Lately, Pauper community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Pauper. Whether or not Pauper has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Pauper staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Pauper issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
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Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
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Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Prohibited topics and behavior
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Those are my gun-to-my-head, you only get 4 cards. I could go on and suggest other improvements to the format like banning Bogles into the ground and outright banning the Tron lands among other things, but these are the most pressing issues facing the format.
I disagree with those that think that Monarchy is a problem. It wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have to fight through 8 one sided fogs a game. While I generally support banning the problem itself instead of the support for the problem, Prismatic Strands being a one sided fog with EZCast flashback is the problem. It's the only degenerate card in Boros Monarch.
Augur is just fine, Stompy has plenty of ways of killing x/3's, Stompy players just won't play Porcelain Legionnaire for whatever reason. Ban Augur and all that happens is that U/B Delver runs Elusive Spellfist instead and the deck is just as gross.
I've played against well played, well built Tron decks in paper. Nothing really beats it, especially since the downshift of Fire & Ice. Unlike MTGO, there is no clicking or chess clock holding it back, it beats aggro and burn 50% of the time while having 90/10 matchups against everything that can't win by turn 5.
Ghostly Flicker and Displace is most of the problem and getting rid of them probably fixes Tron. Other Tron strategies like eggs + Fangren Marauder, Rhystic Circle, Dawnglare Invoker, and big bois can all be interacted with.
Overall I think that if nothing changes, no one will be playing this format in a year. There are two groups of Pauper players, those that have correctly ascertained the format's true power level and play exclusively power decks, and those that either intentionally or out of ignorance have their head buried in the sand.
The problem is that people who don't like this format quit playing it or never begin playing it to begin with. So when asking for the opinions of people about bans all you're going to be left with are the people who like the format because everyone with critiques of it are absent because of natural selection.
The guy who hates playing against Tron just stops showing up. The guy with his fun brew deck shows up and gets reamed by Kiln Fiend + Lightning Bolt + Mutagenic Growth + Temur Battle Rage for 27 before he can possibly do anything by some annoying stoner, and simply decides to stop showing up. Or some guy Yu-Gi-Oh's you on turn 1 with One Land Spy. This format is filled with degenerate, zero sum fun nonsense that drags the format down and keeps people away.
To put it bluntly, only interactive Magic counts as Magic and there is no point to the game it it's not interactive. Playing against Tron is not interactive. Playing against Delver decks that have access to Gush and literal Force of Will (It's even better since it gets Gurmag Angler out faster LOL) is not interactive. No tier 1 decks in this format are interactive besides for Boros Monarch, and that's only tier 1 because people haven't quite caught on to just how little Tron cares about fair decks.
Wow, I don't remember ever seeing so much written about justifications for bannings like this. I like the attention Pauper is getting.
We understand the possibility that weakening blue tempo decks may cause a rise in the popularity of Tron decks. However, we believe that this combination of bans will result in a healthier mix of aggro, tempo, control, combo, and midrange that can adjust to balance out each other's populations. We'll continue to monitor the metagame as it evolves in practice, but need to allow time for it to readjust rather than making assumptions about what the results will be. And as always, we'll continue to listen to community feedback.
When I saw the bannings, this was my first thought. I am so sick and tired of tron decks, but more particularly Ghostly Flicker and its ilk causing really stale games. I miss the days of good old RUG Tron beating face with Fangren Marauder and Rolling Thunder.
Hopefully, their assumptions pan out and a greater variety of decks will weaken the Tron strategy thanks to the bannings.
Do you think Foil is still playable without Gush? I have difficulty seeing it as more than a 1-of, now.
Wow, I don't remember ever seeing so much written about justifications for bannings like this. I like the attention Pauper is getting.
We understand the possibility that weakening blue tempo decks may cause a rise in the popularity of Tron decks. However, we believe that this combination of bans will result in a healthier mix of aggro, tempo, control, combo, and midrange that can adjust to balance out each other's populations. We'll continue to monitor the metagame as it evolves in practice, but need to allow time for it to readjust rather than making assumptions about what the results will be. And as always, we'll continue to listen to community feedback.
When I saw the bannings, this was my first thought. I am so sick and tired of tron decks, but more particularly Ghostly Flicker and its ilk causing really stale games. I miss the days of good old RUG Tron beating face with Fangren Marauder and Rolling Thunder.
Hopefully, their assumptions pan out and a greater variety of decks will weaken the Tron strategy thanks to the bannings.
Do you think Foil is still playable without Gush? I have difficulty seeing it as more than a 1-of, now.
Deprive instead of 4 Counterspells + 2-ish Foil in Delver seems reasonable.
Wizards has finally done it. Pauper is now a sanctioned format both online and in paper.
Not only this, but there is one unified ban list for both, which adds all the cards that previously were not available online into the format. That's something like over 400 cards.
This also means that cards like Chainer's Edict and Battle Screech, which were originally only commons online, should also be considered legal in paper (if that was a issue or anyone).
I can't express how happy I am with this change. This is a great day for Pauper and for Magic: the Gathering.
I have played two paper pauper events, and am now actually considering ditching Saturday side events at SCG in favor of a weekend pauper tournament. At the very least, now my area should have several more tournaments pop up.
Desert seems quite likely as well as the Red and Blue Elemental Blasts in certain sideboards.
Any other cards stand out?
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Long term, I think 90% of the impact from Unification is gonna just be making the format way more accessible and easier to understand. I was at one paper Pauper tournament (using MTGO rules), where a guy got a match loss for using Red Elemental Blast instead of Pyroblast, and he stormed out in anger. And I'm sure this has happened plenty of times.
The actual impact on the tournament meta will probably be pretty light. Except for Goblin Grenade, which is quite legit. I think Unstable Mutation might be good in the Mono-U Prowess/Blue Blitz type deck with Elusive Spellfist and Sky Theater Strix...deluxeicoff has been playing a deck like that on his streams, and settled on Clout of the Dominus in the deck...maybe Unstable is better?
Oh, and for all people playing Fog in various decks. Undergrowth is new a strictly superior version. Who knows where that extra ability would actually come in use, but hey, it's there.
I've played against Zubera Storm using Ashnod's Altar twice in MTGO Leagues so far. It does make the deck a bit better, along with Prismite (a surprisingly key piece now), but it's still not Tier 1.
Some other random new Unification cards I've marked as "possibly playable" that aren't already mentioned everywhere else:
What are some good ways to combat it (for aggro and weenie decks) outside the usual LD and toughness buff strategies? Ideas for MTGO? Camel I believe is only good in Paper.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
What are some good ways to combat it (for aggro and weenie decks) outside the usual LD and toughness buff strategies? Ideas for MTGO? Camel I believe is only good in Paper.
Basically what RDW has already been doing: Don't play any creatures with only 1 Toughness.
If they get 2, they're still down 2 lands and losing life every turn, and it might be tough for them to get out of your momentum.
Ashnod's Altar should be popping up somewhere in a combo deck. It's still a bit early to tell what will stand out.
This is complicated, but: Altar + Auramancer with Kaya's Ghostform then use Initiates of the Ebon Hand to turn the colorless mana to black mana. Sac Auramancer when it's enchanted, then return Ghostform and cast it for 1 mana. You end up netting one mana each time. Consume Spirit can use all that mana.
What are some good ways to combat it (for aggro and weenie decks) outside the usual LD and toughness buff strategies? Ideas for MTGO? Camel I believe is only good in Paper.
Basically what RDW has already been doing: Don't play any creatures with only 1 Toughness.
If they get 2, they're still down 2 lands and losing life every turn, and it might be tough for them to get out of your momentum.
Thanks but that really isn't a combat against it but a concession to the card. I found one single card and its not even that good that could be SB material in white, Field Surgeon. That's it. I guess for now its LD and toughness buffs. We really need Ghost Quarter in Pauper.
As for the above combo, its a 5 card combo. Interesting but as said far too complicated to be reliable it seems.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm personally waiting to see if some sort of Soldevi Adnate combo deck pops up. It seems that most of the pieces are in place - Tortured Existence as a recursion engine, Gurmag Angler as a creature that can generate more mana than it costs to cast. I'm mostly curious as to what the payoff would be - Soul Burn?
So when is Pauper actually going to be "unified"? There are paper versions legal that have never been "printed" on MTGO. I'd like to play these cards online but they aren't available. I have a hard time calling the format Unified when it isn't.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I wouldn't be surprised to see those cards as sideboard options regardless, given that Tron seems to be getting more popular.
Those cards don't actually beat Tron, they can just flicker their lands. Tron also doesn't really need big mana anyways, it only really needs 5-6 to start flicker looping.
Lately, Pauper community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Pauper. Whether or not Pauper has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Pauper staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Pauper issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Gush
Prismatic Strands
Ghostly Flicker & Displace.
Those are my gun-to-my-head, you only get 4 cards. I could go on and suggest other improvements to the format like banning Bogles into the ground and outright banning the Tron lands among other things, but these are the most pressing issues facing the format.
I disagree with those that think that Monarchy is a problem. It wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have to fight through 8 one sided fogs a game. While I generally support banning the problem itself instead of the support for the problem, Prismatic Strands being a one sided fog with EZCast flashback is the problem. It's the only degenerate card in Boros Monarch.
Augur is just fine, Stompy has plenty of ways of killing x/3's, Stompy players just won't play Porcelain Legionnaire for whatever reason. Ban Augur and all that happens is that U/B Delver runs Elusive Spellfist instead and the deck is just as gross.
I've played against well played, well built Tron decks in paper. Nothing really beats it, especially since the downshift of Fire & Ice. Unlike MTGO, there is no clicking or chess clock holding it back, it beats aggro and burn 50% of the time while having 90/10 matchups against everything that can't win by turn 5.
Ghostly Flicker and Displace is most of the problem and getting rid of them probably fixes Tron. Other Tron strategies like eggs + Fangren Marauder, Rhystic Circle, Dawnglare Invoker, and big bois can all be interacted with.
Overall I think that if nothing changes, no one will be playing this format in a year. There are two groups of Pauper players, those that have correctly ascertained the format's true power level and play exclusively power decks, and those that either intentionally or out of ignorance have their head buried in the sand.
The problem is that people who don't like this format quit playing it or never begin playing it to begin with. So when asking for the opinions of people about bans all you're going to be left with are the people who like the format because everyone with critiques of it are absent because of natural selection.
The guy who hates playing against Tron just stops showing up. The guy with his fun brew deck shows up and gets reamed by Kiln Fiend + Lightning Bolt + Mutagenic Growth + Temur Battle Rage for 27 before he can possibly do anything by some annoying stoner, and simply decides to stop showing up. Or some guy Yu-Gi-Oh's you on turn 1 with One Land Spy. This format is filled with degenerate, zero sum fun nonsense that drags the format down and keeps people away.
To put it bluntly, only interactive Magic counts as Magic and there is no point to the game it it's not interactive. Playing against Tron is not interactive. Playing against Delver decks that have access to Gush and literal Force of Will (It's even better since it gets Gurmag Angler out faster LOL) is not interactive. No tier 1 decks in this format are interactive besides for Boros Monarch, and that's only tier 1 because people haven't quite caught on to just how little Tron cares about fair decks.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Daze
Gitaxian Probe
Gush
link to the announcement can be found here.
When I saw the bannings, this was my first thought. I am so sick and tired of tron decks, but more particularly Ghostly Flicker and its ilk causing really stale games. I miss the days of good old RUG Tron beating face with Fangren Marauder and Rolling Thunder.
Hopefully, their assumptions pan out and a greater variety of decks will weaken the Tron strategy thanks to the bannings.
Do you think Foil is still playable without Gush? I have difficulty seeing it as more than a 1-of, now.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Deprive instead of 4 Counterspells + 2-ish Foil in Delver seems reasonable.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Wizards has finally done it. Pauper is now a sanctioned format both online and in paper.
Not only this, but there is one unified ban list for both, which adds all the cards that previously were not available online into the format. That's something like over 400 cards.
This is likely to change up Pauper in some way. Things like Merchant Scroll, Desert, Darkness, Ashnod's Altar, Sunken City, Goblin Grenade, Flood, Crown-Hunter Hireling (if they publish it online), Feldon's Cane, Unstable Mutation, Red Elemental Blast, Blue Elemental Blast and many more are going to make their way online!
This also means that cards like Chainer's Edict and Battle Screech, which were originally only commons online, should also be considered legal in paper (if that was a issue or anyone).
I can't express how happy I am with this change. This is a great day for Pauper and for Magic: the Gathering.
Link to the Prof's video: Prof's Video
Link of cards added to the online pool: New cards to MTGO
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I saw this video last night from the prof. I had to check the timestamp to make sure it wasn't an april fools joke.
I am already jamming Goblin Grenade.
Desert seems quite likely as well as the Red and Blue Elemental Blasts in certain sideboards.
Any other cards stand out?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Ashnod's Altar should be popping up somewhere in a combo deck. It's still a bit early to tell what will stand out.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
The actual impact on the tournament meta will probably be pretty light. Except for Goblin Grenade, which is quite legit. I think Unstable Mutation might be good in the Mono-U Prowess/Blue Blitz type deck with Elusive Spellfist and Sky Theater Strix...deluxeicoff has been playing a deck like that on his streams, and settled on Clout of the Dominus in the deck...maybe Unstable is better?
Oh, and for all people playing Fog in various decks. Undergrowth is new a strictly superior version. Who knows where that extra ability would actually come in use, but hey, it's there.
I've played against Zubera Storm using Ashnod's Altar twice in MTGO Leagues so far. It does make the deck a bit better, along with Prismite (a surprisingly key piece now), but it's still not Tier 1.
Some other random new Unification cards I've marked as "possibly playable" that aren't already mentioned everywhere else:
What are some good ways to combat it (for aggro and weenie decks) outside the usual LD and toughness buff strategies? Ideas for MTGO? Camel I believe is only good in Paper.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Basically what RDW has already been doing: Don't play any creatures with only 1 Toughness.
If they get 2, they're still down 2 lands and losing life every turn, and it might be tough for them to get out of your momentum.
This is complicated, but: Altar + Auramancer with Kaya's Ghostform then use Initiates of the Ebon Hand to turn the colorless mana to black mana. Sac Auramancer when it's enchanted, then return Ghostform and cast it for 1 mana. You end up netting one mana each time. Consume Spirit can use all that mana.
Thanks but that really isn't a combat against it but a concession to the card. I found one single card and its not even that good that could be SB material in white, Field Surgeon. That's it.
As for the above combo, its a 5 card combo. Interesting but as said far too complicated to be reliable it seems.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Those cards don't actually beat Tron, they can just flicker their lands. Tron also doesn't really need big mana anyways, it only really needs 5-6 to start flicker looping.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.