Obsessive Search is just plain bad, and only used as discard fodder. If you need Search I would look into running more Deep Analysis, since for 1 more you get to draw two cards instead of just one.
Natural State is a pretty good SB card we can use over Nature's Claim against both Boggles and Affinity, as the 4 life actually hurts us a lot. I think the SB would need to be tailored against the big 6: Esper Combo, Izzet, Delver, Affinity, Kuldotha Boros / Jeskai and MBC. Some of the cards used for them also hurt other matchups as splash damage, so overall we should have a pretty solid gameplan. This is my list right now:
The Dispel are there as a concession to the Dimir Teachings deck that appears to be climbing the ranks in the online Leagues. I haven't experienced a problem with Werebear being a 4/4 on time when I need it, the only thing I miss is its lack of evasion against something like WW tokens, but the upsides against Hooting Mandrills (helping with the mana early so we can cut lands, not having problems chaining multiples, not so conflictive with Logic) more than outweight that, and I'm willing to sacrifice a few percentage points against such a fringe matchup if this means my deck runs better and smoother against top decks.
@Pvt_Dude There's no such thing as a Wonder replacement (it would certainly propel the deck to tier 1 status), and Zephyr Charge is super pricy. The closest thing is Defy Gravity, but at that point you're better off running Artful Dodge unless you're planning to ambush flying guys.
Hydroblast is used against Burn, Izzet midrange/control and Izzet Blitz, and to a lesser extent, Kuldotha Boros / Jeskai. About Natural State not killing Spire Golem, I didn't bring Gleeful Sabotage (which is the card I ran before) against Blue decks anyways, so it's good.
Esper Combo is the Cloud of Faeries, Mnemonic Wall and Ghostly Flicker combo for infinite mana and is quite the deck to beat at the moment alongside Delver and MBC. The meta isn't as fast as you think it is, and since we take the beatdown role with 4/4's, the lifeloss doesn't matter anyway because early pressure and counterspells force the other player into defense mode pretty quick.
Dispel is also a great card in the current meta: I'd run it maindeck if it wasn't soft against our worst matchup: MBC
What do you think about Elemental Uprising? It's as close to a green Edict as it can get: forcing the lone guy to block or ambushing an attacker, and it also deals 4 damage to a player if the coast is clear or he's light on creatures. It's also difficult to 2-for-1 it which minimizes blowouts: you can't respond to it because instant speed land removal is nonexistant, and after it's cast only hardcore removal like Doom Blade or Victim of Night will do the trick. Even if the land gets killed, I prefer losing a land than losing a Wurm or a Mongrel.
Yeah pretty much the same about Elemental Uprising. I'm testing a 2/2 split right now with Vapor Snag and it seems all good and fine. Time will tell if I completely replace Snag with Uprising. It's also good against MBC to sneak in some points of damage, and it's also good if you're flooding and want a bit more use other than "I discard this land to pump Mongrel".
The problem is that at the moment we run 0 creature pumps other than occasional pitching of one's entire hand to a Wild Mongrel (this has ended more games on my favor than I'd like to admit), point being: this deck's creatures could probably use outside help. There's little we can do about a 4/5. Vines of Vastwood was my prime guess, but it doesn't protect against MBC's edicts. Opinions?
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Violence isn't the answer, it's the question. The answer's "yes"
You tested aggains MBC? thats surprising I would expect this card not be great vs MBC. In my experience MBC tends to have multiple creatures out, and generaly is not attacking which I think is the worst setting for Elemental Uprising. Further they run instand speed removal and not to forget they run Gurmag Angler which makes uprising all but dead. Bouncing an angler is ussually a nice play, as they tend to empty their graveyard to play it. However some of their other creatures are horible to bounce, so maybe your right and a 2/2 split is nice in the machup. Im also thinking that in a list with werebears oposed to mandrills its slighlty more beneficial to clear a blocker out of the way, making uprising somewhat better. Btw I think its possible to animate a land and then return it to your hand with daze as protection if that situation would ever come up, would be a cool play though.
I used them more as a Burn spell to give me some reach, especially when they tap out for a Tendrils of Corruption or Gray Merchant of Asphodel or they clear the table with Crypt Rats. If they use a removal spell on the land, then that's a net positive for us because we can run on 3 lands only, so I'd rather lose an excess land than an actual beater, and we're actually able to maintain the tempo this way. The Daze trick is also good if you have a target. If not, you can always force a creature to block it then bounce the land in response to the kill spell.
The problem is that at the moment we run 0 creature pumps other than occasional pitching of one's entire hand to a Wild Mongrel (this has ended more games on my favor than I'd like to admit), point being: this deck's creatures could probably use outside help. There's little we can do about a 4/5. Vines of Vastwood was my prime guess, but it doesn't protect against MBC's edicts. Opinions?
The use of pumps puts us more firmly in Stompy territory, though. Although Vines is certainly a fair card both as protection and "burn", you'd have to cut some counters or removal to let it fit, but it's something I could get behind. Against a 4/5 you either go wide, bounce it, or try to counter it before it sticks.
If only there were overrun effects at common, we could very easily maintain U/G as an aggro-control/tempo deck while gaining some inevitability. I know of Inspired Charge but white splash is not a good idea in this format.
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Violence isn't the answer, it's the question. The answer's "yes"
Sample list with rancor. It's still firmly on tempo territory, what with 10 counters and all. I won't be able to test this, can someone do the favor if possible?
Basically what Vuurbal said, Brainstorm requires 8+ shuffle outlets to be good, that's the reason the card is not that busted in Pauper. I don't like Ninja of the Deep Hours: despite the synergy it might have with Rootwalla, it doesn't pressure much and trades with pretty much everything, on top of having a steep casting cost if you can't pay Ninjutsu.
What do you guys think of some copies of Essence Scatter in the mainboard? It's basically a removal spell that stays relevant throughout the game.
Elemental uprising is interesting, but I can't see any spots it would take other than Vapor Snag. And Vapor Snag is really our only defense against Gurmag Angler. Especially since its not hard to play Angler around Mana Leak and Daze on the first cast. I just don't think its good enough to warrant a deck slot, and there really aren't any matchups where you would want to board it in over snag. I'll try some testing on it though.
More counter spells would be nice. I wouldn't add more than 1-2 Essence Scatter's though. Maybe cut one snag for one scatter.
It basically feels like an overcosted Edict on Green for when the opponent leaves back a utility creature, with a "burn spell" mode attached to it that deals 4 if the coast is clear. It's been ok so far, although I suppose I could go back to Vapor Snag. We really need a cheap removal spell better than Pit Fight...
I agree entirely with running Essence Scatter maindeck, it's probably better than Mana Leak since we have no creature control in U/G. As for removal spells, most of our dudes trade with absolutely everything so I don't think it's a good idea to use fight-based cards. What about 2 or 3 of Temporal Spring as a general problem-solver?
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Violence isn't the answer, it's the question. The answer's "yes"
I've used Rushing River before, but overall I wasn't happy with the cost + potential setback of sacrificing a land. We run few lands, and need 3-4 mana to operate at full strength, so sacrificing one just to bounce two guys seems counterproductive. Temporal Spring is also too slow at 3 and sorcery speed.
I noticed the guy in the video was playing Gathan Raiders, something that I've overlooked. It's 3 CMC + a discard outlet, and when hellbent it can compete with other 5/5's of the format. Is it worth making some slots for it?
Gush seems also interesting because it can bounce back two lands when flooded to discard, or even produce mana if you haven't played lands that turn, but it competes with Deep Analysis. It can certainly be a very potent engine though.
I've used Rushing River before, but overall I wasn't happy with the cost + potential setback of sacrificing a land. We run few lands, and need 3-4 mana to operate at full strength, so sacrificing one just to bounce two guys seems counterproductive. Temporal Spring is also too slow at 3 and sorcery speed.
I noticed the guy in the video was playing Gathan Raiders, something that I've overlooked. It's 3 CMC + a discard outlet, and when hellbent it can compete with other 5/5's of the format. Is it worth making some slots for it?
Gush seems also interesting because it can bounce back two lands when flooded to discard, or even produce mana if you haven't played lands that turn, but it competes with Deep Analysis. It can certainly be a very potent engine though.
Gathan raiders is a fascinating card. My biggest question is if you can respond to paying the morph cost before it actually morphs, and use it to discard your hand. If so it maybe the long hidden secret to midrange decks.
Morph is not an activated ability, apparently. Gathan Raiders still seems okay as a 1-2 of.
I've used Rushing River before, but overall I wasn't happy with the cost + potential setback of sacrificing a land. We run few lands, and need 3-4 mana to operate at full strength, so sacrificing one just to bounce two guys seems counterproductive. Temporal Spring is also too slow at 3 and sorcery speed.
I noticed the guy in the video was playing Gathan Raiders, something that I've overlooked. It's 3 CMC + a discard outlet, and when hellbent it can compete with other 5/5's of the format. Is it worth making some slots for it?
Gush seems also interesting because it can bounce back two lands when flooded to discard, or even produce mana if you haven't played lands that turn, but it competes with Deep Analysis. It can certainly be a very potent engine though.
I mean, Rushing River is very similar to Gush in the sense that it works better when you're flooded with mana. The kicker is basically free once you hit your third land, though - Gush's alternate cost never really stops being steep. 2U is nowhere as much as it seems, if anything the meta is slower than ever since the Cloud of Faeries ban. If it where a double unsummon maybe, but this also gets rid of any troublesome nonlands: Dead Weight, Springleaf Drum or any of Boros's equipments.
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Violence isn't the answer, it's the question. The answer's "yes"
I just feel the 3 mana is still too slow for the deck. We need to hold off fast decks in the first couple of turns, because once things hit their stride with this deck then we can easily hold off aggro natch ups. Æther Burst would be great, but it isn't as effective with Mandrills. I personally like having Withdraw, even thought it has the double U. Most aggro decks tap out in first main to drop their hand so Withdraw is pretty easy to use. It can also be used to save one of your own creatures as well if you use it as the second target!
Thanks Vuurbal for taking your time to post all those lists! I see there are a lot of ways to build Madness and there's no consensus yet however people seem to agree that the core is a playset of all three Madness cards (Arrogant Wurm, Basking Rootwalla and Circular Logic) and Wild Mongrel, alongside some mix and match of other Madness outlets. Although Aquamoeba is quite fragile and the discard ability is more likely to make it die, it's my choice for the secondary outlet since it's free, can be used as many times as you wish, and isn't affected by summoning sickness like Merfolk Looter or Fa'adiyah Seer. However, I'm not oppossed to running something along the lines of 3-4 Aquamoeba and 2 Merfolk Looter for card draw.
Gush and Deep Analysis are almost always seen at least as a 2-of, so I think we should need to start testing with Gush, because as you said, it got banned in Legacy for its interaction with Wild Mongrel (although there were other things, like using it to generate more mana in a turn you didn't use a land drop).
Hooting Mandrills seems to be the fatty of choice in the newest lists, although never as a full playset. Gathan Riders is kind of counterproductive with the draw spells, but I tested them as a 2-of and they were OK. Lotus Petal is also a card I saw in some lists: I played the card before and a turn 1 Madness outlet was a pretty huge tempo swing when happened, especially if you have Daze backup. Finally, it seems that Vapor Snag is the bounce spell of choice over Æther Burst, although there were some decks trying to make it work.
My question now is the following: can we realistically splash Red without hurting our Tempo? Lightning Axe seems like a really sick card to play, killing every Pauper creature ever played except the fringe Eldrazi and Hexproof creatures, and coupled with Lightning Bolt it could give us tremendous firepower if we can maintain our average speed.
Now, looking at this like this, a red splash would be a very very profitable ordeal - Getting rid of Gurmag Angler for R and a chance to get an Arrogant Wurm or Basking Rootwalla out is way too good to pass. However, this being pauper I cannot imagine how a red splash would take part without sacrificing a lot of speed to Evolving Wilds-esque stuff, I don't think a deck with linear creature wincon could ever run 3 colors.
EDIT: Why don't we try Crumbling Vestige or Manamorphose? It's temporary manafixing, yep, but it's the best we're getting without literally taking a dump on the mana base.
I don't like the idea of having a zero-impact card (Manamorphose) in a deck like this. We could however swap from fetchlands to Thornwood Falls and Swiftwater Cliffs to support the splash. Crumbling Vestige could maintain the tempo but it seems risky in a three color deck, although maybe it could replace Quicksand. It would basically boil down to the manabase working without Fetches and Hooting Mandrills and Circular Logic staying well-fed after taking out the Wilds.
Here's my attempt - I had quite a bit of trouble deciding what burns should be used. Fiery Temper lets us get more madness triggers but isn't as stable as Lightning Bolt. Lightning Axe counts as both an enabler and soft, maindeckable hate versus Gurmag Angler, so I believe 2 on the main and two more on the side is ideal.
The graveyard will remain well-fed with all these burns/bounces/counterspells, I don't think that's an issue at all.
I still haven't tested this, but I believe that it'll work. Daze is no longer effective, we're trading counterspells and speed for reach and creature control, which UG has traditionally lacked. Overall, sounds promising - Does red bring any good cards out of the sideboard for us?
Another red build ranked nr 4 at the 121 people milan tournament! (http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-pauper/2624-pauper-top-16-paupergeddon-milano.html) Only one madness deck entered the tournament and it ended up top 4.... Madness really is stronger than what people give it credit for right now. The build is quite diferent from anything ive seen before though, 12 faties + 4 dredgers, coupled with some burn. Well guess we'll never know the thoughts of the designer of the deck.
Anyway It looks like a RG version of madness is quite viable, however I dont think a UGr Version is gonna do it, as three collors will slow us down more than it will benefit the deck with the curent lands availabe in pauper. A manabase with 10 tap lands like above can work, but 10 taplands.........
One of the strenghts of the deck I believe is the speed, and for this reason its either a RG build or a UG build, and I personally like UG as it gives the deck some control and I have positive results with it. I might look into an RG build in the future as it does show up with some results and looks quite interseting.
BTW Pvt_Dude, I see you mention the bolts but dont include them in the list? I think if you splash red its probalby corect to dump the vapor snaggs and add some bolts.
Edit: You guys think its possible to make a madness primer? or are the diferences in the lists to large/did the deck not achief enough results yet?
God damnit, how did I miss that? I'll make sure to swap the snags for bolts, thanks.
I've never really thought of an R/G build, but maybe it could work - and it's about damn time we get a primer. I could make it, if no one else wants to?
The lack of Circular Logic as what's basically a hard counterspell for U makes me a bit skeptical, frankly.
I've wanted to make a Primer since I started playing the deck, but I refused to because Arrogant Wurm and Circular Logic are online only, although a case could be made with the Mods. However, I think we're better off waiting until SOI hits the shelves to see what it has for us and to test and tweak the deck a bit.
Care posting the Stitched Drake list? I play something between 20-22 creatures and I don't usually plan on them dying, since my game plan is to protect until they get the job done, so I don't know if I could support Drakes. They're 3 CMC at sorcery speed though...
Feed the Clan has performed marvelous for me. Burn is a somewhat soft matchup, and Feed the Clan equates to card advantage here by negating various of their spells. If we manage to hit Ferocious with baboons / bears, a big enough Mongrel or Wurms, they usually concede on the spot.
Also Vuurbal wouldn't you prefer Careful Study instead of Mental Note? It's a Madness outlet after all, and if you want it exclusively for feeding the Mandrills you at least have some control of what you want to bin.
Natural State is a pretty good SB card we can use over Nature's Claim against both Boggles and Affinity, as the 4 life actually hurts us a lot. I think the SB would need to be tailored against the big 6: Esper Combo, Izzet, Delver, Affinity, Kuldotha Boros / Jeskai and MBC. Some of the cards used for them also hurt other matchups as splash damage, so overall we should have a pretty solid gameplan. This is my list right now:
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Werebear
4 Aquamoeba
Instant (14)
4 Circular Logic
4 Vapor Snag
3 Daze
3 Mana Leak
4 Ponder
3 Deep Analysis
Land (19)
2 Quicksand
4 Evolving Wilds
6 Forest
7 Island
4 Hydroblast
3 Aerial Volley
3 Stormbound Geist
3 Natural State
2 Dispel
The Dispel are there as a concession to the Dimir Teachings deck that appears to be climbing the ranks in the online Leagues. I haven't experienced a problem with Werebear being a 4/4 on time when I need it, the only thing I miss is its lack of evasion against something like WW tokens, but the upsides against Hooting Mandrills (helping with the mana early so we can cut lands, not having problems chaining multiples, not so conflictive with Logic) more than outweight that, and I'm willing to sacrifice a few percentage points against such a fringe matchup if this means my deck runs better and smoother against top decks.
@Pvt_Dude There's no such thing as a Wonder replacement (it would certainly propel the deck to tier 1 status), and Zephyr Charge is super pricy. The closest thing is Defy Gravity, but at that point you're better off running Artful Dodge unless you're planning to ambush flying guys.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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Esper Combo is the Cloud of Faeries, Mnemonic Wall and Ghostly Flicker combo for infinite mana and is quite the deck to beat at the moment alongside Delver and MBC. The meta isn't as fast as you think it is, and since we take the beatdown role with 4/4's, the lifeloss doesn't matter anyway because early pressure and counterspells force the other player into defense mode pretty quick.
Dispel is also a great card in the current meta: I'd run it maindeck if it wasn't soft against our worst matchup: MBC
What do you think about Elemental Uprising? It's as close to a green Edict as it can get: forcing the lone guy to block or ambushing an attacker, and it also deals 4 damage to a player if the coast is clear or he's light on creatures. It's also difficult to 2-for-1 it which minimizes blowouts: you can't respond to it because instant speed land removal is nonexistant, and after it's cast only hardcore removal like Doom Blade or Victim of Night will do the trick. Even if the land gets killed, I prefer losing a land than losing a Wurm or a Mongrel.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I used them more as a Burn spell to give me some reach, especially when they tap out for a Tendrils of Corruption or Gray Merchant of Asphodel or they clear the table with Crypt Rats. If they use a removal spell on the land, then that's a net positive for us because we can run on 3 lands only, so I'd rather lose an excess land than an actual beater, and we're actually able to maintain the tempo this way. The Daze trick is also good if you have a target. If not, you can always force a creature to block it then bounce the land in response to the kill spell.
The use of pumps puts us more firmly in Stompy territory, though. Although Vines is certainly a fair card both as protection and "burn", you'd have to cut some counters or removal to let it fit, but it's something I could get behind. Against a 4/5 you either go wide, bounce it, or try to counter it before it sticks.
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7 Island
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Quicksand
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Aquamoeba
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Vapor Snag
3 Deep Analysis
3 Rancor
Sample list with rancor. It's still firmly on tempo territory, what with 10 counters and all. I won't be able to test this, can someone do the favor if possible?
What do you think about Brainstorm instead Ponder for Terramorphic Expanse sinergy and Ninja of the Deep Hours instead Deep Analysis for sinergy with Basking Rootwalla
What do you guys think of some copies of Essence Scatter in the mainboard? It's basically a removal spell that stays relevant throughout the game.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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More counter spells would be nice. I wouldn't add more than 1-2 Essence Scatter's though. Maybe cut one snag for one scatter.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I noticed the guy in the video was playing Gathan Raiders, something that I've overlooked. It's 3 CMC + a discard outlet, and when hellbent it can compete with other 5/5's of the format. Is it worth making some slots for it?
Gush seems also interesting because it can bounce back two lands when flooded to discard, or even produce mana if you haven't played lands that turn, but it competes with Deep Analysis. It can certainly be a very potent engine though.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Gathan raiders is a fascinating card. My biggest question is if you can respond to paying the morph cost before it actually morphs, and use it to discard your hand. If so it maybe the long hidden secret to midrange decks.
Morph is not an activated ability, apparently. Gathan Raiders still seems okay as a 1-2 of.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I mean, Rushing River is very similar to Gush in the sense that it works better when you're flooded with mana. The kicker is basically free once you hit your third land, though - Gush's alternate cost never really stops being steep. 2U is nowhere as much as it seems, if anything the meta is slower than ever since the Cloud of Faeries ban. If it where a double unsummon maybe, but this also gets rid of any troublesome nonlands: Dead Weight, Springleaf Drum or any of Boros's equipments.
Gush and Deep Analysis are almost always seen at least as a 2-of, so I think we should need to start testing with Gush, because as you said, it got banned in Legacy for its interaction with Wild Mongrel (although there were other things, like using it to generate more mana in a turn you didn't use a land drop).
Hooting Mandrills seems to be the fatty of choice in the newest lists, although never as a full playset. Gathan Riders is kind of counterproductive with the draw spells, but I tested them as a 2-of and they were OK. Lotus Petal is also a card I saw in some lists: I played the card before and a turn 1 Madness outlet was a pretty huge tempo swing when happened, especially if you have Daze backup. Finally, it seems that Vapor Snag is the bounce spell of choice over Æther Burst, although there were some decks trying to make it work.
My question now is the following: can we realistically splash Red without hurting our Tempo? Lightning Axe seems like a really sick card to play, killing every Pauper creature ever played except the fringe Eldrazi and Hexproof creatures, and coupled with Lightning Bolt it could give us tremendous firepower if we can maintain our average speed.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
EDIT: Why don't we try Crumbling Vestige or Manamorphose? It's temporary manafixing, yep, but it's the best we're getting without literally taking a dump on the mana base.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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The graveyard will remain well-fed with all these burns/bounces/counterspells, I don't think that's an issue at all.
4 Thornwood Falls
2 Swiftwater Cliffs
2 Rugged Highlands
2 Crumbling Vestige
2 Mountain
4 Island
4 Forest
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Hooting Mandrills
Spells:
4 Fiery Temper
4 Circular Logic
2 Lightning Axe
2 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Deep Analysis
2 Ponder
I still haven't tested this, but I believe that it'll work. Daze is no longer effective, we're trading counterspells and speed for reach and creature control, which UG has traditionally lacked. Overall, sounds promising - Does red bring any good cards out of the sideboard for us?
God damnit, how did I miss that? I'll make sure to swap the snags for bolts, thanks.
I've never really thought of an R/G build, but maybe it could work - and it's about damn time we get a primer. I could make it, if no one else wants to?
The lack of Circular Logic as what's basically a hard counterspell for U makes me a bit skeptical, frankly.
Care posting the Stitched Drake list? I play something between 20-22 creatures and I don't usually plan on them dying, since my game plan is to protect until they get the job done, so I don't know if I could support Drakes. They're 3 CMC at sorcery speed though...
Feed the Clan has performed marvelous for me. Burn is a somewhat soft matchup, and Feed the Clan equates to card advantage here by negating various of their spells. If we manage to hit Ferocious with baboons / bears, a big enough Mongrel or Wurms, they usually concede on the spot.
Also Vuurbal wouldn't you prefer Careful Study instead of Mental Note? It's a Madness outlet after all, and if you want it exclusively for feeding the Mandrills you at least have some control of what you want to bin.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!