Have you thought about Wretched Anurid as a trade off for Carnophage? Can't be turned off but can also just sit there without throwing damage your way.
Yeah, it's been tried, but at least for me I'm not a fan. Tokens decks, other weenie decks, etc. can be a literal pain. It's also 1.5 power per mana compared to 2 power per mana for Carnie. If you're considering this versus Sangrophage that might be a closer battle, and depending on your expected opponents I might then prefer Anurid. (My deck runs neither Anurid nor Sangrophage.)
My bad, I meant to write Sangrophage. I agree with you in re: Anurid v. Carnophage, the carno is definitely better. I've been running this with some success. The one restriction I have on the deck is that it cost less than 2 tix. So far I've spent nothing on it (free tix from Cardhoarder). Any suggestions/rando cards are welcome:
Is the Vault Skirge any good without pump? I'm looking into him but at .07 tix he's somewhat expensive in my book. I definitely agree with Touch of Moonglove as it's a perfect way to use up your creatures as chumps when they get outclassed while at the same time hitting for an extra 2 damage and removing a creature. Why Paralyze over some other direct removal? It's a cool card but it leaves something on the field.
Like with all removal, it depends on the target, and by extension your expected meta. "Why Grasp of Darkness? It costs twice as much as Paralyze and doesn't kill Gurmag Angler." Paralyze is slow and doesn't remove, but it only costs one and hits pretty much anything.
Excellent point. After looking over my own list it seems like Paralyze would actually be much more effective than some other removal options I have. After some play testing I also found I was getting too many two drops and not enough one drops. Also, while Unnatural Endurance is a neat combat trick and damage addition, I think swapping it out in favor of Sign in Blood makes more sense given the fact that it gives me the two damage I need while also fueling my hand after I drop half of it to Dark Ritual. I also dropped Order of the Ebon Hand in favor of more Skittering Skirge and an extra one drop due to extra toughness. Plus, while the Hand is great against white matchups and occasionally getting in some game winning damage, it more often turns out to be an easily killed body or ineffective use of mana. Also, after reading some of the posts here I'm thinking of ditching Wretched Anurid entirely. If I can power him out with a one drop one T1 it's great, but otherwise he's either a "win more" card or just a beater with drawback ranging from meh to terrible depending on the match up. Thoughts?
Testing with this deck last night netted me three wins out of the three games I played (I play in the "just for fun" as I prefer seeing rogue decks to net decks).
I've also been thinking about including Piranha Marsh in place of four swamps for some extra damage, although I'm not sure if those extra few points are a good trade off for getting stalled by the ETB tapped effect.
I feel like you really should consider Foul-Tongue Shriek. The card is so good with cards like Lacerator, Carnophage, Sangrophage, and Vault Skirge.
For what its worth, Vault Skirge is definitely worth it as a 1-drop, optional 2-drop, because it is evasive and helps stabilize your life total.
Pulse Tracker/Thornbow Archer I think should be a 4-of. Ideally you want as many 2 power 1 drops as you can get. That lets you REALLY maximize your Dark Rituals. Its the difference of 6 power on board turn 1 and 3 or 4 power on board turn 1. Having so many 2 drops is really a liability and makes Dark Ritual worse.
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Many thanks for the input, I'm glad this thread is still going. After playing a few games I agree that I'd rather have a hand full of one drops than two, in most cases. After a bit of retooling this is what I've got so far:
I like how your deck is starting to look like mine.
With so many creatures, I prefer my Skirge over yours though. Consider an Unearth or two if you stick with Skittering.
I didn't play Browbeat, I don't play Vexing Devil, and I wouldn't play Dash. If it were a straight copy of Counterspell that cost BB I still probably wouldn't play it in this deck. I'd much rather run Duress (and in fact I do), partially because it costs half as much, partially because it gives me intel on the rest of their hand, and partially because (compared to Dash) it doesn't let your opponent choose the mode that hurts them least. Lastly, despite my build being closer to aggro-control than a pure aggro/suicide build, I prefer proactive cards like Duress in this deck.
I would have said the same about Dash years ago though. Generally, impressions on weak cards only change when there's a new card/mechanic for the older card to abuse (Infect made Invigorate playable), or something's banned (Cloud of Faeries > Faerie Miscreant), or the metagame shifts so drastically that an old card has new utility (can't think of an example in Pauper). If you can't identify such obvious changes, there's likely little need to revisit previously-discarded options.
They are starting to show some similarities Unearth is a cool card but way too expensive for my taste (in terms of tix). I had thought about using Undying Evil as a tool against removal and to make the Skittering more effective in a pinch.
While I agree with your assessment of some of the cards you mentioned, and while I do like duress (and run it in my SB), I can't help but feel as though there are many situations where a Dash would have helped quite a bit. Not many people see it coming, and even if they do, it forces them to make a hard choice that benefits me either way. It my eyes, it essentially works as removal or life loss, and frankly, in a deck that's on the more aggro side, either option helps me. I may consider dropping the Moongloves in place of it. Also, as herenorthere mentioned, Foul-Tongue Shriek is a really neat card to have 2 of in the deck. When the board stalls I simply swing with everything and that tactic actually closed out two games for me last night.
I've also been tinkering with Blood Seeker as a SB card against tokens, elves, etc. It worked out pretty well for me in the few games that I brought him in. Against elves it almost completely crippled my opponent, and against pauper soul sisters it made his life gain completely irrelevant.
I came across this article a few days ago and was intrigued by the idea in the last deck. I feel like I don't see many of these black aggro builds around and I'm always interested in new cards and new ideas regarding it. After playing quite a few games with the deck I can definitively say that it can compete with most, if not all, of the decks that I see in the meta. I hope the interest, and discussion, continues.
They are starting to show some similarities Unearth is a cool card but way too expensive for my taste (in terms of tix). I had thought about using Undying Evil as a tool against removal and to make the Skittering more effective in a pinch.
While I agree with your assessment of some of the cards you mentioned, and while I do like duress (and run it in my SB), I can't help but feel as though there are many situations where a Dash would have helped quite a bit. Not many people see it coming, and even if they do, it forces them to make a hard choice that benefits me either way. It my eyes, it essentially works as removal or life loss, and frankly, in a deck that's on the more aggro side, either option helps me. I may consider dropping the Moongloves in place of it. Also, as herenorthere mentioned, Foul-Tongue Shriek is a really neat card to have 2 of in the deck. When the board stalls I simply swing with everything and that tactic actually closed out two games for me last night.
I've also been tinkering with Blood Seeker as a SB card against tokens, elves, etc. It worked out pretty well for me in the few games that I brought him in. Against elves it almost completely crippled my opponent, and against pauper soul sisters it made his life gain completely irrelevant.
I came across this article a few days ago and was intrigued by the idea in the last deck. I feel like I don't see many of these black aggro builds around and I'm always interested in new cards and new ideas regarding it. After playing quite a few games with the deck I can definitively say that it can compete with most, if not all, of the decks that I see in the meta. I hope the interest, and discussion, continues.
Shrivel is also really good against Elves. White has a few more ways of making Shrivel bad though. In a lot of cases Shrivel doesn't hurt you as much as it does your opponent because so many of your creatures have 2 toughness. However, against Elves and mono-G Stompy, Thornbow seems really bad. Pulse Tracker might be better here (but dies to your own Shrivel). What has your experience been? Does the extra toughness really help?
How's Wicked Akuba? How often do you have mana left over to activate it? I've tried it in MBC in place of Witches before and in a deck that regularly has 3-5 open mana (depending on what you are doing), it can straight wreck a person. With so little mana in the deck here though, I wonder if it isn't better used as something else.
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I used shrivel before bringing in the Blood Seeker and while shrivel was helpful, I ultimately just wanted more damage to pile on. Plus, if all I had were some Dauthi Horrors then my board state would get hit just as much. What I also found was that 1/1s, while prevalent, generally do not make up a majority of the deck, making the shrivel dead. Thus, I would rather have something that keeps pushing damage and forcing the opponent to think long and hard before bringing out a bunch of chump blockers.
I like the Thornbow. I agree that he's kind of crap against elves and stompy, but I don't see that as a reason to ditch entirely. I don't encounter a ton of either deck as most people play delver, angler, tron, or some rogue deck. The one extra point of toughness lets him trade with 1/1s and win while also being more resilient against removal. Plus, if I throw a Bonesplitter on him he becomes much more relevant.
Wicked Akuba is dope. As Upkeep has mentioned, he is essentially a must block in most situations. Even if I only have 2-3 mana hanging around that matters quite a bit in a deck that pushes damage like this one. What some others may not have mentioned is that the Akuba also makes your late game Dark Rituals a sudden source of 3 damage out of freakin nowhere. I played a game where my opponent blocked two pumped up 2/2s (via Bonesplitter) and let the Akuba through as I had not equipped him, I had two Dark Rituals in my hand and he was toast. At worst, he forces the opponent to remove or block. At best, he gets crazy damage through at later stages. You could swap out the moongloves for Unnatural Endurance to be extra tricky and keep the Akuba alive.
That being said, if there's a better alternative I'm all ears. Just keep in mind that this deck has, thus far, been constructed with only free cards and I hope to spend no more than 2 tix total.
I had thought about using Undying Evil as a tool against removal and to make the Skittering more effective in a pinch.
Beware using bad cards to justify using other bad cards. I'm not saying that either is bad, but spending BBB and two cards for a 4/3 flier that still dies to casting another creature isn't great.
it forces them to make a hard choice that benefits me either way.
You aren't forcing them to make a choice. You're using one of the few cards that allows them to make choices for you. You're allowing them to play your cards. Don't give opponents any choice in the matter. I've written about this at length re: Vexing Devil and Browbeat in the Burn thread. Example:
Yup, I agree about Undying Evil, which is why it stays in the SB.
I interpret the choice in Dash Hopes to be positive for me, but I understand your argument. However, I really like either outcome. If the card allows them to make a choice, either of which benefits me (regardless of circumstance), I'm ok with that. Plus, I enjoy the surprise factor.
I recently came across Sinister Possession and starting thinking about using it instead of Paralyze, is this an interesting idea or nuts?
EDIT: This is nuts, as confirmed by Curby and my own testing.
After a few more rounds last night with the newest iteration of the deck, I'm thinking that my Skirge's and Moongloves might be better off being replaced by Vault Skirge (per Curby's suggestion) and Bonesplitter. I really like the Skittering, given it's power level and price point, but I found myself either mistakenly sac'ing it when I brought a creature in or stalling my aggro element to keep it around.
Are 4 Splitters overdoing it? I like them but I also like the combat tricks that let me throw in a few extra damage and take out huge creatures unexpectedly. I could drop a Splitter for another Sign in Blood, Foul-Tongue, Victim, or creature.
Depends on your strategy. As I said, I run a more aggro-control build with more disruptive components than most. My creatures tend to be smaller but with evasion, which lets them wear a Bonesplitter well. I seldom mind seeing two in the early game, so 4 is right for me. Plus, they're great on a Vault Skirge. As for combat tricks, I love them, which is why my 1-drop removal of choice is Disfigure.
For the record I build my deck to run sideboard-less in a casual Legacy meta with random tier-10 Legacy pet decks. There's a ton of black creatures, so I can't run a lot of staple removal like Snuff Out which is otherwise amazing. In other words, take everything I say with a grain of salt. It might not work in typical Pauper metas.
After a few more rounds last night with the newest iteration of the deck, I'm thinking that my Skirge's and Moongloves might be better off being replaced by Vault Skirge (per Curby's suggestion) and Bonesplitter. I really like the Skittering, given it's power level and price point, but I found myself either mistakenly sac'ing it when I brought a creature in or stalling my aggro element to keep it around.
Are 4 Splitters overdoing it? I like them but I also like the combat tricks that let me throw in a few extra damage and take out huge creatures unexpectedly. I could drop a Splitter for another Sign in Blood, Foul-Tongue, Victim, or creature.
I'm personally not a fan of Splitters in any ultra fast aggro deck because they time it takes to equip them is mana I would normally have rather spent doing literally anything else. I do REALLY like Foul-Tongue though. I think its good enough to be a 3-of. I liked it as a 4-of but I can easily see that being too many.
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Bonesplitter: I agree about the equip speed but I can't help but feel that it makes other creatures much better (Vault Skirge, Thornbow, shadow creatures, basically everything). One of the main reasons I upped the count was the addition of Vault Skirge, which seems very "meh" without it. That being said, I could see swapping out the Splitters for something like Tyrant's Choice, Bump in the Night, or even something a bit more janky like Soul Reap. This would allow me to get in direct damage when my weens begin to lose steam. I'm actually thinking about doing some kind of anti-aggro where I hide behind walls and then just use direct damage, Smolder Initiate, and some shadow/flyers.
Foul-Tongue Shriek: You're very right about this card, it's so unexpected and stabilizes late games very well. I could maybe see 3 but definitely not 4. They're very situational.
Thanks for all of the input, I'm really enjoying this discussion. Makes me think the primer should get some updating
Pretty sure MBC already covers that pretty well, but if you brew up something new and start a thread for it, I'd love to see it!
Re: Shriek, I've never tried it, but as you move towards evasive creatures with equipment, how often do you really get a late-game stall with tons of creatures that can't attack profitably, and have to rely on the direct damage of Shriek to get the win? Shadows and fliers can often get past blockers, and even ground pounders can get through if the opponent knows we have combat tricks that discourage blocking. I understand that herenorthere uses more traditional creatures, and see how a couple Razor Golems could hold off 6 weenies forever, but that doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in my build. @Rustbeltwolf as you get more practice in with your build, it will be interesting to see how "winmore" Shriek is, and whether its slots would be better used for a card that can actually turn around a difficult game state, rather than more quickly winning a game that you would have won anyway.
As an addendum to my last disclaimer, perhaps I see more sweepers and x-for-1s in my casual Legacy environment, so I value the ability to recover from them. The ability for any Skirge or Dauthi to pick up 2-3 discarded Bonesplitters and threaten lethal after a board wipe is great, and gives my build what I would imagine is a different, but still relevant, flavor of late-game potential.
I'm actually working on a pauper blink/morph deck right now but the mono-b wall/burn is the next project
Foul-Tongue Shriek: Your point is well said. However, at least in my play environment, I tend to see quite a few 2+ toughness creatures come down early. When this happens and my aggro attack stalls, I can get in a few extra points with the shadow/fliers but not nearly at the opening pace. When that happens I'll hold everything back with a Foul-Tongue in hand until I'm all out of creatures in hand, then use it. For me it's been less of a win-more and more of a surprise when the opponent has tried to stabilize their life total, pushed out all their creatures, and tapped down all mana thinking they were safe. The creatures get me most of the way, but playing the type of aggro that herenorthere and I are playing counts on the early guys getting in most damage and something else closing out the little bit that's left.
@Curby: what are your thoughts on Thornbow Archer vs. Pulse Tracker? I just picked some Tracker's up for free and herenorthere seems to be a fan.
If you want to "go ham" you could always run Predator's Gambit (over Twisted Experiment). That would give you pump for less mana, though with the obvious card disadvantage issues. I'm personally not a fan, but it's popular.
I've actually been looking for a late-game mana sink, so maybe I should try Wicked Akuba. Hmm.
@herenorthere: How's your experience been with Shamble Back and Vile Rebirth? I imagine your strategy must put some little dudes in yard, and it seems a bit odd you'd go as far as running Pulse Tracker and other small guys before at least a couple of these. I have to imagine you've tried them and they simply don't work out, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
EDIT: @wolf: it's a hard choice. I have to face Forked Bolts so I really try to reduce the number of 1-toughness guys, but I also see Elves. I thought you said you don't see Elves as often, so Thornbow seems better. If all else fails you can try a 1-1 or 2-2 split and see how they perform. Or test one creature, and every time you draw it, keep notes on whether the other creature would have been better in that situation. This helps prevent the confirmation bias of "only remembering the good times" when comparing cards.
Pretty sure MBC already covers that pretty well, but if you brew up something new and start a thread for it, I'd love to see it!
Re: Shriek, I've never tried it, but as you move towards evasive creatures with equipment, how often do you really get a late-game stall with tons of creatures that can't attack profitably, and have to rely on the direct damage of Shriek to get the win? Shadows and fliers can often get past blockers, and even ground pounders can get through if the opponent knows we have combat tricks that discourage blocking. I understand that herenorthere uses more traditional creatures, and see how a couple Razor Golems could hold off 6 weenies forever, but that doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in my build. @Rustbeltwolf as you get more practice in with your build, it will be interesting to see how "winmore" Shriek is, and whether its slots would be better used for a card that can actually turn around a difficult game state, rather than more quickly winning a game that you would have won anyway.
As an addendum to my last disclaimer, perhaps I see more sweepers and x-for-1s in my casual Legacy environment, so I value the ability to recover from them. The ability for any Skirge or Dauthi to pick up 2-3 discarded Bonesplitters and threaten lethal after a board wipe is great, and gives my build what I would imagine is a different, but still relevant, flavor of late-game potential.
I also ran 4x Bump in the Night with it. With a good start, like 4 creatures on field by turn 2, a Foul-Tongue is like 5th creature, sometimes a really big one at that. It can remove the need for an entire extra combat step by simply ending the game on the spot. If something happens and you can't end the game that turn, you aren't in awful shape because of the damage taken from Sangro, Carno, Lacerator, and Vault Skirge. Its extra stupid if you can Dark Ritual a couple Shrieks and Bumps out.
If you want to "go ham" you could always run Predator's Gambit (over Twisted Experiment). That would give you pump for less mana, though with the obvious card disadvantage issues. I'm personally not a fan, but it's popular.
I've actually been looking for a late-game mana sink, so maybe I should try Wicked Akuba. Hmm.
@herenorthere: How's your experience been with Shamble Back and Vile Rebirth? I imagine your strategy must put some little dudes in yard, and it seems a bit odd you'd go as far as running Pulse Tracker and other small guys before at least a couple of these. I have to imagine you've tried them and they simply don't work out, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
EDIT: @wolf: it's a hard choice. I have to face Forked Bolts so I really try to reduce the number of 1-toughness guys, but I also see Elves. I thought you said you don't see Elves as often, so Thornbow seems better. If all else fails you can try a 1-1 or 2-2 split and see how they perform. Or test one creature, and every time you draw it, keep notes on whether the other creature would have been better in that situation. This helps prevent the confirmation bias of "only remembering the good times" when comparing cards.
Yeah, I didn't really like Shamble and Rebirth. They are too slow. They are dead in hand if there are no creatures in the 'yard and that can happen often against decks like Mono-U Delver. I prefer Pulse Tracker/Thornbow because they are also effectively 2-power against a players life total, and combined with Shriek, Bump, and Moonglove, can end a game even through blockers. My strategy is very much all in, go ham, and **** your blockers, I'm going to win anyway. It doesn't get fancy with clever removal or anything like that. Just go hard. I also ran 1 Gurmag Angler as well. I really liked that. Its great tech against mass removal decks that can slow you down and then outclass your threats. It also makes late game Dark Rituals less bad because you can Ritual for 3, Delve the Ritual for 1, and tap 2 more to play Angler assuming you have no other cards in the 'yard. It can be big game when you need it.
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Somewhat different take. The direct damage is really good at closing out the late game but it has to get there fast or it's toast. Soul Reap is only OK as removal but great when it can do its little trick. I could drop one in favor of a Sign in Blood or Dark Ritual. Thoughts?
I'd be interested in seeing how Piranha Marsh does for you over time. A Swamp+Marsh opener with no DRit might slow you down too much. People run cycling lands in MBC but not MBA because having access to our early mana means more to us than solving flood in the late game ... at least that's the conventional wisdom. I thought there was a recent list that did well with Petals. That might be an option if you want to be explosive. Compared to the cyclers, it has the exact opposite problem of only helping in the early game.
This seems like the sort of build that Foul-tongue Shriek belongs in though. I wonder how it would do for you in place of some number of Tyrant's Choice and Sign in Blood.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
One Drops
4 Carnophage
2 Thornbow Archer
2 Vampire Lacerator
Two Drops
3 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
2 Order of the Ebon Hand
2 Skittering Skirge
2 Wicked Akuba
3 Wretched Anurid
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Victim of Night
Combat Tricks/Removal
2 Unnatural Endurance
2 Touch of Moonglove
Utility
2 Sign in Blood
2 Bonesplitter
Some other rando cards I've been looking at:
Also, is Tyrant's Choice legal in MTGO pauper? I cannot seem to get a straight answer here.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
17 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
One Drops
4 Carnophage
2 Thornbow Archer
4 Vampire Lacerator
3 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
3 Skittering Skirge
2 Wicked Akuba
2 Wretched Anurid
4 Paralyze
2 Victim of Night
Utility
4 Sign in Blood
2 Bonesplitter
3 Touch of Moonglove
Testing with this deck last night netted me three wins out of the three games I played (I play in the "just for fun" as I prefer seeing rogue decks to net decks).
I've also been thinking about including Piranha Marsh in place of four swamps for some extra damage, although I'm not sure if those extra few points are a good trade off for getting stalled by the ETB tapped effect.
As always, any suggestion/discussion is welcomed.
For what its worth, Vault Skirge is definitely worth it as a 1-drop, optional 2-drop, because it is evasive and helps stabilize your life total.
Pulse Tracker/Thornbow Archer I think should be a 4-of. Ideally you want as many 2 power 1 drops as you can get. That lets you REALLY maximize your Dark Rituals. Its the difference of 6 power on board turn 1 and 3 or 4 power on board turn 1. Having so many 2 drops is really a liability and makes Dark Ritual worse.
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17 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
Uno Drop
4 Carnophage
4 Thornbow Archer
4 Vampire Lacerator
3 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
3 Skittering Skirge
2 Wicked Akuba
Utility
3 Sign in Blood
2 Bonesplitter
2 Touch of Moonglove
2 Foul-Tongue Shriek
4 Paralyze
2 Victim of Night
I know a few people wrote about it in earlier posts but what's the feeling on Dash Hopes these days?
With so many creatures, I prefer my Skirge over yours though. Consider an Unearth or two if you stick with Skittering.
I didn't play Browbeat, I don't play Vexing Devil, and I wouldn't play Dash. If it were a straight copy of Counterspell that cost BB I still probably wouldn't play it in this deck. I'd much rather run Duress (and in fact I do), partially because it costs half as much, partially because it gives me intel on the rest of their hand, and partially because (compared to Dash) it doesn't let your opponent choose the mode that hurts them least. Lastly, despite my build being closer to aggro-control than a pure aggro/suicide build, I prefer proactive cards like Duress in this deck.
I would have said the same about Dash years ago though. Generally, impressions on weak cards only change when there's a new card/mechanic for the older card to abuse (Infect made Invigorate playable), or something's banned (
Cloud of Faeries> Faerie Miscreant), or the metagame shifts so drastically that an old card has new utility (can't think of an example in Pauper). If you can't identify such obvious changes, there's likely little need to revisit previously-discarded options.2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
While I agree with your assessment of some of the cards you mentioned, and while I do like duress (and run it in my SB), I can't help but feel as though there are many situations where a Dash would have helped quite a bit. Not many people see it coming, and even if they do, it forces them to make a hard choice that benefits me either way. It my eyes, it essentially works as removal or life loss, and frankly, in a deck that's on the more aggro side, either option helps me. I may consider dropping the Moongloves in place of it. Also, as herenorthere mentioned, Foul-Tongue Shriek is a really neat card to have 2 of in the deck. When the board stalls I simply swing with everything and that tactic actually closed out two games for me last night.
I've also been tinkering with Blood Seeker as a SB card against tokens, elves, etc. It worked out pretty well for me in the few games that I brought him in. Against elves it almost completely crippled my opponent, and against pauper soul sisters it made his life gain completely irrelevant.
I came across this article a few days ago and was intrigued by the idea in the last deck. I feel like I don't see many of these black aggro builds around and I'm always interested in new cards and new ideas regarding it. After playing quite a few games with the deck I can definitively say that it can compete with most, if not all, of the decks that I see in the meta. I hope the interest, and discussion, continues.
Shrivel is also really good against Elves. White has a few more ways of making Shrivel bad though. In a lot of cases Shrivel doesn't hurt you as much as it does your opponent because so many of your creatures have 2 toughness. However, against Elves and mono-G Stompy, Thornbow seems really bad. Pulse Tracker might be better here (but dies to your own Shrivel). What has your experience been? Does the extra toughness really help?
How's Wicked Akuba? How often do you have mana left over to activate it? I've tried it in MBC in place of Witches before and in a deck that regularly has 3-5 open mana (depending on what you are doing), it can straight wreck a person. With so little mana in the deck here though, I wonder if it isn't better used as something else.
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I like the Thornbow. I agree that he's kind of crap against elves and stompy, but I don't see that as a reason to ditch entirely. I don't encounter a ton of either deck as most people play delver, angler, tron, or some rogue deck. The one extra point of toughness lets him trade with 1/1s and win while also being more resilient against removal. Plus, if I throw a Bonesplitter on him he becomes much more relevant.
Wicked Akuba is dope. As Upkeep has mentioned, he is essentially a must block in most situations. Even if I only have 2-3 mana hanging around that matters quite a bit in a deck that pushes damage like this one. What some others may not have mentioned is that the Akuba also makes your late game Dark Rituals a sudden source of 3 damage out of freakin nowhere. I played a game where my opponent blocked two pumped up 2/2s (via Bonesplitter) and let the Akuba through as I had not equipped him, I had two Dark Rituals in my hand and he was toast. At worst, he forces the opponent to remove or block. At best, he gets crazy damage through at later stages. You could swap out the moongloves for Unnatural Endurance to be extra tricky and keep the Akuba alive.
That being said, if there's a better alternative I'm all ears. Just keep in mind that this deck has, thus far, been constructed with only free cards and I hope to spend no more than 2 tix total.
Beware using bad cards to justify using other bad cards. I'm not saying that either is bad, but spending BBB and two cards for a 4/3 flier that still dies to casting another creature isn't great.
You aren't forcing them to make a choice. You're using one of the few cards that allows them to make choices for you. You're allowing them to play your cards. Don't give opponents any choice in the matter. I've written about this at length re: Vexing Devil and Browbeat in the Burn thread. Example:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/aggro-tempo/488613-burn?comment=2124
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I interpret the choice in Dash Hopes to be positive for me, but I understand your argument. However, I really like either outcome. If the card allows them to make a choice, either of which benefits me (regardless of circumstance), I'm ok with that. Plus, I enjoy the surprise factor.
I recently came across Sinister Possession and starting thinking about using it instead of Paralyze, is this an interesting idea or nuts?
EDIT: This is nuts, as confirmed by Curby and my own testing.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
17 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
Uno Drop
4 Carnophage
4 Thornbow Archer
4 Vampire Lacerator
3 Vault Skirge
3 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
2 Wicked Akuba
Utility
3 Sign in Blood
4 Bonesplitter
2 Foul-Tongue Shriek
4 Paralyze
2 Victim of Night
Are 4 Splitters overdoing it? I like them but I also like the combat tricks that let me throw in a few extra damage and take out huge creatures unexpectedly. I could drop a Splitter for another Sign in Blood, Foul-Tongue, Victim, or creature.
Also, does anyone think Grimclaw Bats might be a substitute for Wicked Akuba
For the record I build my deck to run sideboard-less in a casual Legacy meta with random tier-10 Legacy pet decks. There's a ton of black creatures, so I can't run a lot of staple removal like Snuff Out which is otherwise amazing. In other words, take everything I say with a grain of salt. It might not work in typical Pauper metas.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I'm personally not a fan of Splitters in any ultra fast aggro deck because they time it takes to equip them is mana I would normally have rather spent doing literally anything else. I do REALLY like Foul-Tongue though. I think its good enough to be a 3-of. I liked it as a 4-of but I can easily see that being too many.
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Foul-Tongue Shriek: You're very right about this card, it's so unexpected and stabilizes late games very well. I could maybe see 3 but definitely not 4. They're very situational.
Thanks for all of the input, I'm really enjoying this discussion. Makes me think the primer should get some updating
Pretty sure MBC already covers that pretty well, but if you brew up something new and start a thread for it, I'd love to see it!
Re: Shriek, I've never tried it, but as you move towards evasive creatures with equipment, how often do you really get a late-game stall with tons of creatures that can't attack profitably, and have to rely on the direct damage of Shriek to get the win? Shadows and fliers can often get past blockers, and even ground pounders can get through if the opponent knows we have combat tricks that discourage blocking. I understand that herenorthere uses more traditional creatures, and see how a couple Razor Golems could hold off 6 weenies forever, but that doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in my build. @Rustbeltwolf as you get more practice in with your build, it will be interesting to see how "winmore" Shriek is, and whether its slots would be better used for a card that can actually turn around a difficult game state, rather than more quickly winning a game that you would have won anyway.
As an addendum to my last disclaimer, perhaps I see more sweepers and x-for-1s in my casual Legacy environment, so I value the ability to recover from them. The ability for any Skirge or Dauthi to pick up 2-3 discarded Bonesplitters and threaten lethal after a board wipe is great, and gives my build what I would imagine is a different, but still relevant, flavor of late-game potential.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Foul-Tongue Shriek: Your point is well said. However, at least in my play environment, I tend to see quite a few 2+ toughness creatures come down early. When this happens and my aggro attack stalls, I can get in a few extra points with the shadow/fliers but not nearly at the opening pace. When that happens I'll hold everything back with a Foul-Tongue in hand until I'm all out of creatures in hand, then use it. For me it's been less of a win-more and more of a surprise when the opponent has tried to stabilize their life total, pushed out all their creatures, and tapped down all mana thinking they were safe. The creatures get me most of the way, but playing the type of aggro that herenorthere and I are playing counts on the early guys getting in most damage and something else closing out the little bit that's left.
@Curby: what are your thoughts on Thornbow Archer vs. Pulse Tracker? I just picked some Tracker's up for free and herenorthere seems to be a fan.
I've actually been looking for a late-game mana sink, so maybe I should try Wicked Akuba. Hmm.
@herenorthere: How's your experience been with Shamble Back and Vile Rebirth? I imagine your strategy must put some little dudes in yard, and it seems a bit odd you'd go as far as running Pulse Tracker and other small guys before at least a couple of these. I have to imagine you've tried them and they simply don't work out, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
EDIT: @wolf: it's a hard choice. I have to face Forked Bolts so I really try to reduce the number of 1-toughness guys, but I also see Elves. I thought you said you don't see Elves as often, so Thornbow seems better. If all else fails you can try a 1-1 or 2-2 split and see how they perform. Or test one creature, and every time you draw it, keep notes on whether the other creature would have been better in that situation. This helps prevent the confirmation bias of "only remembering the good times" when comparing cards.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I also ran 4x Bump in the Night with it. With a good start, like 4 creatures on field by turn 2, a Foul-Tongue is like 5th creature, sometimes a really big one at that. It can remove the need for an entire extra combat step by simply ending the game on the spot. If something happens and you can't end the game that turn, you aren't in awful shape because of the damage taken from Sangro, Carno, Lacerator, and Vault Skirge. Its extra stupid if you can Dark Ritual a couple Shrieks and Bumps out.
Yeah, I didn't really like Shamble and Rebirth. They are too slow. They are dead in hand if there are no creatures in the 'yard and that can happen often against decks like Mono-U Delver. I prefer Pulse Tracker/Thornbow because they are also effectively 2-power against a players life total, and combined with Shriek, Bump, and Moonglove, can end a game even through blockers. My strategy is very much all in, go ham, and **** your blockers, I'm going to win anyway. It doesn't get fancy with clever removal or anything like that. Just go hard. I also ran 1 Gurmag Angler as well. I really liked that. Its great tech against mass removal decks that can slow you down and then outclass your threats. It also makes late game Dark Rituals less bad because you can Ritual for 3, Delve the Ritual for 1, and tap 2 more to play Angler assuming you have no other cards in the 'yard. It can be big game when you need it.
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13 Swamp
4 Piranha Marsh
3 Dark Ritual
One Drops
4 Carnophage
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Thornbow Archer
3 Vault Skirge
2 Guul Draz Vampire
4 Dauthi Slayer
1 Wicked Akuba
Burn
4 Tyrant's Choice
4 Bump in the Night
Removal/Burn
4 Soul Reap
3 Bonesplitter
3 Sign in Blood
Not sure which I like more.
This seems like the sort of build that Foul-tongue Shriek belongs in though. I wonder how it would do for you in place of some number of Tyrant's Choice and Sign in Blood.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.