You know, I could see Burning Prohpet being good enough in tandem with Magma Jet to really take advantage of Thunderous Wrath miracles. Seems like a decent synergy for a card that would already work fairly well.
As for the comparison with Rakdos Control: Rakdos is probably just the better deck. Having access to good card advantage like Thorn of the Black Rose and Night's Whisper as well as discard really pushes the deck into something I would consider tier 1.5. Mono-Red is a great experiment in deck-building and has it's own advantage in being able to end the game more quickly, but that's about where it ends. Honestly, there wouldn't be too much of a downside to splashing other colours into the build to really improve it. I could see a Green, Black or Blue Splash easily to improve the deck. And this is incentivised even more since we're running Karoo lands already. But then we're not mono-Red Control anymore!
I really love burning prophet with thunderous wrath. I've been able to cast it fairly consistently for 1. I wouldn't go up to 3 because that would make it worse but I feel like we need more tech against MBC. I've been doing very well with the deck
recently but against MBC I'm something like 1 and 7
I was considering swirling sandstorm back in the sideboard since it's a much better late game sweeper than martyr and it might be handy in the longer MUs when we are a bit outclassed on the board.
Also thoughts on renaming the thread? How would we do it?
I think hireling is the only super relevant one but the question here is whether or not that makes the thunderous wrath/burning prophet synergy bad enough that we don't play it. Thoughts? I've really liked it in the past.
Desert is the #1 inclusion in this deck. In my testing in the past, this land really meant the difference in a lot of matchups.
I'm also considering playing Forked Bolt over Arc Lightning (not that I couldn't have done this before in paper, but the new changes still give me that new-card smell).
I tried Crown-Hunter Hireling for a while. While it provides good card advantage, it's not a win condition unless the opponent is consistently taking the crown from you.
Yeah, I'm grinding on MTGO right now. Desert makes the Delver matchups nearly unloseable. Hireling is good. It's not a win con, but card advantage
My current list for MTGO is here https://deckbox.org/sets/1919265 and I've been enjoying it a lot. I've abandoned the burn matchup to luck. No more Tanglebloom, I won't miss you. I'm running 2 extra Blasts in the board to help out with control/Tron, replacing 2 Electrickery. Also up to 4 Molten Rain to help as well. I'm interested in trying Smash to Smithereens over the Shamans at the moment, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile.
If I'm playing with Hireling, I'm cutting 2 Beetleback Chief and maybe one other card. I'm not sure if I want 2 or 3. If 2, I'll fit the third into the board. A 4/4 body is so massive, even if it has defender.
EDIT: Not super excited about Forked Bolt because it's a sorcery. I'm not planning on testing it out.
EDIT2: Also, Hireling is a wincon in my experience because it provides the burn to finish off your opponent while keeping the creatures down. If they're reliant on counterspells to stay alive, it lets you overwhelm those.
What matchups are you guys finding yourself winning by milling the opponent out? That's been my normal win con vs Delver a lot of the time. Having the Monarch will make you mill out first.
Tested out 10 Stone Rains for a sideboard plan and took it through a league, went 2-3. I still can't beat tron and it's driving me insane. I'm onto 4 Relic 6 Blasts 4 Molten Rain.
I actually read about your deck on Reddit and now that Crown Hunter Hireling will eventually be on MTGO I started thinking about it. Since Tron is rampant why not run something like this?
4 Molten Rain
4 Pillage
1 Stone Rain
3 Martyr of Ashes
4 Flurry of Horns
4 Pristine Talisman
4 Firebolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
3 Arc Lightning
4 Curse of the Pierced Heart
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Desert
13 Snow-Covered Mountain
Just reading through the thread, I never thought about flurry of horns. That actually kinda makes sense. Beefier. Why not make it a traditional Ponza? It would make the hireling better overall, could actually give tron fits since you just sit there and blow up the same tron land over and over. I saw you say that skred isn't as good as flame slash? Why?
Skred isn't as good as Flame Slash because Desert and Forgotten Cave are too good to cut, and running them makes Skred inefficient.
I actually was poking around with that Ponza plan. My original list ran 8 Stone Rains maindeck but they didn't do enough for me. I ended up with just 4 Molten Rain in the sideboard. I did mention my try with the 10 Stone Rain sideboard plan but that wasn't enough to stop Tron. Land Destruction doesn't work unless you're Mono Black, running 20+ LD spells. The deck is too good at drawing cards and therefore lands. I'm seriously struggling to figure out how to beat it right now. Sadly the meta isn't unhealty enough for anything to eat a ban, so we're stuck trying to beat Tron for the next while.
Sadly the meta isn't unhealty enough for anything to eat a ban, so we're stuck trying to beat Tron for the next while.
Don't be so sure. There could be "hope". Ghostly Flicker is unhealthy for the format in its degenerate combo with Mnemonic Wall/Archaeomancer/Stonehorn Dignitary. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a Moment's Peace ban down the road either. Keep your head up.
And yes about the only way to combat Tron in Red is to be blazingly fast. Unless you just want to go mono-red LD.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It's been a while, but some recent sets may have graced this archetypes with new cards to help cover some of it's weaknesses. My new decklist is a major facelift from my last iteration, so here it is:
Commander Legends gave us Fiery Cannonade which is now one of the best sweepers in the format. The instant speed is wonderful and can even counter Spellstutter Sprites. This was a no-brainer addition.
One weakness of the deck was the severe lack of card advantage, but we have two new Monarch cards available in Staunch Throneguard and Crimson Fleet Commodore. We previously only had Crown-Hunter Hireling but it left something to be desired. The new cards can survive a Cannonade, and I prefer Throneguard since it can attack and still block some midrange creatures favorably. Commodore has some good power, but bears can stop it from attacking.
Another new combo that helps the deck is the Cleansing Wildfire+Darksteel Citadel trick. It helps us ramp and replaces a card in hand. This feels very powerful and it gives the deck something to do early in the game. Wildfire also improves our Tron matchup by being in the maindeck to give us an edge post board.
Other considerations:
Boarding Party looks good, but I feel the Cascade has a chance to whiff depending on the opponent's board and if we've been doing a good job clearing the board. I will be testing it to see how it works out. It's already proved to proved to be a strong card in the format.
Bonder's Ornament can replace the Wildfire+Citadel combo for something that might be more consistent, but currently I can only try the deck on MTGO and the tix for it are too high for my wallet. I will definitely test it when I get the chance.
Another option I considered is incorporating some Madness cards like Fiery Temper and Reckless Wurm and use the newly downshifted Jalum Tome to gain some advantage. I might test that out sometime as well, but I'll have to make some considerable changes to fit that package in.
So far I've played a few games and this list has performed well! I anticipate it will still have issues against Burn and Tron (although I'm optimistic it'll fare better than before). What are your thought? Comments and criticism is always welcome and appreciated!
I'm personally a bit more in favour of Commodore than Throneguard since it doesn't die to artifact hate and the board is usually kept clear, making it a much faster win condition. I totally get wanting the 5 toughness creature, though, as it survives most burn spells.
Bonder's Ornament is basically the best card we could have in terms of card advantage, since it also ramps. Too bad about the price tag; I was lucky to open a copy from a random booster.
I'm glad you're testing out the wildfire/darksteel combo. Has it been paying off? It bet it's also fun to disrupt Tron in the maindeck!
I haven't actually faced any Tron decks yet, so the Wildfire hasn't paid off in that regard. The ramp has really helped and it has worked well against decks running the Ravnica/Karoo lands.
Newly updated list! I got some Commander Legends boosters on MTGO and pulled some big ticket cards, so I traded them in and was able to get a lot of pricey Pauper cards I was missing in my collection. This allowed me to add Bonder's Ornament and Boarding Party. I even got some Red Elemental Blasts to pump up the sideboard.
This deck has been performing really well in most matchups. My main issue has been anything that gains too much life, which I found when going up against some Angel Tribal decks that gain a lot of life and has high toughness creatures that fly which kills my board wipes. Burn is still tricky too, but I haven't been seeing it too much lately.
Cleansing Wildfire has been a great maindeck card with the Darksteel Citadel package. The current meta has some decks running very low to no amount of Basic Lands. It hurts Tron and gives us more power post board with Pillage. It also hits Affinity's lands well with Echoing Ruin and Pillage. Wildfire should see more play in red decks!
It was a fun match and it was great to finally play against you!
Bonder's Ornament seems to do much more for the deck than the Talismans at this point. Most losses with my old list were due to running out of gas and getting to top deck mode. Pristine Talisman can still be good if one can find the room to keep it in along with the Ornaments, but for now I haven't needed to bring them back.
I think Electrickery is just a hold over and I should switch it out for more Cannonades or something else entirely. I'll have to do some more in depth testing and take notes and see what I should do.
Skred still works well with the lower snow land count. Wildfire can help fetch more if needed. In most cases with the current meta I need 5 snow lands to get most threats, but Ulamog's Crusher could be a problem if I come across it.
I'd definitely like to see you pilot the deck at some point in the future if you feel it would be good content on your channel!
As for the comparison with Rakdos Control: Rakdos is probably just the better deck. Having access to good card advantage like Thorn of the Black Rose and Night's Whisper as well as discard really pushes the deck into something I would consider tier 1.5. Mono-Red is a great experiment in deck-building and has it's own advantage in being able to end the game more quickly, but that's about where it ends. Honestly, there wouldn't be too much of a downside to splashing other colours into the build to really improve it. I could see a Green, Black or Blue Splash easily to improve the deck. And this is incentivised even more since we're running Karoo lands already. But then we're not mono-Red Control anymore!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I really love burning prophet with thunderous wrath. I've been able to cast it fairly consistently for 1. I wouldn't go up to 3 because that would make it worse but I feel like we need more tech against MBC. I've been doing very well with the deck
recently but against MBC I'm something like 1 and 7
I was considering swirling sandstorm back in the sideboard since it's a much better late game sweeper than martyr and it might be handy in the longer MUs when we are a bit outclassed on the board.
Also thoughts on renaming the thread? How would we do it?
I'm also considering playing Forked Bolt over Arc Lightning (not that I couldn't have done this before in paper, but the new changes still give me that new-card smell).
I tried Crown-Hunter Hireling for a while. While it provides good card advantage, it's not a win condition unless the opponent is consistently taking the crown from you.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
My current list for MTGO is here https://deckbox.org/sets/1919265 and I've been enjoying it a lot. I've abandoned the burn matchup to luck. No more Tanglebloom, I won't miss you. I'm running 2 extra Blasts in the board to help out with control/Tron, replacing 2 Electrickery. Also up to 4 Molten Rain to help as well. I'm interested in trying Smash to Smithereens over the Shamans at the moment, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile.
If I'm playing with Hireling, I'm cutting 2 Beetleback Chief and maybe one other card. I'm not sure if I want 2 or 3. If 2, I'll fit the third into the board. A 4/4 body is so massive, even if it has defender.
EDIT: Not super excited about Forked Bolt because it's a sorcery. I'm not planning on testing it out.
EDIT2: Also, Hireling is a wincon in my experience because it provides the burn to finish off your opponent while keeping the creatures down. If they're reliant on counterspells to stay alive, it lets you overwhelm those.
What matchups are you guys finding yourself winning by milling the opponent out? That's been my normal win con vs Delver a lot of the time. Having the Monarch will make you mill out first.
Tested out 10 Stone Rains for a sideboard plan and took it through a league, went 2-3. I still can't beat tron and it's driving me insane. I'm onto 4 Relic 6 Blasts 4 Molten Rain.
https://clips.twitch.tv/StupidJazzySquirrelPeanutButterJellyTime I'm streaming now, and this is an excellent clip of a punt. Note: I won the game anyway, killed with damage and they have no cards in play, hand, or library. If you guys care to catch my streams, feel free to follow me https://www.twitch.tv/arsteel8
4 Molten Rain
4 Pillage
1 Stone Rain
3 Martyr of Ashes
4 Flurry of Horns
4 Pristine Talisman
4 Firebolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
3 Arc Lightning
4 Curse of the Pierced Heart
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Desert
13 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Stone Rain
3 Electrickery
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Pyroblast
3 Tanglebloom
Just reading through the thread, I never thought about flurry of horns. That actually kinda makes sense. Beefier. Why not make it a traditional Ponza? It would make the hireling better overall, could actually give tron fits since you just sit there and blow up the same tron land over and over. I saw you say that skred isn't as good as flame slash? Why?
I actually was poking around with that Ponza plan. My original list ran 8 Stone Rains maindeck but they didn't do enough for me. I ended up with just 4 Molten Rain in the sideboard. I did mention my try with the 10 Stone Rain sideboard plan but that wasn't enough to stop Tron. Land Destruction doesn't work unless you're Mono Black, running 20+ LD spells. The deck is too good at drawing cards and therefore lands. I'm seriously struggling to figure out how to beat it right now. Sadly the meta isn't unhealty enough for anything to eat a ban, so we're stuck trying to beat Tron for the next while.
Don't be so sure. There could be "hope". Ghostly Flicker is unhealthy for the format in its degenerate combo with Mnemonic Wall/Archaeomancer/Stonehorn Dignitary. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a Moment's Peace ban down the road either. Keep your head up.
And yes about the only way to combat Tron in Red is to be blazingly fast. Unless you just want to go mono-red LD.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Radiant Fountain
18x Snow-Covered Mountain
Sorcery
2x Flame Slash
4x Cleansing Wildfire
Instant
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Skred
3x Magma Jet
3x Fiery Cannonade
2x Staggershock
2x Thunderous Wrath
2x Crimson Fleet Commodore
4x Staunch Throneguard
Artifact/Enchantment
4x Curse of the Pierced Heart
2x Pristine Talisman
2x Electrickery
3x Echoing Ruin
4x Pillage
2x Swirling Sandstorm
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pristine Talisman
Commander Legends gave us Fiery Cannonade which is now one of the best sweepers in the format. The instant speed is wonderful and can even counter Spellstutter Sprites. This was a no-brainer addition.
One weakness of the deck was the severe lack of card advantage, but we have two new Monarch cards available in Staunch Throneguard and Crimson Fleet Commodore. We previously only had Crown-Hunter Hireling but it left something to be desired. The new cards can survive a Cannonade, and I prefer Throneguard since it can attack and still block some midrange creatures favorably. Commodore has some good power, but bears can stop it from attacking.
Another new combo that helps the deck is the Cleansing Wildfire+Darksteel Citadel trick. It helps us ramp and replaces a card in hand. This feels very powerful and it gives the deck something to do early in the game. Wildfire also improves our Tron matchup by being in the maindeck to give us an edge post board.
Other considerations:
Boarding Party looks good, but I feel the Cascade has a chance to whiff depending on the opponent's board and if we've been doing a good job clearing the board. I will be testing it to see how it works out. It's already proved to proved to be a strong card in the format.
Bonder's Ornament can replace the Wildfire+Citadel combo for something that might be more consistent, but currently I can only try the deck on MTGO and the tix for it are too high for my wallet. I will definitely test it when I get the chance.
Another option I considered is incorporating some Madness cards like Fiery Temper and Reckless Wurm and use the newly downshifted Jalum Tome to gain some advantage. I might test that out sometime as well, but I'll have to make some considerable changes to fit that package in.
So far I've played a few games and this list has performed well! I anticipate it will still have issues against Burn and Tron (although I'm optimistic it'll fare better than before). What are your thought? Comments and criticism is always welcome and appreciated!
I'm personally a bit more in favour of Commodore than Throneguard since it doesn't die to artifact hate and the board is usually kept clear, making it a much faster win condition. I totally get wanting the 5 toughness creature, though, as it survives most burn spells.
Bonder's Ornament is basically the best card we could have in terms of card advantage, since it also ramps. Too bad about the price tag; I was lucky to open a copy from a random booster.
I'm glad you're testing out the wildfire/darksteel combo. Has it been paying off? It bet it's also fun to disrupt Tron in the maindeck!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Radiant Fountain
18x Snow-Covered Mountain
Sorcery
2x Flame Slash
4x Cleansing Wildfire
Instant
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Skred
3x Magma Jet
3x Fiery Cannonade
2x Staggershock
2x Crimson Fleet Commodore
3x Staunch Throneguard
2x Boarding Party
Artifact/Enchantment
4x Curse of the Pierced Heart
3x Bonder's Ornament
2x Electrickery
3x Echoing Ruin
3x Pillage
2x Swirling Sandstorm
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Red Elemental Blast
This deck has been performing really well in most matchups. My main issue has been anything that gains too much life, which I found when going up against some Angel Tribal decks that gain a lot of life and has high toughness creatures that fly which kills my board wipes. Burn is still tricky too, but I haven't been seeing it too much lately.
Cleansing Wildfire has been a great maindeck card with the Darksteel Citadel package. The current meta has some decks running very low to no amount of Basic Lands. It hurts Tron and gives us more power post board with Pillage. It also hits Affinity's lands well with Echoing Ruin and Pillage. Wildfire should see more play in red decks!
I'm really happy that you got to upgrade your deck with Bonder's Ornaments! Do you think Pristine Talisman is not worth playing anymore?
Any reason why you're playing 2 Electrickery instead of having an extra copy of Fiery Cannonade for the sideboard?
Has Skred been performing well despite you running 18 snow lands?
I'm going to have to update my own list at some point and try this out. Looks like a lot of fun! Wildfire in this meta is crazy good.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Bonder's Ornament seems to do much more for the deck than the Talismans at this point. Most losses with my old list were due to running out of gas and getting to top deck mode. Pristine Talisman can still be good if one can find the room to keep it in along with the Ornaments, but for now I haven't needed to bring them back.
I think Electrickery is just a hold over and I should switch it out for more Cannonades or something else entirely. I'll have to do some more in depth testing and take notes and see what I should do.
Skred still works well with the lower snow land count. Wildfire can help fetch more if needed. In most cases with the current meta I need 5 snow lands to get most threats, but Ulamog's Crusher could be a problem if I come across it.
I'd definitely like to see you pilot the deck at some point in the future if you feel it would be good content on your channel!