are the inevitable spinal bone of the deck, but there is space for other 2-3 creatures, the most relevant are: Porcelain Legionnaire, Somber Hoverguard and Vault Skirge.
I run the Hoverguard, preferring evasion (relevant also in the blocking process), no life loss and a bigger body.
What do you think?
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
are the inevitable spinal bone of the deck, but there is space for other 2-3 creatures, the most relevant are: Porcelain Legionnaire, Somber Hoverguard and Vault Skirge.
I run the Hoverguard, preferring evasion (relevant also in the blocking process), no life loss and a bigger body.
What do you think?
- L
Well if you read my posts from yesterday you would see that I agree with you that the Hoverguard is the best option.
I don't think Vault Skirge is playable at all with the way this deck is set up - you have no ways to pump it and other than providing a 1 mana guy to operate Springleaf Drum it doesn't do much else. If it was like Modern where Cranial Plating is legal then I could see arguments for running the Skirge but it is not legal so Skirge shouldn't be anywhere near your deck here. If you really want another 1 drop artifact then you should play Flayer Husk as it at least has some value in the mirror and can do some decent things like putting your 4/4s out of range of a Galvanic Blast or Flame Slash.
Legionnaire is all sorts of mediocre. He seems absolutely dreadful in the mirror, not being able to battle anything effectively other than Frogmites (which you should probably board out anyways) and Disciples and he won't do much against a Delver deck with Spire Golems and Frostburn Weirds either. He can occasionally hold off aggro decks but even that is not always true - Stompy has a myriad of ways to go over top of him with pump spells, and Goblins has many ways to kill him. Really, the only thing I think he does well is racing, which should only be your main plan of attack against the Post decks that will dominate any long game against you. Even then, I only see him doing any real damage against Fissure Post decks since U/R Post just has many easy ways to deal with him.
Maybe i'm speaking out of frustration but, after a week of testing on MODO, i didn't find a real good match-up pre-board between the top tiers decks, and after the SB it's even worst... Someone can explain why i'm wrong, or MODO is so much different from cockatrice and i must resign?
Also with 17 lands i literally didn't have a single game without mulligan for no-lander for the second consecutive day, even started a 4 multiple times...
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
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Maybe i'm speaking out of frustration but, after a week of testing on MODO, i didn't find a real good match-up pre-board between the top tiers decks, and after the SB it's even worst... Someone can explain why i'm wrong, or MODO is so much different from cockatrice and i must resign?
Also with 17 lands i literally didn't have a single game without mulligan for no-lander for the second consecutive day, even started a 4 multiple times...
- L
As far as the common matchups:
-Delver should be favorable overall. They definitely can get their draws that beat you but if you start sticking your 4/4s they get into trouble very quickly. You really need to play around their countermagic as much as possible here, and also do not rely on Atog-Fling combo to work. Especially not games 2 and 3 where they can bring in Hydroblast (I usually just board Fling out entirely in this matchup).
-Stompy should be favorable game 1 and probably close to even games 2 and 3 since they have the ability to just blow you out with Gleeful Sabotage on your first two lands. The important thing to remember is that you have a much better endgame than they do so you should be trying to be the control deck as much as possible as opposed to racing. Keeping a proactive hand is obviously very important as you can't afford to durdle around much
-Any kind of mono-removal deck like Mono-Black Control is usually a really bad matchup. Affinity is on the slower side of the aggro decks (leaning a bit towards the midrange end of the spectrum even) and MBC picks those kind of decks apart. Izzet Post is a better matchup but still probably unfavorable overall (especially if they're boarding in Ancient Grudge). You do get Pyroblast to disrupt their Mulldrifters and other draw though which helps.
-Fissure Post is pretty close I think. Having 8+ ways to disrupt them from comboing between Galvanic Blast and Pyroblast post-board goes a long way and if you get an aggressive draw you can crush them very quickly. If they manage to combo off though it's very unlikely you can come back so you need to pressure them.
-FiendClops should be favorable I would think though sometimes they board into Gorilla Shamans so it might not always be. The most important thing is to ration your removal for their Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cyclops. You can usually put on enough pressure to race a Delver from them but the other two can just kill you from 20 life if you let them untap with them.
-Goblins is overall favorable since your large creatures give them such a tough time and Atog can quickly turn into the Abyss against them. Post-board they get Gorilla Shamans that can give them free wins and other hate like Smash to Smithereens so it's closer but I think Affinity should still be favored. Like against Stompy you should usually be aiming to play the control role and only go on the offensive once you have a defence set up - if you get over aggressive too soon they can easily drop a Bushwhacker and hit you for a ton of damage.
Anyways as far as mulliganing, this deck does it a lot. Affinity is a deck that when it gets its best draws its perhaps the most powerful in the format. However just as often (perhaps more) Affinity is a deck that kills itself having to mull to 5 or having to keep sketchy hands without the right colored mana and hoping it works out. If you feel like 17 lands isn't enough you can always run an 18th. I definitely would not be against the idea. In the stock lists especially they're running a miser's copy of Krark-Clan Shaman maindeck and that could just as easily be a second copy of Darksteel Citadel I think.
I've found delver to be one of this deck's worst matchups - affinity is weak to fliers and it doesn't handle counterspells and bounce effects either.
They definitely can get their draws that beat you but if you start sticking your 4/4s they get into trouble very quickly.
What 4/4s do you have? The green creature is decent but myr enforcer is almost unplayable - he takes too long to get to avoid them having mana for a counterspell and even if he hits play they can just bounce it later and counter it.
Snap + counterspell = GG
You really need to play around their countermagic as much as possible here, and also do not rely on Atog-Fling combo to work.
This is true. Atog/fling are more unplayable cards - board them out.
Your SB should have 4 Pyroblasts.
Stompy should be favorable game 1
If you're on the play, this might be true. If you're not, they're favored unless you stumble into Flingatog. They're just faster than you.
and probably close to even games 2 and 3 since they have the ability to just blow you out with Gleeful Sabotage on your first two lands.
Again, depends who's on the play. Sabotage is a beating and shinen + pump spell = GG.
Flingatog is again the best option, unless you have a hand of mono 4/4s.
-Any kind of mono-removal deck like Mono-Black Control is usually a really bad matchup.
I've found this matchup to be essentially a free bye. Their creatures are just so crappy that even with their removal they get overrun eventually.
Izzet Post is a better matchup but still probably unfavorable overall
This matchup is ridiculously stacked in affinity's favor - I'd call it another free bye. If you have even an average hand the sheer size of your creatures means unless they have a removal heavy hand you can bring them to a low life total quickly - then you can burn them out, disciple them, or just attack them to death.
Ancient Grudge isn't even that good against you. They can kill an artifact for 2 mana, then they have to pay 3 mana to prism + flashback, and if you have a springleaf drum or you played the green 4/4 it does almost nothing.
Fissure Post is pretty close I think. Having 8+ ways to disrupt them from comboing between Galvanic Blast and Pyroblast post-board goes a long way and if you get an aggressive draw you can crush them very quickly. If they manage to combo off though it's very unlikely you can come back so you need to pressure them.
This is accurate.
FiendClops should be favorable
Why? Unless you have a Galvanic Blast you're probably dead G1. It doesn't get much better post-SB.
The most important thing is to ration your removal for their Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cyclops. You can usually put on enough pressure to race a Delver from them but the other two can just kill you from 20 life if you let them untap with them.
This is true.
Goblins is overall favorable
G1 is ok, but post-sb they should have 4 shamans = GG.
Affinity is a deck that when it gets its best draws its perhaps the most powerful in the format. However just as often (perhaps more) Affinity is a deck that kills itself having to mull to 5 or having to keep sketchy hands without the right colored mana and hoping it works out.
This is true - if you hate losing games without being able to cast your spells, this is not the deck for you.
I've found delver to be one of this deck's worst matchups - affinity is weak to fliers and it doesn't handle counterspells and bounce effects either.
What 4/4s do you have? The green creature is decent but myr enforcer is almost unplayable - he takes too long to get to avoid them having mana for a counterspell and even if he hits play they can just bounce it later and counter it.
Snap + counterspell = GG
This is true. Atog/fling are more unplayable cards - board them out.
Your SB should have 4 Pyroblasts.
If you're on the play, this might be true. If you're not, they're favored unless you stumble into Flingatog. They're just faster than you.
Again, depends who's on the play. Sabotage is a beating and shinen + pump spell = GG.
Flingatog is again the best option, unless you have a hand of mono 4/4s.
I've found this matchup to be essentially a free bye. Their creatures are just so crappy that even with their removal they get overrun eventually.
This matchup is ridiculously stacked in affinity's favor - I'd call it another free bye. If you have even an average hand the sheer size of your creatures means unless they have a removal heavy hand you can bring them to a low life total quickly - then you can burn them out, disciple them, or just attack them to death.
Ancient Grudge isn't even that good against you. They can kill an artifact for 2 mana, then they have to pay 3 mana to prism + flashback, and if you have a springleaf drum or you played the green 4/4 it does almost nothing.
This is accurate.
Why? Unless you have a Galvanic Blast you're probably dead G1. It doesn't get much better post-SB.
This is true.
G1 is ok, but post-sb they should have 4 shamans = GG.
This is true - if you hate losing games without being able to cast your spells, this is not the deck for you.
I mean, I beat Delver pretty much all the time when I was playing Affinity a month ago and it's not like anything has drastically changed since then. They typically only run 4-5 hard counters, Spellstutter Sprites (which conveniently lack the ability to hit many of your key cards such as Myr Enforcer or Thoughtcast), and Daze which only matters in the early stages of the game. You have better creatures and more draw 2s than them so unless they get a draw that lets them race you effectively with flyers they will be hard pressed to beat you in a long game.
Saying Snap + Counter = gg is pretty off too. Delver is 2-for-1ing themselves to make that play and it will only be a good play for them to make if they have a board that lets them race you (which can happen for sure but it isn't the way the game will always play out).
The point about being on the draw vs play against Stompy is certainly true and in post-board games especially it can make all the difference (getting Gleeful Sabotaged when you are on the draw tends to be even more difficult to recover from since they're often already beating you down at that point and now you have to start over again AND deal with at least two creatures).
I don't at all agree with you on MBC being a bye. MBC tears this deck a new one. Sure, their creatures are crappy but the point you're missing is that their creatures all have built-in card advantage. This combined with Sign in Blood and all of their cycling lands lets them play the 1-for-1 game with removal spells until they just kill off your board and chip away at you with their 2/2s. Affinity does not always get to vomit out its hand on the 3rd or 4th turn, really it only does this about 1-2 times every 10 games while in a more typical game you're just playing out threats 1 by 1. If you're only playing one 4/4 a turn they can just match that with their Doom Blades, Victim of Nights, Geth's Verdicts, and other 1-for-1 removal until they exhaust your resources. The creature decks MBC has some trouble with are the ones that can put enough bodies on the board to overload their removal (Goblins can do this fairly well at times)
Ancient Grudge being "not good against you" I can't really agree with. You are playing an artifact deck - at worst it will be a 1-for-1 against you, and that's if they don't draw a Prism. Sure its effect may be less impactful if they draw it on turn 10 as opposed to in their opening hand but shattering your first two land drops can go quite a ways to derailing your chances in this matchup (i.e T2 Ancient Grudge into T3 Prism + Ancient Grudge flashback, something that has happened to me before against Post). Even just killing two Frogmites can be a pretty big inconvenience. Anyways like I said this is not an unwinnable matchup, especially with Pyroblast allowing you to disrupt them in games 2 and 3, but with all the removal they have access to if you don't get off to a quick start/get an opportunity to Atog-Fling them with their pants down then you are going to have trouble (though Atog-Fling often is a reasonable path to victory game 1 once they've stabilized. not so much games 2 and 3 if they're boarding hydroblasts).
I'll concede I maybe gave the deck a bit too much credit vs Nivix Fiend though I think it's at least even from the games I've played in the matchup. While it's not an ideal use, Fling is in fact a removal spell if you need it to be, and since they're so light on creatures this can often buy you enough time to kill them before they get another Fiend/Cyclops in play game 1. Post-board you get 4 Pyroblasts as additional ways to kill a Cyclops, plus some also board in other removal (I generally have a Doom Blade in my board at least)
Shaman isn't always GG out of Goblins (I say this as a Goblins pilot). It often can (and will) give you free wins, but there are many situations where Goblins either can't use it very profitably before it is killed (the deck typically runs 17 lands so being stuck on 2 is not an uncommon scenario in which case you'd only get to hit 1 land), or they draw it too late for it to matter (i.e once you already have an established board with 3+ 4/4s in play and you can just race them).
Speaking as primarily a player of :symrw:Ichorpotence, and thus with plenty of experience against artifact hate and against Affinity:
Delver fails by drawing either too many counterspells or too much clock. Too many counterspells means you can outdraw them. Too much clock means you can outrace them. Hitting that perfect balance is very tough. You can usually tell a good Delver player by the Steel Sabotage he boards in. He has those because you are a tough matchup and he knows it.
MBC is not much of a factor lately, but a removal-heavy variant can keep you out of the red zone with a barrage of Victim of Night and Grasp of Darkness. MBC that runs insufficient removal is a bye, though, since discard isn't really enough to stop you.
Dragonaut is tricky to beat because the builds vary so widely; you never know if you're going to have to beat an Apostle's Blessing or an Artful Dodge or a Mutagenic Growth or a Dispel or an Electrostatic Bolt, and they always seem to have Assault Strobe ready on the critical turn. You generally need your blockers to count, but you can't assume they don't have the evasion. I should really put the deck together - do we have a primer thread for it?
If I'm boarding in Ancient Grudge, I'm planning on using it against Myr Enforcer, allowing me to hold back more removal for Atog. Crushing two of your land early can be good, but only if I really, really don't have anything else on turn 3.
Gorilla Shaman has good games and bad games. Keeping that up is tricky, especially for Goblins, where a 1-lander is frequently a snap-keep.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
There are 3 videos of me beating Affinity with my Delver deck. I also beat 2 Affinity decks in the 8:30 Daily last night that I didn't record. I think you're overestimating how good Affinity is against Delver, I'm never scared of Affinity when I play against them in Dailies. They get god-draws and are able to throw 3x 4/4's on the table on turn 3 or 4 occasionally, but then other times they just miss land drops or hit the wrong lands or lose to their own manabase.
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Delver can beat pretty well any deck in the format so saying you beat Affinity isn't suprising or anything. That doesn't mean the matchup is in your favor at all though. By comparison I had a run of beating G/W hexproof 4 or 5 times in a row with my Goblins deck before finally losing to one in the last DE I did but I could still recognize that was not the norm of the matchup (I got lucky many times, being able to Electrickery on a crucial turn or them getting land screwed and the matches would always go to 3 games). I beat 4 Delver decks in a row onto a 4-0 with the deck once and I think out of the 8 or so DEs I ran Affinity through I only lost one match to a Delver deck. Yes Affinity can lose to itself, I've said as much on multiple occasions (really that's why I only played the deck for a couple weeks, it was too high variance for me) but their average draw will beat an average Delver draw provided the Affinity pilot is competent and understands how to play the matchup. That being said there are a LOT of bad Affinity pilots which can often give back some percentage points to Delver players.
Saying Snap + Counter = gg is pretty off too. Delver is 2-for-1ing themselves to make that play and it will only be a good play for them to make if they have a board that lets them race you (which can happen for sure but it isn't the way the game will always play out).
Sometimes a 2 for 1 is the right play - they have a lot of card draw and very few of your creatures are relevant.
a player of Ichorpotence
I've never heard of this.
I'm never scared of Affinity when I play against them in Dailies.
That's what I would expect - the delver deck brings everything that Afiinity is weak against.
I'm surprised to hear Delver is really that favored vs. Affinity. When I used to discuss the matchup quite a bit w/ Mezzel we concluded it was actually kind of awful and totally dependent on trying to flip an early Delver. Anything short of that and they just had too much card draw and big cheap threats. It was to the point that Steel Sabotage was a sideboard card. Affinity has also historically been a weak point for any blue deck for exactly those reasons.
Has something changed with the Affinity or Delver decks that all of a sudden made this matchup so heavily favored for Delver as people claim? Or is it Affinity pilots making their builds worse and playing even worse? Or are we assuming that Delver players always play T1 Delver and flip on the play w/ T2 Cloud of Faeries, Spellstutter, Daze backup?
4 cyclers that can be countered and 4 thoughtcasts that require artifacts in play and can be countered isn't impressive...
big cheap threats
The green 4/4 is good, but what else is there? Myr enforcer is a pain to cast and if he isn't countered can be bounced or even just ignored. Atog is almost unplayable in this matchup and somber hoverguard is just an incredibly crappy delver.
all of a sudden made this matchup so heavily favored for Delver as people claim?
The bannings allowed delver to play steel sabotoge, frostburn weird, and the blue pacifism in their sb.
It has a lot of artifacts, and for the purposes of what I said, that's all that matters.
EDIT: Also, if you're going to snippet-quote, keep the post-link in so people can see what's being said to whom.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
4 cyclers that can be countered and 4 thoughtcasts that require artifacts in play and can be countered isn't impressive...
The green 4/4 is good, but what else is there? Myr enforcer is a pain to cast and if he isn't countered can be bounced or even just ignored. Atog is almost unplayable in this matchup and somber hoverguard is just an incredibly crappy delver.
The bannings allowed delver to play steel sabotoge, frostburn weird, and the blue pacifism in their sb.
If you're playing all that sideboard hate for a single match-up that kind of implies your edge against them isn't as big as you think it is.
It has a lot of artifacts, and for the purposes of what I said, that's all that matters.
No, it's not.
If you're playing all that sideboard hate for a single match-up that kind of implies your edge against them isn't as big as you think it is.
Affinity can bring in pyroblasts, eletrickery, dispel, and doom blade.
These decks have a large allotment for each other because they're the most popular - trying to get an edge over a deck that you expect to see frequently doesn't mean by default your g1 matchup isn't good.
Are you talking about that RW deck that uses sanctum gargoyle and kuldotha rebirth?
Yes, though my build skips the Gargoyle for a variety of reasons.
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
I'm surprised to hear Delver is really that favored vs. Affinity. When I used to discuss the matchup quite a bit w/ Mezzel we concluded it was actually kind of awful and totally dependent on trying to flip an early Delver. Anything short of that and they just had too much card draw and big cheap threats. It was to the point that Steel Sabotage was a sideboard card. Affinity has also historically been a weak point for any blue deck for exactly those reasons.
Has something changed with the Affinity or Delver decks that all of a sudden made this matchup so heavily favored for Delver as people claim? Or is it Affinity pilots making their builds worse and playing even worse? Or are we assuming that Delver players always play T1 Delver and flip on the play w/ T2 Cloud of Faeries, Spellstutter, Daze backup?
Actually kind of surprised Mezzel said this since his maindeck is what I play. I don't run Dazes in my list because I have 4 Snaps to deal with early 4/4s, and 2 Excludes means I'm not down a card when I make the Snap/Counterspell play. I think I win most often on their own mana issues though, and very aggressively Spellstuttering anything. I'm not afraid to Stutter Chromatic Stars even, which means they can only cast 1 Frogmite on turn 3, and then I can Stutter a Carapace Forger or Atog, or Counter/Exclude Myr Enforcers. After sideboard I bring in Snakeforms to deal with the 4/4s that do resolve if I don't just out tempo them with flipped Delvers and Snaps.
If anyone has any more insight into what I'm doing right against them or what they're doing wrong against me, let me know.
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I can buy that Delver will get a lot of free wins in the match up with them stumbling all over their inconsistent manabase. Mezzel's build is better against them than the average Delver build because he does use Exclude main deck and has additional card draw with the Oona's Grace.
I noticed what a lot of the good Affinity players used to do was just build up artifact count and then flood the board on a single turn with all the creatures. Short of the flipped T1 Delver I don't think the average Delver deck really has a great clock and actually not a ton of counters. Maybe you can counter them 1:1 if they're only playing 1 threat a turn but that approach seems to be the right way to overwhelm Delver which is short on mana and counters.
I think the key is probably focusing on the 4/4s and Atog. Everything else is secondary and not a huge deal. Not having Daze and using Exclude is also huge. Every Delver player really should consider that.
Has something changed with the Affinity or Delver decks that all of a sudden made this matchup so heavily favored for Delver as people claim?
Not at all, Affinity IS a poor matchup for Delver. Of course, Delver being Delver pretty well any matchup is winnable but those here saying Delver is favored are mistaken. It is definitely the other way around.
Actually kind of surprised Mezzel said this since his maindeck is what I play. I don't run Dazes in my list because I have 4 Snaps to deal with early 4/4s, and 2 Excludes means I'm not down a card when I make the Snap/Counterspell play. I think I win most often on their own mana issues though, and very aggressively Spellstuttering anything. I'm not afraid to Stutter Chromatic Stars even, which means they can only cast 1 Frogmite on turn 3, and then I can Stutter a Carapace Forger or Atog, or Counter/Exclude Myr Enforcers. After sideboard I bring in Snakeforms to deal with the 4/4s that do resolve if I don't just out tempo them with flipped Delvers and Snaps.
If anyone has any more insight into what I'm doing right against them or what they're doing wrong against me, let me know.
Though I have to say this is a good point, more Delver players really should do this as it often messes with Affinity a lot even though it might not look like it on the surface. I always found many Delver players I faced were too proud to "waste" their Sprites on a Chromatic Star or a Prophetic Prism when really these are the nuts and bolts of what makes Affinity work. Disrupting Affinity early and establishing a clock is the most reliable way for Delver to win. All that being said the matchup is still in Affinity's favor but a good Delver player can certainly gain percentage points in this way.
Right now I'm playing
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
Creatures 22
4 Atog
4 Carapace Forger
4 Frogmite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Chromatic Star
2 Prohetic Prism
2 Fling
4 Thoughtcast
4 Galvanic Blast
Side
3 Doom Blade
2 Duress
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Krack-Clan Shaman
2 Electrickey
2 Serene Heart
4 Carapace Forger
4 Frogmite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Myr Enforce
are the inevitable spinal bone of the deck, but there is space for other 2-3 creatures, the most relevant are: Porcelain Legionnaire, Somber Hoverguard and Vault Skirge.
I run the Hoverguard, preferring evasion (relevant also in the blocking process), no life loss and a bigger body.
What do you think?
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Well if you read my posts from yesterday you would see that I agree with you that the Hoverguard is the best option.
I don't think Vault Skirge is playable at all with the way this deck is set up - you have no ways to pump it and other than providing a 1 mana guy to operate Springleaf Drum it doesn't do much else. If it was like Modern where Cranial Plating is legal then I could see arguments for running the Skirge but it is not legal so Skirge shouldn't be anywhere near your deck here. If you really want another 1 drop artifact then you should play Flayer Husk as it at least has some value in the mirror and can do some decent things like putting your 4/4s out of range of a Galvanic Blast or Flame Slash.
Legionnaire is all sorts of mediocre. He seems absolutely dreadful in the mirror, not being able to battle anything effectively other than Frogmites (which you should probably board out anyways) and Disciples and he won't do much against a Delver deck with Spire Golems and Frostburn Weirds either. He can occasionally hold off aggro decks but even that is not always true - Stompy has a myriad of ways to go over top of him with pump spells, and Goblins has many ways to kill him. Really, the only thing I think he does well is racing, which should only be your main plan of attack against the Post decks that will dominate any long game against you. Even then, I only see him doing any real damage against Fissure Post decks since U/R Post just has many easy ways to deal with him.
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
Creatures 22
4 Atog
4 Carapace Forger
4 Frogmite
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Somber Hoverguard
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Chromatic Star
3 Prohetic Prism
Other Spells 10
2 Fling
4 Thoughtcast
4 Galvanic Blast
Side
2 Doom Blade
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Krack-Clan Shaman
2 Electrickey
4 Pyroblast
Also with 17 lands i literally didn't have a single game without mulligan for no-lander for the second consecutive day, even started a 4 multiple times...
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
As far as the common matchups:
-Delver should be favorable overall. They definitely can get their draws that beat you but if you start sticking your 4/4s they get into trouble very quickly. You really need to play around their countermagic as much as possible here, and also do not rely on Atog-Fling combo to work. Especially not games 2 and 3 where they can bring in Hydroblast (I usually just board Fling out entirely in this matchup).
-Stompy should be favorable game 1 and probably close to even games 2 and 3 since they have the ability to just blow you out with Gleeful Sabotage on your first two lands. The important thing to remember is that you have a much better endgame than they do so you should be trying to be the control deck as much as possible as opposed to racing. Keeping a proactive hand is obviously very important as you can't afford to durdle around much
-Any kind of mono-removal deck like Mono-Black Control is usually a really bad matchup. Affinity is on the slower side of the aggro decks (leaning a bit towards the midrange end of the spectrum even) and MBC picks those kind of decks apart. Izzet Post is a better matchup but still probably unfavorable overall (especially if they're boarding in Ancient Grudge). You do get Pyroblast to disrupt their Mulldrifters and other draw though which helps.
-Fissure Post is pretty close I think. Having 8+ ways to disrupt them from comboing between Galvanic Blast and Pyroblast post-board goes a long way and if you get an aggressive draw you can crush them very quickly. If they manage to combo off though it's very unlikely you can come back so you need to pressure them.
-FiendClops should be favorable I would think though sometimes they board into Gorilla Shamans so it might not always be. The most important thing is to ration your removal for their Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cyclops. You can usually put on enough pressure to race a Delver from them but the other two can just kill you from 20 life if you let them untap with them.
-Goblins is overall favorable since your large creatures give them such a tough time and Atog can quickly turn into the Abyss against them. Post-board they get Gorilla Shamans that can give them free wins and other hate like Smash to Smithereens so it's closer but I think Affinity should still be favored. Like against Stompy you should usually be aiming to play the control role and only go on the offensive once you have a defence set up - if you get over aggressive too soon they can easily drop a Bushwhacker and hit you for a ton of damage.
Anyways as far as mulliganing, this deck does it a lot. Affinity is a deck that when it gets its best draws its perhaps the most powerful in the format. However just as often (perhaps more) Affinity is a deck that kills itself having to mull to 5 or having to keep sketchy hands without the right colored mana and hoping it works out. If you feel like 17 lands isn't enough you can always run an 18th. I definitely would not be against the idea. In the stock lists especially they're running a miser's copy of Krark-Clan Shaman maindeck and that could just as easily be a second copy of Darksteel Citadel I think.
I've found delver to be one of this deck's worst matchups - affinity is weak to fliers and it doesn't handle counterspells and bounce effects either.
What 4/4s do you have? The green creature is decent but myr enforcer is almost unplayable - he takes too long to get to avoid them having mana for a counterspell and even if he hits play they can just bounce it later and counter it.
Snap + counterspell = GG
This is true. Atog/fling are more unplayable cards - board them out.
Your SB should have 4 Pyroblasts.
If you're on the play, this might be true. If you're not, they're favored unless you stumble into Flingatog. They're just faster than you.
Again, depends who's on the play. Sabotage is a beating and shinen + pump spell = GG.
Flingatog is again the best option, unless you have a hand of mono 4/4s.
I've found this matchup to be essentially a free bye. Their creatures are just so crappy that even with their removal they get overrun eventually.
This matchup is ridiculously stacked in affinity's favor - I'd call it another free bye. If you have even an average hand the sheer size of your creatures means unless they have a removal heavy hand you can bring them to a low life total quickly - then you can burn them out, disciple them, or just attack them to death.
Ancient Grudge isn't even that good against you. They can kill an artifact for 2 mana, then they have to pay 3 mana to prism + flashback, and if you have a springleaf drum or you played the green 4/4 it does almost nothing.
This is accurate.
Why? Unless you have a Galvanic Blast you're probably dead G1. It doesn't get much better post-SB.
This is true.
G1 is ok, but post-sb they should have 4 shamans = GG.
This is true - if you hate losing games without being able to cast your spells, this is not the deck for you.
I mean, I beat Delver pretty much all the time when I was playing Affinity a month ago and it's not like anything has drastically changed since then. They typically only run 4-5 hard counters, Spellstutter Sprites (which conveniently lack the ability to hit many of your key cards such as Myr Enforcer or Thoughtcast), and Daze which only matters in the early stages of the game. You have better creatures and more draw 2s than them so unless they get a draw that lets them race you effectively with flyers they will be hard pressed to beat you in a long game.
Saying Snap + Counter = gg is pretty off too. Delver is 2-for-1ing themselves to make that play and it will only be a good play for them to make if they have a board that lets them race you (which can happen for sure but it isn't the way the game will always play out).
The point about being on the draw vs play against Stompy is certainly true and in post-board games especially it can make all the difference (getting Gleeful Sabotaged when you are on the draw tends to be even more difficult to recover from since they're often already beating you down at that point and now you have to start over again AND deal with at least two creatures).
I don't at all agree with you on MBC being a bye. MBC tears this deck a new one. Sure, their creatures are crappy but the point you're missing is that their creatures all have built-in card advantage. This combined with Sign in Blood and all of their cycling lands lets them play the 1-for-1 game with removal spells until they just kill off your board and chip away at you with their 2/2s. Affinity does not always get to vomit out its hand on the 3rd or 4th turn, really it only does this about 1-2 times every 10 games while in a more typical game you're just playing out threats 1 by 1. If you're only playing one 4/4 a turn they can just match that with their Doom Blades, Victim of Nights, Geth's Verdicts, and other 1-for-1 removal until they exhaust your resources. The creature decks MBC has some trouble with are the ones that can put enough bodies on the board to overload their removal (Goblins can do this fairly well at times)
Ancient Grudge being "not good against you" I can't really agree with. You are playing an artifact deck - at worst it will be a 1-for-1 against you, and that's if they don't draw a Prism. Sure its effect may be less impactful if they draw it on turn 10 as opposed to in their opening hand but shattering your first two land drops can go quite a ways to derailing your chances in this matchup (i.e T2 Ancient Grudge into T3 Prism + Ancient Grudge flashback, something that has happened to me before against Post). Even just killing two Frogmites can be a pretty big inconvenience. Anyways like I said this is not an unwinnable matchup, especially with Pyroblast allowing you to disrupt them in games 2 and 3, but with all the removal they have access to if you don't get off to a quick start/get an opportunity to Atog-Fling them with their pants down then you are going to have trouble (though Atog-Fling often is a reasonable path to victory game 1 once they've stabilized. not so much games 2 and 3 if they're boarding hydroblasts).
I'll concede I maybe gave the deck a bit too much credit vs Nivix Fiend though I think it's at least even from the games I've played in the matchup. While it's not an ideal use, Fling is in fact a removal spell if you need it to be, and since they're so light on creatures this can often buy you enough time to kill them before they get another Fiend/Cyclops in play game 1. Post-board you get 4 Pyroblasts as additional ways to kill a Cyclops, plus some also board in other removal (I generally have a Doom Blade in my board at least)
Shaman isn't always GG out of Goblins (I say this as a Goblins pilot). It often can (and will) give you free wins, but there are many situations where Goblins either can't use it very profitably before it is killed (the deck typically runs 17 lands so being stuck on 2 is not an uncommon scenario in which case you'd only get to hit 1 land), or they draw it too late for it to matter (i.e once you already have an established board with 3+ 4/4s in play and you can just race them).
Delver fails by drawing either too many counterspells or too much clock. Too many counterspells means you can outdraw them. Too much clock means you can outrace them. Hitting that perfect balance is very tough. You can usually tell a good Delver player by the Steel Sabotage he boards in. He has those because you are a tough matchup and he knows it.
MBC is not much of a factor lately, but a removal-heavy variant can keep you out of the red zone with a barrage of Victim of Night and Grasp of Darkness. MBC that runs insufficient removal is a bye, though, since discard isn't really enough to stop you.
Dragonaut is tricky to beat because the builds vary so widely; you never know if you're going to have to beat an Apostle's Blessing or an Artful Dodge or a Mutagenic Growth or a Dispel or an Electrostatic Bolt, and they always seem to have Assault Strobe ready on the critical turn. You generally need your blockers to count, but you can't assume they don't have the evasion. I should really put the deck together - do we have a primer thread for it?
If I'm boarding in Ancient Grudge, I'm planning on using it against Myr Enforcer, allowing me to hold back more removal for Atog. Crushing two of your land early can be good, but only if I really, really don't have anything else on turn 3.
Gorilla Shaman has good games and bad games. Keeping that up is tricky, especially for Goblins, where a 1-lander is frequently a snap-keep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v61jcrN0HPQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcrM70l1OGs
There are 3 videos of me beating Affinity with my Delver deck. I also beat 2 Affinity decks in the 8:30 Daily last night that I didn't record. I think you're overestimating how good Affinity is against Delver, I'm never scared of Affinity when I play against them in Dailies. They get god-draws and are able to throw 3x 4/4's on the table on turn 3 or 4 occasionally, but then other times they just miss land drops or hit the wrong lands or lose to their own manabase.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Sometimes a 2 for 1 is the right play - they have a lot of card draw and very few of your creatures are relevant.
I've never heard of this.
That's what I would expect - the delver deck brings everything that Afiinity is weak against.
Has something changed with the Affinity or Delver decks that all of a sudden made this matchup so heavily favored for Delver as people claim? Or is it Affinity pilots making their builds worse and playing even worse? Or are we assuming that Delver players always play T1 Delver and flip on the play w/ T2 Cloud of Faeries, Spellstutter, Daze backup?
4 cyclers that can be countered and 4 thoughtcasts that require artifacts in play and can be countered isn't impressive...
The green 4/4 is good, but what else is there? Myr enforcer is a pain to cast and if he isn't countered can be bounced or even just ignored. Atog is almost unplayable in this matchup and somber hoverguard is just an incredibly crappy delver.
The bannings allowed delver to play steel sabotoge, frostburn weird, and the blue pacifism in their sb.
I've never heard of you!
It has a lot of artifacts, and for the purposes of what I said, that's all that matters.
EDIT: Also, if you're going to snippet-quote, keep the post-link in so people can see what's being said to whom.
If you're playing all that sideboard hate for a single match-up that kind of implies your edge against them isn't as big as you think it is.
I bet you thought that was clever.
No, it's not.
Affinity can bring in pyroblasts, eletrickery, dispel, and doom blade.
These decks have a large allotment for each other because they're the most popular - trying to get an edge over a deck that you expect to see frequently doesn't mean by default your g1 matchup isn't good.
Are you talking about that RW deck that uses sanctum gargoyle and kuldotha rebirth?
Man, you're a real ray of sunshine! Can you actually refute anything I said, or are you counting on rudeness to carry you through?
EDIT:
Yes, though my build skips the Gargoyle for a variety of reasons.
Actually kind of surprised Mezzel said this since his maindeck is what I play. I don't run Dazes in my list because I have 4 Snaps to deal with early 4/4s, and 2 Excludes means I'm not down a card when I make the Snap/Counterspell play. I think I win most often on their own mana issues though, and very aggressively Spellstuttering anything. I'm not afraid to Stutter Chromatic Stars even, which means they can only cast 1 Frogmite on turn 3, and then I can Stutter a Carapace Forger or Atog, or Counter/Exclude Myr Enforcers. After sideboard I bring in Snakeforms to deal with the 4/4s that do resolve if I don't just out tempo them with flipped Delvers and Snaps.
If anyone has any more insight into what I'm doing right against them or what they're doing wrong against me, let me know.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
I'm not going to bother refuting someone who seemingly hasn't even played the deck in question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybGOT4d2Hs8
I noticed what a lot of the good Affinity players used to do was just build up artifact count and then flood the board on a single turn with all the creatures. Short of the flipped T1 Delver I don't think the average Delver deck really has a great clock and actually not a ton of counters. Maybe you can counter them 1:1 if they're only playing 1 threat a turn but that approach seems to be the right way to overwhelm Delver which is short on mana and counters.
I think the key is probably focusing on the 4/4s and Atog. Everything else is secondary and not a huge deal. Not having Daze and using Exclude is also huge. Every Delver player really should consider that.
Not at all, Affinity IS a poor matchup for Delver. Of course, Delver being Delver pretty well any matchup is winnable but those here saying Delver is favored are mistaken. It is definitely the other way around.
Though I have to say this is a good point, more Delver players really should do this as it often messes with Affinity a lot even though it might not look like it on the surface. I always found many Delver players I faced were too proud to "waste" their Sprites on a Chromatic Star or a Prophetic Prism when really these are the nuts and bolts of what makes Affinity work. Disrupting Affinity early and establishing a clock is the most reliable way for Delver to win. All that being said the matchup is still in Affinity's favor but a good Delver player can certainly gain percentage points in this way.