This won't achieve all that much. Still, Gush was unnecessary, and any deck that was using it really can use Fathom Seer and be strong enough. Gitaxian Probe is just a design mistake and not all that great in a Burn heavy meta, and Pauper's always liable to have legacy-grade burn around. And Daze was only really played in one deck and did make it a bit too good (read better than it had to be to still be the strongest deck).
So yeah, some cards which ought to not have been legal anyway aren't legal anymore, Daze is out which is fine, I guess, and not much has changed. Big whoop.
One thing that they did achieve is that if you want a "gush effect" in your deck and thus run Fathom Seer, you'll have fewer things to always draw with Augur of Bolas and to always flip Delver with, so Augur might be the thing that gets replaced in UB Delver and Tireless Tribe. Tribe never needed Gush per se, anyway, just the effect and it can still kill you same as ever on turn 4 (or earlier if on the draw), which is fine, and Delver still has Angler holding the fort. Unless literally nobody even tries, we haven't seen the last of either of them, but they might not be quite as obnoxious as they have been lately.
"Masques Block is the worst block ever! There's not one decent card in there! The whole internet say's so, you're literally the only person who ever said it was good!" - random noob in a conversation with an Eldrazi.
Finally validation of what I was trying to get across. Its a great day today.
Fathom Seer is a strict downgrade and much slower and less flexible. It takes 3 mana to cast and has to be played on the opponents main phase. I'm glad Gush is gone.
Same for the other two as well. Now when blue keeps showing up maybe they will think about a Delver, Augur or Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain ban as well. I shouldn't get greedy, I am ecstatic at this announcement.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Finally validation of what I was trying to get across. Its a great day today.
Fathom Seer is a strict downgrade and much slower and less flexible. It takes 3 mana to cast and has to be played on the opponents main phase. I'm glad Gush is gone.
Same for the other two as well. Now when blue keeps showing up maybe they will think about a Delver, Augur or Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain ban as well. I shouldn't get greedy, I am ecstatic at this announcement.
Firstly, do you know how Morph cards work? You play 3 generic mana to morph them in as a 2/2 facedown. Then to flip them over you have to pay their morph cost, which in Fathom Seer's case is the "cost" of returning two islands to your hand. After it resolves you flip it at any time you could pay the cost to unmorph, not just on your opponent's main phase.
Fathom Seer, while overall a worse card, is NOT a strict downgrade.
It's a Gush that Ninja can pick up. It's a Gush that Flicker effects can double dip with.
I play it in my pauper cube. In a limited environment at least it's just as good if not better than Gush, as are a lot of "______ on a stick" creature versions of spells.
This is all purely academic though, it's not as if Tron gives a ***** about what most/all other decks do.
Fathom Seer is a downgrade, yes, but it also has it's own perks. Can't be countered by Pyroblast, can't be countered by Dispel and Negate, leaves behind a nice blocker or eats edicts. Inside Out lost speed, sure, but that deck in particular never cared about Gush (the card itself), just the effect, and would've both existed and worked even if Gush was banned all along. That's the hilarity of the situation. Unless the Probe ban proves too much due to the loss of information it provides on when the coast is clear, Tribe Combo might have actually gotten more resilient.
Oh and our local running gag about Masques being the worst block ever just got even more hilarious as it gained a punchline - "Masques is the worst block ever, not one good card in it!" - "Yeah, not even half the cards on the Pauper banlist are from Masques! Completely lousy block!"
"Masques Block is the worst block ever! There's not one decent card in there! The whole internet say's so, you're literally the only person who ever said it was good!" - random noob in a conversation with an Eldrazi.
Yes I do. I also know that your opponent can play Gush on turn 2 with 2 islands either on his/her turn or wait and play it at instant speed as late as your end step. Seer requires 3 MANA (not 2) to cast face down so turn 3 at the earliest with no ramp and on his/her turn during mainphase. Yes they can Morph/Unmorph without using the stack at that point or at any point thereafter. But the point is it isn't as flexible as Gush or as fast as Gush. It may be more resilient (with the 1/3 body) but it is slower and more narrow, it is a strict downgrade.
As for Tron, if there are more aggro decks being unshackled by the control of Blue then Tron better speed up its clock.
The whole point, blue gets weakened a bit. I am ecstatic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yes I do. I also know that your opponent can play Gush on turn 2 with 2 islands either on his/her turn or wait and play it at instant speed as late as your end step. Seer requires 3 MANA (not 2) to cast face down so turn 3 at the earliest with no ramp and on his/her turn during mainphase. Yes they can Morph/Unmorph without using the stack at that point or at any point thereafter. But the point is it isn't as flexible as Gush or as fast as Gush. It may be more resilient (with the 1/3 body) but it is slower and more narrow, it is a strict downgrade.
As for Tron, if there are more aggro decks being unshackled by the control of Blue then Tron better speed up its clock.
The whole point, blue gets weakened a bit. I am ecstatic.
Aggro doesn't beat Tron. Not with all of the fogs, flicker loops, Fire/Ice, stonehorn dignitaries, Pulse of murasa, hydro/pyroblast, etc.
It's like a 50/50 matchup, maybe 60/40 against Tron *at worst* meanwhile Tron has 90/10 matchups against everything else.
I just wanted to point something out, my crew and I have been discussing it over here IRL. The Gush and Probe ban make Tribe and Blitz less deadly, but they were kinda overly deadly for any format, let alone an all-commons one. But the Daze ban is actually a huuuuuuuuuge boon to either strat. Both decks are spellslinger decks that want to chain a few spells and smack you for 20-ish. Apart from removal, the biggest obstacle to these decks working was actually Daze, as they couldn't really play around it and still be able to chain enough (or the exact necessary) spells as early as they would want. For them, Daze was not only a problem on turn 1 or 2, it just never stopped being a problem throughout the whole game, since what they're trying to do would only leave them with Daze-tax mana up if they were completely flooded. Not being open to getting dazed mid-spellchain (or having your last key spell dazed) despite what the other guy was doing is a pretty big deal, honestly.
It's also quite a bit more difficult for anyone to just counter their early threat while also developing their own board position (something UB Delver was notorious for), which somewhat reduces their need to also be ridiculously fast to keep up.
So yeah, that's what the Daze ban was about. Gush and Probe were "Ok you silly bastards, slow down for a turn, use sensible methods to do your thing" and the Daze ban was "But you don't have to race Delver so hard or try to pull it off against truly silly bush**t disruption".
I think that's how these bans work. And I also don't think any of the three decks affected are done with the meta due to them. It might turn out to be quite the opposite. Blitz and Tribe are still spellchain decks with powerful blue cantrips at their disposal to dig for their chain pieces, and Delver still has the Tarmofish and the silly 3/2 for 1 along with blue digging & counters and black answers.
"Masques Block is the worst block ever! There's not one decent card in there! The whole internet say's so, you're literally the only person who ever said it was good!" - random noob in a conversation with an Eldrazi.
Okay now that blue has been hit with a ban I am going to be closing this thread at the end of next week as we have an offical state of pauper thread that is intended to be the primary ban list discussion location while also talking the borader state of the format. As pauper becomes its own subsection we will have more designated areas to discuss specific topics and while the fourm is young I am letting things take thier time to move to thier sections. I will give a week for discussions to wrap up or migrate to the state of pauper before I lock this up on Friday May 31st.
I think that Prismatic Strands and Ghostly Flicker & Displace still need to be banned. Tron is way too good and while Prismatic Strands is normally a tool of fair Boros decks, there is nothing stopping it from being incorporated into Tron.
I saw that last night on MTGO, someone running Prismatic Strands with Stonehorn Dignitary, Thraben Inspector, Kor Skyfisher, and the rest of the normal Mully D Mnemonic Wall Flicker Tron package. It was only a matter of time before someone played enough white creatures in the deck to enable Strands.
Further slanting the burn and aggro matchup in Tron's favor.
The deck is pretty consistent. Everything in the deck is sort of a 4+ of since Mystical Teachings are copies 3-4 of all of the 2-ofs that the deck is composed entirely of. One could probably run a 2 mana Transmute spell in the 75 in order to fetch the Circle of Protection you need, also.
This problem with this format is that it's not taken very seriously, so no one *really* breaks it. No one figures out a way to further refine the top tier netdeck, or cares enough to main just Tron or just Izzet Blitz or just Bogles online. So any problems that the format has just end up festering and many popular netdecks are misbuilt.
Pauper's cheap nature also works against it in this regard. People have a dozen decks and never get good with any particular one, and they aren't capable of refining them either.
I think that Prismatic Strands and Ghostly Flicker & Displace still need to be banned. Tron is way too good and while Prismatic Strands is normally a tool of fair Boros decks, there is nothing stopping it from being incorporated into Tron.
I agree with those bans. Throw in Moment's Peace as well.
Even after these bans there is still going to be a ton of blue out there and I don't think the overall meta is going to shift much, probably just a shuffling of the deck chairs at Tier 1 and that is it.
Pauper needs some new blood in the way of things I have mentioned before.
Cannot be countered
Protection from Instants
Cannot be sacrificed
1 or 2 man-lands
Opponent can't draw more than 1 card a turn
more GY hate
more sweeper spells
better stat playable Haste creatures
viable discard payoff cards (ala the Rack)
The nature of the format means none of these will probably ever see the light of day at common. But if they don't the format will be "solved" then it will become stale as the same old tier 1 decks win over and over without enough bans or infusion of impact cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Wow, so I guess pauper isn't much different than legacy or modern!
I'm probably going to still build a couple of decks because they are really cheap, I'd be less enthusiastic without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain being legal though. As much as haters going to want to hate on big blue cantrips and Delver they are also a draw to other players being in the format in the first place. Also banning flicker effects seem silly to me too. I always love a good Tron ban but are flicker effects really that bad? Sorry if that last line was super ignorant. I'm just used to Tron doing truly terrifying things like T3 Karn and T4 Ulamog!!
Yes they are in my book. One of the reasons I rarely play the format right now. It isn't fun to be locked out of a game if you are on the receiving end. I won't get back into Pauper without some cleaning up via bans.
PS: This is a kind of old thread I started about 1.5 years ago, what was said then may not have precise relevance now.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Gush , Daze and Gitaxian Probe are banned it seems effective from the 24th.
This won't achieve all that much. Still, Gush was unnecessary, and any deck that was using it really can use Fathom Seer and be strong enough. Gitaxian Probe is just a design mistake and not all that great in a Burn heavy meta, and Pauper's always liable to have legacy-grade burn around. And Daze was only really played in one deck and did make it a bit too good (read better than it had to be to still be the strongest deck).
So yeah, some cards which ought to not have been legal anyway aren't legal anymore, Daze is out which is fine, I guess, and not much has changed. Big whoop.
One thing that they did achieve is that if you want a "gush effect" in your deck and thus run Fathom Seer, you'll have fewer things to always draw with Augur of Bolas and to always flip Delver with, so Augur might be the thing that gets replaced in UB Delver and Tireless Tribe. Tribe never needed Gush per se, anyway, just the effect and it can still kill you same as ever on turn 4 (or earlier if on the draw), which is fine, and Delver still has Angler holding the fort. Unless literally nobody even tries, we haven't seen the last of either of them, but they might not be quite as obnoxious as they have been lately.
Fathom Seer is a strict downgrade and much slower and less flexible. It takes 3 mana to cast and has to be played on the opponents main phase. I'm glad Gush is gone.
Same for the other two as well. Now when blue keeps showing up maybe they will think about a Delver, Augur or Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain ban as well. I shouldn't get greedy, I am ecstatic at this announcement.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Firstly, do you know how Morph cards work? You play 3 generic mana to morph them in as a 2/2 facedown. Then to flip them over you have to pay their morph cost, which in Fathom Seer's case is the "cost" of returning two islands to your hand. After it resolves you flip it at any time you could pay the cost to unmorph, not just on your opponent's main phase.
Fathom Seer, while overall a worse card, is NOT a strict downgrade.
It's a Gush that Ninja can pick up. It's a Gush that Flicker effects can double dip with.
Perhaps someone will figure out a viable Delver Arcane package and play Veil of Secrecy and Consuming Vortex and Eye of nowhere and go to town bouncing everything.
I play it in my pauper cube. In a limited environment at least it's just as good if not better than Gush, as are a lot of "______ on a stick" creature versions of spells.
This is all purely academic though, it's not as if Tron gives a ***** about what most/all other decks do.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
Oh and our local running gag about Masques being the worst block ever just got even more hilarious as it gained a punchline - "Masques is the worst block ever, not one good card in it!" - "Yeah, not even half the cards on the Pauper banlist are from Masques! Completely lousy block!"
Yes I do. I also know that your opponent can play Gush on turn 2 with 2 islands either on his/her turn or wait and play it at instant speed as late as your end step. Seer requires 3 MANA (not 2) to cast face down so turn 3 at the earliest with no ramp and on his/her turn during mainphase. Yes they can Morph/Unmorph without using the stack at that point or at any point thereafter. But the point is it isn't as flexible as Gush or as fast as Gush. It may be more resilient (with the 1/3 body) but it is slower and more narrow, it is a strict downgrade.
As for Tron, if there are more aggro decks being unshackled by the control of Blue then Tron better speed up its clock.
The whole point, blue gets weakened a bit. I am ecstatic.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Aggro doesn't beat Tron. Not with all of the fogs, flicker loops, Fire/Ice, stonehorn dignitaries, Pulse of murasa, hydro/pyroblast, etc.
It's like a 50/50 matchup, maybe 60/40 against Tron *at worst* meanwhile Tron has 90/10 matchups against everything else.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
It's also quite a bit more difficult for anyone to just counter their early threat while also developing their own board position (something UB Delver was notorious for), which somewhat reduces their need to also be ridiculously fast to keep up.
So yeah, that's what the Daze ban was about. Gush and Probe were "Ok you silly bastards, slow down for a turn, use sensible methods to do your thing" and the Daze ban was "But you don't have to race Delver so hard or try to pull it off against truly silly bush**t disruption".
I think that's how these bans work. And I also don't think any of the three decks affected are done with the meta due to them. It might turn out to be quite the opposite. Blitz and Tribe are still spellchain decks with powerful blue cantrips at their disposal to dig for their chain pieces, and Delver still has the Tarmofish and the silly 3/2 for 1 along with blue digging & counters and black answers.
If you have questions on this please let me know.
Ulka
I saw that last night on MTGO, someone running Prismatic Strands with Stonehorn Dignitary, Thraben Inspector, Kor Skyfisher, and the rest of the normal Mully D Mnemonic Wall Flicker Tron package. It was only a matter of time before someone played enough white creatures in the deck to enable Strands.
Further slanting the burn and aggro matchup in Tron's favor.
The deck is pretty consistent. Everything in the deck is sort of a 4+ of since Mystical Teachings are copies 3-4 of all of the 2-ofs that the deck is composed entirely of. One could probably run a 2 mana Transmute spell in the 75 in order to fetch the Circle of Protection you need, also.
This problem with this format is that it's not taken very seriously, so no one *really* breaks it. No one figures out a way to further refine the top tier netdeck, or cares enough to main just Tron or just Izzet Blitz or just Bogles online. So any problems that the format has just end up festering and many popular netdecks are misbuilt.
Pauper's cheap nature also works against it in this regard. People have a dozen decks and never get good with any particular one, and they aren't capable of refining them either.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.
I agree with those bans. Throw in Moment's Peace as well.
Even after these bans there is still going to be a ton of blue out there and I don't think the overall meta is going to shift much, probably just a shuffling of the deck chairs at Tier 1 and that is it.
Pauper needs some new blood in the way of things I have mentioned before.
Cannot be countered
Protection from Instants
Cannot be sacrificed
1 or 2 man-lands
Opponent can't draw more than 1 card a turn
more GY hate
more sweeper spells
better stat playable Haste creatures
viable discard payoff cards (ala the Rack)
The nature of the format means none of these will probably ever see the light of day at common. But if they don't the format will be "solved" then it will become stale as the same old tier 1 decks win over and over without enough bans or infusion of impact cards.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm probably going to still build a couple of decks because they are really cheap, I'd be less enthusiastic without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain being legal though. As much as haters going to want to hate on big blue cantrips and Delver they are also a draw to other players being in the format in the first place. Also banning flicker effects seem silly to me too. I always love a good Tron ban but are flicker effects really that bad? Sorry if that last line was super ignorant. I'm just used to Tron doing truly terrifying things like T3 Karn and T4 Ulamog!!
Yes they are in my book. One of the reasons I rarely play the format right now. It isn't fun to be locked out of a game if you are on the receiving end. I won't get back into Pauper without some cleaning up via bans.
PS: This is a kind of old thread I started about 1.5 years ago, what was said then may not have precise relevance now.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."