
2 Arcane Denial
1 Capsize
4 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Counterspell
2 Muddle the Mixture
3 Oblivion Ring
Of course I don't have the option of all of the green fogs, so I've eliminated green entirely except for the four Moment's Peace. This is about the next best thing to having a two-color deck, and with the full set of fetchlands, it's just never a problem to have the colors I need. The worst is having transmute mana for Muddle the Mixture, but even that isn't too much to ask most of the time.
I have not had a problem with the fetchlands basically being CIPT. Fogs can reasonably start on turn 3 or so while leaving up the mana for card draw, and there aren't many decks that can kill that fast anymore.
Since I am using the fetchlands, I'm using Brainstorm over Ponder. I also use Vision Skeins and Words of Wisdom instead of some of the more expensive draw spells, like X spells and Deep Analysis (which I tried but didn't like) because I play this deck in a very low-mana sort of way. Seldom do I have more than six lands out, since it's enough and since I'm happy to pitch any others to Oona's Grace. I do like that card a lot, by the way, and I added a second copy because I'm never unhappy to have one available.
The sideboard is unusual for me in that I seldom carry extra copies of cards in the sideboard, but I do it with both Muddle the Mixture and Arcane Denial here. This is in large part because of Burn, which sees plenty of play online. All I want then are counters, and 10 fogs (the ones which aren't Dawn Charm, which is nearly as good as a Counterspell against them) can come out, leaving plenty of space. Even with the CoP:R in there, the counters are necessary for Flaring Pain, which they'll have in post-board if they're paying any attention at all.
The O-Rings are for Sparksmith and Ulamog's Crusher, basically. Capsize is one that I'm thinking about replacing. When it's good, it's really good, but it's not really good often enough to justify costing 6 mana (basically) in a deck where I don't have anything that costs more than 3 even post-board.
GBW Melira Pod WBG
BW Tokens WB
How is the game againt Burn for you? Is it still difficult? CoP: Red is such a blowout for them, and fetching it with Muddle is easy.
A definite improvement would be to use Moment of Silence rather than Holy Day. It stops Ulamog's Crushers' annihilator from triggering, which is very helpful. You could probably go 4 Moment of Silence, 2 Ethereal Haze.
Sparksmith only deals damage to creatures and to its controller, so nothing to worry about there! Although something as seemingly harmless as a Goblin Fireslinger can end up dealing the lethal blow.
White adds a lot of good things to the deck, and I'm really glad it's working for you! Please let us know how you do if ever you join a PE or 8-man! I'd love to hear about it.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I do like the idea of Moment of Silence, but more because it gives me a little time in game one. Might still not be enough time, but at least it's something. I still want to have a more permanent solution in there though for post-board, because I don't want to have to depend on having multiples just to gain two turns' reprieve. But I do think I'm going to take your suggestion for the main deck.
As for burn...yeah, it's difficult, almost unwinnable in game one because you have so many dead cards. Post board, after boarding in no less than 11 cards, it's much more manageable. I feel good about the matchup, because once the CoP goes down their only possible response is Flaring Pain, and I should have enough counters to deal with that even through the flashback (they probably don't have more than two copies).
GBW Melira Pod WBG
BW Tokens WB
Okay, good to know that the sideboard plan is very effective! I imagine that even if they get a free turn with Flaring Pain, that single turn probably still isn't enough to kill (assuming you spent a couple counters on burn spells to slow him down).
How do you find your chances against Delver with the tri-colour version? My matchup versus them is pretty abysmal, and I don't see that changing all that much here either, although I can only hope!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Very interesting to see a pure U/W deck! I really don't think you're using enough fogs to get through. Frankly, I'm surprised the deck works on so few. Considering that even with Moment's Peace, I still have 2 more fogs than you, it's quite a difference. I suppose having 4 Brainstorms and Preordains helps you find the Fogs you need. Excellent! If that much draw power is working for you, then by all means, keep it up!
What I would do to change your deck mostly involves the mana base. I would remove the Guildgates and the cycling lands, cut to 20 lands and add a Oona's Grace. This will allow you to filter through any of your excess lands, rather than only some.
Could I convince you to take out 2 Preordains in exchange for more Fogs? I think it might help. Safe Passage is an interesting option because it blocks non-combat damage dealt to you, which means it's also good against Burn.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
a single copy of Grace works wonders, at very little cost in deck space. 21 lands is a reasonable amount. If you feel more comfortable with that number, go for it! You gotta have a way to filter lands later on though, whether it's cycling lands or Grace or Brainstorm/ fetches.
Tangle has been printed as a common in Vintage Masters! This is very good for the online players playing Turbo Fog, as they just got a better copy of Spore Cloud. Yay!
It's also good for paper players who's group allows rarities from online expansions to count as commons!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
champ 1 - 8 players: learning the deck... placed on 7th
champ 2 - 9 players: Almost perfect. placed on 2nd (lost the final to a Urza's land + ulamog deck you know...)
champ 3 - 13 players: Placed on 9th. Win a goblin, but lost to the Ulamog deck, a burn and draw with another burn
I'm changing to the UWG version, seems more reliable and Dawn Charm counter effect can help a lot. I can let only white mana open and perform a "counterspell" as a surprise.
Also the Moment of Silence may help against ulamog. Let´s see next month...
=========================
Great thread, the best place on internet about pauper turbofog
Is Burn a common deck played in these tournaments? If so, I wouldn't advise playing TurboFog at all! If not, than going UWG is probably the way to go, as you stand a much better chance against them. If you need any help with the numbers or card choices, don't hesitate to post your deck here and we'll gladly help you out! That Dawn Charm is also great against Corrupt, which has a huge impact on the game.
Thank you for the compliment! I try my best to put all the relevant information about the archetype in one convenient place.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
But at all I think it's 50/50 with burn.
With UWG, the CoP:Red will do all the work.