My local shop uses the MTGO banned list yet allows paper only commons like guerrilla tactics and hymn to tourach. Having tested with invigorate I can say it's banned for really good reasons. 1 it's just absurdly good. 2 the life it gives your opponent is such a mean rub in. Free landfall'd groundswell seems pretty badass, especially when you have mutagenic growth as another free pump. The deck's turn 2 wins come way to easy and often (almost any opener with glistener elf), and pauper does not have the safety valves that legacy has (force of will among others),
My local shop uses the MTGO banned list yet allows paper only commons like guerrilla tactics and hymn to tourach. Having tested with invigorate I can say it's banned for really good reasons. 1 it's just absurdly good. 2 the life it gives your opponent is such a mean rub in. Free landfall'd groundswell seems pretty badass, especially when you have mutagenic growth as another free pump. The deck's turn 2 wins come way to easy and often (almost any opener with glistener elf), and pauper does not have the safety valves that legacy has (force of will among others),
Whether or not if the card is good or not is not in question. What Lord Seth stated was that the card was banned and should be removed, but in fact it isn't banned within the paper version of the game.
I will admit that the card is 'absurdly' good but it is actually extremely easy to counter.
In my meta as an example infect ran wild until people started slightly gearing sideboards and I do mean slightly to deal with it and then Invigorate was actually kind of useless among all the other instant pump spells; then after turn two and three were over infect lost steam and lost overall.
Pauper may not have Force of Will but a saved Dispel stops infect in its tracks. Even if you were to play red then a simple Shock let alone a Lightning Bolt shuts down a turn one Glistener Elf. Playing as white isn't that much harder either if you have a Sunlance, or even Mana Tithe, who cares if they spend the one mana to stop your counter, that is just one less mana they have to spend on Groundswell, Predator's Strike or Rancor. Green has about the easiest time destroying an infect deck because all they have to do is Fog and all those precious pumps just became useless. Finally black could just simply Duress the opponent and then bye bye whatever is chosen. Of course this isn't all the options that are available to counter infect, but in all honestly it isn't a hard thing to stop. Infect is inherently fragile, and has little to no mid-late game. One wrench thrown into the machine is all it takes to break it.
In terms of fixing the deck though to be without Invigorate if you so choose to could be to add Llanowar Augur to the mix, or up the count of your Groundswell's as DarthStabber suggested. You could do a four of Mutagenic Growth. I personally would most likely go the Llanowar Augur method as that gives you a health +3+3 and trample in case you miss a Rancor or it is countered.
Whether or not if the card is good or not is not in question. What Lord Seth stated was that the card was banned and should be removed, but in fact it isn't banned within the paper version of the game.
I will admit that the card is 'absurdly' good but it is actually extremely easy to counter.
In my meta as an example infect ran wild until people started slightly gearing sideboards and I do mean slightly to deal with it and then Invigorate was actually kind of useless among all the other instant pump spells; then after turn two and three were over infect lost steam and lost overall.
Pauper may not have Force of Will but a saved Dispel stops infect in its tracks. Even if you were to play red then a simple Shock let alone a Lightning Bolt shuts down a turn one Glistener Elf. Playing as white isn't that much harder either if you have a Sunlance, or even Mana Tithe, who cares if they spend the one mana to stop your counter, that is just one less mana they have to spend on Groundswell, Predator's Strike or Rancor. Green has about the easiest time destroying an infect deck because all they have to do is Fog and all those precious pumps just became useless. Finally black could just simply Duress the opponent and then bye bye whatever is chosen. Of course this isn't all the options that are available to counter infect, but in all honestly it isn't a hard thing to stop. Infect is inherently fragile, and has little to no mid-late game. One wrench thrown into the machine is all it takes to break it.
In terms of fixing the deck though to be without Invigorate if you so choose to could be to add Llanowar Augur to the mix, or up the count of your Groundswell's as DarthStabber suggested. You could do a four of Mutagenic Growth. I personally would most likely go the Llanowar Augur method as that gives you a health +3+3 and trample in case you miss a Rancor or it is countered.
My point was not that infect is unbeatable with invigorate, unbeatable is not the mark of a card being too good, warping the format is. Infect is a deck you already have to prepare for, but the consistency it gains from invigorate is bonkers if you can stack it right, requiring a lot more sideboard attention than other decks, and even with that attention most decks need a lucky card in their first 8-9 for it to make a difference. Burn obviously has no issues as half of their deck can kill anything you drop turn 1 handily, and boros kitty can do similar post board, but that's only two decks. The rest of the format has fairly limited answers to things that fast. Sunlance, vapor snag, force spike, and innocent blood are the only things I regularly see in lists. If you can hit a rancor there is likely nothing stompy, hexproof, or blue skies can do to stop the turn 2 win, and everything else has to have that answer in their opening grip.
In doing some research on some long forgotten cards for White Weenie, I decided to delve into infect in the same fashion. Here on some possible inclusions that may better the Pauper infect short game through the late game.
Flensermite - Simple infect creature with the addition of lifelink. It may prove useful in some capacity.
Marsh Viper - At four mana it may seem costly, but his effect doesn't trigger on only combat damage. If you attach something like Psionic Gift is can prove to be quite useful. If you can also attach a Freed from the Real then it is even better.
Sabertooth Cobra - Pretty cool ability as long as you plan on going the distance with infect.
Sort of... The problem I've had is that you really need to protect your creature because they are all so terrible - and you really only have a few that you can put in the deck. 2 Apostles and 4 Vines could be enough, but what would you drop in there instead?
A lot of infect decks use Gitaxian Probe, and it's not about the free cantrip. An experienced player uses the probe to it's fullest potential. It can stop you from wasting a turn and about 4 pump spells. I really think these should be in the deck in some number. I think this is the best option.
If not, then either stick with Ranger's guile or add Predator's Strike. I find the cost to be prohibitive, but the trample actually helps a lot.
Having the extra Guiles in the side is a good idea though.
Wouldn't you want a Fog in the sideboard for mirror matches?
Actually, those have been in there for a while. I pulled Rot Wolf since it was so slow, but the creature count dipping below 15 seems bad too. Maybe drop Guiles for Rot Wolf just to keep a potential body on the table.
Yes. I'm not sure if I use it more to to play non-Glistener Elfs on turn 1 or leaving Vines mana open for Bolts. In fantasy land (a place this deck does go more than it should), it also allows for very explosive turn 2s.
I would still play Blight Mamba over Rot Wolf. That regeneration is so hard to deal with when it's just handing out -1/-1 counters to everything blocking it.
Why Arcane Denial? Why not go for Mana Leak instead? I love the card, but it has very niche uses.
Tempo usually involves you playing some sort of draw engine to bury your opponent in card advantage while controlling what they play. Maybe the new Sigiled Starfish could be interesting here. Or just go for Accumulated Knowledge. Or some sort of Aura that will draw you some cards, like Snake Umbra.
Try out Mana Leak instead and see which you like best. Although leak doesn't replace itself, it doesn't net your opponent a card either.
It's more situational in that it targets less spells types. But if you draw one in the mid to late game, it has more chances of being useful than Force Spike, I think. If you're countering spells that target your creatures, than Dispel is most likely better. Daze would definitely be the way to go, or else another 2-cmc counter.
You're right, the starfish doesn't actually get you any cards, but the scry is really excellent at making each of your draws have more impact. It's practically card advantage. You see the same thing happen with Oona's Grace, a really good card.
Brainstorm doesn't give you cards, either, and can leave you stranded with your next two draws. This is why I prefer Ponder in a format without good fetchland to shuffle. Think Twice is also a really good option, but mana costs may be an issue for you.
Snake Umbra may be worth the investment. Aqueous form is not great, either.
If you compare Forced Adaptation with Rancor or Spectral Flight coming down on the same turn and the opponent at 20 life, Forced Adaptation kills a whole 3 turns earlier than any other of your options. Not to mention it puts your creatures well out of burn range within a few turns and that the counters stay if the enchantment were to be destroyed. It could also be kinda cool to use if you ran something like Steady Progress or Fuel for the Cause.
Edit: I forgot we were talking about infect damage, sorry. Laid down on the same turn, Forced Adaptation would kill as fast as any +2/+x enchantment (5 turns).
20 lands should be more than enough, but you can add Lotus Petals in there to help. Like 18/4 lands to Petals? Honestly though, I don't get what your deck is trying to do. Infect works because it comes down fast and hits hard on turn 2-3. You don't have enough creature pumps to get there. Where's Ground Swell? Where's Vines of the Vastwood? I don't get why you have 7 counters when your deck is supposed to be the aggressive deck. The way you counter your creature getting killed is either by making it big enough to dodge the fire or play another. Stuff like Briar Shield is okay since it gives a permanent bump AND a game winning smash, but Spectral Flight? Go with Apostle's Blessing if you wan unblockable. Really though, most decks shouldn't have blockers on turn 2-3 when you swing for lethal. If they do, Blight Mamba (should be a 4 of) and Ichorclaw go nose to nose with almost anything.
It might be more tempo, but it's drifted so far away from Infect that it doesn't look like it will work anymore. Basically, do you want to go for a 1 turn kill or do you want to grind it out.
Then you need to go with bigger more resilient creatures and focus on bouncing/countering. Black seems to have the best midrange Infect creatures, but in UG you have:
Has anyone had success with RG infect? This list is geared towards the mythical turn 1 win, with turn 2 wins being the goal. But it might be over-strained to the point of breaking. I know that there seem to be too few lands and creatures, but the number of cantrips helps a lot with that. What do you guys think?
I don't like it. I don't think assault strobe or reckless charge make up for losing invigorate, and since you are not running any red creatures there is no other reason I can see to run this. I was dabbling with mono-black because I think Midnight Covenant is a great way to get more than 2 turns of boost, and makes topdecking dark ritual worth it, but that deck has a lot of the same problems as yours. Green has so much more to offer than anything else.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
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Whether or not if the card is good or not is not in question. What Lord Seth stated was that the card was banned and should be removed, but in fact it isn't banned within the paper version of the game.
I will admit that the card is 'absurdly' good but it is actually extremely easy to counter.
In my meta as an example infect ran wild until people started slightly gearing sideboards and I do mean slightly to deal with it and then Invigorate was actually kind of useless among all the other instant pump spells; then after turn two and three were over infect lost steam and lost overall.
Pauper may not have Force of Will but a saved Dispel stops infect in its tracks. Even if you were to play red then a simple Shock let alone a Lightning Bolt shuts down a turn one Glistener Elf. Playing as white isn't that much harder either if you have a Sunlance, or even Mana Tithe, who cares if they spend the one mana to stop your counter, that is just one less mana they have to spend on Groundswell, Predator's Strike or Rancor. Green has about the easiest time destroying an infect deck because all they have to do is Fog and all those precious pumps just became useless. Finally black could just simply Duress the opponent and then bye bye whatever is chosen. Of course this isn't all the options that are available to counter infect, but in all honestly it isn't a hard thing to stop. Infect is inherently fragile, and has little to no mid-late game. One wrench thrown into the machine is all it takes to break it.
In terms of fixing the deck though to be without Invigorate if you so choose to could be to add Llanowar Augur to the mix, or up the count of your Groundswell's as DarthStabber suggested. You could do a four of Mutagenic Growth. I personally would most likely go the Llanowar Augur method as that gives you a health +3+3 and trample in case you miss a Rancor or it is countered.
W White Weenie
My point was not that infect is unbeatable with invigorate, unbeatable is not the mark of a card being too good, warping the format is. Infect is a deck you already have to prepare for, but the consistency it gains from invigorate is bonkers if you can stack it right, requiring a lot more sideboard attention than other decks, and even with that attention most decks need a lucky card in their first 8-9 for it to make a difference. Burn obviously has no issues as half of their deck can kill anything you drop turn 1 handily, and boros kitty can do similar post board, but that's only two decks. The rest of the format has fairly limited answers to things that fast. Sunlance, vapor snag, force spike, and innocent blood are the only things I regularly see in lists. If you can hit a rancor there is likely nothing stompy, hexproof, or blue skies can do to stop the turn 2 win, and everything else has to have that answer in their opening grip.
Flensermite - Simple infect creature with the addition of lifelink. It may prove useful in some capacity.
Marsh Viper - At four mana it may seem costly, but his effect doesn't trigger on only combat damage. If you attach something like Psionic Gift is can prove to be quite useful. If you can also attach a Freed from the Real then it is even better.
Sabertooth Cobra - Pretty cool ability as long as you plan on going the distance with infect.
Tainted Strike - A pretty solid surprise card if you can pump and lay waste with a Tormented Soul.
W White Weenie
16 Forest
Creatures - 16
4 Blight Mamba
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Rot Wolf
Non-Permanent Spells - 28
2 Apostle's Blessing
4 Groundswell
4 Invigorate
4 Land Grant
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Rancor
2 Ranger's Guile
4 Vines of the Vastwood
4 Hornet Sting
4 Nature's Claim
2 Predator's Strike
2 Ranger's Guile
3 Sandstorm
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
If not, then either stick with Ranger's guile or add Predator's Strike. I find the cost to be prohibitive, but the trample actually helps a lot.
Having the extra Guiles in the side is a good idea though.
Wouldn't you want a Fog in the sideboard for mirror matches?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Could you post up the updated list? The one you posted before has no probes.
How about -2 Guile, +1 Blessing, +1 Probe?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
16 Forest
Creatures - 15
4 Blight Mamba
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
3 Rot Wolf
Other Spells - 29
1 Apostle's Blessing
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Groundswell
4 Invigorate
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Rancor
4 Vines of the Vastwood
1 Apostle's Blessing
3 Fog
3 Hornet Sting
3 Llanowar Augeur
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ranger's Guile
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Does it improve your turn 2 kills?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Why Arcane Denial? Why not go for Mana Leak instead? I love the card, but it has very niche uses.
Force Spike could maybe be Dispel?
Tempo usually involves you playing some sort of draw engine to bury your opponent in card advantage while controlling what they play. Maybe the new Sigiled Starfish could be interesting here. Or just go for Accumulated Knowledge. Or some sort of Aura that will draw you some cards, like Snake Umbra.
You could actually go for something like Forced Adaptation.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
It's more situational in that it targets less spells types. But if you draw one in the mid to late game, it has more chances of being useful than Force Spike, I think. If you're countering spells that target your creatures, than Dispel is most likely better. Daze would definitely be the way to go, or else another 2-cmc counter.
You're right, the starfish doesn't actually get you any cards, but the scry is really excellent at making each of your draws have more impact. It's practically card advantage. You see the same thing happen with Oona's Grace, a really good card.
Brainstorm doesn't give you cards, either, and can leave you stranded with your next two draws. This is why I prefer Ponder in a format without good fetchland to shuffle. Think Twice is also a really good option, but mana costs may be an issue for you.
Snake Umbra may be worth the investment. Aqueous form is not great, either.
If you compare Forced Adaptation with Rancor or Spectral Flight coming down on the same turn and the opponent at 20 life, Forced Adaptation kills a whole 3 turns earlier than any other of your options. Not to mention it puts your creatures well out of burn range within a few turns and that the counters stay if the enchantment were to be destroyed. It could also be kinda cool to use if you ran something like Steady Progress or Fuel for the Cause.
Edit: I forgot we were talking about infect damage, sorry. Laid down on the same turn, Forced Adaptation would kill as fast as any +2/+x enchantment (5 turns).
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/magic-online-general/pauper/189518-u-g-tempo
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
My monogreen deck looks like this (I kept in Invigorage because I play paper):
16 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
Creatures (12)
4 Glistener Elf
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Groundswell
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Vines of Vastwood
Inkmoth Nexus is a Rare and Necropede is Uncommon.
4x glistener elf
4x ichorclaw myr
1x blight mamba
Buff Spells
4x rancor
4x mutagenic growth
3x giant growth
4x reckless charge
3x assault strobe
4x lotus petal
2x simian spirit guide
4x gitaxian probe
4x manamorphose
4x street wraith
6x forest
4x mountain
4x hickory woodlot
1x terramorphic expanse
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post