I've decided to build a mono green peasant infect as my go-to "fast" deck. I use the legacy banlist, so Invigorate is OK. Let me know what you think about the list (no sideboard yet).
Did I miss any main deck material? I could probably go to 15 Forest + 3 Petal without problems if something else is needed. Is it more correct to play 4 Rancor or 4 Seals? I like seal for being prepayable if you don't have glistener elf or petal + 2-drop on turn 1, but I guess the trample on Rancor is nothing to scoff at. Is Llanowar Augur strictly sideboard material against edicts or worth it in the main? What about Apostle's Blessing? Is Bounty of the Hunt a more interesting uncommon than Might of Old Krosa - i.e. is mana more scarce than cards? What about Spirit Guides then?
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OMG Berserk! It seems like the obvious go-to card for peasant builds. Except it costs like... What, 50 bucks a pop? :/
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Yeah, Berserk was my #1 suggestion. They're perhaps not worth the investment,though...
I would run more mainboard creatures. I would bump up Necropede to 2, and maybe even three. Getting that creature on turn one/two is really important (more so than having slightly stronger pump spells).
I would cut 4 lotus petals and add 2 Forests. This has proven to be very effective when Infect was legal online. It also allows you to run Groundswell rather easily. Your deck is already extremely explosive.
Apostle's Blessing all the way. I've lost many games to that card alone, either by it making the creature unblockable or saving it from removal. I would see it as a 2/3-of, for sure. I would remove some number of Seal of Strength for them.
Rancor is commonly seen as a 3-of, and I think it's really the right call.
Really, I think the biggest issue I see with this version is that it doesn't have quite enough creatures. You need to have the bodies; they make sure you fight removal and create inevitability through the opponent not being able to block them all.
I would cut 4 lotus petals and add 2 Forests. This has proven to be very effective when Infect was legal online. It also allows you to run Groundswell rather easily. Your deck is already extremely explosive.
This really gives me pause. If lotus petal wasn't played in infect when it was a thing on-line, I just don't get it. If you're not winning on turn 2, why bother with Infect at all? If your opponent almost always gets a turn 2, or even a turn 3, you *will* be facing removal that doesn't care about toughness. And blockers, toughness 2 and up. Almost every game. It's like playing combo and all your opponents are mono blue.
A turn 3 win isn't a win at all, because you need 1-2 more pump spells, to replay your creature because Journey to Nowhere etc. etc. Now obviously, there must be a point to this strategy otherwise it wouldn't have worked on-line, but I'm just not getting how it could work. This is not an attrition deck, so why would you build your deck in a way that sets you up for attrition mode more often?
I'm thinking that maybe I should go with Cranial Plating Peasant Affinity if I'm not winning until turn 3 anyway. It's much better at fighting the attrition war that will inevitably ensue, especially the perilous variant.
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As you can see, using Petals is pretty atypical with what was considered mainstream. It's always the same recipe: 15 creatures, 18 lands, 21 pump spells, 3 blessings, 3 probes. You can't argue with results.
As for the playability, I'm not the best person to ask... I don't play the deck! I imagine it has excellent attrition-figting powers, as its creatures distribute -1/-1 counters, and Blight Mamba and Ichorclaw Myr are very hard to block well.
Wow, thanks for the research - I really appreciate it! The more I think about it, 3 each of apostle/probe appear optimal.
Looking at the streamlined list of Feb 5, 2013, my biggest wonderment is "Why are there so few 1-drops?" Glistener Elf is really the only t1 play. You'll make it 30-40% of the time, not counting mulls (and mulling for a 4-of is of course terrible). So the infect player, wanting to win as soon as possible, plays Forest-GO turn 1, more often than not. That CAN'T be optimal.
Second question is the land total. If you want 3 lands by turn 3, conventional wisom is that you play 19-21 lands. If you're content with two lands like many legacy combo decks, you play 15-16 lands. 17-18 lands is only really for decks with many cantrips that want to make drop 3 and maybe even 4 but can afford to cut land because they dig so deep when needed.
Infect seems to want a 3rd land drop by turn 3 for Groundswell, but a) if you had lotus petal and dropped a threat t1 instead, you could use groundswell turn 2 instead. If I were to go, say, 16 land + 2 petal, this would actually INCREASE my chances at powering groundswell, because getting two forests out of 16 is much easier than getting three out of 18. Also, if I could use my turn 1 mana more often, either with Petal-> 2 CMC threat or with Seal/Llanowar Augur, then I have more firepower for less mana anyway, making that landfall less crucial still.
Lotus Petal, Llanowar Augur and Tranquil Thicket are all ways to make more of round 1. To me, a 2/2/2 split seems optimal, thus modifying the "streamlined" list like so:
Krosa is no Berserk, but it's more consistent than Groundswell. I have two more sources of trample, 1 more creature (against edicts), 1 less infect dude, same number of pump, 2 more acceleration, 1 less land and two more cyclers. Though I have no experience piloting the deck, these changes seem like they would make more of t1 and get more consistent t2-3 kills more often without really compromising the deck's ability to fight attrition. IMO, what you waste on the petal, you get back in having to use fewer pump/protection spells since opp has less board presence.
Another question: Why does a hyper aggro deck play fog in the board? To race better? It should beat most other aggro by 1-2 full turns already. Would it rather take out a pump spell for FOG (?!) against goblins or affinity for instance? It seems really strange!
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Fog against the mirror on the draw I think. I didn't play pauper back then but if your opponent goes in with a Rancor'd Infecter you don't want to block OR take the damage.
The additional creatures are for MBC and just for general filler if I need to board out unnecessary cards for games 2-3. Longbow is a nod to my Turbo Fog deck, while also solving flagbearer effects much like Hornet Sting.
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I don't think the infect decks were necessarily aiming for the mythical turn 2 kill. Turn 3 is still blazingly fast, and much more consistently achievable, while being easier to protect from counters and things. The next more prevalent deck of that era was Delver tempo, after all. Getting that turn 2 kill 20% of the time is still pretty damn good, I have to say.
If I think back on my extensive testing against the archetype (a friend of mine runs the invigorated version even today), the way I was most often killed was on turn 3, with a turn 2 Rancor'd elf followed by a deadly Apostle's Blessing turn 3. Or a turn two critter followed by a turn three kill. Keep in mind those creatures are dastardly difficult to block profitably. Don't underestimate this deck's ability to play an attrition game. It will win.
If I were to take my own twist on the "refined" list, I would probably add an extra Blessing. That card has lost me dozens of games by itself, even if it's not a pump spell. It's just so versatile.
I still don't agree with the petals in there. You should try it out with and without them and see how it affects your consistency. You might get a few more turn 2 wins, but chances are it may bite you back if you don't manage to kill your opponent that turn (probably the greatest argument against it).
Would you consider removing 1 Might of Old Krosa for 1 Necropede? I really think you'll want that extra infecter, as they're more precious than pump spells.
MTGO dailies are coming back next week and I'm going to use this list for them, unless a bunch of you think I should use a different list. This will be my first time with Pauper. Invigorate is banned, so what should I use instead? Or because it's banned, should I play another deck instead?
What do you mean by coming back? Dailies (or weeklies, rather) have been back since August or something. Or did I miss something and they're starting to host them more often again?
I think most infect decks online have moved to a GW build... I'd need to dig around to find something... They're not incredibly popular, and I have no idea is mono-green might not be plain better, even without Invigorate.
EDIT: I think I was wrong. I'm finding way more mono-green lists, just coping without Invigorate.
I'm sorry if I sounded pessimistic about the archetype. We just don't hear about it much anymore, online. Doesn't mean it's not playable, just not top-tier like it used to be.
@Urdjur: How has Petal testing gone? I'm taking a closer look at infect now, because I want to abuse everything on the MTGO ban list. I'm intrigued by the "first turn creature" philosophy in this deck. Petals COULD allow for playing Blighted Agent, esp. if we use Thornwood Falls instead of cycling lands. I'm not looking for a deep blue splash, but at least replacing Cystbearers or Rot Wolves with Agents should speed up the deck. (I realize that you've been posting Peasant lists but I'm hoping you've given some thought to pauper versions as well.) OTOH, perhaps 12 Infect creatures that cost 1-2 is enough, and a bit of Petal acceleration is all we need to better ensure that something lands on the first turn.
I'm not sure about Augur, since if we're planning a T2 lethal attack we can't play both him and our Infect guy on T1, and playing Augur on T2 means he can't pump the same turn. I get that things don't always go according to plan, but at the same time it's odd to include a card that has absolutely zero role in our preferred gameplan.
Why don't you try a streamlined list first (I posted an example of it in the previous page almost 2 years ago), and then work your way from there? This version of the deck was what (almost) everyone was playing. And it won. A lot. I think you'll find this list to be consistently good. I get that you want to be different and more explosive, and that's fine. Try out the deck the way it was played back in the day. It was these lists that got invigorate banned, not the ones with petals, after all. Once you get a feel for the power of the deck, switch out some things to personalize it. I think that would be the safest approach to first understanding how the deck works so you don't change proportions of the deck that really made it a ban-worthy powerhouse.
You're right, and I often say the same in other threads when someone new to a deck is suggesting changes. I am in fact planning to start with that list you posted. However, I'm still curious how urdjur's testing of Petal/Augur/etc. has gone, assuming he hasn't dropped it entirely by now.
Here's my list. I'm new to the forum's, so I don't know all the fancy text stuff:
Lands--22
15 Forests
3 Khalni Garden
2 Sejeri Steppe
1 Teetering Peaks
1 Turntimber Grove
The idea is to play a toolbox for crop rotation. Garden protects from edicts [and Curfew] and can also chump in races,
Steppe provides protection and evasion, Peaks to pump, and Grove as another green source that pumps.
The base 12 are not up for debate. I ran cystbearer for a while, but I have found the card drawing to be much
more impactful than the extra toughness. By the time you get to 3 mana, no one is using 2 damage effects anyway.
I think these are the best 20 pump spells you can run.
Toolbox-4
4 Crop Rotation
Amazing card, the only reason you have a prayer against MBC.
Sideboard
4 Corpse Cur
4 Nourish
4 Natures Claim
3 Vitality Charm
Nourish is for the mono red match up. I found it unwinnable otherwise.
Natures Claim are for affinity, but can be brought in against Journey, Tortured Existance, and even Curse of the Pierced Heart. I only bring in all 4 against Affinity.
Corpse Cur is for removal heavy and creature heavy matches. Basically if there's a lot of trading [Either of spells or in combat] you want these to pull ahead. Good against MBC, WW, Slivers.
Vitality Charm is extra edict protection [Yes, you need more MBC stuff]. I've also brought it in for the small trample benefit if there's a lot of champing going on.
Other possible choices:
Fog: For the mirror. I haven't run into anyone playing infect, so it seems unneeded right now.
Flaring Pain: Really your only answer for turbo fog. However, you have to have your one red source and draw the flaring pain. Plus, I don't see this match up very much.
Magnify: This saves you from electrickery, shrivel, holy light, but I think the other sideboard cards are more important. Plus, you can play around shrivel. You can't play around chainers edict.
Hornet Sting: I've seen a lot of people playing these, but I don't find delver a big problem. You can race them,
plus the sting is useless after they've flipped. Maybe Pistus Strike [or just plain plummet] would be better.
It's a lot more resillient: the creatures are better, you have a lot of creatures (1 drops and 2 drops), not only 12 or so like Infect. Infect is an explosive deck, but Stompy is far miles above because of its consistency.
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4 Lotus Petal
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba
1 Necropede
4 Invigorate
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Seal of Strength
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Rancor
Did I miss any main deck material? I could probably go to 15 Forest + 3 Petal without problems if something else is needed. Is it more correct to play 4 Rancor or 4 Seals? I like seal for being prepayable if you don't have glistener elf or petal + 2-drop on turn 1, but I guess the trample on Rancor is nothing to scoff at. Is Llanowar Augur strictly sideboard material against edicts or worth it in the main? What about Apostle's Blessing? Is Bounty of the Hunt a more interesting uncommon than Might of Old Krosa - i.e. is mana more scarce than cards? What about Spirit Guides then?
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I would run more mainboard creatures. I would bump up Necropede to 2, and maybe even three. Getting that creature on turn one/two is really important (more so than having slightly stronger pump spells).
I would cut 4 lotus petals and add 2 Forests. This has proven to be very effective when Infect was legal online. It also allows you to run Groundswell rather easily. Your deck is already extremely explosive.
Apostle's Blessing all the way. I've lost many games to that card alone, either by it making the creature unblockable or saving it from removal. I would see it as a 2/3-of, for sure. I would remove some number of Seal of Strength for them.
Rancor is commonly seen as a 3-of, and I think it's really the right call.
Really, I think the biggest issue I see with this version is that it doesn't have quite enough creatures. You need to have the bodies; they make sure you fight removal and create inevitability through the opponent not being able to block them all.
For the sideboard, Nature's Claim is hilarious.
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This really gives me pause. If lotus petal wasn't played in infect when it was a thing on-line, I just don't get it. If you're not winning on turn 2, why bother with Infect at all? If your opponent almost always gets a turn 2, or even a turn 3, you *will* be facing removal that doesn't care about toughness. And blockers, toughness 2 and up. Almost every game. It's like playing combo and all your opponents are mono blue.
A turn 3 win isn't a win at all, because you need 1-2 more pump spells, to replay your creature because Journey to Nowhere etc. etc. Now obviously, there must be a point to this strategy otherwise it wouldn't have worked on-line, but I'm just not getting how it could work. This is not an attrition deck, so why would you build your deck in a way that sets you up for attrition mode more often?
I'm thinking that maybe I should go with Cranial Plating Peasant Affinity if I'm not winning until turn 3 anyway. It's much better at fighting the attrition war that will inevitably ensue, especially the perilous variant.
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4 Blight Mamba
3 Cystbearer
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
2 Apostle's Blessing
4 Groundswell
4 Invigorate
3 Mutagenic Growth
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Gitaxian Probe
Artifact [2]
2 Lotus Petal
Enchantment [4]
4 Rancor
Land [18]
16 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket
Although most of the lists (4-0 and 3-1) look a lot more like this one:
19 Forest
creatures (15)
4 Blight Mamba
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
3 Rot Wolf
1 Apostle's Blessing
4 Groundswell
4 Invigorate
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Predator's Strike
4 Rancor
1 Ranger's Guile
4 Vines of Vastwood
Not the prettiest lists out there, but you get the idea.
Just before the bannings, the deck was streamlined and every winning list was looking practically identical:
4 Blight Mamba
3 Cystbearer
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
Instant [20]
3 Apostle's Blessing
4 Groundswell
4 Invigorate
4 Mutagenic Growth
1 Predator's Strike
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Gitaxian Probe
Enchantment [4]
4 Rancor
Land [18]
18 Forest
4 Fog
4 Hornet Sting
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ranger's Guile
As you can see, using Petals is pretty atypical with what was considered mainstream. It's always the same recipe: 15 creatures, 18 lands, 21 pump spells, 3 blessings, 3 probes. You can't argue with results.
As for the playability, I'm not the best person to ask... I don't play the deck! I imagine it has excellent attrition-figting powers, as its creatures distribute -1/-1 counters, and Blight Mamba and Ichorclaw Myr are very hard to block well.
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Looking at the streamlined list of Feb 5, 2013, my biggest wonderment is "Why are there so few 1-drops?" Glistener Elf is really the only t1 play. You'll make it 30-40% of the time, not counting mulls (and mulling for a 4-of is of course terrible). So the infect player, wanting to win as soon as possible, plays Forest-GO turn 1, more often than not. That CAN'T be optimal.
Second question is the land total. If you want 3 lands by turn 3, conventional wisom is that you play 19-21 lands. If you're content with two lands like many legacy combo decks, you play 15-16 lands. 17-18 lands is only really for decks with many cantrips that want to make drop 3 and maybe even 4 but can afford to cut land because they dig so deep when needed.
Infect seems to want a 3rd land drop by turn 3 for Groundswell, but a) if you had lotus petal and dropped a threat t1 instead, you could use groundswell turn 2 instead. If I were to go, say, 16 land + 2 petal, this would actually INCREASE my chances at powering groundswell, because getting two forests out of 16 is much easier than getting three out of 18. Also, if I could use my turn 1 mana more often, either with Petal-> 2 CMC threat or with Seal/Llanowar Augur, then I have more firepower for less mana anyway, making that landfall less crucial still.
Lotus Petal, Llanowar Augur and Tranquil Thicket are all ways to make more of round 1. To me, a 2/2/2 split seems optimal, thus modifying the "streamlined" list like so:
-3 Forest
-1 Predator's Strike
-3 Cystbearer
-4 Groundswell
+2 Tranquil Thicket
+2 Lotus Petal
+2 Llanowar Augur
+2 Necropede
+3 Might of Old Krosa
Krosa is no Berserk, but it's more consistent than Groundswell. I have two more sources of trample, 1 more creature (against edicts), 1 less infect dude, same number of pump, 2 more acceleration, 1 less land and two more cyclers. Though I have no experience piloting the deck, these changes seem like they would make more of t1 and get more consistent t2-3 kills more often without really compromising the deck's ability to fight attrition. IMO, what you waste on the petal, you get back in having to use fewer pump/protection spells since opp has less board presence.
Another question: Why does a hyper aggro deck play fog in the board? To race better? It should beat most other aggro by 1-2 full turns already. Would it rather take out a pump spell for FOG (?!) against goblins or affinity for instance? It seems really strange!
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OK then, so here's ma deck, sideboard and all:
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
2 Necropede
2 Llanowar Augur
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Lotus Petal
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Rancor
3 Gitaxian Probe
INSTANTS (18)
3 Apostle's Blessing
4 Invigorate
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Might of Old Krosa
LANDS (17)
2 Tranquil Thicket
15 Forest
2 Viridian Longbow
2 Llanowar Augur
2 Ranger's Guile
3 Cystbearer
3 Nature's Claim
3 Hornet Sting
The additional creatures are for MBC and just for general filler if I need to board out unnecessary cards for games 2-3. Longbow is a nod to my Turbo Fog deck, while also solving flagbearer effects much like Hornet Sting.
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If I think back on my extensive testing against the archetype (a friend of mine runs the invigorated version even today), the way I was most often killed was on turn 3, with a turn 2 Rancor'd elf followed by a deadly Apostle's Blessing turn 3. Or a turn two critter followed by a turn three kill. Keep in mind those creatures are dastardly difficult to block profitably. Don't underestimate this deck's ability to play an attrition game. It will win.
If I were to take my own twist on the "refined" list, I would probably add an extra Blessing. That card has lost me dozens of games by itself, even if it's not a pump spell. It's just so versatile.
I still don't agree with the petals in there. You should try it out with and without them and see how it affects your consistency. You might get a few more turn 2 wins, but chances are it may bite you back if you don't manage to kill your opponent that turn (probably the greatest argument against it).
Would you consider removing 1 Might of Old Krosa for 1 Necropede? I really think you'll want that extra infecter, as they're more precious than pump spells.
Beserk would be so awesome here. Sigh...
Cyst Bearer in the sideboard seems like the odd one out. You could definitely find something more appropriate to fight your metagame.
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BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
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BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
MTGO dailies are coming back next week and I'm going to use this list for them, unless a bunch of you think I should use a different list. This will be my first time with Pauper. Invigorate is banned, so what should I use instead? Or because it's banned, should I play another deck instead?
I think most infect decks online have moved to a GW build... I'd need to dig around to find something... They're not incredibly popular, and I have no idea is mono-green might not be plain better, even without Invigorate.
EDIT: I think I was wrong. I'm finding way more mono-green lists, just coping without Invigorate.
UGTurboFogGU
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Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Guess I'll play something else. Thanks.
I'm sorry if I sounded pessimistic about the archetype. We just don't hear about it much anymore, online. Doesn't mean it's not playable, just not top-tier like it used to be.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
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I'm not sure about Augur, since if we're planning a T2 lethal attack we can't play both him and our Infect guy on T1, and playing Augur on T2 means he can't pump the same turn. I get that things don't always go according to plan, but at the same time it's odd to include a card that has absolutely zero role in our preferred gameplan.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Lands--22
15 Forests
3 Khalni Garden
2 Sejeri Steppe
1 Teetering Peaks
1 Turntimber Grove
The idea is to play a toolbox for crop rotation. Garden protects from edicts [and Curfew] and can also chump in races,
Steppe provides protection and evasion, Peaks to pump, and Grove as another green source that pumps.
Creatures-14
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blight Mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr
2 Rot Wolf
The base 12 are not up for debate. I ran cystbearer for a while, but I have found the card drawing to be much
more impactful than the extra toughness. By the time you get to 3 mana, no one is using 2 damage effects anyway.
Pump-20
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Giant Growh
4 Groundswell
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
I think these are the best 20 pump spells you can run.
Toolbox-4
4 Crop Rotation
Amazing card, the only reason you have a prayer against MBC.
Sideboard
4 Corpse Cur
4 Nourish
4 Natures Claim
3 Vitality Charm
Nourish is for the mono red match up. I found it unwinnable otherwise.
Natures Claim are for affinity, but can be brought in against Journey, Tortured Existance, and even Curse of the Pierced Heart. I only bring in all 4 against Affinity.
Corpse Cur is for removal heavy and creature heavy matches. Basically if there's a lot of trading [Either of spells or in combat] you want these to pull ahead. Good against MBC, WW, Slivers.
Vitality Charm is extra edict protection [Yes, you need more MBC stuff]. I've also brought it in for the small trample benefit if there's a lot of champing going on.
Other possible choices:
Fog: For the mirror. I haven't run into anyone playing infect, so it seems unneeded right now.
Flaring Pain: Really your only answer for turbo fog. However, you have to have your one red source and draw the flaring pain. Plus, I don't see this match up very much.
Magnify: This saves you from electrickery, shrivel, holy light, but I think the other sideboard cards are more important. Plus, you can play around shrivel. You can't play around chainers edict.
Hornet Sting: I've seen a lot of people playing these, but I don't find delver a big problem. You can race them,
plus the sting is useless after they've flipped. Maybe Pistus Strike [or just plain plummet] would be better.
My current side is now
3 of nature's claim, sting, magnify, nourish, corpse cur.
I do think your sideboard is alright, but I would use Feed the Clan instead of Nourish and the Gut Shot instead of Hornet Sting.
Fog is great in some matchs too.
Hey, I'm new to pauper and am planning on having both an U/G and a B/G variant of Infect. Would you mind posting your lists?