Playing the devil's attorney on this subject, resistance to removal is important in some degree or else we wouldn't be discussing a 2 mana 1/1 creature... But yeah, we can't force the argument that much because if so we end up playing something as atrocious as the Hexproof deck.
Where the argument fails about Vault Skirge being preferable to Silhana Ledgewalker vs. UR Post is he's basing it on 2 things:
1) Silhana dies to Electrickery
2) Vault Skirge is more aggressive
The argument fails because:
1) Vault Skirge dies to Electrickery as well.
2) Vault Skirge is not "more aggressive." Sure it comes out on Turn 1. Silhana comes out on Turn 2. Both are 1/1s. If you think a 1/1 is going to get it done vs. UR post regardless of what turn it comes out on you're mistaken.
3) In addition to Electrickery, Vault Skirge dies to every other removal in the UR post deck.
4) Because of #2 both creatures need help in either Bonesplitter or Rancor to be a consistent threat that makes a difference. And because of #3 it is much easier to make Silhana a threat with these pump spells than it is to make Vault Skirge a threat and have it live long enough.
Silhana dies to 1-2 cards in their deck (Electrickery, assuming they play 1-2 maindeck, maybe more post-sideboard who knows). If you can't play around 2/60 cards, maybe we should be having a different discussion about why some people are just better off playing Momir where they don't have to worry about such things. Sure if you want to play Stompy like a burn deck vs. UR Post and try to throw up a high score and waste all your burn you're going to get blown out by Electrickery. But saying Silhana is bad against UR post is just blatantly incorrect.
Well then, I completely agree with you. I'm not a very experienced player of Stompy, but Silhana is awesome against Post, and I don't think anyone in their right mind should think that Skirge is better on this matchup...
Ledgewalker in my experience does not present a fast enough clock on it's own to beat any post variant consistently before they stabilize and they can answer it if they need to.
What I'm saying is Hexproof is not feeling like a big enough deal to play a 1G 1/1. Not saying anybody's wrong for playing her, just trying to workshop this deck...
I'd rather have Garruk's Companion against Post. Morbid Hunger on anything post will have a rough time dealing with, and I'd rather blank their Electrickery as much as possible, because they will bring it in against Stompy. If the only thing Electrickery hits is my Quirion Ranger, that makes it almost never a 2-for-1.
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I'll be honest, Electrickery and UR Post in general is really not my concern at the moment as a Stompy player. Sure sometimes they're going to draw those nut hands with double Flame Slash, Electrickery and Serrated Arrows. But their average hand is still amazingly awkward and anytime they're not leading off w/ a Mountain I feel like I'm way ahead. Electrickery is easy enough to play around but if UR Post does become a bigger player in the meta I will move away from 1-toughness guys as necessary.
I would note that if they are casting Mystical Teachings for stuff it means you're either way behind and they have the luxury to tap out or you're way ahead and they're desperately trying to search for an answer.
Does Giantbaiting have any place in Stompy? My thinking is that it should be fairly easy to conspire, 3 mana and tapping 2 creatures for 2 hasty 4/4s at least sounds good.
I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious. I'm a terrible player most of the time so I'm trying to figure it out
Does Giantbaiting have any place in Stompy? My thinking is that it should be fairly easy to conspire, 3 mana and tapping 2 creatures for 2 hasty 4/4s at least sounds good.
I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious. I'm a terrible player most of the time so I'm trying to figure it out
Even in a best case scenario, where you cast Giantbaiting with 2 Nettle Sentinel in play, I don't see any reason to run this card. It can be so easily disrupted that's absolutely no way to fit the card in.
Anyone have any suggestions on how NOT to lose to the U/R Nivix Cyclops decks? Other than having a nut draw and out racing them, it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do once T4 hits. Nivix Cyclops or Kiln Fiend then Ponder or Preordain and then an Assault Strobe and Artful Dodge and it's game over.
/Rant
But seriously
Does anyone have any suggestions? Or is it lock the door and hope they don't have blasters?
Anyone have any suggestions on how NOT to lose to the U/R Nivix Cyclops decks? Other than having a nut draw and out racing them, it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do once T4 hits. Nivix Cyclops or Kiln Fiend then Ponder or Preordain and then an Assault Strobe and Artful Dodge and it's game over.
/Rant
But seriously
Does anyone have any suggestions? Or is it lock the door and hope they don't have blasters?
Vines of Vastwood can let you counter an Assault Strobe when they're trying to combo off. Other than that the only viable sideboard card is Fog, but they can counter it with Dispel so even that's not a foolproof plan.
Just got into pauper. went 3-1 in my first daily losing to Affinity in a very close match.
I just got done playing my 2nd daily and I too am having trouble beating U/R Delver/ Nivvix/ Kiln fiend deck. I played it round 1 and 2. Won a game against each, fog helped out alot but how else do we beat this deck.
I just lost to NivixFiend today to go 2-2 in today's daily. Basically, it's one of those decks where you just pray they don't have it, since your only answer is Vines, or Fog out of the board. Vault Skirge helps if you lay it down early enough, but it has to have help to push you out of lethal range quickly.
The problem is that a T3 kill is easy for that deck. I put it together earlier to get a better understanding of it. Admittedly I didn't see any Tier 1 decks but the explosiveness of is impressive. Especially with Gitaxian Probe. Boosts the Cyclops and Fiend and you'll know if you can swing for the win.
Kiln Fiend actually hasn't been a problem for me to be honest. Sometimes they do have the complete nuts but I've only really lost against it twice in the span of what must be like 5 or 6 DEs.
Any advice or suggestions regardless? When I play it I feel like I've got nothing. I hadn't considered using Vines to stop their Assault Strobes and the like.
Any advice or suggestions regardless? When I play it I feel like I've got nothing. I hadn't considered using Vines to stop their Assault Strobes and the like.
It's just going to be a race most of the time so you need to keep an aggressive hand. One trick you can do is bluffing pump spells by attacking your 1/1s into their Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cyclops for instance. Pretty much no Nivix Fiend player worth his salt will block with their lone Cyclops/Fiend if you have cards in hand so you can force through extra damage this way. The deck loses to itself a good amount of the time too which helps (either they have to spend too much time digging for a Fiend/Cyclops or fail to find a red source to cast them in time). Really, Stompy should on paper be one of Nivix Fiend's better matchups - you're playing a deck with no removal and little disruption at all which is pretty much their dream scenario. Yet they're still probably only a slight favourite at best from my experience playing the matchup. Honestly Nivix Fiend is just a bad deck and the only reason it shows up so often in Dailies is because of its low cost.
Another tip in regards to Vines is that I'd save it for when they cast one of their evasion spells, as opposed to using it on Assault Strobe. Assault Strobe with no other aid just means they're ramming their Fiend/Cyclops really hard into one of your creatures, which is perfectly fine and a bit of a pseudo-blowout since they're wasting cards and you only lose a creature in which you should outnumber them 2:1 in terms of creature density in your deck.
Another tip in regards to Vines is that I'd save it for when they cast one of their evasion spells, as opposed to using it on Assault Strobe. Assault Strobe with no other aid just means they're ramming their Fiend/Cyclops really hard into one of your creatures, which is perfectly fine and a bit of a pseudo-blowout since they're wasting cards and you only lose a creature in which you should outnumber them 2:1 in terms of creature density in your deck.
Depends in what order they cast it. If they're smart and play the evasion spell first before playing Assault Strobe then they just get to try again next turn anyways if you Vines it (since the evasion spell is usually Artful Dodge these days). If they're silly and cast Assault Strobe first then yeah for sure you should wait for the evasion spell.
Does anyone have experience with Thermokarst? Im assuming its for Post. Does it do its job? Im having a little problem beating that deck more than 50% and wondering if i should invest in them
Alrighty, so I just 3-1'd a Daily with Stompy (my first finish in the money on an MTGO daily :D), and I feel it is my obligation to write a tournament report. First of all, my list:
1) For the mainboard, my philosophy is that the deck should break down into 16 one-drops (four-of the four cards), 9 two-drops (or vault skirge), 18 pump spells (including Rancor and Bonesplitter), and 17 Forests. One forest and one pump spell spot may be considered flex spots, but I think this is the formula that people use in general and that seems to work.
2) For my two-drops, I chose Safehold Elite and River Boa for their ability to stick around. I chose Shinen for the removal aspect, which I like to have in the deck (without resorting to pit fight or prey upon, which can often be dead cards that don't help with dealing our opponents damage). The Shinen doesn't seem to see as much play these days from what I've seen, but I still like it.
3) Some two-drops I didn't go with are Wild Mongrel, Garruk's Companion, Silhana Ledgewalker, and Vault Skirge. I don't feel like companion is a great card unless you make him a four-of and consistently cast him early in the game, which I don't like to do. The Ledgewalker doesn't feel like a mainboard card to me, although it is definitely useful in certain match-ups. Vault Skirge seemed bad to me just because of the amount of removal that seems to be out there right now, so I opted to leave him out. And I've just never really understood the appeal of running Mongrel. It just seems like there are better bodies I could get for two mana and better things I could be doing with those discarded cards.
4) I opted for Gather Courage over Mutagenic Growth since I am not running Vault Skirge. I don't like putting myself back two life against most decks, and in fact, I often wish this deck had a way to gain life (that wasn't as fragile as Vault Skirge).
5) My sideboard is very similar to jsiri's most recent posting except for the inclusion of Gleeful Sabotage over Serene Heart (due to it being better in a wider variety of match-ups, like Affinity), and opted to go with an extra Fog over the Bonesplitter. I originally had a sideboard that had 4 Silhana Ledgewalker in it, but decided last minute to go for something closer to jsiri's, because it seems like he knows what's up.
Matches! (finally)
Match One: 2-1 against GW Slivers
Oh man was this a close match. He applied some serious pressure, leading off each of the three games we played with a Sidewinder Sliver. I lost the first game in spite of using a pumped Shinen to nuke three of his guys. My sideboarding choices looked something like this:
-2 Shinen
-2 Safehold (not sure exactly about these)
+2 Fog
+2 Lignify
Game two, I saw all four of my sideboard cards, and they all were relevant. Fog kept from dying to poison counters until I managed to draw a Lignify to deal with the Virulent Sliver that was giving them. The second fog held off lethal, and the second Lignify nuked a second Virulent Sliver while I swung in for the win.
Game three was pretty much a race. On the turn I won, I had a Pit-Skulk with no counter and a Rancor facing down a few three power guys. Lignify came to the rescue again, as I neutralized a Muscle Sliver, bringing them down to a more reasonable two power which my guy could slip past for the last three points of damage.
Match Two: 2-0 against Izzet Post
Oh man, I almost feel bad about this match. Without going into detail, suffice to say that I had a pump spell to counter every single Electrostatic Bolt, Magma Spray, and Electrickery that my opponent had to throw at me. Literally five of his spells were countered this way, often on my turrn, too, netting me the extra damage. He didn't manage to get any business out before I beat him down.
This match was a little closer than the Izzet one. I won the first game in spite of staring down an Ulamog's Crusher. He kept swinging in when he maybe should have held back. I was more than happy to take eight damage at twenty life and sacrifice my Young Wolfs.
Game two ended in my concesison. He had more answers to my threats this time. Wickerbough Elder came in aginst me, and it was pretty good at destroying my Bonsplitters and Rancors. I made a few questionable plays regarding that card in this game (like swinging into for no good reason).
Game three was tight, but I eked out a victory on the back of a few pump spells saving my creatures. Nothing too remarkable.
Match Four: 1-2 against MBC
I'm not sure how a deck that doesn't make up too much of the meta and doesn't really have a favorable game against post decks got so far, but there it was in match four, staring me down. MBC is already a pretty bad matchup for this deck, and that was only made worse by several issues I had with the game client. Game one ended abruptly when my opponent conceeded out of nowhere. I was a bit taken aback, as it didn't seem like I was that far ahead at that point, but I decided I wasn't going to argue with it as I pressed the "Begin Sideboarding" button. Adding further to my surprise, the button did not work. I attempted to wait it out for a few minutes, but finally just decided to close and reopen. By that time, of course, the game had simply moved on without me into game two
SB:
Nothing
Game two was a series of frustrations at the hands of an opponent who wanted nothing more than my creatures to die. I might have been able to pull out a win if it weren't for Evincar's Justice and its buyback feature. At the end of this game, I was again startled to find that I was not going to be allowed to sideboard. I attempted to close and reopen MTGO more quickly this time, but the program only laughed at me, showing me the sideboard screen and allowing me to move cards around, then just decided that my deck would be better without those pesky additional cards and thrust me into my next game.
Game three was more of the same. Oh how I hate Crypt Rats.
Anyway, I hope this has been helpful for some of you out there, and I apologize for its length. Constructive criticism is also greatly appreciated.
-Playing Fog against Slivers seems pretty bad to me since there's a good chance they're playing Sentinel Sliver and can stop your backswing anyways. Also the good Sliver players won't really be trying to race you anyways unless they have to because you have a card they can't easily block (suited up Pit-Skulk, Ledgewalker, possibly Vault Skirge). Ideally they just want to sit back until they play enough anthem slivers that you simply cannot attack them anymore. Then they can send one or two 4/4 (or larger) slivers at you a turn and hold the rest back as blockers once they've established board position. In scenarios like this Fog doesn't really do anything for you. As I said before, Fog is only really good for swinging a race in your favor, and that's generally not how this matchup should be playing out. They are firmly the control deck of the matchup and you are the aggro deck so your primary goal should be killing them as fast as possible. Fog doesn't accomplish that goal and has no place in your deck for this matchup.
-Shinen seems like it should be pretty good against Slivers since it can actually give you a way to kill anthem Slivers which can prove to be a huge problem for Stompy if the game drags on and it lets you alpha should the game reach a standstill. Slivers is just a bad matchup for this deck overall I find though unless you can either aggro them out in the first 4-5 turns or you can get a Ledgewalker/Pit-Skulk that they can't really block suited up. Lignify I can see doing at least some work though and importantly serves as an out to sideboard Standard Bearer without having to bring the mostly useless (against Slivers) Hornet Sting in.
-Not sure why you're bringing in Leaf Arrows against U/R Post exactly. They have 4 Mulldrifters as targets and that's it. Wasting slots on removal for those is not really a winning strategy. Shinen is certainly at its worst in a matchup like this but it is still a guy that can carry a rancor or use other pump spells and sometimes extra bodies are what you need even if they're not particularly impressive. In anycase swapping Shinens for Archers is probably a lot better than bringing in LEaf Arrows. The Leaf Arrows are meant for Delver decks and probably Fissure Post, but certainly not Izzet Post.
-Same thing for Dimir Post, you really shouldn't be bringing in Leaf Arrows, or Lignify for that matter in a control matchup. You're the aggro deck, not the control deck - your goal is winning the game in a timely fashion, not trying to stall and live longer by killing your opponent's Mulldrifter or "killing" their Ulamog's Crusher. Cards like Leaf Arrows and Lignify will in reality do very little to get you back into the game once a control deck has established board position over you, and they're not really disruption you should be using over any of your pump spells or creatures in these matchups either. These decks are built on late-game inevitability so diluting your deck with things like Leaf Arrow and Lignify will usually only serve to make your own deck worse against them.
-Ulamog's Crusher must attack every turn it's able to. Your opponent attacking with it every turn wasn't him being overly aggressive, it was him following the rules
-Interface issues aside (though that is unfortunate) you don't really have much to sideboard in against MBC anyways. Ledgewalker is a decent threat in this matchup (just because they can't kill it too reliably) but you don't have them in your board (not that I disagree, I haven't found the card particularly good myself lately). Other than that you're running 3 Safehold Elite already which is one of the better creatures you can run against them. Really the only change I could see making is bringing in 2 Scattershot Archers just as extra bodies over the 2 Hunger of the Howlpack (since without Ledgewalker those are just going to get you 2-for-1ed anyways in most circumstances).
You make a lot of fair points. I will fully admit that my plays may not have been optimal in many places. I have only been piloting this deck for about a week. Here are some of my thoughts in return:
-I wanted fog in the slivers matchup because in the first game, I felt like I was only one turn behind him and that making him lose a combat phase could be beneficial. He didn't seem like he was playing the control game, so this also may have just been a bit to do with his job as a Slivers pilot. If I had kept ledgewalker in my sideboard, I believe I would have slotted that card in instead and played the more aggresive game. My problem with Shinen was that it only seemed good in the opening turns, when I could take out one or two before they all buffed each other. I left one or two regardless.
-You're probably right about the Leaf Arrows. I occasionally have a tendency to over-sideboard. I saw one Pacifism? Bring in four Gleeful Sabotage! Not that bad, but you get the point. I think I'll take your advice and stick to the more aggressive route in the future.
-Lignify was entirely for Ulamog's Crusher, which scared me. And again, Leaf Arrow was probably a mistake.
-Apparently I don't bother to read cards sometimes. Not only that, when I first began playing this deck, I didn't realize for quite awhile that Skarrgan Pit-Skulk had a second ability
-I actually liked Hunger of the Howlpack against him, but as before, that may have just been a fluke. I think siding into more creatures is probably the best option.
Again, thanks for the response. Much appreciated, and there are definitely some things I need to work on Did you have any thoughts as far as how the deck was constructed?
The thing about Lignifying a Crusher is that it's usually going to be too little too late. By the time they can cast a Crusher they're way up there on mana, and it's certainly not the only way they're going to kill you (a single Mulldrifter can get the job done once they've established control). Crusher doesn't come out early usually and it's not even a hindrance to you attacking other than the first turn it's in play so it's not really worth doing anything about it. You can often race it, and if you're in a situation where you can't then it's doubtful casting Lignify on it is going to be a game winning play anyways.
Howlpack can be okay if you have something hard to kill like Ledgewalker and it's decent for resetting Safehold Elites that have persisted while giving them a buff in the process but for pretty much anything else you put it on all they need is a Doom Blade/Victim of Night esque card to get the 2-for-1. This (along with their creatures like Chittering Rats and Rager) is how they pull ahead since they don't have a ton of hard card draw like the Post decks do so you'd generally rather not give them extra opportunities to gain card advantage if you can help it.
As for your list it's fairly stock maindeck other than the two drop slot which is where there's the most variance between lists. I like running 17 lands as well and I've been a fan of the single Bonesplitter as Rancor #5. As for the 2 drops:
I'm not really that big of a fan of Shinen right now. It just always seems so low impact and hard to get going to me, it's also not particularly useful against the creature-lite decks such as Izzet Post.
I like River Boa a lot. It's not amazing or anything but having a fairly difficult to remove threat against the various island decks is pretty nice right now. It can also still be decent at times in the mirror and against other creature decks like Affinity since it represents an annoying roadblock.
Safehold Elite is a card I like but it's maybe not at its best right now. I've been running one or two maindeck lately and they're fine but rarely great except when you get paired against Izzet Post or MBC (which don't make up a tremendous amount of the meta right now). They can be fairly decent in the mirror sometimes too just to get you sort of a 2-for-1 effect.
I've been playing around with Garruk's Companion lately (in place of Ledgewalker which I previously had) and I liked it a lot. The card is very hard hitting and presents a fast clock for the durdle Post decks of the format (especially Fissure Post which has little in the way of removal for it). Not to mention it's a card that can't really be chump blocked profitably thanks to trample. I thought it was mediocre on paper but in practice it has impressed me.
Wild Mongrel I agree with, every time I've played it the card has seemed very underwhelming to me. I'd rather just play Safehold Elite in most circumstances as Mongrel's discard ability has typically been irrelevant or marginal at best for me.
Vault Skirge I like right now just because of the popularity of the mirror where it can just give you free wins (especially game 1). It's also decent against Affinity and can be okay against Nivix Fiend (I guess...you have to gain a lot of life before it can actually effect their combo though). I like to configure my sideboard a bit differently than you though and put more creatures in it beyond Archers, so when Vault Skirges are bad (against Delver decks, against Post decks, against most of the popular decks other than the 3 I mentioned really) I can just swap it for the best creature(s) in the matchup
Ledgewalker is kind of a similar case to Vault Skirge. It can, be good against the mirror (though I would usually board it out if I was on the draw), good against Affinity, also good against removal decks like U/R Post and MBC but it also requires a lot of help to be actually useful. At the same time it's not particularly great against Delver decks which are one of the most common opponents in the format. Also if you draw too much of the creature-half of your deck then it's just going to be a 1/1 "unblockable" which is marginal at best. I also found I hated life whenever I drew more than one of them since you only really need to voltron one copy and the second is either excessive or a near blank. It's a card that can be useful but I found it to be pretty high variance myself.
As for your sideboard it's pretty reasonable. Like I said I run a few more creatures personally (I have the 4 Archers and then 1 Safehold, 1 River Boa, 1 Vault Skirge as creatures in my board at the moment) as I feel like the creatures are the most important aspect of the deck rather than the interactive cards you can bring in but all the cards you have are useful against the current meta.
I think my biggest difference in opinion here lies with the sideboard. Since this is an almost entirely non-interactive deck, I feel like we need more interaction in the sideboard for certain problems that just need to be dealt with (eg. Standard Bearer). Anyway, I think I'm going to work with the sideboard a bit. I'd like to put some Silhana Ledgewalkers back in I think, and maybe a few other creatures as you suggested.
I've played with Vault Skirges and the past and I did really like them, especially against the aggresive decks of the format. Going T1: Skirge T2: Rancor is a pretty difficult opening to beat in the mirror if they don't have removal or Skirges of their own. I think I may switch back to them, along with some of the other cards you mentioned. Something like 3 Skirge, 3 Companion, 3 River Boa Seems pretty good. Maybe an extra Skirge and even an extra Boa in the sideboard? I'd probably switch out the Gather Courages for Mutagenic Growth too.
I think my biggest difference in opinion here lies with the sideboard. Since this is an almost entirely non-interactive deck, I feel like we need more interaction in the sideboard for certain problems that just need to be dealt with (eg. Standard Bearer). Anyway, I think I'm going to work with the sideboard a bit. I'd like to put some Silhana Ledgewalkers back in I think, and maybe a few other creatures as you suggested.
I've played with Vault Skirges and the past and I did really like them, especially against the aggresive decks of the format. Going T1: Skirge T2: Rancor is a pretty difficult opening to beat in the mirror if they don't have removal or Skirges of their own. I think I may switch back to them, along with some of the other cards you mentioned. Something like 3 Skirge, 3 Companion, 3 River Boa Seems pretty good. Maybe an extra Skirge and even an extra Boa in the sideboard? I'd probably switch out the Gather Courages for Mutagenic Growth too.
Oh don't get me wrong, I have hornet Stings to deal with Standard Bearer, I just think generally speaking it's much more useful to optimize your creatures depending on the matchup than to start over-sideboarding on purely reactive cards. Standard Bearer is a card that if they play it you pretty much lose on the spot so you don't have much of a choice in that circumstance but to bring in Hornet Stings and/or Lignify if you expect they'll have it. Mono-green just isn't a strategy that is conducive to good reactive spells for the most part but sometimes they're necessary.
That configuration sounds fine though. I've been rolling with 3 Companion, 2 Skirge, 2 Boa, 2 Elite as a bit more of a hedge against the mono-removal decks. Then I can board in more copies of the 2 drop that's good depending on the matchup. I run Mutagenic Growth over Gather as well since it's obviously better with Vault Skirge. I've rarely found the lifeloss to be a problem.
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1) Silhana dies to Electrickery
2) Vault Skirge is more aggressive
The argument fails because:
1) Vault Skirge dies to Electrickery as well.
2) Vault Skirge is not "more aggressive." Sure it comes out on Turn 1. Silhana comes out on Turn 2. Both are 1/1s. If you think a 1/1 is going to get it done vs. UR post regardless of what turn it comes out on you're mistaken.
3) In addition to Electrickery, Vault Skirge dies to every other removal in the UR post deck.
4) Because of #2 both creatures need help in either Bonesplitter or Rancor to be a consistent threat that makes a difference. And because of #3 it is much easier to make Silhana a threat with these pump spells than it is to make Vault Skirge a threat and have it live long enough.
Silhana dies to 1-2 cards in their deck (Electrickery, assuming they play 1-2 maindeck, maybe more post-sideboard who knows). If you can't play around 2/60 cards, maybe we should be having a different discussion about why some people are just better off playing Momir where they don't have to worry about such things. Sure if you want to play Stompy like a burn deck vs. UR Post and try to throw up a high score and waste all your burn you're going to get blown out by Electrickery. But saying Silhana is bad against UR post is just blatantly incorrect.
What I'm saying is Hexproof is not feeling like a big enough deal to play a 1G 1/1. Not saying anybody's wrong for playing her, just trying to workshop this deck...
Pauper:
WW White Weenie WW
Fires :symr:f Salvation
I would note that if they are casting Mystical Teachings for stuff it means you're either way behind and they have the luxury to tap out or you're way ahead and they're desperately trying to search for an answer.
I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious. I'm a terrible player most of the time so I'm trying to figure it out
Even in a best case scenario, where you cast Giantbaiting with 2 Nettle Sentinel in play, I don't see any reason to run this card. It can be so easily disrupted that's absolutely no way to fit the card in.
/Rant
But seriously
Does anyone have any suggestions? Or is it lock the door and hope they don't have blasters?
Vines of Vastwood can let you counter an Assault Strobe when they're trying to combo off. Other than that the only viable sideboard card is Fog, but they can counter it with Dispel so even that's not a foolproof plan.
I just got done playing my 2nd daily and I too am having trouble beating U/R Delver/ Nivvix/ Kiln fiend deck. I played it round 1 and 2. Won a game against each, fog helped out alot but how else do we beat this deck.
Went 2-2 only losing to U/R Delver/Kiln/Nivvix
Maybe Prey Upon or Pit Fight?
Ambush Viper if they haven't Artful Dodge'd?
The problem is that a T3 kill is easy for that deck. I put it together earlier to get a better understanding of it. Admittedly I didn't see any Tier 1 decks but the explosiveness of is impressive. Especially with Gitaxian Probe. Boosts the Cyclops and Fiend and you'll know if you can swing for the win.
Could revisiting Infect be a possibility?
It's just going to be a race most of the time so you need to keep an aggressive hand. One trick you can do is bluffing pump spells by attacking your 1/1s into their Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cyclops for instance. Pretty much no Nivix Fiend player worth his salt will block with their lone Cyclops/Fiend if you have cards in hand so you can force through extra damage this way. The deck loses to itself a good amount of the time too which helps (either they have to spend too much time digging for a Fiend/Cyclops or fail to find a red source to cast them in time). Really, Stompy should on paper be one of Nivix Fiend's better matchups - you're playing a deck with no removal and little disruption at all which is pretty much their dream scenario. Yet they're still probably only a slight favourite at best from my experience playing the matchup. Honestly Nivix Fiend is just a bad deck and the only reason it shows up so often in Dailies is because of its low cost.
Depends in what order they cast it. If they're smart and play the evasion spell first before playing Assault Strobe then they just get to try again next turn anyways if you Vines it (since the evasion spell is usually Artful Dodge these days). If they're silly and cast Assault Strobe first then yeah for sure you should wait for the evasion spell.
17 Forest
Creatures (25)
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
3 River Boa
3 Safehold Elite
3 Shinen of Life's Roar
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Young Wolf
1 Bonesplitter
3 Gather Courage
4 Groundswell
2 Hunger of the Howlpack
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Fog
2 Gleeful Sabotage
3 Hornet Sting
2 Leaf Arrow
2 Lignify
4 Scattershot Archer
A few quite notes on my choices:
1) For the mainboard, my philosophy is that the deck should break down into 16 one-drops (four-of the four cards), 9 two-drops (or vault skirge), 18 pump spells (including Rancor and Bonesplitter), and 17 Forests. One forest and one pump spell spot may be considered flex spots, but I think this is the formula that people use in general and that seems to work.
2) For my two-drops, I chose Safehold Elite and River Boa for their ability to stick around. I chose Shinen for the removal aspect, which I like to have in the deck (without resorting to pit fight or prey upon, which can often be dead cards that don't help with dealing our opponents damage). The Shinen doesn't seem to see as much play these days from what I've seen, but I still like it.
3) Some two-drops I didn't go with are Wild Mongrel, Garruk's Companion, Silhana Ledgewalker, and Vault Skirge. I don't feel like companion is a great card unless you make him a four-of and consistently cast him early in the game, which I don't like to do. The Ledgewalker doesn't feel like a mainboard card to me, although it is definitely useful in certain match-ups. Vault Skirge seemed bad to me just because of the amount of removal that seems to be out there right now, so I opted to leave him out. And I've just never really understood the appeal of running Mongrel. It just seems like there are better bodies I could get for two mana and better things I could be doing with those discarded cards.
4) I opted for Gather Courage over Mutagenic Growth since I am not running Vault Skirge. I don't like putting myself back two life against most decks, and in fact, I often wish this deck had a way to gain life (that wasn't as fragile as Vault Skirge).
5) My sideboard is very similar to jsiri's most recent posting except for the inclusion of Gleeful Sabotage over Serene Heart (due to it being better in a wider variety of match-ups, like Affinity), and opted to go with an extra Fog over the Bonesplitter. I originally had a sideboard that had 4 Silhana Ledgewalker in it, but decided last minute to go for something closer to jsiri's, because it seems like he knows what's up.
Matches! (finally)
Match One: 2-1 against GW Slivers
Oh man was this a close match. He applied some serious pressure, leading off each of the three games we played with a Sidewinder Sliver. I lost the first game in spite of using a pumped Shinen to nuke three of his guys. My sideboarding choices looked something like this:
-2 Shinen
-2 Safehold (not sure exactly about these)
+2 Fog
+2 Lignify
Game two, I saw all four of my sideboard cards, and they all were relevant. Fog kept from dying to poison counters until I managed to draw a Lignify to deal with the Virulent Sliver that was giving them. The second fog held off lethal, and the second Lignify nuked a second Virulent Sliver while I swung in for the win.
Game three was pretty much a race. On the turn I won, I had a Pit-Skulk with no counter and a Rancor facing down a few three power guys. Lignify came to the rescue again, as I neutralized a Muscle Sliver, bringing them down to a more reasonable two power which my guy could slip past for the last three points of damage.
Match Two: 2-0 against Izzet Post
Oh man, I almost feel bad about this match. Without going into detail, suffice to say that I had a pump spell to counter every single Electrostatic Bolt, Magma Spray, and Electrickery that my opponent had to throw at me. Literally five of his spells were countered this way, often on my turrn, too, netting me the extra damage. He didn't manage to get any business out before I beat him down.
SB
-2 Shinen
+2 Leaf Arrow (never needed or saw it)
Match Three: 2-1 against Dimir Post
This match was a little closer than the Izzet one. I won the first game in spite of staring down an Ulamog's Crusher. He kept swinging in when he maybe should have held back. I was more than happy to take eight damage at twenty life and sacrifice my Young Wolfs.
SB
-some stuff
+2 Lignify
+2 Leaf Arrow (maybe; not sure)
Game two ended in my concesison. He had more answers to my threats this time. Wickerbough Elder came in aginst me, and it was pretty good at destroying my Bonsplitters and Rancors. I made a few questionable plays regarding that card in this game (like swinging into for no good reason).
Game three was tight, but I eked out a victory on the back of a few pump spells saving my creatures. Nothing too remarkable.
Match Four: 1-2 against MBC
I'm not sure how a deck that doesn't make up too much of the meta and doesn't really have a favorable game against post decks got so far, but there it was in match four, staring me down. MBC is already a pretty bad matchup for this deck, and that was only made worse by several issues I had with the game client. Game one ended abruptly when my opponent conceeded out of nowhere. I was a bit taken aback, as it didn't seem like I was that far ahead at that point, but I decided I wasn't going to argue with it as I pressed the "Begin Sideboarding" button. Adding further to my surprise, the button did not work. I attempted to wait it out for a few minutes, but finally just decided to close and reopen. By that time, of course, the game had simply moved on without me into game two
SB:
Nothing
Game two was a series of frustrations at the hands of an opponent who wanted nothing more than my creatures to die. I might have been able to pull out a win if it weren't for Evincar's Justice and its buyback feature. At the end of this game, I was again startled to find that I was not going to be allowed to sideboard. I attempted to close and reopen MTGO more quickly this time, but the program only laughed at me, showing me the sideboard screen and allowing me to move cards around, then just decided that my deck would be better without those pesky additional cards and thrust me into my next game.
Game three was more of the same. Oh how I hate Crypt Rats.
Anyway, I hope this has been helpful for some of you out there, and I apologize for its length. Constructive criticism is also greatly appreciated.
-Playing Fog against Slivers seems pretty bad to me since there's a good chance they're playing Sentinel Sliver and can stop your backswing anyways. Also the good Sliver players won't really be trying to race you anyways unless they have to because you have a card they can't easily block (suited up Pit-Skulk, Ledgewalker, possibly Vault Skirge). Ideally they just want to sit back until they play enough anthem slivers that you simply cannot attack them anymore. Then they can send one or two 4/4 (or larger) slivers at you a turn and hold the rest back as blockers once they've established board position. In scenarios like this Fog doesn't really do anything for you. As I said before, Fog is only really good for swinging a race in your favor, and that's generally not how this matchup should be playing out. They are firmly the control deck of the matchup and you are the aggro deck so your primary goal should be killing them as fast as possible. Fog doesn't accomplish that goal and has no place in your deck for this matchup.
-Shinen seems like it should be pretty good against Slivers since it can actually give you a way to kill anthem Slivers which can prove to be a huge problem for Stompy if the game drags on and it lets you alpha should the game reach a standstill. Slivers is just a bad matchup for this deck overall I find though unless you can either aggro them out in the first 4-5 turns or you can get a Ledgewalker/Pit-Skulk that they can't really block suited up. Lignify I can see doing at least some work though and importantly serves as an out to sideboard Standard Bearer without having to bring the mostly useless (against Slivers) Hornet Sting in.
-Not sure why you're bringing in Leaf Arrows against U/R Post exactly. They have 4 Mulldrifters as targets and that's it. Wasting slots on removal for those is not really a winning strategy. Shinen is certainly at its worst in a matchup like this but it is still a guy that can carry a rancor or use other pump spells and sometimes extra bodies are what you need even if they're not particularly impressive. In anycase swapping Shinens for Archers is probably a lot better than bringing in LEaf Arrows. The Leaf Arrows are meant for Delver decks and probably Fissure Post, but certainly not Izzet Post.
-Same thing for Dimir Post, you really shouldn't be bringing in Leaf Arrows, or Lignify for that matter in a control matchup. You're the aggro deck, not the control deck - your goal is winning the game in a timely fashion, not trying to stall and live longer by killing your opponent's Mulldrifter or "killing" their Ulamog's Crusher. Cards like Leaf Arrows and Lignify will in reality do very little to get you back into the game once a control deck has established board position over you, and they're not really disruption you should be using over any of your pump spells or creatures in these matchups either. These decks are built on late-game inevitability so diluting your deck with things like Leaf Arrow and Lignify will usually only serve to make your own deck worse against them.
-Ulamog's Crusher must attack every turn it's able to. Your opponent attacking with it every turn wasn't him being overly aggressive, it was him following the rules
-Interface issues aside (though that is unfortunate) you don't really have much to sideboard in against MBC anyways. Ledgewalker is a decent threat in this matchup (just because they can't kill it too reliably) but you don't have them in your board (not that I disagree, I haven't found the card particularly good myself lately). Other than that you're running 3 Safehold Elite already which is one of the better creatures you can run against them. Really the only change I could see making is bringing in 2 Scattershot Archers just as extra bodies over the 2 Hunger of the Howlpack (since without Ledgewalker those are just going to get you 2-for-1ed anyways in most circumstances).
You make a lot of fair points. I will fully admit that my plays may not have been optimal in many places. I have only been piloting this deck for about a week. Here are some of my thoughts in return:
-I wanted fog in the slivers matchup because in the first game, I felt like I was only one turn behind him and that making him lose a combat phase could be beneficial. He didn't seem like he was playing the control game, so this also may have just been a bit to do with his job as a Slivers pilot. If I had kept ledgewalker in my sideboard, I believe I would have slotted that card in instead and played the more aggresive game. My problem with Shinen was that it only seemed good in the opening turns, when I could take out one or two before they all buffed each other. I left one or two regardless.
-You're probably right about the Leaf Arrows. I occasionally have a tendency to over-sideboard. I saw one Pacifism? Bring in four Gleeful Sabotage! Not that bad, but you get the point. I think I'll take your advice and stick to the more aggressive route in the future.
-Lignify was entirely for Ulamog's Crusher, which scared me. And again, Leaf Arrow was probably a mistake.
-Apparently I don't bother to read cards sometimes. Not only that, when I first began playing this deck, I didn't realize for quite awhile that Skarrgan Pit-Skulk had a second ability
-I actually liked Hunger of the Howlpack against him, but as before, that may have just been a fluke. I think siding into more creatures is probably the best option.
Again, thanks for the response. Much appreciated, and there are definitely some things I need to work on Did you have any thoughts as far as how the deck was constructed?
Howlpack can be okay if you have something hard to kill like Ledgewalker and it's decent for resetting Safehold Elites that have persisted while giving them a buff in the process but for pretty much anything else you put it on all they need is a Doom Blade/Victim of Night esque card to get the 2-for-1. This (along with their creatures like Chittering Rats and Rager) is how they pull ahead since they don't have a ton of hard card draw like the Post decks do so you'd generally rather not give them extra opportunities to gain card advantage if you can help it.
As for your list it's fairly stock maindeck other than the two drop slot which is where there's the most variance between lists. I like running 17 lands as well and I've been a fan of the single Bonesplitter as Rancor #5. As for the 2 drops:
I'm not really that big of a fan of Shinen right now. It just always seems so low impact and hard to get going to me, it's also not particularly useful against the creature-lite decks such as Izzet Post.
I like River Boa a lot. It's not amazing or anything but having a fairly difficult to remove threat against the various island decks is pretty nice right now. It can also still be decent at times in the mirror and against other creature decks like Affinity since it represents an annoying roadblock.
Safehold Elite is a card I like but it's maybe not at its best right now. I've been running one or two maindeck lately and they're fine but rarely great except when you get paired against Izzet Post or MBC (which don't make up a tremendous amount of the meta right now). They can be fairly decent in the mirror sometimes too just to get you sort of a 2-for-1 effect.
I've been playing around with Garruk's Companion lately (in place of Ledgewalker which I previously had) and I liked it a lot. The card is very hard hitting and presents a fast clock for the durdle Post decks of the format (especially Fissure Post which has little in the way of removal for it). Not to mention it's a card that can't really be chump blocked profitably thanks to trample. I thought it was mediocre on paper but in practice it has impressed me.
Wild Mongrel I agree with, every time I've played it the card has seemed very underwhelming to me. I'd rather just play Safehold Elite in most circumstances as Mongrel's discard ability has typically been irrelevant or marginal at best for me.
Vault Skirge I like right now just because of the popularity of the mirror where it can just give you free wins (especially game 1). It's also decent against Affinity and can be okay against Nivix Fiend (I guess...you have to gain a lot of life before it can actually effect their combo though). I like to configure my sideboard a bit differently than you though and put more creatures in it beyond Archers, so when Vault Skirges are bad (against Delver decks, against Post decks, against most of the popular decks other than the 3 I mentioned really) I can just swap it for the best creature(s) in the matchup
Ledgewalker is kind of a similar case to Vault Skirge. It can, be good against the mirror (though I would usually board it out if I was on the draw), good against Affinity, also good against removal decks like U/R Post and MBC but it also requires a lot of help to be actually useful. At the same time it's not particularly great against Delver decks which are one of the most common opponents in the format. Also if you draw too much of the creature-half of your deck then it's just going to be a 1/1 "unblockable" which is marginal at best. I also found I hated life whenever I drew more than one of them since you only really need to voltron one copy and the second is either excessive or a near blank. It's a card that can be useful but I found it to be pretty high variance myself.
As for your sideboard it's pretty reasonable. Like I said I run a few more creatures personally (I have the 4 Archers and then 1 Safehold, 1 River Boa, 1 Vault Skirge as creatures in my board at the moment) as I feel like the creatures are the most important aspect of the deck rather than the interactive cards you can bring in but all the cards you have are useful against the current meta.
I think my biggest difference in opinion here lies with the sideboard. Since this is an almost entirely non-interactive deck, I feel like we need more interaction in the sideboard for certain problems that just need to be dealt with (eg. Standard Bearer). Anyway, I think I'm going to work with the sideboard a bit. I'd like to put some Silhana Ledgewalkers back in I think, and maybe a few other creatures as you suggested.
I've played with Vault Skirges and the past and I did really like them, especially against the aggresive decks of the format. Going T1: Skirge T2: Rancor is a pretty difficult opening to beat in the mirror if they don't have removal or Skirges of their own. I think I may switch back to them, along with some of the other cards you mentioned. Something like 3 Skirge, 3 Companion, 3 River Boa Seems pretty good. Maybe an extra Skirge and even an extra Boa in the sideboard? I'd probably switch out the Gather Courages for Mutagenic Growth too.
Oh don't get me wrong, I have hornet Stings to deal with Standard Bearer, I just think generally speaking it's much more useful to optimize your creatures depending on the matchup than to start over-sideboarding on purely reactive cards. Standard Bearer is a card that if they play it you pretty much lose on the spot so you don't have much of a choice in that circumstance but to bring in Hornet Stings and/or Lignify if you expect they'll have it. Mono-green just isn't a strategy that is conducive to good reactive spells for the most part but sometimes they're necessary.
That configuration sounds fine though. I've been rolling with 3 Companion, 2 Skirge, 2 Boa, 2 Elite as a bit more of a hedge against the mono-removal decks. Then I can board in more copies of the 2 drop that's good depending on the matchup. I run Mutagenic Growth over Gather as well since it's obviously better with Vault Skirge. I've rarely found the lifeloss to be a problem.